The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

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kiwigreg369
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Just to put in my 2 cents - reds and removing player for dangerous play as we are seeing I support. The guide lines for mitigation are positive and help deal with items like slipping into the tackle etc.

——

Now - onto solutions - I think for the main issue (tackling high) and the secondary issue (punch ability of the Welsh). As previously raised...

We put a red band - 5-10 cms (agree standard) on every shirt - red - at the join of the under arm / side seam. Line a Starts there and goes lower (roughly the nipple down). You tackle higher it’s a free kick / penalty / card (depending on location). It means the game is no longer one of millimetres- its +10 cm to the neck / +20 to the jaw etc..

As the Welsh wear red there is no tackle height for the Welsh.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Fat Old Git »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:25 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:21 am
C69 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:52 am Most of the more dangerouos tackles on the air have been taken out of the game now after strong restrictions

World Rugby have to act and stop idiots flying in and making contact witj the head.
If you get a red then tough.
I think not the tackling a player in the air is a lot easier for players to adjust to as there are less variables. And entering a ruck safety should be similar for the same reason. And the adjustments needed shouldn't have any significant impact on the nature of the game.

General tackles are much more difficult though due to the number of variables. Yes, have some have said to could aim lower than the chest to lower the risk of an accidental head knock, but in doing so you are essentially giving the player with the ball a free pass to offload. So it will potentially have quite a significant impact on the nature of the game.
There is no reason for a player to torpedo into a ruck though with the arms in chicken wings. It never really happens in age groups, where kids mostly stand over the ruck to wrestle people back, it's something that coaches install into players.
I agree, as per my bolded part above.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by eldanielfire »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:57 am
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:25 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:21 am
C69 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:52 am Most of the more dangerouos tackles on the air have been taken out of the game now after strong restrictions

World Rugby have to act and stop idiots flying in and making contact witj the head.
If you get a red then tough.
I think not the tackling a player in the air is a lot easier for players to adjust to as there are less variables. And entering a ruck safety should be similar for the same reason. And the adjustments needed shouldn't have any significant impact on the nature of the game.

General tackles are much more difficult though due to the number of variables. Yes, have some have said to could aim lower than the chest to lower the risk of an accidental head knock, but in doing so you are essentially giving the player with the ball a free pass to offload. So it will potentially have quite a significant impact on the nature of the game.
There is no reason for a player to torpedo into a ruck though with the arms in chicken wings. It never really happens in age groups, where kids mostly stand over the ruck to wrestle people back, it's something that coaches install into players.
I agree, as per my bolded part above.
Ah but my point is it isn't as difficult to adjust as you suggest. The ruck actions now are coached, not natural, therefore resorting to the default is easy. It's for players to decide if they want to play on the edge there.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Fat Old Git »

It's only tackles in general play I'm suggesting are difficult. And mainly because the changes needed to significantly reduce the risk of contact with the head are likely to need a change in tactics around how the game is played in addition to a change in tackling technique.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by DOB »

Changes in technique, tactics, skills, strategy, etc etc happen all the time as the game, laws, physical athleticism of the players, strength and weakness of teams, culture etc etc all change constantly.

If the laws as they stand make players more careful entering rucks, and punish careless actions that impact players’ heads, they should remain as they are.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by terangi48 »

"If the laws as they stand make players more careful entering rucks, and punish careless actions that impact players’ heads, they should remain as they are."

Hear hear....... :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by JamesJames »

Policing the high, ball dislodging clatter tackle and torpedo ruck entry will make a huge difference to head safety I think. King hit high tackling was not always the norm in rugby. It's definitely a pro era thing. Lowering tackles makes offloads more possible and by extension result on a more free flowing game.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Sensible Stephen »

Reds for accidental head high tackles are very harsh. Someone lining up a chest or sometimes even lower tackle have been carded after the attacker slipped or lowered their heads making it a head high. That shouldn't be a red, if a player trips over, even tackling an knee height can result in head contact.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Jeff the Bear »

Lemoentjie wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:10 am
Jeff the Bear wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:48 pm This is the answer. It's going to take a large shift in the mental space of some rugby players. In the nascent stages of professionalism, there was this call that you had to do whatever was necessary to win, whatever was necessary to win/maintain the ball.

