Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Ali's Choice
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Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Ali's Choice »

It looks as if though Chiefs coach Clayton McMillan is going to switch Damian McKenzie back to first-five for season 2021, in a move that will no doubt have Ian 'dual playmaker' Foster very excited.

Damien McKenzie is a talented Rugby player. But he isn't a first-five's arsehole. I know our depth at no.10 in NZ currently isn't great, but surely the Chiefs should be investing time into developing a longterm pivot, rather than wasting a season playing McKenzie at 10? They have some really talented youngsters in their squad, such as Rivez Reihana, Kaleb Trask and Bryn Gatland.

I'm also really worried that Ian Foster is behind this move, and plans to use McKenzie 10 or no.22, rather than spend time developing someoe like Otere Black, who has the allround game to be a test player. Damien McKenzie lacks the composure and playing style to be a test level first-five.
Damian McKenzie starts at first five-eighth as Chiefs welcome back All Blacks for game of three halves
Joseph Pearson
14:06, Feb 19 2021

All Blacks playmaker Damian McKenzie has been listed to start at first five-eighth for the Chiefs in Saturday's game of three halves against the Crusaders and the Blues in Cambridge.

The Chiefs have welcomed back their All Blacks for the pre-season fixture, including national captain Sam Cane, Brad Weber, Anton Lienert-Brown and Tupou Vaa’i, and each can play up to 40 minutes at Hautapu's Memorial Park.

McKenzie has been named at 10 for the second half against the Blues, an indication perhaps that new coach Clayton McMillan is thinking about returning him there after switching to fullback permanently in 2019.

The 25-year-old last started at first-five in Super Rugby in Colin Cooper’s last season in charge when the Chiefs slumped to four consecutive losses in a dreadful start, but his move to fullback led to a return to form for the player and the team.

McKenzie suffered a serious knee injury in April 2019 and was ruled out of the Rugby World Cup in Japan, only returning for the Chiefs last year when he started at fullback under Warren Gatland and missed just two matches because of injury or being rested.

The Chiefs lost all eight matches in last year’s Super Rugby Aotearoa once the game resumed after its hiatus because of the Covid-19 pandemic and the 27-test All Black struggled with his form. He hardly featured for the All Blacks last season, too, making just one start at fullback and three appearances off the bench.

McMillan has All Blacks such as McKenzie available for the first time, and while their final pre-season outing is primarily a chance to experiment with combinations and improve match fitness and readiness, naming the dynamic Southlander at No 10 is an intriguing move nonetheless.

The Chiefs have lost centurion Aaron Cruden’s class and their remaining first-fives, Kaleb Trask and new recruits Bryn Gatland and Rivez Reihana, are not established at Super Rugby level.

Interestingly, McKenzie will partner All Blacks halfback Weber in the halves and Lienert-Brown starts at centre against the Blues, forming an experienced trio who have played much of their rugby together with Waikato and the Chiefs.

It’s also another indication of the Chiefs' wish to see McKenzie at first-five alongside team-mates who are almost certain to be starting when they kick off against the Highlanders in Hamilton on March 5.

First, Cane and Vaa’i return at openside flanker and lock respectively in the first half against the Crusaders, who will also be unleashing their All Blacks, as will the Blues.

The Chiefs will then get a break while the Crusaders and Blues contest their half and finish against the Blues when McKenzie, Weber and Lienert-Brown take the field.

The game of three halves in Cambridge was hastily arranged this week because of the changing Covid-19 alert levels in Auckland cancelling the Blues and the Crusaders' pre-season clash at Eden Park.

The fixture will not be open to the public and take place under level 2 protocols.

Last Saturday, the Chiefs recorded narrow wins over the Blues and the Hurricanes in a game of three halves in Upper Hutt.

“While we enjoyed a couple of wins in Upper Hutt, the margins between winning and losing are small,” McMillan said in a statement.

“We were lucky to be on the right side of a few key moments last week and will need to take a step forward in our accuracy this Saturday.

