All Black squad selection thread

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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by guy smiley »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:22 am
guy smiley wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:19 am There is no 'bad'.

There is only 'not quite ready'.
I've seen Jordan do some very stupid things. 21 year old Jordie Barrett level brain farts.
No, you haven't.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

I have but I would still take Jordan over Barrett.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by guy smiley »

You haven't if you know what's good for you, capiche?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Peteray »

They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by sinba556 »

Jordie Barrett and rugby brain? He often makes poor decisions, both as an all black and hurricane. Doesnt fill me with confidence for All Blacks
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Not really. They played in different eras. I never gave Foxy much thought after he retired.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by booji boy »

Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Kiwias »

guy smiley wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:25 am
Kiwias wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:20 am
trapper wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:58 am
Kiwias wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:53 am
deverix wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:45 am Exactly.

SBW has been consistently a more composed & rounded player than Nonu in SR under pressure (great potential but requires a lot of refining - despite bring only 3 years younger than Nonu). Unfortunately SBW has the name that seems to bring out all the haters.

Unlike the turnstile on defense of Nonu, SBW has an all-round skill set, a great rugby brain & is the only back I’ve seen who is prepared to (and has the strength to) do clean outs in tackled ball situations and turn over the ball for his team. He's a complete player but no-one on here is willing to acknowledge it out of fear of being ridiculed.
Is this the poster who had wet dreams about SBW?
Douche Chill?

Could well be.
I fixed the post for him.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Eugenius »

sinba556 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:23 am Jordie Barrett and rugby brain? He often makes poor decisions, both as an all black and hurricane. Doesnt fill me with confidence for All Blacks

Jordie and brain used in the same sentence?
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Grandpa »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
Did Mehrtens crumble? Not against SA for sure. Against France? I think his forwards crumbled in front of him.. I never laid blame at his feet... same with Carlos against Australia... he wasn't the cause of the loss..
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by deverix »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:22 am I've seen Jordan do some very stupid things. 21 year old Jordie Barrett level brain farts.
Ironically, Will Jordan has been guilty of worse brain-farts this season than the one's that J.Barrett was criticized for during that 2018 Hurricanes season those many years ago.

& the difference here is that Will Jordan is already 23, while Jordie Barrett was only 20/21 years old in comparison. Currently Jordie is 24, only 10 months older than Will Jordan..

Yet strangely Jordan is exempt from any criticism of the exact same brain-farts that J.Barrett was criticized for committing - at a much earlier stage of his development.

The difference between me and Guy Smiley is that even as a Crusaders supporter I try not to allow Crusaders-bias to cloud my judgement of Super Rugby players. I support and follow all the NZ Super Rugby sides. I watch all the games in full, not just the Crusaders matches. And my assessment of Jordie Barrett vs Will Jordan is established from that.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by jdogscoop »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
Isn't this a discussion about first fives?
On 31 October 2015, Barrett scored the final try in the 2015 Rugby World Cup Final match against Australia, having been substituted on for the injured Nehe Milner-Skudder. Dan Carter converted his try to make the final score 34–17.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

jdogscoop wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:20 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
Isn't this a discussion about first fives?
On 31 October 2015, Barrett scored the final try in the 2015 Rugby World Cup Final match against Australia, having been substituted on for the injured Nehe Milner-Skudder. Dan Carter converted his try to make the final score 34–17.
Thanks for confirming he scored a match winning try at an RWC. If only Merthens or Spencer or Mo'unga could have done that too.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Sonny Blount »

Eugenius wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:06 am
sinba556 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:23 am Jordie Barrett and rugby brain? He often makes poor decisions, both as an all black and hurricane. Doesnt fill me with confidence for All Blacks

Jordie and brain used in the same sentence?