The obvious question arises from those that don't want to see change..."What is Zander Fagerson supposed to do to remove the player in that situation?", and the uncomfortable answer is "nothing". If you have to fly in like that to attempt to remove a player on the ball, then you had already lost the ball. Your systems, somewhere, have failed long before you needed to enter the ruck like that, and you've just got to take the loss of ball on the chin and start again in defence.
Great post :thumbup:
Funnily enough, I re-watched the game on iPlayer (watched it first time on foreign feed), and lo and behold, both Warburton and John Barclay were asking the same facile question "What's he supposed to do?"
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Gwenno »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:56 am Just to put in my 2 cents - reds and removing player for dangerous play as we are seeing I support. The guide lines for mitigation are positive and help deal with items like slipping into the tackle etc.

——

Now - onto solutions - I think for the main issue (tackling high) and the secondary issue (punch ability of the Welsh). As previously raised...

We put a red band - 5-10 cms (agree standard) on every shirt - red - at the join of the under arm / side seam. Line a Starts there and goes lower (roughly the nipple down). You tackle higher it’s a free kick / penalty / card (depending on location). It means the game is no longer one of millimetres- its +10 cm to the neck / +20 to the jaw etc..

As the Welsh wear red there is no tackle height for the Welsh.
🤣
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Edinburgh01 »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:22 am
Edinburgh01 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:23 pm Red carded player off for 10 same as a yellow.

Red carded player cannot come back on and must be substituted.

Automatic points deduction for the red carded player's team. The points deduction needs to be enough of a deterrent but not insuperable so the carded player's team still go for the result.

There is a clear and consistent penalty for red card offences, and the game stays at 15 v 15 so is not spoilt as a spectacle.
This is the bit I call a bit of a fallacy. None of the recent red cards have spoilt the spectacle at all. Scotland v Wales was a great game of test rugby that swayed in both teams favours and went all the way to a nail biting ending.

Red card may have advantaged Wales but it certainly didn't ruin any spectacle. The fcat is if a team don't want red cards don't play players who are likely to get them. Rugby is a team game, if one player breaks rules who a violent action then the team should suffer. The red card systems does appear to work, as C69 points out there are far fewer tackles in the air now. Apply the rules, have firm sanctions for the player and the team and it gets filtered out.
People remember the games where the red cards appeared to make little difference and use them as justification. There are plenty where it ended the game as a competition, but these get forgotten when these claims are made. When a red card occurs also has a variable impact on the game.

I am still arguing that teams should suffer for red cards. But I am also trying to suggest that impact should be more consistent. Whether you agree or disagree on the spectacle being spoilt a more consistent impact is surely desirable.

The above suggestion means that teams will suffer from the actions of an individual, the sanction will be higher than it is for a yellow card, and will be more consistent. Currently a red card in the 10th minute has a far greater impact than one in the 70th. This way the level of sanction is the same regardless of when it occurs.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by eldanielfire »

Edinburgh01 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:22 am

People remember the games where the red cards appeared to make little difference and use them as justification. There are plenty where it ended the game as a competition, but these get forgotten when these claims are made. When a red card occurs also has a variable impact on the game.
It's a situation that is occurring in fewer and fewer games. Broadly it only results in a lack of competition with weaker teams
I am still arguing that teams should suffer for red cards. But I am also trying to suggest that impact should be more consistent. Whether you agree or disagree on the spectacle being spoilt a more consistent impact is surely desirable.

The above suggestion means that teams will suffer from the actions of an individual, the sanction will be higher than it is for a yellow card, and will be more consistent. Currently a red card in the 10th minute has a far greater impact than one in the 70th. This way the level of sanction is the same regardless of when it occurs.
The same could be said of a cynical yellow in the 78th minute vs any before that. Personally if a player gets a red early in the game there is an mental issue early on there that suggests something wrong from the start. I don't think you can make it perfect. The best you could do is ensure the ban registers how long the team player with fewer players to compensate.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Edinburgh01 »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:56 am
It's a situation that is occurring in fewer and fewer games. Broadly it only results in a lack of competition with weaker teams
So that's fine, let's tip the balance even more in favour of the strong team.

A weaker team playing a strong team 15 v 15 can often at least make a game of it, whereas 14 v15 turns into a rout. Why is that better than keeping it 15v15 for most of the game so it remains a decent game, whilst still ensuring appropriate additional sanction is applied to the transgressing team?

As for your yellow card suggestion, you are making my point.