“Our physical intent was great but that will need to go up a notch to be truly competitive against quality opposition like the Blues and Crusaders. I have enjoyed the re-integration of our All Blacks over the last few weeks and I’m looking forward to the influence they will have in our team this weekend.”
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by guy smiley »

This is a trick question, right...
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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guy smiley wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:10 pm This is a trick question, right...
Look, I get after an 0-8 season in 2020, the pressure is on the Chiefs to perform. But I see switching McKenzie back to 10 as a very retrograde decision. If he was going to be their long-term no.10 they would never have moved him to fullback in the first place. His problem as a first five is that he;

A) is very selfish
'B) plays with a complete lack of structure or composure, and
C) looks to score a try off every single possession.

Those traits make him a liability at 10.

If you can't develop a young 10 during Super Rugby Aotearoa then when can you? When is the right time to invest time in Trask or Reihana, who both have more longterm potential as a 10 than McKenzie, IMO.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Ores questions where the answer is yes?

——-

Hard to see what’s going on here (and if any Foster involvement).
Maybe post injury DMAC is a better 10, because he didn’t make much headway at 15....

As you say other talent there - esp Trask.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by kiwigreg369 »

And as you say after an 0-8 season it has to get better / can’t be worse...
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:14 pm
guy smiley wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:10 pm This is a trick question, right...
Look, I get after an 0-8 season in 2020, the pressure is on the Chiefs to perform. But I see switching McKenzie back to 10 as a very retrograde decision. If he was going to be their long-term no.10 they would never have moved him to fullback in the first place. His problem as a first five is that he;

A) is very selfish
'B) plays with a complete lack of structure or composure, and
C) looks to score a try off every single possession.

Those traits make him a liability at 10.

If you can't develop a young 10 during Super Rugby Aotearoa then when can you? When is the right time to invest time in Trask or Reihana, who both have more longterm potential as a 10 than McKenzie, IMO.

Yup.

The Chiefs are that stupid.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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kiwigreg369 wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:15 pm Ores questions where the answer is yes?

——-

Hard to see what’s going on here (and if any Foster involvement).
Maybe post injury DMAC is a better 10, because he didn’t make much headway at 15....

As you say other talent there - esp Trask.
I think Trask was one of the 'finds' of 2020. His performance in the North South match was great, he looked like a test player in the making. Perhaps McMillan will play him at 15 and McKenzie at 10, but IMO that structure won't get the best out of either player or the team.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Eugenius »

Absolutely- the Chiefs really are that thick .

Fozzie is most definitely locked into this kind of back gazing insanity , I really wish he’d just piss off .
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Eugenius wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:51 pm Absolutely- the Chiefs really are that thick .

Fozzie is most definitely locked into this kind of back gazing insanity , I really wish he’d just piss off .
In the past, any time an AB player has changed position at SR level it has been as a result of directions for the AB coaching team, I'm thinking of Ardie Savea moving to no.8 for the Hurricanes and Goodhue moving to 12 for the Crusaders. There is no way stand in coach Clayton McMillan is moving McKenzie to 10 unless he has been told to.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Flockwitt »

Yep. Damien is, or was, the ideal spontaneous open field player. Brilliant, really did bring a point of difference and a real shame we didn't get to see him on the RWC stage at his best. He's not a 10 and at this stage agree trying to mould him into one is only inhibiting somebody else development.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by guy smiley »

Absolutely. No way a McMillan would do anything that stupid off his own bat. 8)
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by UncleFB »

As a Chiefs fan I'm more happy with DMac as a 10 than any of the Canes options.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by guy smiley »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:07 pm As a Chiefs fan I'm more happy with DMac as a 10 than any of the Canes options.
There is that, yes :lol:
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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UncleFB wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:07 pm As a Chiefs fan I'm more happy with DMac as a 10 than any of the Canes options.
:frown:
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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UncleFB wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:07 pm As a Chiefs fan I'm more happy with DMac as a 10 than any of the Canes options.
I think your point that more broadly, depth at 10 across NZ is poor, has merit.

Over the past 10 years a steady stream of talented young 10's have struggled to transition successfully into professional Rugby. I know being a schoolboy or U20s star first five doesn't guarantee someone success as a senior, but perhaps we need to closely examine how we are developing players in this key position?
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Wignu »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:07 pm As a Chiefs fan I'm more happy with DMac as a 10 than any of the Canes options.
:evil: Damn you to hell ... or in this case the Chiefs!
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by kiwigreg369 »

On the plus side we could have 5-6 23 yr old fly halves with 2-3 years experience. My issue is the consistency of the supply - to ACs point.

