Death Penalty

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blindcider
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by blindcider »

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
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inactionman
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by inactionman »

blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
Hear, hear.

Glad there's no reference to the deterrent effect either, as if life imprisonment wasn't something a person would want to avoid.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by bimboman »

blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

What a brilliant summary of the main arguments and the moral position required.
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koroke hangareka
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by koroke hangareka »

blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
Well said.
towny
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by towny »

MungoMan wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:31 am
towny wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:31 pm I would be curious to know how many people enthusiastically support:

1. Capital punishment, or in other words they want the government to have the power to kill people based on what they claim they did......


AND


2. Policing of online and other media to eliminate misinformation, or in other words, the government having the power to determine what is truth and what is misinformation.



Experience suggests that if men cannot struggle on behalf of a just cause because that just cause was victorious in an earlier generation, then they will struggle against the just cause. They will struggle for the sake of struggle. They will struggle, in other words, out of a certain boredom: for they cannot imagine living in a world without struggle. And if the greater part of the world in which they live is characterized by peaceful and prosperous liberal democracy, then they will struggle against that peace and prosperity, and against democracy.
Francis Fukuyama 1992
Anyone posting the words of that State Department wang Francis Fukyomama in support of their own argument is actively sabotaging that argument.
You don't think that 30 year old quote has merit? I just saw people chanting "USA" ransack their own parliament in the name of 'freedom' - I can't think of how else to explain it.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by towny »

blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
:thumbup:
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Mog The Almighty »

blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

In fact, it is not ucommon for perpetrators of crimes that may warrant such a thing (e.g. Brevik) to wish for execution, he is not the only one. And I don't think it acts as a deterant either.

If, in a hypothetical world, we could be absolutely sure of the guilt of, for example, someone who has kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered children (and there are such cases), I don't think anyone is being particularly moraly superior for keeping that person alive as opposed to humane execution.

"We diminish ourselves as people" doesn't really cut it. We're diminshing ourself as people by way of humane execution, but not by locking people into concrete boxes for their entire life? At the same time we are willing to accept certain numbers of innocent young people being killed on our nations roads every year just so as not to enforce an inconvenient speed limit? Give me a break!
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A5D5E5
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Re: Death Penalty

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

As you have said before, your views on the death penalty are not that it is a punishment nor a deterrent, but simply that the cost of keeping them alive in prison is too high. This is clearly an economic argument based on the idea that they will be in jail for decades.

So if, say, I was to commit an abhorrent crime at age 75 would I escape the death penalty? How about if I had smoked 40 a day for years and was 60 when I committed the crime so had a short life expectancy?

Would you serve the death penalty on somebody who committed a lesser but still awful crime when in their early 20s so they still had decades of jail time ahead of them? Would this depend upon their potential earning capacity after they leave jail?

Would you perhaps be more lenient for people who had paid a lot of tax before committing their crime or harsher for people who had always been a net recipient from the state?

You may think I am trivialising your point of view, and that is not my intention. I'm trying to show how putting an economic judgement on the death penalty will throw up some significant inconsistencies.
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inactionman
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by inactionman »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

In fact, it is not ucommon for perpetrators of crimes that may warrant such a thing (e.g. Brevik) to wish for execution, he is not the only one. And I don't think it acts as a deterant either.

If, in a hypothetical world, we could be absolutely sure of the guilt of, for example, someone who has kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered children (and there are such cases), I don't think anyone is being particularly moraly superior for keeping that person alive as opposed to humane execution.

"We diminish ourselves as people" doesn't really cut it. We're diminshing ourself as people by way of humane execution, but not by locking people into concrete boxes for their entire life? At the same time we are willing to accept certain numbers of innocent young people being killed on our nations roads every year just so as not to enforce an inconvenient speed limit? Give me a break!
It's not a tricky concept - we're not 'keeping alive', the default is we do not kill where there is a perfectly viable and entirely deterministic choice not to.

Comparing to car deaths is spurious - if we could, we would choose for people not to die in car crashes. That we accept risk is an entirely different concept.

Even in cases of war, we risk life and accept (and cause) death as a cost of some broader/higher goal - whether we agree with it or not. We have war crimes defined in statute for where people kill outside of these terms. We do not accept killing where there is a clear option not to.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Mog The Almighty »

A5D5E5 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

As you have said before, your views on the death penalty are not that it is a punishment nor a deterrent, but simply that the cost of keeping them alive in prison is too high. This is clearly an economic argument based on the idea that they will be in jail for decades.
That's just a small part of it, the economics.

