Planet Rugby Forum

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:59 am
I've avoided your repeated references to the WPOTY award because I figured you're trolling with it. There has been enough conjecture or outright scepticsm over that award on enough occasions to suggest it's at best flawed or worse, a bit of a sop. A joke. Not to be taken seriously.

An Any Fat Tourist award, basically. Nice to have and certainly deserved in some cases but not always a fair indicator of the hard work done by others to get one person to the top.

The argument has always been about if the best player for that year won the award. Was there someone better than Barrett in 2017? Maybe but every player who won it still played well. Beauden Barrett played well in 2017.

If any fat tourist can win it then why hasn't Mo'unga who is now 27. Mo'unga has pulled games out of the bag often when the Crusaders have been playing poorly. Why hasn't he done that at test level? Why couldn't he do it for the All Blacks in 2019 and win player of the year?

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:59 am
Quiet seasons being defined by injury, yeah?

I will grant you he had some injury struggles but he also had a long period where we would just shovel the ball on not really setting up anything. Similar to the Beauden Barrett would shovel the ball on.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:09 am

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:31 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:02 am

booji boy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:37 pm

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am

Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.

You say that as if the losses in those world cups were all down to the first five?

Have you not played rugby? Do you not realise it is difficult for the first five (in fact the whole backline) to do anything when your forward pack is getting smoked in front of you.

I agree that a 10 will have little chance to guide their team to a win when the forwards are dominated.

None of the forward packs were smoked in any of the games we lost in 95/99/03.

Merthens did miss a crucial drop kick and Spencer did throw an intercept pass to Mortlock.

Stephen Donald of all people made his crucial penalty in 2011 when it was needed.

* Incorrect buzzer sound *

The 2003 NZ pack got smoked by the Wallabies.

The Wallabies absolutely ragdolled us in that semi, something like the way we were shamed by England in the 2019 semi.

I'm glad you are supporting Spencer too.

Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:01 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:02 am

booji boy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:37 pm

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am

booji boy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:30 am

Wasn't it Foxy vs Frano Botica in the 1980's and Merhtens vs Carlos in the 1990's?

Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.

You say that as if the losses in those world cups were all down to the first five?

Have you not played rugby? Do you not realise it is difficult for the first five (in fact the whole backline) to do anything when your forward pack is getting smoked in front of you.

I agree that a 10 will have little chance to guide their team to a win when the forwards are dominated.

None of the forward packs were smoked in any of the games we lost in 95/99/03.

Merthens did miss a crucial drop kick and Spencer did throw an intercept pass to Mortlock.

Stephen Donald of all people made his crucial penalty in 2011 when it was needed.

hell I thought we got pretty well smoked all over field in 95, we got bugger all front foot ball, and Boks smacked anyone who had it including Jonah. If I remember watching it, there was hardly a place we were on top , and if we lost because Merths missed a kick?

The Springboks weren't on top either. It was parity all the way through and it was down to which 10 kicked the most points. Joel Stransky kicked more. The two sides were even as it was in 2011 when Donald kicked the goal that mattered.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:17 am

Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:01 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:02 am

booji boy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:37 pm

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:46 am

Maybe that's what he meant.

There wasn't actually a lot of difference to how Merthens and Spencer played. They had much more in common with each other compared to the NH based first fives at the time. They both had good running games, kicking from hand, and good passing games.

They were both much more attacking than NH fly halves and they were both defensive flakes when you compare them to the likes of Larkham, WIlkinson and Carter.

They both failed to win World Cups ( both crumbled ) where as Larkham, Wilkinson and Carter all won World Cups.

Spencers record for the AB's was marginally better but neither had records that came close to matching Carter's, Cruden's, or Barretts who won a much higher percentage of games and all were part of World Cup winning teams.

RMo has tough shoes to fill.

You say that as if the losses in those world cups were all down to the first five?

Have you not played rugby? Do you not realise it is difficult for the first five (in fact the whole backline) to do anything when your forward pack is getting smoked in front of you.