On DMAC in all seriousness it will be interesting to see how he goes and how the team performs. JOC has shown how people do develop into roles - I just suspect the upside of DMAC at 10 is known and has topped out at Super rugby level. NZ needs moreAB 10s.

As an aside I watched waps a few weeks back - they had umunga, Jimmy G, and L Sop playing 10-12-15 - quite the age range of 10s
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Ali's Choice »

Not only do I think that this isn't the best option for the Chiefs, the AB's of the Chiefs talented young 10's, but I think it's a bad option for Damien McKenzie.

He needs to be able to settle into a position, and this constant swapping between 10 and 15 puts his form and development at risk. The most effective way to derail a player's career progress is to not allow them to settle into a position. He turns 26 in April and he still hasn't had the chance to consolidate one position and make it his own at senior level.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Enzedder »

Not keen, but if he wants to have a look at DMacs #10 form this year, surely THIS is the time to do it.

Not kicking granny until the first game team is announced (where I predict he will be 15 and AC will again have egg on his face).
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by fonzeee »

Well, at least it will be fun to watch.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Whatever »

If McKenzie, Reihana, Trask and Gatland are all potential first fives for the Chiefs, then can they do the decent thing for New Zealand and loan one to the Canes?

Oh, and a halfback too.

With the age gap between BB and Mo'unga, and all the various young up and comers, it would be best to give game time to as many of the youngsters as possible and see who emerges as the best. There is a risk of not having anyone ready to step into the shoes of the current 2 AB first fives when they go.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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A huge part of the issue for the Chiefs is that they wasted 2020 playing Aaron Cruden at 10 for most of the season. He was always going to be a very short term solution at no.10, because he was only sticking around for one season. Yet they Gatland gave him the Lion's share of playing time at first five. It is all good and well to think short term if it wins you a title, or it takes you close to a title, but the Chiefs went 0-8. Kaleb Trask started the last match from memory, but that was too little too late. They chose not to invest in their young first fives and are now paying the price.
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Whatever wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:59 am If McKenzie, Reihana, Trask and Gatland are all potential first fives for the Chiefs, then can they do the decent thing for New Zealand and loan one to the Canes?

Oh, and a halfback too.

With the age gap between BB and Mo'unga, and all the various young up and comers, it would be best to give game time to as many of the youngsters as possible and see who emerges as the best. There is a risk of not having anyone ready to step into the shoes of the current 2 AB first fives when they go.
The problem is the way our 10's are ditributed across the comp. In a perfect world, this is how I would distribute our no.10's;

Crusaders: Mo'unga & Perofeta
Highlanders: Ioane and Gatland
Blues: Black & Plummer
Hurricanes: Hunt & Garden-Bachop
Chiefs: Trask & Reihana

There are only some minor tweaks here, but IMO that's a better balance of 10's across the franchises.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:04 am
Whatever wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:59 am If McKenzie, Reihana, Trask and Gatland are all potential first fives for the Chiefs, then can they do the decent thing for New Zealand and loan one to the Canes?

Oh, and a halfback too.

With the age gap between BB and Mo'unga, and all the various young up and comers, it would be best to give game time to as many of the youngsters as possible and see who emerges as the best. There is a risk of not having anyone ready to step into the shoes of the current 2 AB first fives when they go.
The problem is the way our 10's are ditributed across the comp. In a perfect world, this is how I would distribute our no.10's;

Crusaders: Mo'unga & Perofeta
Highlanders: Ioane and Gatland
Blues: Black & Plummer
Hurricanes: Hunt & Garden-Bachop
Chiefs: Trask & Reihana

There are only some minor tweaks here, but IMO that's a better balance of 10's across the franchises.
Maybe add Fletcher Smith, Fergus Burke and young Zarn Sullivan as extras. Maybe even former All Black Brett Cameron...

May be good for some of the youngsters to play under future AB assistant-coach Tony Brown :nod: . I wonder if there is any chance of Dan Carter working for NZR in a mentoring role? So much experience he could pass on.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Whatever wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:24 am Maybe add Fletcher Smith, Fergus Burke and young Zarn Sullivan as extras. Maybe even former All Black Brett Cameron...