That's the reason I think he should start for the All Blacks. One of the best heads for rugby for his age that you will ever see.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by jdogscoop »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:27 pm
jdogscoop wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:20 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
Isn't this a discussion about first fives?
On 31 October 2015, Barrett scored the final try in the 2015 Rugby World Cup Final match against Australia, having been substituted on for the injured Nehe Milner-Skudder. Dan Carter converted his try to make the final score 34–17.
Thanks for confirming he scored a match winning try at an RWC. If only Merthens or Spencer or Mo'unga could have done that too.
What it also suggests is that he tends to play his best rugby wider out - as a super sub with more time and space.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Pakia Pakia »

jdogscoop wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:03 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:27 pm
jdogscoop wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:20 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am

Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
Isn't this a discussion about first fives?
On 31 October 2015, Barrett scored the final try in the 2015 Rugby World Cup Final match against Australia, having been substituted on for the injured Nehe Milner-Skudder. Dan Carter converted his try to make the final score 34–17.
Thanks for confirming he scored a match winning try at an RWC. If only Merthens or Spencer or Mo'unga could have done that too.
What it also suggests is that he tends to play his best rugby wider out - as a super sub with more time and space.
Yes I agree he was dynamite as an impact player early on in his career. He won World Rugby Player of the year in 2016 and 2017 when he played 27 games. All playing at first five except 1 game. His win rate was 92% with 1 loss and 1 draw.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Dan54. »

Well the strange ideas aren't just held by the some posters in here I decided yesterday.
Was having a beer after a few holes of golf, and bit of discussion on AB team came up. A couple of the fellas thought BB should be first choice at 10, I said I thought RM, and then it got all PR posters sryle.
One of them assured me that RM couldn't and hadn't made the step up to test level, but said he would probably still get picked because he such a favourite of Fozzie's !! :lol: :lol:

I had to admit I just went onto some other subject whilst quietly chuckling to myself about how AC and co would of exploded :nod: :nod:
So there are some strange ideas everywhere, not just in here. :shock:
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by booji boy »

Dan54. wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:10 pm Well the strange ideas aren't just held by the some posters in here I decided yesterday.
Was having a beer after a few holes of golf, and bit of discussion on AB team came up. A couple of the fellas thought BB should be first choice at 10, I said I thought RM, and then it got all PR posters sryle.
One of them assured me that RM couldn't and hadn't made the step up to test level, but said he would probably still get picked because he such a favourite of Fozzie's !! :lol: :lol:

I had to admit I just went onto some other subject whilst quietly chuckling to myself about how AC and co would of exploded :nod: :nod:
So there are some strange ideas everywhere, not just in here. :shock:
:lol:

Yeah I've got mates who insist BB is not only the best 1st five in NZ but the best in the world! It doesn't get all PR style, the conversation remains civil, but their views won't be swayed. I think Steve Hansen's "playing behind a Rolls Royce pack" comment still carries a lot of weight with some fans when assessing Mounga's achievements and ability.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by booji boy »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?
Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
You say that as if the losses in those world cups were all down to the first five? :?

Have you not played rugby? Do you not realise it is difficult for the first five (in fact the whole backline) to do anything when your forward pack is getting smoked in front of you.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Enzedder »

Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
There will always be these debates. 90% of the argument is provincial loyalty and only 10% from genuine rugby nous.











(I may have made up those percentages)
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by jdogscoop »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:31 pm
jdogscoop wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:03 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:27 pm
jdogscoop wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:20 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am

Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.
Isn't this a discussion about first fives?
On 31 October 2015, Barrett scored the final try in the 2015 Rugby World Cup Final match against Australia, having been substituted on for the injured Nehe Milner-Skudder. Dan Carter converted his try to make the final score 34–17.
Thanks for confirming he scored a match winning try at an RWC. If only Merthens or Spencer or Mo'unga could have done that too.
What it also suggests is that he tends to play his best rugby wider out - as a super sub with more time and space.
Yes I agree he was dynamite as an impact player early on in his career. He won World Rugby Player of the year in 2016 and 2017 when he played 27 games. All playing at first five except 1 game. His win rate was 92% with 1 loss and 1 draw.
Which is the year Gats introduced the rush defence and BB's form fell off a cliff. The 2017 award was a joke which it sometimes is.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Dan54. »

booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:31 pm
Dan54. wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:10 pm Well the strange ideas aren't just held by the some posters in here I decided yesterday.
Was having a beer after a few holes of golf, and bit of discussion on AB team came up. A couple of the fellas thought BB should be first choice at 10, I said I thought RM, and then it got all PR posters sryle.
One of them assured me that RM couldn't and hadn't made the step up to test level, but said he would probably still get picked because he such a favourite of Fozzie's !! :lol: :lol:

I had to admit I just went onto some other subject whilst quietly chuckling to myself about how AC and co would of exploded :nod: :nod:
So there are some strange ideas everywhere, not just in here. :shock:
:lol:

Yeah I've got mates who insist BB is not only the best 1st five in NZ but the best in the world! It doesn't get all PR style, the conversation remains civil, but their views won't be swayed. I think Steve Hansen's "playing behind a Rolls Royce pack" comment still carries a lot of weight with some fans when assessing Mounga's achievements and ability.
Yep, and like in here they will pick out a test when he not played well as proof.
I still don't know why anyone has to pick one as 'The One' and so other must be rubbish etc.
I can get rubbished as being a BB fan , but just as much can be rubbished as RMo fan, see I think they both pretty good, I would pick RMo at moment, doesn't mean BB is crap etc. I same with almost any position, we got a few teat quality players in most positions, some are slightly better, but doesn't make the others crap.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by trapper »

Dan54. wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:06 pm
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:31 pm
Dan54. wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:10 pm Well the strange ideas aren't just held by the some posters in here I decided yesterday.
Was having a beer after a few holes of golf, and bit of discussion on AB team came up. A couple of the fellas thought BB should be first choice at 10, I said I thought RM, and then it got all PR posters sryle.
One of them assured me that RM couldn't and hadn't made the step up to test level, but said he would probably still get picked because he such a favourite of Fozzie's !! :lol: :lol:

I had to admit I just went onto some other subject whilst quietly chuckling to myself about how AC and co would of exploded :nod: :nod:
So there are some strange ideas everywhere, not just in here. :shock:
:lol:

Yeah I've got mates who insist BB is not only the best 1st five in NZ but the best in the world! It doesn't get all PR style, the conversation remains civil, but their views won't be swayed. I think Steve Hansen's "playing behind a Rolls Royce pack" comment still carries a lot of weight with some fans when assessing Mounga's achievements and ability.
Yep, and like in here they will pick out a test when he not played well as proof.
I still don't know why anyone has to pick one as 'The One' and so other must be rubbish etc.
I can get rubbished as being a BB fan , but just as much can be rubbished as RMo fan, see I think they both pretty good, I would pick RMo at moment, doesn't mean BB is crap etc. I same with almost any position, we got a few teat quality players in most positions, some are slightly better, but doesn't make the others crap.
Yep, we are pretty lucky to have two decent players to choose from. Hooker is another position we have real depth in but it never really gets argued about because we all know that who ever gets picked can do the job. But when it comes to our 10s and 15s all hell breaks loose. The loose trio gets a mild discussion occasionally but to nowhere near the level of passion of the 10 debate, unless it’s Akira of course, then the knives come out. :P
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by guy smiley »

Possibly because no other player determines the character of the team and how it plays the way the 10 does.

Last year, Otere Black made a great job of unleashing his potent back line, in the process pushing his own credentials as a potential Test player, as someone who can distribute well while not being an outstanding line breaker. He's still a playmaker, but I think we tend to view playmakers as spectacular action merchants more than as functional distributors.

Likewise, we can be dazzled by individual exploits, sheer speed over good distributing so that a ball hogging shuffler who crowds his backs for space is viewed as a champion player.

Sometimes, we get the best of all worlds... a fast player who reads the play well enough to know when to pass, when and where to kick or when to make an individual break. When I say sometimes, I mean twice.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Grandpa »

guy smiley wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:55 pm Possibly because no other player determines the character of the team and how it plays the way the 10 does.

Last year, Otere Black made a great job of unleashing his potent back line, in the process pushing his own credentials as a potential Test player, as someone who can distribute well while not being an outstanding line breaker. He's still a playmaker, but I think we tend to view playmakers as spectacular action merchants more than as functional distributors.