I believe the victims, family and society in general would feel better knowing that such an individual is no longer around. We have heard again and again from victims that they only really find any peace when that happens (usually after decades of imprisonment).

Also, I really don't see how it's morally superior to lock someone in a box for their entire life.

Getting rid of individuals who are clearly wired in a manner that we can only describe as "evil", if that word has any meaning at all, are unrepentant, and whose guilt is assured, simply seems like the most logical move from a societal viewpoint. Locking them up in a box for the rest of their life instead, just so we can all feel a little morally pious (never mind how the victims feel about it) in ourselves seems like a half-assed solution.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Mog The Almighty »

inactionman wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:39 pm Comparing to car deaths is spurious - if we could, we would choose for people not to die in car crashes. That we accept risk is an entirely different concept.
We could choose for far less people to die in car crashes. Reduce the speed limit to 20, everywhere. Is that inconvenience worth saving the lives of thousands of people a year? Apparently not.

I don't want to turn the thread into a debate about road safety though. The point is simply that this sudden all encompassing concern for the sanctity of life, even that of child-raping murderers, is not convincing to me.
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inactionman
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by inactionman »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:45 pm
inactionman wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:39 pm Comparing to car deaths is spurious - if we could, we would choose for people not to die in car crashes. That we accept risk is an entirely different concept.
We could choose for far less people to die in car crashes. Reduce the speed limit to 20, everywhere. Is that inconvenience worth saving the lives of thousands of people a year? Apparently not.

I don't want to turn the thread into a debate about road safety though. The point is simply that all encompassing concern for the sanctity of life, even that of child-raping murderers, is not convincing to me.
We are not actively, specifically, decisively, deliberately killing them when we could avoid doing so. We're constantly mitigating risk through thing such as increased safety feature requirement on cars, at additional cost. We're - in all aspects of society - trying to reduce death, not increase it.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by A5D5E5 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 pm
A5D5E5 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

As you have said before, your views on the death penalty are not that it is a punishment nor a deterrent, but simply that the cost of keeping them alive in prison is too high. This is clearly an economic argument based on the idea that they will be in jail for decades.
That's just a small part of it, the economics.

I believe the victims, family and society in general would feel better knowing that such an individual is no longer around. We have heard again and again from victims that they only really find any peace when that happens (usually after decades of imprisonment).

Also, I really don't see how it's morally superior to lock someone in a box for their entire life.

Getting rid of individuals who are clearly wired in a manner that we can only describe as "evil", if that word has any meaning at all, are unrepentant, and whose guilt is assured, simply seems like the most logical move from a societal viewpoint. Locking them up in a box for the rest of their life instead, just so we can all feel a little morally pious (never mind how the victims feel about it) in ourselves seems like a half-assed solution.
If we were to judge sentences based on what victims want, I take it you would also be in favour of physical castration, beating people to death, locking people up for decades for minor infractions, summary justice without due process, blinding, crippling, pillories, various forms of torture, death by stoning and the like.

Should we also have different penalties depending on whether the victim and their family are of the "forgive and move on" persuasion or perhaps take a more "medieval" view of justice?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Mog The Almighty »

A5D5E5 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:54 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 pm
A5D5E5 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

As you have said before, your views on the death penalty are not that it is a punishment nor a deterrent, but simply that the cost of keeping them alive in prison is too high. This is clearly an economic argument based on the idea that they will be in jail for decades.
That's just a small part of it, the economics.

I believe the victims, family and society in general would feel better knowing that such an individual is no longer around. We have heard again and again from victims that they only really find any peace when that happens (usually after decades of imprisonment).

Also, I really don't see how it's morally superior to lock someone in a box for their entire life.

Getting rid of individuals who are clearly wired in a manner that we can only describe as "evil", if that word has any meaning at all, are unrepentant, and whose guilt is assured, simply seems like the most logical move from a societal viewpoint. Locking them up in a box for the rest of their life instead, just so we can all feel a little morally pious (never mind how the victims feel about it) in ourselves seems like a half-assed solution.
If we were to judge sentences based on what victims want, I take it you would also be in favour of physical castration, beating people to death, locking people up for decades for minor infractions, summary justice without due process, blinding, crippling, pillories, various forms of torture, death by stoning and the like.

Should we also have different penalties depending on whether the victim and their family are of the "forgive and move on" persuasion or perhaps take a more "medieval" view of justice?
Once again, it's not about revenge or punishment. I seem to rememeber even in the cases where the victims offered forgiveness, many have also said they didn't really move until the criminal had died. Of course I'm just talking anecdotaly from the top of my head, f-cked if I know really.

