All Black squad selection thread

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Ali's Choice
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:07 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 am For the backs, Reece has never let anyone down in black and has been good for the saders so don't see how you leave him out.
In 2019 he was a major let down for me for the All Blacks at the business end.
Yes, yes we know. It's always Crusaders players who "let you down" and who you blame for our 2019 loss to England. The record is stuck PP.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:08 am

He's slow and fat. How much praise do you want for him taking a few unspectacular hit-ups off the base of the ruck or belly flopping over the tryline for a few tries?
That's why its disturbing that Savea is in better form than Reece.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:10 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:08 am

He's slow and fat. How much praise do you want for him taking a few unspectacular hit-ups off the base of the ruck or belly flopping over the tryline for a few tries?
That's why its disturbing that Savea is in better form than Reece.
Except he's not. And I've not heard anyone say that except you. Sevu Reece is in great form.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:07 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 am For the backs, Reece has never let anyone down in black and has been good for the saders so don't see how you leave him out.
In 2019 he was a major let down for me for the All Blacks at the business end.
Don't think any wingers had a good 2019 in black. Remember how ordinary even Ben Smith and Ioane looked?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:10 am Yes, yes we know. It's always Crusaders players who "let you down" and who you blame for our 2019 loss to England. The record is stuck PP.
I've made it pretty clear that I'm doubtful that several Blues forwards should be persisted with along with players from other teams.
Last edited by Pakia Pakia on Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:13 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:07 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 am For the backs, Reece has never let anyone down in black and has been good for the saders so don't see how you leave him out.
In 2019 he was a major let down for me for the All Blacks at the business end.
Don't think any wingers had a good 2019 in black. Remember how ordinary even Ben Smith and Ioane looked?
Ben Smith and Rieko Ioane played poorly in one game when the forwards were dominated.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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jdogscoop wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:51 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.
Four tries in 8 games? I guess the All Blacks might consider that mediocre. Pretty much any other international team would consider it pretty bloody good, I would argue.
That's because no other international team scores any where near the amount of tries the All Blacks do. For an All Black winger its extremely ordinary.

Sevu Reece's Crusaders form this year is no where what it was for the Crusaders in 2019. He has done nothing for the All Blacks or the Crusaders this year to suggest he's a long term All Black.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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You are a hard man PP. Slagging Reece and accepting the failings of Akira-lite.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:12 am Sevu Reece is in great form.
He is in great form for a journeyman level winger. His form is solid. But its not form becoming of an All Black wing.

If you were to go and watch some Crusaders games from 2019 what you will see is Reece playing on another level to what he is now. This year he has been half the player of what he was in 2019 at Super Rugby level.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Peteray wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:19 am You are a hard man PP. Slagging Reece and accepting the failings of Akira-lite.
Akira Ioane has played well for the All Blacks. Who knows how long that will last?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 am For the backs, Reece has never let anyone down in black and has been good for the saders so don't see how you leave him out.

I would rather Nareki than rayasi if it was between the two of them.

While all those guys probably do a job, it will come down to how they see their starting back 3/23 and then how many spots they have for backs in the squad.

Personally I'd like to see:
15 Dmac
14 Reece
11 Nareki
23 Jordan

Can't see foster leaving Jordie out, so could have him at 15 and dmac in 23 as don't really see Jordie as an impact player
Would that be the shortest back 3 of all time?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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trapper wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:48 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 am For the backs, Reece has never let anyone down in black and has been good for the saders so don't see how you leave him out.

I would rather Nareki than rayasi if it was between the two of them.

While all those guys probably do a job, it will come down to how they see their starting back 3/23 and then how many spots they have for backs in the squad.