Likewise, we can be dazzled by individual exploits, sheer speed over good distributing so that a ball hogging shuffler who crowds his backs for space is viewed as a champion player.

Sometimes, we get the best of all worlds... a fast player who reads the play well enough to know when to pass, when and where to kick or when to make an individual break. When I say sometimes, I mean twice.
Carter and..... Nick Evans? :D
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by jdogscoop »

guy smiley wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:55 pm Possibly because no other player determines the character of the team and how it plays the way the 10 does.

Last year, Otere Black made a great job of unleashing his potent back line, in the process pushing his own credentials as a potential Test player, as someone who can distribute well while not being an outstanding line breaker. He's still a playmaker, but I think we tend to view playmakers as spectacular action merchants more than as functional distributors.

Likewise, we can be dazzled by individual exploits, sheer speed over good distributing so that a ball hogging shuffler who crowds his backs for space is viewed as a champion player.

Sometimes, we get the best of all worlds... a fast player who reads the play well enough to know when to pass, when and where to kick or when to make an individual break. When I say sometimes, I mean twice.
As someone whose number one team isn't the Crusaders, I endorse this.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by guy smiley »

Grandpa wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:26 am

Carter and..... Nick Evans? :D
:lol:
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by jdogscoop »

booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:31 pm
Dan54. wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:10 pm Well the strange ideas aren't just held by the some posters in here I decided yesterday.
Was having a beer after a few holes of golf, and bit of discussion on AB team came up. A couple of the fellas thought BB should be first choice at 10, I said I thought RM, and then it got all PR posters sryle.
One of them assured me that RM couldn't and hadn't made the step up to test level, but said he would probably still get picked because he such a favourite of Fozzie's !! :lol: :lol:

I had to admit I just went onto some other subject whilst quietly chuckling to myself about how AC and co would of exploded :nod: :nod:
So there are some strange ideas everywhere, not just in here. :shock:
:lol:

Yeah I've got mates who insist BB is not only the best 1st five in NZ but the best in the world! It doesn't get all PR style, the conversation remains civil, but their views won't be swayed. I think Steve Hansen's "playing behind a Rolls Royce pack" comment still carries a lot of weight with some fans when assessing Mounga's achievements and ability.
My mates unanimously back Mo'unga as the first choice 10. All grew up in and around rugby, and a couple played to decent level. The criticism is the same. Barrett attracts the bandwagon rugby fans through his running game, but can't steer a side around the park effectively from 10 against tier 1 sides. Noting, of course, that Barrett's running game benefits from the time and space he is afforded when he plays wider out. It's just a pity he has (loudly) stated he doesn't want to play out there any more.

How can you identify a bandwagon rugby fan? Dollars to doughnuts they will bring up Barrett's two World Rugby Player of the Year awards within the first 30 seconds. The first of which was fair enough given his stellar form against largely weak opposition. His second came despite his form rapidly cooling after his difficult outings against the Lions. He had enough new fanbois on the judging panel to get over the line regardless.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Dan54. »

Grandpa wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:26 am
guy smiley wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:55 pm Possibly because no other player determines the character of the team and how it plays the way the 10 does.

Last year, Otere Black made a great job of unleashing his potent back line, in the process pushing his own credentials as a potential Test player, as someone who can distribute well while not being an outstanding line breaker. He's still a playmaker, but I think we tend to view playmakers as spectacular action merchants more than as functional distributors.

Likewise, we can be dazzled by individual exploits, sheer speed over good distributing so that a ball hogging shuffler who crowds his backs for space is viewed as a champion player.