These are all just small parts of a bigger picture. In the end it just doesn't seem very logical to lock someone up in a cell for the entire life just so that we can feel better about ourselves. Because if that's not the reason, what is? I just don't get it, there doesn't seem to be any tangible benefit to anyone involved. Maybe for the child-murdering-rapist, but not for anyone else.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by blindcider »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

In fact, it is not ucommon for perpetrators of crimes that may warrant such a thing (e.g. Brevik) to wish for execution, he is not the only one. And I don't think it acts as a deterant either.

If, in a hypothetical world, we could be absolutely sure of the guilt of, for example, someone who has kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered children (and there are such cases), I don't think anyone is being particularly moraly superior for keeping that person alive as opposed to humane execution.

"We diminish ourselves as people" doesn't really cut it. We're diminshing ourself as people by way of humane execution, but not by locking people into concrete boxes for their entire life? At the same time we are willing to accept certain numbers of innocent young people being killed on our nations roads every year just so as not to enforce an inconvenient speed limit? Give me a break!
Your hypothetical is unachievable so whats the point in discussing it?

If you aren't doing it as a punishment then what is the point? Locking someone in prison does not necessarily correspond to locking someone in a concrete box 24/7. Modern society should be looking at prison environments and looking to improve the facilities. You've also deliberately missed the points I was making about trying to get some social contribution from these individuals and the appropriate safe environment for mentally damaged individuals, some of whom society has failed for their whole lives.

I take it as someone who supports the cause you would be quite prepared to perform the humane murder yourself. If then it came out later that the 100% confirmed guilty person had been convicted on false evidence or a coerced confession how would you then feel?

Your point about driving is so meaningless a comparison as to be completely irrelevant and I wont waste any more time discussing it.
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Re: Death Penalty

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mog you raving loony
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by AlanBengio »

Anyone who want to surrender to the State the power of imposing to him a death penalty one day either is crazy, deranged or completely naïf.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Enzedder »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:16 pm mog you raving loony
Is the best way to respond.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Gwenno »

I think that it is a crap deterrent and so many of its advocates confuse it with their own revulsion for the ‘deserving’ crime, hence such suggestions (and not just suggestions sometimes!) of crucifixion or burning alive. What is interesting is that when it comes to how humans in general kill other animals, for whatever reasons, we are far less vindictive, far more logical, cold blooded even, and usually humane. Thus when we have a dog that is unpredictably violent, and bites people, we kill it (put it down if you prefer the euphemism) not as a punishment, or to discourage the other dogs, but for our safety. If a puppy bites us we teach it, we don’t kill it. Clearly when we have someone imprisoned they are at our mercy and we could kill them if we wanted, and that is when we have to ask the question how it will benefit us? If the person is mentally ill and dangerous, there is little appetite for execution, and we have no trouble incarcerating them for life, so if someone is not mentally ill, but dangerous, why not follow the same principles? On the other hand, if we think we should be saving money and killing the dangerous, shouldn’t we be killing the mentally ill and dangerous too?
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Re: Death Penalty

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Gwenno wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:20 am I think that it is a crap deterrent and so many of its advocates confuse it with their own revulsion for the ‘deserving’ crime, hence such suggestions (and not just suggestions sometimes!) of crucifixion or burning alive. What is interesting is that when it comes to how humans in general kill other animals, for whatever reasons, we are far less vindictive, far more logical, cold blooded even, and usually humane. Thus when we have a dog that is unpredictably violent, and bites people, we kill it (put it down if you prefer the euphemism) not as a punishment, or to discourage the other dogs, but for our safety. If a puppy bites us we teach it, we don’t kill it. Clearly when we have someone imprisoned they are at our mercy and we could kill them if we wanted, and that is when we have to ask the question how it will benefit us? If the person is mentally ill and dangerous, there is little appetite for execution, and we have no trouble incarcerating them for life, so if someone is not mentally ill, but dangerous, why not follow the same principles? On the other hand, if we think we should be saving money and killing the dangerous, shouldn’t we be killing the mentally ill and dangerous too?
Or go down the ancient Egyptian route and kill all offspring, parents, grandparents etc in order to remove the genes from the pool.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by terangi48 »

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Gwenno »

terangi48 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......
Episode 1 Game of Thrones.
Also spare a thought for those police and soldiers that carry a gun that have to make a split second decision.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by TheFrog »

Gwenno wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:17 am
terangi48 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......
Episode 1 Game of Thrones.
Also spare a thought for those police and soldiers that carry a gun that have to make a split second decision.
There is a difference between killing a person in the rush of action and fear for your own safety and coldly executing someone in a sanitized facility.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Bogbunny »

terangi48 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......
Pull the handle, ya big pussy
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Anonymous 1 »

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Lemoentjie
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Lemoentjie »

No.