May be good for some of the youngsters to play under future AB assistant-coach Tony Brown :nod: . I wonder if there is any chance of Dan Carter working for NZR in a mentoring role? So much experience he could pass on.
Sullivan is focusing on fullback I believe. What's Fletcher Smith doing with himself? I can't see him in any of the 2021 SR squads

I've left Burke and Cameron off because they are not up to SR standard at this stage of their careers, whish is a worry as they are Mo'unga's back for the Crusaders. It's interesting that Brett Cameron has signed for Manawatu for this year's Mitre 10 Cup. We will get to see how good the promising Burke really is.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:34 am
Whatever wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:24 am Maybe add Fletcher Smith, Fergus Burke and young Zarn Sullivan as extras. Maybe even former All Black Brett Cameron...

May be good for some of the youngsters to play under future AB assistant-coach Tony Brown :nod: . I wonder if there is any chance of Dan Carter working for NZR in a mentoring role? So much experience he could pass on.
Sullivan is focusing on fullback I believe. What's Fletcher Smith doing with himself? I can't see him in any of the 2021 SR squads

I've left Burke and Cameron off because they are not up to SR standard at this stage of their careers, whish is a worry as they are Mo'unga's back for the Crusaders. It's interesting that Brett Cameron has signed for Manawatu for this year's Mitre 10 Cup. We will get to see how good the promising Burke really is.
Smith was playing for Waikato in the Mitre10 then got concussed I think; one way or another it looks like he's out for the foreseeable future.

My thinking is that it takes a while for a young, promising first five to find his voice amongst a team of experienced older players, so at least get them in the squad as soon as poss.

Cupboard looks a bit bare, particularly when you think that very few of them offer a running option except Ioane, perhaps Trask and Perofeta, whereas both BB and Mo'unga do in spades. As did the bloke before them.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Whatever wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:52 am Cupboard looks a bit bare, particularly when you think that very few of them offer a running option except Ioane, perhaps Trask and Perofeta, whereas both BB and Mo'unga do in spades. As did the bloke before them.
Without wanting to sound contrarian, I actually think all the young 10's in NZ, aside from Black and Cameron, have good running games and have the potential to be effective ball runners at pro level. The problem is developing the confidence to run, and most importantly knowing when to run. Overplaying your hand is just as bad as underplaying it, but that balance only comes with experience and confidence.

I really like Otere Black. I know he's a Blues player and so I should secretly hate him, but I rate him. He has a great all-round game and he has the right temperament. I think he could have a long future as a test player. I would be playing him as Mo'unga's back-up for every test match this year. Sadly, I suspect he will be overlooked by Ian Foster because he lacks the x factor of a Damien McKenzie type player.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:59 am
Whatever wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:52 am Cupboard looks a bit bare, particularly when you think that very few of them offer a running option except Ioane, perhaps Trask and Perofeta, whereas both BB and Mo'unga do in spades. As did the bloke before them.
Without wanting to sound contrarian, I actually think all the young 10's in NZ, aside from Black and Cameron, have good running games and have the potential to be effective ball runners at pro level. The problem is developing the confidence to run, and most importantly knowing when to run. Overplaying your hand is just as bad as underplaying it, but that balance only comes with experience and confidence.

I really like Otere Black. I know he's a Blues player and so I should secretly hate him, but I rate him. He has a great all-round game and he has the right temperament. I think he could have a long future as a test player. I would be playing him as Mo'unga's back-up for every test match this year. Sadly, I suspect he will be overlooked by Ian Foster because he lacks the x factor of a Damien McKenzie type player.
I think of the first fives in the Mitre10, Black and Gatland ran their teams the best, and their teams played better than they looked on paper. I do like first fives that offer a running threat, and are good defensively; not convinced either are that good there.

But I do think Black could do a job at international level, and I'd be fine if they selected him. After watching the All Blacks running headlong into defensive brick walls a few times in the last couple of years, a more pragmatic 10 might not be the worst. And that's not DMac.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by CrazyIslander »

No.
But you might be as stupid as this post.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:03 am It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
Not sure this is worth arguing over anyway. Mackenzie is not dependable enough at test-level & his defensive game is not strong enough for an All Black fullback, unfortunately he's just too small. As you said helter-skelter, and does well against weak opposition like Australian Super Rugby sides.

The truth is, Mackenzie is simply not a test-level player full-stop. Only & ONLY if he converted to a half-back would I be happy with him playing for the All Blacks again.