Sometimes, we get the best of all worlds... a fast player who reads the play well enough to know when to pass, when and where to kick or when to make an individual break. When I say sometimes, I mean twice.
Carter and..... Nick Evans? :D
:thumbup:
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Dan54. »

[quote="jdogscoop

How can you identify a bandwagon rugby fan? Dollars to doughnuts they will bring up Barrett's two World Rugby Player of the Year awards within the first 30 seconds. The first of which was fair enough given his stellar form against largely weak opposition. His second came despite his form rapidly cooling after his difficult outings against the Lions. He had enough new fanbois on the judging panel to get over the line regardless.
[/quote]

yep I think I notice a bandwagon fan, just they probably don't themselves. You know one that dismisses anyone elses claims and will make stuff up when someone is asked a question by press.
And will only pick up awards etc that suits them. You right about BB supporters may say he was WP of year twice , and RMo supporters will say won 5 Super title. Both are correct but........
And unfortunately a lot get a lot of their 'knowledge' by reading forums and watching the odd game on tv. Not all mind ,but frequently!
All sports have them , cricket, rugby , soccer and probably even NRL if the discussions I heard on work sites were anything to go by!
Last edited by Dan54. on Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Dan54. »

Enzedder wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:09 pm
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
There will always be these debates. 90% of the argument is provincial loyalty and only 10% from genuine rugby nous.











(I may have made up those percentages)
Probably pretty accurate for made up figures though NZer :nod: ;)
Last edited by Dan54. on Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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booji boy
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by booji boy »

Enzedder wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:09 pm
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
There will always be these debates. 90% of the argument is provincial loyalty and only 10% from genuine rugby nous.











(I may have made up those percentages)
Not necessarily. I always preferred Merhts even though I'm a Blues fan. I don't think Carlos was as bad as he's often made out to have been but Merhtens controlled a game better and it was no contest when it came to goal kicking.

I guess I'm in the 10%. :D
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by jdogscoop »

booji boy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:12 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:09 pm
Peteray wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am They have very different strengths... remember the Foxy v Carlos debates?
There will always be these debates. 90% of the argument is provincial loyalty and only 10% from genuine rugby nous.











(I may have made up those percentages)
Not necessarily. I always preferred Merhts even though I'm a Blues fan. I don't think Carlos was as bad as he's often made out to have been but Merhtens controlled a game better and it was no contest when it came to goal kicking.

I guess I'm in the 10%. :D
Same here. Mo'unga plays for the Crusaders and Barrett for the Blues. I support the Landers.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Sonny Blount »

jdogscoop wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:31 pm
Dan54. wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:10 pm Well the strange ideas aren't just held by the some posters in here I decided yesterday.
Was having a beer after a few holes of golf, and bit of discussion on AB team came up. A couple of the fellas thought BB should be first choice at 10, I said I thought RM, and then it got all PR posters sryle.
One of them assured me that RM couldn't and hadn't made the step up to test level, but said he would probably still get picked because he such a favourite of Fozzie's !! :lol: :lol:

I had to admit I just went onto some other subject whilst quietly chuckling to myself about how AC and co would of exploded :nod: :nod:
So there are some strange ideas everywhere, not just in here. :shock:
:lol:

Yeah I've got mates who insist BB is not only the best 1st five in NZ but the best in the world! It doesn't get all PR style, the conversation remains civil, but their views won't be swayed. I think Steve Hansen's "playing behind a Rolls Royce pack" comment still carries a lot of weight with some fans when assessing Mounga's achievements and ability.
My mates unanimously back Mo'unga as the first choice 10. All grew up in and around rugby, and a couple played to decent level. The criticism is the same. Barrett attracts the bandwagon rugby fans through his running game, but can't steer a side around the park effectively from 10 against tier 1 sides. Noting, of course, that Barrett's running game benefits from the time and space he is afforded when he plays wider out. It's just a pity he has (loudly) stated he doesn't want to play out there any more.

How can you identify a bandwagon rugby fan? Dollars to doughnuts they will bring up Barrett's two World Rugby Player of the Year awards within the first 30 seconds. The first of which was fair enough given his stellar form against largely weak opposition. His second came despite his form rapidly cooling after his difficult outings against the Lions. He had enough new fanbois on the judging panel to get over the line regardless.
That's exactly what I was thinking watching Beauden score 30 pts against Australia in 2018 - this guy could benefit from the time and space wider out.