Currently there is far more variability in the impact of a red card on the game than a yellow. A yellow in minute one affects the game for 10 mins, in minute 79 for one. A red card in minute one affects the game for 79 minutes, after minute 70 it may as well be a yellow.

By applying the same similar loss of player sanction to a yellow card and a red the variation is not eliminated, but at least made equal between the cards. A set points penalty that applies in addition whenever the red card occurs means teams suffer the same additional sanction for a red over a yellow whenever it occurs.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Saturnine »

Edinburgh01 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:00 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:56 am
It's a situation that is occurring in fewer and fewer games. Broadly it only results in a lack of competition with weaker teams
So that's fine, let's tip the balance even more in favour of the strong team.

A weaker team playing a strong team 15 v 15 can often at least make a game of it, whereas 14 v15 turns into a rout. Why is that better than keeping it 15v15 for most of the game so it remains a decent game, whilst still ensuring appropriate additional sanction is applied to the transgressing team?

As for your yellow card suggestion, you are making my point.

Currently there is far more variability in the impact of a red card on the game than a yellow. A yellow in minute one affects the game for 10 mins, in minute 79 for one. A red card in minute one affects the game for 79 minutes, after minute 70 it may as well be a yellow.

By applying the same similar loss of player sanction to a yellow card and a red the variation is not eliminated, but at least made equal between the cards. A set points penalty that applies in addition whenever the red card occurs means teams suffer the same additional sanction for a red over a yellow whenever it occurs.
That's an interesting solution. Just to clarify, are you talking points within a match(ie. Perhaps lose 7 points from your scoreline) or match points(ie. if you win, you get 2 points for the win rather than 4)?
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by DOB »

I don’t think introducing a points penalty with the red card solves anything. You can’t say “it’s unfair on the other 14 players to make them play an hour down a man” and then turn around and say. “So they have to play 7 points down for the rest of the game instead.”

Of course there have been games where the red card makes a big difference, but the suggestion from those who want to change the existing law is that the red card always makes that difference, which is untrue; there have been plenty of games where the side receiving a red have remained competitive. There’s also an element of post hoc propter hoc to it, too; a lot of the blow outs happen in games that could well have been headed for blowout status anyway.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Edinburgh01 »

Saturnine wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:13 pm That's an interesting solution. Just to clarify, are you talking points within a match(ie. Perhaps lose 7 points from your scoreline) or match points(ie. if you win, you get 2 points for the win rather than 4)?
To be frank, I'd not really thought this through. It was just an off the cuff suggestion to over come the fact that a red card can have a very variable impact depending on when given, and in what context. I happen to have fresh in my mind a couple of games when red cards were given late on, so may as well have been yellow.

I do feel reds should always be the ultimate sanction in a game, and this makes sure they are always more punitive to the transgressing team than yellows, whilst at the same time preserving a certain sense of equity in 15 v 15.

A loss from the scoreline seems more appropriate as that can be applied in games for league points, and also in knock out games.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Edinburgh01 »

DOB wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:52 pm I don’t think introducing a points penalty with the red card solves anything. You can’t say “it’s unfair on the other 14 players to make them play an hour down a man” and then turn around and say. “So they have to play 7 points down for the rest of the game instead.”
Well I can for the reasons stated. If the infringement comes early, the effect is much greater than if it comes late if it is loss of a player. Awarding points penalty no matter when the transgression occurs reduces that variability in effect.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Saturnine »

Edinburgh01 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:32 pm
Saturnine wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:13 pm That's an interesting solution. Just to clarify, are you talking points within a match(ie. Perhaps lose 7 points from your scoreline) or match points(ie. if you win, you get 2 points for the win rather than 4)?
To be frank, I'd not really thought this through. It was just an off the cuff suggestion to over come the fact that a red card can have a very variable impact depending on when given, and in what context. I happen to have fresh in my mind a couple of games when red cards were given late on, so may as well have been yellow.

I do feel reds should always be the ultimate sanction in a game, and this makes sure they are always more punitive to the transgressing team than yellows, whilst at the same time preserving a certain sense of equity in 15 v 15.

A loss from the scoreline seems more appropriate as that can be applied in games for league points, and also in knock out games.
Cheers. No more ill-thought out than a lot of the suggestions out there!
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by hermie »

DOB wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:28 pm I've played the game for more than 30 years and managed to avoid shoulder charging anyone in the cranium. Peter O'Mahony's done it twice in the last few months.
I've been on the receiving end of it quite a few times though.