I agree that a 10 will have little chance to guide their team to a win when the forwards are dominated.

None of the forward packs were smoked in any of the games we lost in 95/99/03.

Merthens did miss a crucial drop kick and Spencer did throw an intercept pass to Mortlock.

Stephen Donald of all people made his crucial penalty in 2011 when it was needed.

hell I thought we got pretty well smoked all over field in 95, we got bugger all front foot ball, and Boks smacked anyone who had it including Jonah. If I remember watching it, there was hardly a place we were on top , and if we lost because Merths missed a kick?

The Springboks weren't on top either. It was parity all the way through and it was down to which 10 kicked the most points. Joel Stransky kicked more. The two sides were even as it was in 2011 when Donald kicked the goal that mattered.

Or perhaps their teams put them in a position to kick them?

As a crusaders supporter... I don't want any Barrett's near the squad.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:15 am

Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:09 am

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:31 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:02 am

booji boy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:37 pm

You say that as if the losses in those world cups were all down to the first five?

Have you not played rugby? Do you not realise it is difficult for the first five (in fact the whole backline) to do anything when your forward pack is getting smoked in front of you.

I agree that a 10 will have little chance to guide their team to a win when the forwards are dominated.

None of the forward packs were smoked in any of the games we lost in 95/99/03.

Merthens did miss a crucial drop kick and Spencer did throw an intercept pass to Mortlock.

Stephen Donald of all people made his crucial penalty in 2011 when it was needed.

* Incorrect buzzer sound *

The 2003 NZ pack got smoked by the Wallabies.

The Wallabies absolutely ragdolled us in that semi, something like the way we were shamed by England in the 2019 semi.

I'm glad you are supporting Spencer too.

I would not go that far but I will state that neither Spenser nor Rangi cost us that test.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:52 pm

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:15 am

Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:09 am

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:31 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:02 am

I agree that a 10 will have little chance to guide their team to a win when the forwards are dominated.

None of the forward packs were smoked in any of the games we lost in 95/99/03.

Merthens did miss a crucial drop kick and Spencer did throw an intercept pass to Mortlock.

Stephen Donald of all people made his crucial penalty in 2011 when it was needed.

* Incorrect buzzer sound *

The 2003 NZ pack got smoked by the Wallabies.

The Wallabies absolutely ragdolled us in that semi, something like the way we were shamed by England in the 2019 semi.

I'm glad you are supporting Spencer too.

I would not go that far but I will state that neither Spenser nor Rangi cost us that test.

It's nothing personal. Just one more fvcked up out of position selection by NZ coaches in some of the biggest matches going. There have been plenty since (See Barrett, S (2019)).

Nothing will ever surpass Hart’s stupidity in 1999, trying to shoehorn four players into three positions.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:00 pm Nothing will ever surpass Hart’s stupidity in 1999, trying to shoehorn four players into three positions.

Centre, one of the great Kiwi selector cluster fucks.

Muliaina, MacDonald, Cullen.

All very accomplished fullbacks, none of them centre three quarters.

Jesus H. f**king Christ.

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:04 pm

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:00 pm Nothing will ever surpass Hart’s stupidity in 1999, trying to shoehorn four players into three positions.

Centre, one of the great Kiwi selector cluster fucks.

Muliaina, MacDonald, Cullen.

All very accomplished fullbacks, none of them centre three quarters.

Jesus H. f**king Christ.

Mils never played under Hart. Though did start out as a centre. I thought quite a good one for the Blues. And was his preference at the time.

Did Hart convert Umaga into a centre? Or was that later?

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:04 pm

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:00 pm Nothing will ever surpass Hart’s stupidity in 1999, trying to shoehorn four players into three positions.

Centre, one of the great Kiwi selector cluster fucks.

Muliaina, MacDonald, Cullen.

All very accomplished fullbacks, none of them centre three quarters.

Jesus H. f**king Christ.

Mils never played under Hart. Though did start out as a centre. I thought quite a good one for the Blues. And was his preference at the time.

Did Hart convert Umaga into a centre? Or was that later?