Personally I'd like to see:
15 Dmac
14 Reece
11 Nareki
23 Jordan

Can't see foster leaving Jordie out, so could have him at 15 and dmac in 23 as don't really see Jordie as an impact player
Would that be the shortest back 3 of all time?
Trying to think, I know the boks had a few midget players but probably not at the same time. Assuming the Welsh pre gatland would have fielded a whole backline of dwarfs at some point
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by merlin the happy pig »

Quite sad to see Laumape going.
This year would seem to have been tailor made for an actual specialist 12 to step up.
None of Ioane, ALB or Goodhue are natural 12's and I don't think long term that Havili is better than Laumape. No doubt Havili is a consummate footballer, but he is also very much in the solid rather than spectacular mold.
Looking to 2023 I can't see ALB and Goodhue offering enough on attack to be effective, they both have silky skills, but there are occasions when you need simple athleticism whether that is via pace/agility or raw power. They are simply adequate in that regard. Laumape may not have the power of Nonu but a backline with Laumape at 12 looks better balanced than ALB and Goodhue.
Ioane at center doesn't really solve the problem either, we aren't short of centers, we are short of 12's, and moving him to 13 simply creates a hole at 11 that we can't sill with anything like his power/pace. (and ability under the high ball)

I don't have an obvious answer to this conundrum, but I think we can only afford to play 1 of Goodhue and ALB, and we have to leave Ioane on the wing because moving him plugs a hole we don't need to fill, and creates a hole we can't easily fill.

Longshot, groom Leicester Fainga'anuku as a 12 and play one of ALB or Goodhue outside him
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:14 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:13 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:07 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 am For the backs, Reece has never let anyone down in black and has been good for the saders so don't see how you leave him out.
In 2019 he was a major let down for me for the All Blacks at the business end.
Don't think any wingers had a good 2019 in black. Remember how ordinary even Ben Smith and Ioane looked?
Ben Smith and Rieko Ioane played poorly in one game when the forwards were dominated.
:thumbup:
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:37 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:12 am Sevu Reece is in great form.
He is in great form for a journeyman level winger. His form is solid. But its not form becoming of an All Black wing.

If you were to go and watch some Crusaders games from 2019 what you will see is Reece playing on another level to what he is now. This year he has been half the player of what he was in 2019 at Super Rugby level.
No matter how well he plays there's always a stench to how he became an AB. He had left NZ rugby and signed with an Irish club (and presumably was going to play for Fiji) but due to assaulting his missus he lost that contract and NZR rewarded him with an All Black spot.

If we're going to play a hot and cold small Fijian ethnicity winger I'd rather we play Nareki who is still loyal to NZ and hasn't assaulted any women, that we know of.
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:10 am
trapper wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am Is Coles worth persisting with? I know he is a great player n all but he is a bit injury prone and he is not getting any younger and that young hooker from the Chiefs is pretty bloody good. Two years out it’s probably worth thinking about blooding a new hooker.
That's a valid question that is difficult to answer. Kevin Mealamu was around 36 at the RWC in 2015. I think Coles is still stronger at the lineout than Aumua and Taukeiaho
If Coles can make the next RWC he's definitely worth persisting with. Him and Taylor are still heads and shoulders above any other hookers in the country (Dixon is probably next best but his chance in the black jersey has passed.)
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:28 am No matter how well he plays there's always a stench to how he became an AB. He had left NZ rugby and signed with an Irish club (and presumably was going to play for Fiji) but due to assaulting his missus he lost that contract and NZR rewarded him with an All Black spot.
You've always had it in for Reece, yet you love and adore more established AB's who were convicted of far worse, but were high profile enough to get name suppression. And let's not forget the disgusting allegations made against your beloved Chiefs team from that lone stripper a few years ago that were swept under the carpet.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Only 5 players who were in the losing 2007 23 made it through to the 2011 winning 23.