You and your friends are rugby soothsayers JDog.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Dan54. »

[quote="Pakia Pakia
[/quote]


They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

[/quote]

And ironically Carter and Larkham were in same number of losing WC campaigns as Merhts and Carlos. So figures are just that and can be used and abused by any argument. ;)
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Eugenius »

Sonny Blount wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:59 pm
Eugenius wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:06 am
sinba556 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:23 am Jordie Barrett and rugby brain? He often makes poor decisions, both as an all black and hurricane. Doesnt fill me with confidence for All Blacks

Jordie and brain used in the same sentence?

That's the reason I think he should start for the All Blacks. One of the best heads for rugby for his age that you will ever see.

His great head for rugby pretty much lost us a couple of tests so far .... and counting .
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by booji boy »

Eugenius wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:05 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:59 pm
Eugenius wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:06 am
sinba556 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:23 am Jordie Barrett and rugby brain? He often makes poor decisions, both as an all black and hurricane. Doesnt fill me with confidence for All Blacks

Jordie and brain used in the same sentence?

That's the reason I think he should start for the All Blacks. One of the best heads for rugby for his age that you will ever see.

His great head for rugby pretty much lost us a couple of tests so far .... and counting .
:lol: You beat me to it!
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by jdogscoop »

Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:41 am
jdogscoop wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:46 am
booji boy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:31 pm
Dan54. wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:10 pm Well the strange ideas aren't just held by the some posters in here I decided yesterday.
Was having a beer after a few holes of golf, and bit of discussion on AB team came up. A couple of the fellas thought BB should be first choice at 10, I said I thought RM, and then it got all PR posters sryle.
One of them assured me that RM couldn't and hadn't made the step up to test level, but said he would probably still get picked because he such a favourite of Fozzie's !! :lol: :lol:

I had to admit I just went onto some other subject whilst quietly chuckling to myself about how AC and co would of exploded :nod: :nod:
So there are some strange ideas everywhere, not just in here. :shock:
:lol:

Yeah I've got mates who insist BB is not only the best 1st five in NZ but the best in the world! It doesn't get all PR style, the conversation remains civil, but their views won't be swayed. I think Steve Hansen's "playing behind a Rolls Royce pack" comment still carries a lot of weight with some fans when assessing Mounga's achievements and ability.
My mates unanimously back Mo'unga as the first choice 10. All grew up in and around rugby, and a couple played to decent level. The criticism is the same. Barrett attracts the bandwagon rugby fans through his running game, but can't steer a side around the park effectively from 10 against tier 1 sides. Noting, of course, that Barrett's running game benefits from the time and space he is afforded when he plays wider out. It's just a pity he has (loudly) stated he doesn't want to play out there any more.

How can you identify a bandwagon rugby fan? Dollars to doughnuts they will bring up Barrett's two World Rugby Player of the Year awards within the first 30 seconds. The first of which was fair enough given his stellar form against largely weak opposition. His second came despite his form rapidly cooling after his difficult outings against the Lions. He had enough new fanbois on the judging panel to get over the line regardless.
That's exactly what I was thinking watching Beauden score 30 pts against Australia in 2018 - this guy could benefit from the time and space wider out.

You and your friends are rugby soothsayers JDog.
I was there. Trust me, he didn't need to be wider out to find time and space in that game. The Wallabies gave him plenty. A year earlier the Lions gave him none.

Predictable results followed in both cases.
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Re: All Black squad selection thread

Post by Kiwias »

Eugenius wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:05 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:59 pm
Eugenius wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:06 am
sinba556 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:23 am Jordie Barrett and rugby brain? He often makes poor decisions, both as an all black and hurricane. Doesnt fill me with confidence for All Blacks

Jordie and brain used in the same sentence?

That's the reason I think he should start for the All Blacks. One of the best heads for rugby for his age that you will ever see.

His great head for rugby pretty much lost us a couple of tests so far .... and counting .
Jordie is 24 now and I just thought I'd toss in the fact that Daniel Carter was 23 when he played against the B&I Lions in 2005, exhibiting a pretty decent head for rugby.
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