Yeah, those were just a few thoughts on some RWC selection shockers over the years.

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:04 pm

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:00 pm Nothing will ever surpass Hart’s stupidity in 1999, trying to shoehorn four players into three positions.

Centre, one of the great Kiwi selector cluster fucks.

Muliaina, MacDonald, Cullen.

All very accomplished fullbacks, none of them centre three quarters.

Jesus H. f**king Christ.

Mils never played under Hart. Though did start out as a centre. I thought quite a good one for the Blues. And was his preference at the time.

Did Hart convert Umaga into a centre? Or was that later?

That was later under Smith. Umaga was part of the reason for Cullen at centre. Hart wanted Cullen, Wilson, Umaga and Lomu on the field at the same time. So he shifted the worlds best fullback to centre and one of the two best wingers, Wilson, to fullback. Worked a treat from memory. About as successful as the dual playmakers in 2019.

Tbf the use of bench/impact players was not in use as it is now. Today you'd start with three of those guys and maybe have Lomu or Umaga on the bench. Most likely Umaga as he was more versatile than Lomu but imagine a fresh Lomu coming on at the 60 minute mark.

booji boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:08 pm

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:04 pm

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:00 pm Nothing will ever surpass Hart’s stupidity in 1999, trying to shoehorn four players into three positions.

Centre, one of the great Kiwi selector cluster fucks.

Muliaina, MacDonald, Cullen.

All very accomplished fullbacks, none of them centre three quarters.

Jesus H. f**king Christ.

Mils never played under Hart. Though did start out as a centre. I thought quite a good one for the Blues. And was his preference at the time.

Did Hart convert Umaga into a centre? Or was that later?

That was later under Smith. Umaga was part of the reason for Cullen at centre. Hart wanted Cullen, Wilson, Umaga and Lomu on the field at the same time. So he shifted the worlds best fullback to centre and one of the two best wingers, Wilson, to fullback. Worked a treat from memory. About as successful as the dual playmakers in 2019.

Tbf the use of bench/impact players was not in use as it is now. Today you'd start with three of those guys and maybe have Lomu or Umaga on the bench. Most likely Umaga as he was more versatile than Lomu but imagine a fresh Lomu coming on at the 60 minute mark.

I was at the 99 world cup game against England. The backline went well that day. But the pack didn't look strong even then. Later the French destroyed us .. by rag dolliing the forwards. The backs never stood a chance...

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm Mils never played under Hart. Though did start out as a centre. I thought quite a good one for the Blues. And was his preference at the time.

Correct. Mils was a utility back for the Blues up until 2003 where he played at centre for the season. He played brilliantly at centre which was the last time the Blues won a Super Rugby trophy and he was selected for the AB's and then moved to fullback by Mitchell/Deans which turned out to be a great choice.

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm Did Hart convert Umaga into a centre? Or was that later?

Umaga converted himself to centre. He publicly stated that was his desire and goal claiming he was no longer faster enough for the wing.

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 pm I was at the 99 world cup game against England. The backline went well that day. But the pack didn't look strong even then. Later the French destroyed us .. by rag dolliing the forwards. The backs never stood a chance...

I decided to re-watch the game again and that's not true at all. The forwards got enough ball to win the game and 10 minutes into the second half we were leading 24 - 10 despite some abysmal defence from Merthens and Wilson and despite Merthens kicking away good ball with aimless kicks and missing three shots at goal.

Our backs did not play well generally but Lomu and Cullen did play well. Christian Cullen managed to save some tries after defensive lapses from Wilson and Merthens in the first half. He also put Lomu into space and ran well.

Merthens passing was also poor though out the game and the ABs were penalised a couple of times for shepherding off his pass.

Merthens also gave up two shots at goal right in front of the posts. One was from his own quick tap. His game was completely off accept at the end when he started passing a lot better and running the ball.

After Alama Ieremia left the field and was replaced by Daryl Gibson the back line defence really fell apart and we kept kicking it back to them poorly and not kicking the ball out.