It doesn't really do much to resolve the concussion issue either as the vast majority of the time it's the tackler who gets concussed.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

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Edinburgh01 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:32 pm
Saturnine wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:13 pm That's an interesting solution. Just to clarify, are you talking points within a match(ie. Perhaps lose 7 points from your scoreline) or match points(ie. if you win, you get 2 points for the win rather than 4)?
To be frank, I'd not really thought this through. It was just an off the cuff suggestion to over come the fact that a red card can have a very variable impact depending on when given, and in what context. I happen to have fresh in my mind a couple of games when red cards were given late on, so may as well have been yellow.

I do feel reds should always be the ultimate sanction in a game, and this makes sure they are always more punitive to the transgressing team than yellows, whilst at the same time preserving a certain sense of equity in 15 v 15.

A loss from the scoreline seems more appropriate as that can be applied in games for league points, and also in knock out games.
it would certainly make it soccer-like with players french-diving all over the place clutching their head if they down a couple of points with a minute or so to go.

I'm coming round the replacement rule... but I'd make it half a game before you can sub the red-carded player.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by DOB »

hermie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:48 pm
DOB wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:28 pm I've played the game for more than 30 years and managed to avoid shoulder charging anyone in the cranium. Peter O'Mahony's done it twice in the last few months.
I've been on the receiving end of it quite a few times though.

It doesn't really do much to resolve the concussion issue either as the vast majority of the time it's the tackler who gets concussed.
It’s not as if they aren’t issuing red cards for dangerous tackles; the cards are for contact with the head.

As we’ve pointed out here, the charge into the ruck is a relatively recent addition to the game, and it doesn’t happen at every ruck, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a lack of data on this particular type of contact versus others. There might not be many recorded concussions as a result of it, but you can plainly see that it has potential for injury, and needs to be watched carefully. POM’s charge on Francis is potentially equally dangerous with SBW’s shoulder on Watson, and needs to be treated equally.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by hermie »

DOB wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:42 pm
hermie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:48 pm
DOB wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:28 pm I've played the game for more than 30 years and managed to avoid shoulder charging anyone in the cranium. Peter O'Mahony's done it twice in the last few months.
I've been on the receiving end of it quite a few times though.

It doesn't really do much to resolve the concussion issue either as the vast majority of the time it's the tackler who gets concussed.
It’s not as if they aren’t issuing red cards for dangerous tackles; the cards are for contact with the head.

As we’ve pointed out here, the charge into the ruck is a relatively recent addition to the game, and it doesn’t happen at every ruck, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a lack of data on this particular type of contact versus others. There might not be many recorded concussions as a result of it, but you can plainly see that it has potential for injury, and needs to be watched carefully. POM’s charge on Francis is potentially equally dangerous with SBW’s shoulder on Watson, and needs to be treated equally.
POM's chicken wing vs SBW's shoulder is no comparison. It was a clear red of course but Francis wasn't troubled in the slightest. He didn't have to go off and get checked. 4 Irish players did but he didn't.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by DOB »

Francis has a hard head and Sexton doesn’t. If it had been North or Halfpenny pinned in that ruck, the outcome would have been different.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Rugby2023 »

LandOTurk wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:50 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:35 pm
FairWeather_Aussie wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:03 pmPunish the player. Allow a forced sub to come on after 10-20minutes so the game is still a spectacle. And ban the player for long enough to reflect on their tackling ‘ clean out etc technique.

Another benefit of this is that referees will be more inclined to give out reds for dangerous behaviour.
This is good :thumbup:

15 v 14 in test rugby is a buzzkill. We can find a deterrent without ruining the match.
It is, but a necessary one, until payers just stop doing it. Long term its better to red card.
If I thought that will happen, I'd support it. But I don't think it will, too many rucks in a game with people rushing in from all angles. Let's face it, these guys aren't targeting the head deliberately. It's accidental, reckless perhaps but rugby is reckless and that's why I think it will keep happening.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by message #2527204 »

Rugby2023 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:52 pm
LandOTurk wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:50 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:35 pm
FairWeather_Aussie wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:03 pmPunish the player. Allow a forced sub to come on after 10-20minutes so the game is still a spectacle. And ban the player for long enough to reflect on their tackling ‘ clean out etc technique.