I'm convinced that the bulk of players who failed in 2019 are not the players we need to win 2023.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

If I had to pick 5 players from 2019 for a 23 in 2023 they would probably be:

Cody Taylor
Sam Whitelock
Brodie Retallick
Aaron Smith
Richie Mo'unga
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:48 am If I had to pick 5 players from 2019 for a 23 in 2023 they would probably be:

Cody Taylor
Sam Whitelock
Brodie Retallick
Aaron Smith
Richie Mo'unga
Name your hypothetical 1st choice AB XXIII for the 2023 RWC.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by UncleFB »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:39 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:28 am No matter how well he plays there's always a stench to how he became an AB. He had left NZ rugby and signed with an Irish club (and presumably was going to play for Fiji) but due to assaulting his missus he lost that contract and NZR rewarded him with an All Black spot.
You've always had it in for Reece, yet you love and adore more established AB's who were convicted of far worse, but were high profile enough to get name suppression. And let's not forget the disgusting allegations made against your beloved Chiefs team from that lone stripper a few years ago that were swept under the carpet.
Who are they all?

I find it odd you're using whataboutry to defend your fluffing of Reece, especially with how hard you go at Lima. You can be a fan of him if you want, doesn't change the fact he was disloyal, assaulted a woman, and isn't as good as you make out.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:51 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:39 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:28 am No matter how well he plays there's always a stench to how he became an AB. He had left NZ rugby and signed with an Irish club (and presumably was going to play for Fiji) but due to assaulting his missus he lost that contract and NZR rewarded him with an All Black spot.
You've always had it in for Reece, yet you love and adore more established AB's who were convicted of far worse, but were high profile enough to get name suppression. And let's not forget the disgusting allegations made against your beloved Chiefs team from that lone stripper a few years ago that were swept under the carpet.
Who are they all?

I find it odd you're using whataboutry to defend your fluffing of Reece, especially with how hard you go at Lima. You can be a fan of him if you want, doesn't change the fact he was disloyal, assaulted a woman, and isn't as good as you make out.
Sitiveni Sivivatu. Julian Savea. Do I need to go on? Your hypocrisy is appalling, you gleefully support established AB's who commit assault but troll young players who do the same thing but aren't high profile enough to get name suppression.

Btw Brian Lima was a wife beater for many years and his ex wife is a close relation. He would regularly beat her into a bloody pulp.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:58 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:51 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:39 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:28 am No matter how well he plays there's always a stench to how he became an AB. He had left NZ rugby and signed with an Irish club (and presumably was going to play for Fiji) but due to assaulting his missus he lost that contract and NZR rewarded him with an All Black spot.
You've always had it in for Reece, yet you love and adore more established AB's who were convicted of far worse, but were high profile enough to get name suppression. And let's not forget the disgusting allegations made against your beloved Chiefs team from that lone stripper a few years ago that were swept under the carpet.
Who are they all?

I find it odd you're using whataboutry to defend your fluffing of Reece, especially with how hard you go at Lima. You can be a fan of him if you want, doesn't change the fact he was disloyal, assaulted a woman, and isn't as good as you make out.
Sitiveni Sivivatu. Julian Savea. Do I need to go on? Your hypocrisy is appalling, you gleefully support established AB's who commit assault but troll young players who do the same thing but aren't high profile enough to get name suppression.

Btw Brian Lima was a wife beater for many years and his ex wife is a close relation. He would regularly beat her into a bloody pulp.
Have you ever seen me defend those two? You're normally good for the banter but you're way the fvck off base here.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by naki »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:46 am Only 5 players who were in the losing 2007 23 made it through to the 2011 winning 23.

I'm convinced that the bulk of players who failed in 2019 are not the players we need to win 2023.
It's not going to be the players so much as the game plan that's going to matter. Hansen and his toady Fozzie thinking that an underpowered pack and entirely new backline combinations were going to be able to run everyone off their feet in Japan was a fatal mistake.