The French scored most of their tries through their electric backs in broken play. There was only one try that was set up off the back of a set piece.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:00 pm Nothing will ever surpass Hart’s stupidity in 1999, trying to shoehorn four players into three positions.

Hart made a mistake yes but no doubt he made those choices in conjunction with his assistant coaches Wayne Smith and Peter Sloane.

The selection was all based around golden boy Jeff Wilson fancying himself at fullback. He had been playing there for Otago and for the Highlanders and had been in good form.

It turns out he was a major defensive liability at fullback and Umaga didn't play well either.

Merthens played a major part in the loss though. He was completely off his game.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:40 pm

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm Mils never played under Hart. Though did start out as a centre. I thought quite a good one for the Blues. And was his preference at the time.

Correct. Mils was a utility back for the Blues up until 2003 where he played at centre for the season. He played brilliantly at centre which was the last time the Blues won a Super Rugby trophy and he was selected for the AB's and then moved to fullback by Mitchell/Deans which turned out to be a great choice.

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm Did Hart convert Umaga into a centre? Or was that later?

Umaga converted himself to centre. He publicly stated that was his desire and goal claiming he was no longer faster enough for the wing.

I was thinking about that watching Nonu play on the wing in an old Canes re-run. They both made successful conversions inwards... I don't think Reiko is in the same mould as Tana. He's more like Nonu, he'll be a work in progress for a while and he needs a couple of seasons of soup at 13.

Flockwitt wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:04 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:40 pm

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm Mils never played under Hart. Though did start out as a centre. I thought quite a good one for the Blues. And was his preference at the time.

Correct. Mils was a utility back for the Blues up until 2003 where he played at centre for the season. He played brilliantly at centre which was the last time the Blues won a Super Rugby trophy and he was selected for the AB's and then moved to fullback by Mitchell/Deans which turned out to be a great choice.

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:55 pm Did Hart convert Umaga into a centre? Or was that later?

Umaga converted himself to centre. He publicly stated that was his desire and goal claiming he was no longer faster enough for the wing.

I was thinking about that watching Nonu play on the wing in an old Canes re-run. They both made successful conversions inwards... I don't think Reiko is in the same mould as Tana. He's more like Nonu, he'll be a work in progress for a while and he needs a couple of seasons of soup at 13.

I agree and that is a good assessment.

I also think Rieko has more upside than Umaga at centre. Time will tell if that plays out.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am I also think Rieko has more upside than Umaga at centre. Time will tell if that plays out.

I can't imagine Tana Umaga ever costing us a test win because he wanted to maximise how good we looked when scoring a run away try.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:19 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am I also think Rieko has more upside than Umaga at centre. Time will tell if that plays out.

I can't imagine Tana Umaga ever costing us a test win because he wanted to maximise how good we looked when scoring a run away try.

Virtually every try Reiko scored for the ABs was scored in the same way and no one complained about that when he was the hottest wing on the planet.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:44 am

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:19 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am I also think Rieko has more upside than Umaga at centre. Time will tell if that plays out.

I can't imagine Tana Umaga ever costing us a test win because he wanted to maximise how good we looked when scoring a run away try.

Virtually every try Reiko scored for the ABs was scored in the same way and no one complained about that when he was the hottest wing on the planet.

Sorry, I'm no sure what your point is? You seem to be trying to justify his terrible no-try against the Wallabies last year that could have cost us the Bledisloe Cup.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:19 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am I also think Rieko has more upside than Umaga at centre. Time will tell if that plays out.

I can't imagine Tana Umaga ever costing us a test win because he wanted to maximise how good we looked when scoring a run away try.