His tiny 75kg frame helped the Chiefs to the worst defensive record in SRA 2020 and 0-8 record. His skittering runs & crabbing sideways always got him exposed & his team getting the ball turned back over. I don't even see how his form last year even warranted a place in the All Black squad. What's more is that he's a liability at test level especially on defense, he's the size of a halfback. Always prefer having J.Barrett's 102 kg frame defending at fullback than Mackenzie's 75kg one. Their defensive stats reflect this also. Jordie Barrett is the best outside back defensively in NZ followed by Beauden, Jordan & Havili, among others.. Yet Mackenzie's tackle success was merely 67% in SRA 2020.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

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deverix wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:38 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:03 am It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
Not sure this is worth arguing over anyway. Mackenzie is not dependable enough at test-level & his defensive game is not strong enough for an All Black fullback, unfortunately he's just too small. As you said helter-skelter, and does well against weak opposition like Australian Super Rugby sides.

The truth is, Mackenzie is simply not a test-level player full-stop.

His tiny 75kg frame helped the Chiefs to the worst defensive record in SRA 2020 and 0-8 record. His skittering runs & crabbing sideways always got him exposed & his team getting the ball turned back over. I don't even see how his form last year even warranted a place in the All Black squad. What's more is that he's a liability at test level especially on defense, he's the size of a halfback. Always prefer having J.Barrett's 102 kg frame defending at fullback than Mackenzie's 75kg one. Their defensive stats reflect this also. Jordie Barrett is the best outside back defensively in NZ followed by Beauden, Jordan & Havili, among others.. Yet Mackenzie's tackle success was merely 67% in SRA 2020.
Ima have to stop you there. Much of this is true, but D-Mac actually CAN play tests at 15.

He was a rock out the back for the ABs in that skinny 16-15 win against England in the rain at Twickenham.

Scored a well taken try but more importantly gobbled up the high ball with consummate ease.

He can play tests at 15. I am certain of that.
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by deverix »

jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:44 am
deverix wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:38 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:03 am It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
Not sure this is worth arguing over anyway. Mackenzie is not dependable enough at test-level & his defensive game is not strong enough for an All Black fullback, unfortunately he's just too small. As you said helter-skelter, and does well against weak opposition like Australian Super Rugby sides.

The truth is, Mackenzie is simply not a test-level player full-stop.

His tiny 75kg frame helped the Chiefs to the worst defensive record in SRA 2020 and 0-8 record. His skittering runs & crabbing sideways always got him exposed & his team getting the ball turned back over. I don't even see how his form last year even warranted a place in the All Black squad. What's more is that he's a liability at test level especially on defense, he's the size of a halfback. Always prefer having J.Barrett's 102 kg frame defending at fullback than Mackenzie's 75kg one. Their defensive stats reflect this also. Jordie Barrett is the best outside back defensively in NZ followed by Beauden, Jordan & Havili, among others.. Yet Mackenzie's tackle success was merely 67% in SRA 2020.
Ima have to stop you there. Much of this is true, but D-Mac actually CAN play tests at 15.

He was a rock out the back for the ABs in that skinny 16-15 win against England in the rain at Twickenham.

Scored a well taken try but more importantly gobbled up the high ball with consummate ease.

He can play tests at 15. I am certain of that.
Mackenzie has lost a great deal of speed & agility since his knee injury - that was his main asset previously. He's not that same player he was between 2017-2019 in Super Rugby.

Take that away from him now & his defensive frailties become more significant. He's courageous, but too often big players run through or over him..

Combine those defensive weaknesses with - now a much more limited attacking game & his potential upside is now no longer great enough to justify selecting him.

He's one of those players that's effective at Super Rugby level with lots of space to roam and where defensive shortcomings can be glossed over & neutralized. He's simply too small for a test fullback.

This is obviously a joke but perhaps he should convert to half-back with an eye for 2023? Smith & Weber will be 34 by 2023, so we need half-backs now more than anything. Even TJ Perenara has been on a downward trajectory recently..