Unfortunately it's likely that even another mediocre season will see Foster keep his job until the WC, in which case we might as well start building for 2027 now.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:02 am Have you ever seen me defend those two? You're normally good for the banter but you're way the fvck off base here.
You certainly never raised their assault convictions as regularly as you do Reece's. The only reason we are having this discussion is because you again raised Reece's assault charge on this thread. Which I think is unfair given the facts of the case.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/107 ... ult-charge
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:05 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:02 am Have you ever seen me defend those two? You're normally good for the banter but you're way the fvck off base here.
You certainly never raised their assault convictions as regularly as you do Reece's. The only reason we are having this discussion is because you again raised Reece's assault charge on this thread. Which I think is unfair given the facts of the case.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/107 ... ult-charge
Why would I? Sivi hasn't been around for years and Fatty Savea hasn't been an AB years, plus, calling him Fatty pisses off his fanbois enough.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:50 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:48 am If I had to pick 5 players from 2019 for a 23 in 2023 they would probably be:

Cody Taylor
Sam Whitelock
Brodie Retallick
Aaron Smith
Richie Mo'unga
Name your hypothetical 1st choice AB XXIII for the 2023 RWC.
This is a challenging exercise.

This is the team from 2019 that lost to England:

1. Joe Moody (44)
2. Codie Taylor (49)
3. Nepo Laulala (24)
4. Brodie Retallick (79)
5. Samuel Whitelock (116)
6. Scott Barrett (34)
7. Ardie Savea (43)
8. Kieran Read - captain (125)
9. Aaron Smith (90)
10. Richie Mo’unga (15)
11. George Bridge (8)
12. Anton Lienert-Brown (41)
13. Jack Goodhue (12)
14. Sevu Reece (6)
15. Beauden Barrett (81)


16. Dane Coles (67)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (34)
18. Angus Ta'avao (12)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (28)
20. Sam Cane (66)
21. T J Perenara (63)
22. Sonny Bill Williams (56)
23. Jordie Barrett (15)

At this time I can't bring myself to pick Brodie Retallick because he has been playing in Japan and I don't know if his heart is really in it any more. We will have to see how his form goes when he comes back to NZ.

My team for 2023 only retaining 5 players from the losing 2019 23 would be:

1. Aidan Ross
2. *Codie Taylor
3. *Angus Ta'avao
4. Pari Pari Parkinson
5. *Samuel Whitelock (c)
6. Ethan Blackadder
7. Dalton Papalii
8. Akira Ioane
9. *Aaron Smith
10. *Richie Mo’unga
11. Salesi Rayasi
12. David Havili
13. Leicester Fainga'anuku
14. Will Jordan
15. Zarn Sullivan

16. Samisoni Taukei’aho
17. Ethan de Groot
18. Tamati Williams
19. Tupou Vaa'i
20. Hoskins Sotutu
21. Folau Fakatava
22. Damian Mackenzie
23. Rieko Ioane
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Fair play PP - you had a good crack at that.

RMos running is so good again today, lovely running style.

I want to add Cane - as he’s got a longer career ahead (probably) but we really need Sam W at the moment
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Kiwias »

PP

No space for BB in your 23?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

Anyone know when the first AB squad for 2021 will be named? We play Tonga on July 3rd, which is just three weeks away.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Just looked - no dates. In interview with Sean Wainui after game I thought he mentioned next week for MAB.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:33 am Just looked - no dates. In interview with Sean Wainui after game I thought he mentioned next week for MAB.
You'd think the AB's team would be named first, with the MAB's named later that day or the next day?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Kiwias wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:26 am PP

No space for BB in your 23?
He's not in my top 5 to be retained from 2019.

I didn't watch him in Japan and don't rate that comp as an indicator of form.

Last year he was up and down for the Blues. He played well for the North and South game and then was up and down for the All Blacks.

BB hasn't really been in convincing form since 2017.

I hope he can show some form for the Blues and put some pressure on Mo'unga next year who has no one clipping his heels at the moment.

Someone needs to keep Mo'unga honest. He does sloppy things with the basics occasionally like kick penalty touch finders dead. I don't recall Dan Carter ever doing that.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:29 am Someone needs to keep Mo'unga honest. He does sloppy things with the basics occasionally like kick penalty touch finders dead. I don't recall Dan Carter ever doing that.
5 titles in five years for the Crusaders yet here you are obsessing over the occasional missed touch finder :lol:
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:33 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:29 am Someone needs to keep Mo'unga honest. He does sloppy things with the basics occasionally like kick penalty touch finders dead. I don't recall Dan Carter ever doing that.
5 titles in five years for the Crusaders yet here you are obsessing over the occasional missed touch finder :lol:
You seem incapable of having a serious conversation about Mo'unga's downsides.