Tana had Meg and Pornstar doing that instead

Updated squad

Props: Aidan Ross, Ethan de Groot, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Tamaiti Williams, Karl Tu’inukuafe
Hookers: Codie Taylor, Dane Coles, Asafo Aumua
Locks: Sam Whitelock (c), Scott Barrett, Brodie Retallick, Tupou Vaa'i, Paripari Parkinson
Backrow: Dalton Papali'i, Luke Jacobson, Akira Ioane, Ethan Blackadder, Ardie Savea, Hoskins Sotutu

Halfbacks: Aaron Smith, TJ Perenara, Brad Weber
First Fives: Beauden Barrett, Richie Mo'unga
Midfielders: Anton Lienart-Brown, Rieko Ioane, David Havili, Leicester Fainga'anuku
Outside backs: Jordie Barrett, Damien McKenzie, Sevu Reece, Jona Nareki, Salesi Rayasi, Bryce Heem, Will Jordan

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:05 am Updated squad

Props: Aidan Ross, Ethan de Groot, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Tamaiti Williams, Karl Tu’inukuafe
Hookers: Codie Taylor, Dane Coles, Asafo Aumua
Locks: Sam Whitelock (c), Scott Barrett, Brodie Retallick, Tupou Vaa'i, Paripari Parkinson
Backrow: Dalton Papali'i, Luke Jacobson, Akira Ioane, Ethan Blackadder, Ardie Savea, Hoskins Sotutu

Halfbacks: Aaron Smith, TJ Perenara, Brad Weber
First Fives: Beauden Barrett, Richie Mo'unga
Midfielders: Anton Lienart-Brown, Rieko Ioane, David Havili, Leicester Fainga'anuku
Outside backs: Jordie Barrett, Damien McKenzie, Sevu Reece, Jona Nareki, Salesi Rayasi, Bryce Heem, Will Jordan

Great effort. My only question mark would be Bryce Heem. No way he's making the squad.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:13 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:05 am Updated squad

Props: Aidan Ross, Ethan de Groot, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Tamaiti Williams, Karl Tu’inukuafe
Hookers: Codie Taylor, Dane Coles, Asafo Aumua
Locks: Sam Whitelock (c), Scott Barrett, Brodie Retallick, Tupou Vaa'i, Paripari Parkinson
Backrow: Dalton Papali'i, Luke Jacobson, Akira Ioane, Ethan Blackadder, Ardie Savea, Hoskins Sotutu

Halfbacks: Aaron Smith, TJ Perenara, Brad Weber
First Fives: Beauden Barrett, Richie Mo'unga
Midfielders: Anton Lienart-Brown, Rieko Ioane, David Havili, Leicester Fainga'anuku
Outside backs: Jordie Barrett, Damien McKenzie, Sevu Reece, Jona Nareki, Salesi Rayasi, Bryce Heem, Will Jordan

Great effort. My only question mark would be Bryce Heem. No way he's making the squad.

He's easily the best 14 in the country. It's the old saying. If you're old enough you're good enough.

Never the less I think you are right so I've adjusted my squad.

Props: Aidan Ross, Ethan de Groot, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Tamaiti Williams, Karl Tu’inukuafe
Hookers: Codie Taylor, Dane Coles, Asafo Aumua
Locks: Sam Whitelock (c), Scott Barrett, Brodie Retallick, Tupou Vaa'i, Paripari Parkinson
Backrow: Dalton Papali'i, Luke Jacobson, Akira Ioane, Ethan Blackadder, Ardie Savea, Hoskins Sotutu

Halfbacks: Aaron Smith, TJ Perenara, Brad Weber
First Fives: Beauden Barrett, Richie Mo'unga
Midfielders: Anton Lienart-Brown, Rieko Ioane, David Havili, Leicester Fainga'anuku
Outside backs: Jordie Barrett, Damien McKenzie, AJ Lam, Jona Nareki, Salesi Rayasi, Zarn Sullivan, Will Jordan

For me they don’t take that many outside backs - so out goes lam and Sullivan, and I think Reece is in (so out goes nareki)

In the forwards my guess the two spaces are added there:
Lock - Pat T
Back row - the ginger bloke from Auck (Tom Robinson?)

Assumes DMAC is 3rd choice 10.