We have a surplus of quality outside backs in NZ at the moment & Mackenzie will only become increasingly irrelevant with the likes of Will Jordan & Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens etc.. coming through the ranks.
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jdogscoop
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by jdogscoop »

deverix wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:47 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:44 am
deverix wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:38 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:03 am It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
Not sure this is worth arguing over anyway. Mackenzie is not dependable enough at test-level & his defensive game is not strong enough for an All Black fullback, unfortunately he's just too small. As you said helter-skelter, and does well against weak opposition like Australian Super Rugby sides.

The truth is, Mackenzie is simply not a test-level player full-stop.

His tiny 75kg frame helped the Chiefs to the worst defensive record in SRA 2020 and 0-8 record. His skittering runs & crabbing sideways always got him exposed & his team getting the ball turned back over. I don't even see how his form last year even warranted a place in the All Black squad. What's more is that he's a liability at test level especially on defense, he's the size of a halfback. Always prefer having J.Barrett's 102 kg frame defending at fullback than Mackenzie's 75kg one. Their defensive stats reflect this also. Jordie Barrett is the best outside back defensively in NZ followed by Beauden, Jordan & Havili, among others.. Yet Mackenzie's tackle success was merely 67% in SRA 2020.
Ima have to stop you there. Much of this is true, but D-Mac actually CAN play tests at 15.

He was a rock out the back for the ABs in that skinny 16-15 win against England in the rain at Twickenham.

Scored a well taken try but more importantly gobbled up the high ball with consummate ease.

He can play tests at 15. I am certain of that.
Mackenzie has lost a great deal of speed & agility since his knee injury - that was his main asset previously. He's not that same player he was between 2017-2019 in Super Rugby.

Take that away from him now & his defensive frailties become more significant. He's courageous, but too often big players run through or over him..

Combine those defensive weaknesses with - now a much more limited attacking game & his potential upside is now no longer great enough to justify selecting him.

He's one of those players that's effective at Super Rugby level with lots of space to roam and where defensive shortcomings can be glossed over & neutralized. He's simply too small for a test fullback.

This is obviously a joke but perhaps he should convert to half-back with an eye for 2023? Smith & Weber will be 34 by 2023, so we need half-backs now more than anything. Even TJ Perenara has been on a downward trajectory recently..

We have a surplus of quality outside backs in NZ at the moment & Mackenzie will only become increasingly irrelevant with the likes of Will Jordan & Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens etc.. coming through the ranks.
Lucky we don't do names on the back of jerseys in rugby union.
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Whatever
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Whatever »

jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:44 am
deverix wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:38 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:03 am It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
Not sure this is worth arguing over anyway. Mackenzie is not dependable enough at test-level & his defensive game is not strong enough for an All Black fullback, unfortunately he's just too small. As you said helter-skelter, and does well against weak opposition like Australian Super Rugby sides.

The truth is, Mackenzie is simply not a test-level player full-stop.

His tiny 75kg frame helped the Chiefs to the worst defensive record in SRA 2020 and 0-8 record. His skittering runs & crabbing sideways always got him exposed & his team getting the ball turned back over. I don't even see how his form last year even warranted a place in the All Black squad. What's more is that he's a liability at test level especially on defense, he's the size of a halfback. Always prefer having J.Barrett's 102 kg frame defending at fullback than Mackenzie's 75kg one. Their defensive stats reflect this also. Jordie Barrett is the best outside back defensively in NZ followed by Beauden, Jordan & Havili, among others.. Yet Mackenzie's tackle success was merely 67% in SRA 2020.
Ima have to stop you there. Much of this is true, but D-Mac actually CAN play tests at 15.

He was a rock out the back for the ABs in that skinny 16-15 win against England in the rain at Twickenham.

Scored a well taken try but more importantly gobbled up the high ball with consummate ease.

He can play tests at 15. I am certain of that.
There was also that brilliant winning try against South Africa in South Africa with he and Havilli.

I just hope DMac hasn't gone the way of Cullen, and his injury taken away that speed and nimbleness that makes him special. Really hopes he recovers his form and confidence because he is a pleasure to watch.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:14 pm
guy smiley wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:10 pm This is a trick question, right...
Look, I get after an 0-8 season in 2020, the pressure is on the Chiefs to perform. But I see switching McKenzie back to 10 as a very retrograde decision. If he was going to be their long-term no.10 they would never have moved him to fullback in the first place. His problem as a first five is that he;

A) is very selfish
'B) plays with a complete lack of structure or composure, and
C) looks to score a try off every single possession.