Another benefit of this is that referees will be more inclined to give out reds for dangerous behaviour.
This is good :thumbup:

15 v 14 in test rugby is a buzzkill. We can find a deterrent without ruining the match.
It is, but a necessary one, until payers just stop doing it. Long term its better to red card.
If I thought that will happen, I'd support it. But I don't think it will, too many rucks in a game with people rushing in from all angles. Let's face it, these guys aren't targeting the head deliberately. It's accidental, reckless perhaps but rugby is reckless and that's why I think it will keep happening.
So you suggest that nothing is done about it because it will happen anyway? You shouldn't be entering a ruck shoulder, or chicken wing, first whether it's targetted at a head or not. You can't just say they'll do it anyway so we won't bother with the law.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Rugby2023 »

message #2527204 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:46 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:52 pm
LandOTurk wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:50 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:35 pm
FairWeather_Aussie wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:03 pmPunish the player. Allow a forced sub to come on after 10-20minutes so the game is still a spectacle. And ban the player for long enough to reflect on their tackling ‘ clean out etc technique.

Another benefit of this is that referees will be more inclined to give out reds for dangerous behaviour.
This is good :thumbup:

15 v 14 in test rugby is a buzzkill. We can find a deterrent without ruining the match.
It is, but a necessary one, until payers just stop doing it. Long term its better to red card.
If I thought that will happen, I'd support it. But I don't think it will, too many rucks in a game with people rushing in from all angles. Let's face it, these guys aren't targeting the head deliberately. It's accidental, reckless perhaps but rugby is reckless and that's why I think it will keep happening.
So you suggest that nothing is done about it because it will happen anyway? You shouldn't be entering a ruck shoulder, or chicken wing, first whether it's targetted at a head or not. You can't just say they'll do it anyway so we won't bother with the law.
Read the prior exchange (it's even quoted).
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

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Rugby2023 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:46 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:52 pm
LandOTurk wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:50 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:35 pm
This is good :thumbup:

15 v 14 in test rugby is a buzzkill. We can find a deterrent without ruining the match.
It is, but a necessary one, until payers just stop doing it. Long term its better to red card.
If I thought that will happen, I'd support it. But I don't think it will, too many rucks in a game with people rushing in from all angles. Let's face it, these guys aren't targeting the head deliberately. It's accidental, reckless perhaps but rugby is reckless and that's why I think it will keep happening.
So you suggest that nothing is done about it because it will happen anyway? You shouldn't be entering a ruck shoulder, or chicken wing, first whether it's targetted at a head or not. You can't just say they'll do it anyway so we won't bother with the law.
Read the prior exchange (it's even quoted).
Okay. gotcha. Though I'm not sure that more red cards is something to aspire to.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by DOB »

Rugby2023 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:52 pm
LandOTurk wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:50 pm
Rugby2023 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:35 pm
FairWeather_Aussie wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:03 pmPunish the player. Allow a forced sub to come on after 10-20minutes so the game is still a spectacle. And ban the player for long enough to reflect on their tackling ‘ clean out etc technique.

Another benefit of this is that referees will be more inclined to give out reds for dangerous behaviour.
This is good :thumbup:

15 v 14 in test rugby is a buzzkill. We can find a deterrent without ruining the match.
It is, but a necessary one, until payers just stop doing it. Long term its better to red card.
If I thought that will happen, I'd support it. But I don't think it will, too many rucks in a game with people rushing in from all angles. Let's face it, these guys aren't targeting the head deliberately. It's accidental, reckless perhaps but rugby is reckless and that's why I think it will keep happening.
As I pointed out earlier, the contest in the air was clamped down on, and players are being more careful chasing/receiving bombs.

If we see a few more reds for chicken-winging, we should see players become a little more careful entering rucks. They certainly won’t take a step back to wind up like POM did, the urgency will be to arrive quicker so as to enter on your own terms.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by Rugby2023 »

DOB wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:38 pmAs I pointed out earlier, the contest in the air was clamped down on, and players are being more careful chasing/receiving bombs.

If we see a few more reds for chicken-winging, we should see players become a little more careful entering rucks. They certainly won’t take a step back to wind up like POM did, the urgency will be to arrive quicker so as to enter on your own terms.
I read that but there are many more ruck situations in a game, it's just tougher to manage, 16 forwards not being reckless and making significant contact with the head at least once for 80 minutes is a tall order. We'll see, maybe you'll be proven correct. If it continues to ruin games in the longer term, then I'd hope Fairweather's suggestion is adopted before the next World Cup.
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DOB
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by DOB »

Rugby2023 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:25 pm
DOB wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:38 pmAs I pointed out earlier, the contest in the air was clamped down on, and players are being more careful chasing/receiving bombs.