He has the same issue as when Beauden Barrett was the World Rugby Player of the year. Teams become dependent on those players to win games with their X-Factor running game from 10.

That's easy to shut down at RWC knockout games when teams raise their defense to a new level.

No RWC winning team had an X-Factor player like Mo'unga or Barrett at 10. By 2015 Carter no longer had his running game but was able to fall back to an extremely proficient orthodox 10 game.

Sometimes Mo'unga gets sloppy with the orthodox components of 10 play. That's ok when you're the Crusaders in Super Rugby but it doesn't wash at test level.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by CrazyIslander »

merlin the happy pig wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:18 am Quite sad to see Laumape going.
This year would seem to have been tailor made for an actual specialist 12 to step up.
None of Ioane, ALB or Goodhue are natural 12's and I don't think long term that Havili is better than Laumape. No doubt Havili is a consummate footballer, but he is also very much in the solid rather than spectacular mold.
Looking to 2023 I can't see ALB and Goodhue offering enough on attack to be effective, they both have silky skills, but there are occasions when you need simple athleticism whether that is via pace/agility or raw power. They are simply adequate in that regard. Laumape may not have the power of Nonu but a backline with Laumape at 12 looks better balanced than ALB and Goodhue.
Ioane at center doesn't really solve the problem either, we aren't short of centers, we are short of 12's, and moving him to 13 simply creates a hole at 11 that we can't sill with anything like his power/pace. (and ability under the high ball)

I don't have an obvious answer to this conundrum, but I think we can only afford to play 1 of Goodhue and ALB, and we have to leave Ioane on the wing because moving him plugs a hole we don't need to fill, and creates a hole we can't easily fill.

Longshot, groom Leicester Fainga'anuku as a 12 and play one of ALB or Goodhue outside him
I'd play Goodhue at 13. He's a better athlete than ALB. You'd need that against guys like Ringrose, Petaia etc. He won't beat them but he'd keep them in check.

I'd go Ioane at 12, he's the new whiye Nonu.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by sinba556 »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:07 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:33 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:29 am Someone needs to keep Mo'unga honest. He does sloppy things with the basics occasionally like kick penalty touch finders dead. I don't recall Dan Carter ever doing that.
5 titles in five years for the Crusaders yet here you are obsessing over the occasional missed touch finder :lol:
You seem incapable of having a serious conversation about Mo'unga's downsides.

He has the same issue as when Beauden Barrett was the World Rugby Player of the year. Teams become dependent on those players to win games with their X-Factor running game from 10.

That's easy to shut down at RWC knockout games when teams raise their defense to a new level.

No RWC winning team had an X-Factor player like Mo'unga or Barrett at 10. By 2015 Carter no longer had his running game but was able to fall back to an extremely proficient orthodox 10 game.

Sometimes Mo'unga gets sloppy with the orthodox components of 10 play. That's ok when you're the Crusaders in Super Rugby but it doesn't wash at test level.
You don't take a team to 5 titles with a deficient 10. He gas an excellent running game. That doesn't take anything away from his game otherwise. Even Carter kicked the occasional penalty dead. Overall Mounga has a pretty complete game
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

sinba556 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:37 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:07 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:33 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:29 am Someone needs to keep Mo'unga honest. He does sloppy things with the basics occasionally like kick penalty touch finders dead. I don't recall Dan Carter ever doing that.
5 titles in five years for the Crusaders yet here you are obsessing over the occasional missed touch finder :lol:
You seem incapable of having a serious conversation about Mo'unga's downsides.