Those traits make him a liability at 10.

If you can't develop a young 10 during Super Rugby Aotearoa then when can you? When is the right time to invest time in Trask or Reihana, who both have more longterm potential as a 10 than McKenzie, IMO.
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UncleFB
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by UncleFB »

jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:44 am
deverix wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:38 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:03 am It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
Not sure this is worth arguing over anyway. Mackenzie is not dependable enough at test-level & his defensive game is not strong enough for an All Black fullback, unfortunately he's just too small. As you said helter-skelter, and does well against weak opposition like Australian Super Rugby sides.

The truth is, Mackenzie is simply not a test-level player full-stop.

His tiny 75kg frame helped the Chiefs to the worst defensive record in SRA 2020 and 0-8 record. His skittering runs & crabbing sideways always got him exposed & his team getting the ball turned back over. I don't even see how his form last year even warranted a place in the All Black squad. What's more is that he's a liability at test level especially on defense, he's the size of a halfback. Always prefer having J.Barrett's 102 kg frame defending at fullback than Mackenzie's 75kg one. Their defensive stats reflect this also. Jordie Barrett is the best outside back defensively in NZ followed by Beauden, Jordan & Havili, among others.. Yet Mackenzie's tackle success was merely 67% in SRA 2020.
Ima have to stop you there. Much of this is true, but D-Mac actually CAN play tests at 15.

He was a rock out the back for the ABs in that skinny 16-15 win against England in the rain at Twickenham.

Scored a well taken try but more importantly gobbled up the high ball with consummate ease.

He can play tests at 15. I am certain of that.
Deverix is at douche chill levels with his JB fluffing and now he’s incorporating putting down DMac,like douche with Nonu, into his shtick.
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Ali's Choice
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Location: Queensland

Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by Ali's Choice »

I just assumed that Deverix was Welsh because that's a Welsh looking moinker, but he seems to post a lot about NZ Rugby. Wherever he comes from, the more posters chatting about NZ rugby on this forum - the better :thumbup:
deverix
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by deverix »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:22 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:44 am
deverix wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:38 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:03 am It's a shit call. D-Mac's helter skelter, sideways running can work at 15 but is very seldom going to work at first five.

If Foster is behind this, and I suspect he is, it might be worth the ABs having a losing season if the reward is getting rid of the useless cvnt at the end of it.
Not sure this is worth arguing over anyway. Mackenzie is not dependable enough at test-level & his defensive game is not strong enough for an All Black fullback, unfortunately he's just too small. As you said helter-skelter, and does well against weak opposition like Australian Super Rugby sides.

The truth is, Mackenzie is simply not a test-level player full-stop.

His tiny 75kg frame helped the Chiefs to the worst defensive record in SRA 2020 and 0-8 record. His skittering runs & crabbing sideways always got him exposed & his team getting the ball turned back over. I don't even see how his form last year even warranted a place in the All Black squad. What's more is that he's a liability at test level especially on defense, he's the size of a halfback. Always prefer having J.Barrett's 102 kg frame defending at fullback than Mackenzie's 75kg one. Their defensive stats reflect this also. Jordie Barrett is the best outside back defensively in NZ followed by Beauden, Jordan & Havili, among others.. Yet Mackenzie's tackle success was merely 67% in SRA 2020.
Ima have to stop you there. Much of this is true, but D-Mac actually CAN play tests at 15.

He was a rock out the back for the ABs in that skinny 16-15 win against England in the rain at Twickenham.

Scored a well taken try but more importantly gobbled up the high ball with consummate ease.

He can play tests at 15. I am certain of that.
Deverix is at douche chill levels with his JB fluffing and now he’s incorporating putting down DMac,like douche with Nonu, into his shtick.
There is simply no place for a 177cm, 75kg fullback in modern test-rugby. Sure when the game was still amateur 20 years ago.. but not today. Mackenzie is a liability. Aaron Smith is 5kg heavier than him. Even first-five or halfback is more desirable than fullback because he's too short & can't compete against the taller back-three players of other nations. I'm being completely serious when I say Mackenzie should either convert to a halfback or kiss his international career goodbye.
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guy smiley
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Re: Are the Chiefs really this stupid?

Post by guy smiley »

Yeah....

Nah. You’re a grade A goose.
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