If we see a few more reds for chicken-winging, we should see players become a little more careful entering rucks. They certainly won’t take a step back to wind up like POM did, the urgency will be to arrive quicker so as to enter on your own terms.
I read that but there are many more ruck situations in a game, it's just tougher to manage, 16 forwards not being reckless and making significant contact with the head at least once for 80 minutes is a tall order. We'll see, maybe you'll be proven correct. If it continues to ruin games in the longer term, then I'd hope Fairweather's suggestion is adopted before the next World Cup.
There are more rucks in a game, but in general they're pretty formulaic and lower impact. Usually a team doesn't want to put a ball in enough of a risk that it requires a missile-clearout like the ones we're discussing. Most clearouts happen from short range, by a player arriving right behind the ball-carrier, at about the same speed as the ball-carrier. The kind of clearout where a player risks making contact with an opponent's head, at speed, probably happens about as many times in a pro-level game as a contestable kick. And when it works, and a player makes a big clearout that leads to quick ball, we rightly praise it, just as we get excited when a winger or fullback makes a vital catch in the air.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by fonzeee »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:21 am
C69 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:52 am Most of the more dangerouos tackles on the air have been taken out of the game now after strong restrictions

World Rugby have to act and stop idiots flying in and making contact witj the head.
If you get a red then tough.
I think not the tackling a player in the air is a lot easier for players to adjust to as there are less variables. And entering a ruck safety should be similar for the same reason. And the adjustments needed shouldn't have any significant impact on the nature of the game.

General tackles are much more difficult though due to the number of variables. Yes, have some have said to could aim lower than the chest to lower the risk of an accidental head knock, but in doing so you are essentially giving the player with the ball a free pass to offload. So it will potentially have quite a significant impact on the nature of the game.
I agree with your post otherwise but I wonder about the bolded bit. If we're gonna basically say that you have no real recourse against a player in Jones' position who's over the ball, I think it's definitely going to drastically impact the breakdown and teams' strategy towards it.

I remember when I first discovered this place over a decade ago, and every other post was "BRING BACK RUCKING" because its abolition utterly upended the dynamics of the breakdown in a way that had an obvious (and negative) impact on how the game was played.

I fear this will be similar.
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Re: The multiplication of red cards in rugby because of the new laws about head tackling

Post by DOB »

fonzeee wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:57 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:21 am
C69 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:52 am Most of the more dangerouos tackles on the air have been taken out of the game now after strong restrictions

World Rugby have to act and stop idiots flying in and making contact witj the head.
If you get a red then tough.
I think not the tackling a player in the air is a lot easier for players to adjust to as there are less variables. And entering a ruck safety should be similar for the same reason. And the adjustments needed shouldn't have any significant impact on the nature of the game.

General tackles are much more difficult though due to the number of variables. Yes, have some have said to could aim lower than the chest to lower the risk of an accidental head knock, but in doing so you are essentially giving the player with the ball a free pass to offload. So it will potentially have quite a significant impact on the nature of the game.
I agree with your post otherwise but I wonder about the bolded bit. If we're gonna basically say that you have no real recourse against a player in Jones' position who's over the ball, I think it's definitely going to drastically impact the breakdown and teams' strategy towards it.

I remember when I first discovered this place over a decade ago, and every other post was "BRING BACK RUCKING" because its abolition utterly upended the dynamics of the breakdown in a way that had an obvious (and negative) impact on how the game was played.

I fear this will be similar.
There's plenty of recourse against Jones. Hogg was at the ruck early, and moving Jones off the ball, probably successfully, until Fagerson charged in. Even at that, there was a lot of Jones available to clear out, if Fagerson had done it with a bit more care. The ball may have been coming back slower than Scotland would have liked, but that's just good defensive play by Jones. We shouldn't allow players on the attacking team to crack defending players on the skull just for trying to spoil quick ruck ball.

"Bring back rucking" faded a long time ago. Even a brief glance back at a few highlight reels from the 70s and 80s will show you rucks that took a lot longer for the ball to emerge, if it ever did. Rucking didn't make the ball come out any quicker, but it did give a lot of players tiger stripes down their backs after.
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