He has the same issue as when Beauden Barrett was the World Rugby Player of the year. Teams become dependent on those players to win games with their X-Factor running game from 10.

That's easy to shut down at RWC knockout games when teams raise their defense to a new level.

No RWC winning team had an X-Factor player like Mo'unga or Barrett at 10. By 2015 Carter no longer had his running game but was able to fall back to an extremely proficient orthodox 10 game.

Sometimes Mo'unga gets sloppy with the orthodox components of 10 play. That's ok when you're the Crusaders in Super Rugby but it doesn't wash at test level.
You don't take a team to 5 titles with a deficient 10. He gas an excellent running game. That doesn't take anything away from his game otherwise. Even Carter kicked the occasional penalty dead. Overall Mounga has a pretty complete game
I never said he was deficient. I said he can be sloppy at times. There is a difference. He essentially has lapses of concentration that you can get away with at Super Rugby level when you're playing for the Crusaders.
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Pakia Pakia
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

CrazyIslander wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:28 am
merlin the happy pig wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:18 am Quite sad to see Laumape going.
This year would seem to have been tailor made for an actual specialist 12 to step up.
None of Ioane, ALB or Goodhue are natural 12's and I don't think long term that Havili is better than Laumape. No doubt Havili is a consummate footballer, but he is also very much in the solid rather than spectacular mold.
Looking to 2023 I can't see ALB and Goodhue offering enough on attack to be effective, they both have silky skills, but there are occasions when you need simple athleticism whether that is via pace/agility or raw power. They are simply adequate in that regard. Laumape may not have the power of Nonu but a backline with Laumape at 12 looks better balanced than ALB and Goodhue.
Ioane at center doesn't really solve the problem either, we aren't short of centers, we are short of 12's, and moving him to 13 simply creates a hole at 11 that we can't sill with anything like his power/pace. (and ability under the high ball)

I don't have an obvious answer to this conundrum, but I think we can only afford to play 1 of Goodhue and ALB, and we have to leave Ioane on the wing because moving him plugs a hole we don't need to fill, and creates a hole we can't easily fill.

Longshot, groom Leicester Fainga'anuku as a 12 and play one of ALB or Goodhue outside him
I'd play Goodhue at 13. He's a better athlete than ALB. You'd need that against guys like Ringrose, Petaia etc. He won't beat them but he'd keep them in check.

I'd go Ioane at 12, he's the new whiye Nonu.
You're wrong on 3 counts in this post.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

It is going to be very interesting to see how Ian Foster approaches the selection of his midfield.

Jack Goodhue has been a mainstay of the AB midfield for the past few years, being rotated between 12 and 13, but he's injured. Ngani Laumape is going to France.

The depth at 12 is arguably weaker than it's ever been in the pro-era. It's reflects poorly on NZ Rugby that David Havili was the form 12 in the country this year given he's barely played at 12 in a decade.

I expect Foster will use ALB and Havili at 12, and Ioane and Fainga'anuku at 13. That horrifes me a but as neither Ioane or Fainga'anuku have a test class passing game. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Alex Nankivell get a call up. He's a bit of a hybrid 12, able to use his his passing game to create time and space for his outside players but also bug enough to straighten the attack and play as a bosh midfielder.

Personally I'd love to see Michael Collins get a run at 13. I think he has the potential to be the White Conrad Smith.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Peteray »

For me the worst aspect of the midfield conundrum was that Peter Umaga-Jensen got bugger all game time, and as a big unit he needs to play often, and Vince Aso neither. Following on from that, yes, it is the 12 jersey that's a concern as when you look at the 13's we have Ioane, Ennor, Faingaanuku, in a bit of a logjam. When you think that Havili is only a recent conversion to 12 I guess Nankivell does come into the reckoning, but we really need, for next year, all the young guns to be fit and firing, like the Umaga-Jensen brothers, Paea, B Sullivan, Tupaea, Punivai, Proctor, and Aso. I could just throw a wildcard in too... I think he's too small, but Reece played at centre in his school days didn't he?
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