I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

Is Coles worth persisting with? I know he is a great player n all but he is a bit injury prone and he is not getting any younger and that young hooker from the Chiefs is pretty bloody good. Two years out it’s probably worth thinking about blooding a new hooker.

trapper wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am Is Coles worth persisting with? I know he is a great player n all but he is a bit injury prone and he is not getting any younger and that young hooker from the Chiefs is pretty bloody good. Two years out it’s probably worth thinking about blooding a new hooker.

Does Coles still warrant a 2 or 16 jersey?

A: Bloody oath.

He stays.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

Four tries in 8 games? I guess the All Blacks might consider that mediocre. Pretty much any other international team would consider it pretty bloody good, I would argue.

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:51 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

Four tries in 8 games? I guess the All Blacks might consider that mediocre. Pretty much any other international team would consider it pretty bloody good, I would argue.

That’s a hell of a lot better than Caleb Clarke’s one try in 5 tests.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

He's the form 14 in NZ.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:00 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

He's the form 14 in NZ.

That's laughable. I'd take Jonah Lowe over him. There's daylight between Heem and the rest. Even Julian Savea is in better form at 14 than Reece.

trapper wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:44 am

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:51 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

Four tries in 8 games? I guess the All Blacks might consider that mediocre. Pretty much any other international team would consider it pretty bloody good, I would argue.

That’s a hell of a lot better than Caleb Clarke’s one try in 5 tests.

Caleb Clarke is at a similar level to Reece as an All Black winger IMO.

trapper wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am Is Coles worth persisting with? I know he is a great player n all but he is a bit injury prone and he is not getting any younger and that young hooker from the Chiefs is pretty bloody good. Two years out it’s probably worth thinking about blooding a new hooker.

That's a valid question that is difficult to answer. Kevin Mealamu was around 36 at the RWC in 2015. I think Coles is still stronger at the lineout than Aumua and Taukeiaho

AB wingers ranked from 2011 to 2020

1. Ben Smith
2. Cory Jane
3. Julian Savea
4. Rieko Ioane
5. Israel Dagg
6. Richard Kahui
7. NMS
8. Waisake Naholo
9. George Bridge
10. Sevu Reece
11. Caleb Clarke
12. Setareki Tamanivalu
13. Jordie Barrett

I haven't include Will Jordan because he just had a short cameo. Dagg would be higher up on the fullbacks list.

A few years out from the World Cup I believe we need to try players with more upside on the wing than what Reece can offer. These would be players like Will Jordan, Salesi Rayasi, Jona Nareki and AJ Lam.

trapper wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:44 am

jdogscoop wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:51 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

Four tries in 8 games? I guess the All Blacks might consider that mediocre. Pretty much any other international team would consider it pretty bloody good, I would argue.

That’s a hell of a lot better than Caleb Clarke’s one try in 5 tests.

Clarke is probably lucky he got to make the proactive decision to fvck off to sevens for the time being.

That said, it's hard to predict the make up of Bananas Foster's squad. Maybe the Wallabies will do us a favour by dominating the ABs this year and we'll get to fvck the cruiser off.

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:05 am

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:00 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

He's the form 14 in NZ.

That's laughable. I'd take Jonah Lowe over him. There's daylight between Heem and the rest. Even Julian Savea is in better form at 14 than Reece.

My advice is that for trolling to be effective it must be slightly believable.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:05 am

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:00 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:32 am I don't think there is any value in continuing with Sevu Reece. He doesn't have any additional upside and is a mediocre All Black wing.

He's the form 14 in NZ.

That's laughable. I'd take Jonah Lowe over him. There's daylight between Heem and the rest. Even Julian Savea is in better form at 14 than Reece.

My advice is that for trolling to be effective it must be slightly believable.

Plausible trolling is best trolling.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 am

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:05 am That's laughable. I'd take Jonah Lowe over him. There's daylight between Heem and the rest. Even Julian Savea is in better form at 14 than Reece.

My advice is that for trolling to be effective it must be slightly believable.

If you think Reece is the form 14 you are living in your own Crusader themed fantasy. In no way is he close to being the form 14.

At Super Rugby level he's also half the player of what he was in 2019.