Firstly, it's un-Christian.

Secondly, with coming technology, even the '100% guilty' claim cannot always be believed. What is the Government can DeepFake camera video of its political opponents? There are so many things.

Thirdly, you must believe in absolute free will of humans.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Gospel »

Other than the rather insurmountable issue of killing an innocent person it is far too expensive to put criminals to death. My figures are probably ten years out of date but it used to cost around $5million in the US once you factor in the appeals process et al. I believe they were trying to expedite this at the risk of more miscarriages of justice and then even more exorbitant compensation payments.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Gwenno »

TheFrog wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:29 pm
Gwenno wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:17 am
terangi48 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......
Episode 1 Game of Thrones.
Also spare a thought for those police and soldiers that carry a gun that have to make a split second decision.
There is a difference between killing a person in the rush of action and fear for your own safety and coldly executing someone in a sanitized facility.
That is exactly my point. Judges have as much time as they want to deliberate on a decision, and also do not have to establish guilt, which is the jury’s job. Contrast this with a police officer in a dark alley confronted with an assailant apparently pointing a gun. If the the policeman shoots he may have to shoot to kill, making him judge, jury, and executioner in a split second, and a lifetime to regret.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by bessantj »

I agree with.

The last person executed in Cardiff Prison was innocent.

By reinstating the death penalty we can change that and execute a completely different innocent person.
Last edited by bessantj on Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by msp. »

bessantj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am I agree with.

The last person executed in Wales was innocent.

By reinstating the death penalty we can change that and execute a completely different innocent person.
Never knew there was a issue with Vivian Frederick Teed guilty verdict.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by bessantj »

msp. wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:56 pm
bessantj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am I agree with.

The last person executed in Wales was innocent.

By reinstating the death penalty we can change that and execute a completely different innocent person.
Never knew there was a issue with Vivian Frederick Teed guilty verdict.
Corrected. That'll teach me to post after coming home from a night shift.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by msp. »

bessantj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:17 pm
msp. wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:56 pm
bessantj wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am I agree with.

The last person executed in Wales was innocent.

By reinstating the death penalty we can change that and execute a completely different innocent person.
Never knew there was a issue with Vivian Frederick Teed guilty verdict.
Corrected. That'll teach me to post after coming home from a night shift.
To be fair i was being a little bit pedantic, and knew you were talking Mahmoud Mattan who since been found innocent. Whilst his family (wife and children could be compensated) it was too late for him, so your point stands.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Mr Fedora »

Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by LandOTurk »

Mr Fedora wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.
And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
blindcider wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.
You still dont have support you numpty
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by msp. »

LandOTurk wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm
Mr Fedora wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.
And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).
One of the most obvious causes where it shown not to work as a deterrent is in the case of James Corbitt. Who drank in the same pub that was owned by Pierrepoint the British hangman and knew him, who went to murder his wife and was then hung by Pierrepoint.

If regularly meeting an executioner, does not act as a deterrent nothing will
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Mr Fedora
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Mr Fedora »

LandOTurk wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm
Mr Fedora wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.
And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).
Of course it's impossible to say how many potential murderers were deterred from killing in countries with capital punishment.

It's a fact though that the murder rate in the UK is about double what it was before capital punishment was abolished in the mid-1960s. That adds up to a lot of victims who might have lived if hanging hadn't been abolished.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Farva »

Mr Fedora wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:18 am
LandOTurk wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm
Mr Fedora wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.
And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).
Of course it's impossible to say how many potential murderers were deterred from killing in countries with capital punishment.

It's a fact though that the murder rate in the UK is about double what it was before capital punishment was abolished in the mid-1960s. That adds up to a lot of victims who might have lived if hanging hadn't been abolished.
Interestingly many experts dont agree there is a link between captial punishment and crime rates - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-26/ ... 16030?nw=0

And that the idea that in the UK homicide rates have doubled is a little more complex - https://fullfact.org/news/has-murder-ra ... abolished/
The claim that the 'murder rate' has doubled since hanging was banned can therefore be backed up, given the right caveats. As with any complex subject however, there are a number of different ways in which the data can be interpreted, and whether or not the homicide rate quite doubled, it does not necessarily follow that there is a direct causal link between this and the abolition of capital punishment.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Sefton »

Farva put it better
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by AnkleTap »

Some senior Post Office people could do with the death penalty.
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