Planet Rugby Forum

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

MungoMan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:31 am

towny wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:31 pm I would be curious to know how many people enthusiastically support:

1. Capital punishment, or in other words they want the government to have the power to kill people based on what they claim they did......


AND


2. Policing of online and other media to eliminate misinformation, or in other words, the government having the power to determine what is truth and what is misinformation.



“Experience suggests that if men cannot struggle on behalf of a just cause because that just cause was victorious in an earlier generation, then they will struggle against the just cause. They will struggle for the sake of struggle. They will struggle, in other words, out of a certain boredom: for they cannot imagine living in a world without struggle. And if the greater part of the world in which they live is characterized by peaceful and prosperous liberal democracy, then they will struggle against that peace and prosperity, and against democracy.“
Francis Fukuyama 1992

Anyone posting the words of that State Department wang Francis Fukyomama in support of their own argument is actively sabotaging that argument.

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

In fact, it is not ucommon for perpetrators of crimes that may warrant such a thing (e.g. Brevik) to wish for execution, he is not the only one. And I don't think it acts as a deterant either.

If, in a hypothetical world, we could be absolutely sure of the guilt of, for example, someone who has kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered children (and there are such cases), I don't think anyone is being particularly moraly superior for keeping that person alive as opposed to humane execution.

"We diminish ourselves as people" doesn't really cut it. We're diminshing ourself as people by way of humane execution, but not by locking people into concrete boxes for their entire life? At the same time we are willing to accept certain numbers of innocent young people being killed on our nations roads every year just so as not to enforce an inconvenient speed limit? Give me a break!

A5D5E5 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

As you have said before, your views on the death penalty are not that it is a punishment nor a deterrent, but simply that the cost of keeping them alive in prison is too high. This is clearly an economic argument based on the idea that they will be in jail for decades.

inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:39 pm Comparing to car deaths is spurious - if we could, we would choose for people not to die in car crashes. That we accept risk is an entirely different concept.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:45 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:39 pm Comparing to car deaths is spurious - if we could, we would choose for people not to die in car crashes. That we accept risk is an entirely different concept.

We could choose for far less people to die in car crashes. Reduce the speed limit to 20, everywhere. Is that inconvenience worth saving the lives of thousands of people a year? Apparently not.

I don't want to turn the thread into a debate about road safety though. The point is simply that all encompassing concern for the sanctity of life, even that of child-raping murderers, is not convincing to me.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 pm

A5D5E5 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

As you have said before, your views on the death penalty are not that it is a punishment nor a deterrent, but simply that the cost of keeping them alive in prison is too high. This is clearly an economic argument based on the idea that they will be in jail for decades.

That's just a small part of it, the economics.

I believe the victims, family and society in general would feel better knowing that such an individual is no longer around. We have heard again and again from victims that they only really find any peace when that happens (usually after decades of imprisonment).

Also, I really don't see how it's morally superior to lock someone in a box for their entire life.

Getting rid of individuals who are clearly wired in a manner that we can only describe as "evil", if that word has any meaning at all, are unrepentant, and whose guilt is assured, simply seems like the most logical move from a societal viewpoint. Locking them up in a box for the rest of their life instead, just so we can all feel a little morally pious (never mind how the victims feel about it) in ourselves seems like a half-assed solution.

A5D5E5 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:54 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 pm

A5D5E5 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm
You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

As you have said before, your views on the death penalty are not that it is a punishment nor a deterrent, but simply that the cost of keeping them alive in prison is too high. This is clearly an economic argument based on the idea that they will be in jail for decades.

That's just a small part of it, the economics.

I believe the victims, family and society in general would feel better knowing that such an individual is no longer around. We have heard again and again from victims that they only really find any peace when that happens (usually after decades of imprisonment).

Also, I really don't see how it's morally superior to lock someone in a box for their entire life.

Getting rid of individuals who are clearly wired in a manner that we can only describe as "evil", if that word has any meaning at all, are unrepentant, and whose guilt is assured, simply seems like the most logical move from a societal viewpoint. Locking them up in a box for the rest of their life instead, just so we can all feel a little morally pious (never mind how the victims feel about it) in ourselves seems like a half-assed solution.

If we were to judge sentences based on what victims want, I take it you would also be in favour of physical castration, beating people to death, locking people up for decades for minor infractions, summary justice without due process, blinding, crippling, pillories, various forms of torture, death by stoning and the like.

Should we also have different penalties depending on whether the victim and their family are of the "forgive and move on" persuasion or perhaps take a more "medieval" view of justice?

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

In fact, it is not ucommon for perpetrators of crimes that may warrant such a thing (e.g. Brevik) to wish for execution, he is not the only one. And I don't think it acts as a deterant either.

If, in a hypothetical world, we could be absolutely sure of the guilt of, for example, someone who has kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered children (and there are such cases), I don't think anyone is being particularly moraly superior for keeping that person alive as opposed to humane execution.

"We diminish ourselves as people" doesn't really cut it. We're diminshing ourself as people by way of humane execution, but not by locking people into concrete boxes for their entire life? At the same time we are willing to accept certain numbers of innocent young people being killed on our nations roads every year just so as not to enforce an inconvenient speed limit? Give me a break!

Anonymous 1 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:16 pm mog you raving loony

Gwenno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:20 am I think that it is a crap deterrent and so many of its advocates confuse it with their own revulsion for the ‘deserving’ crime, hence such suggestions (and not just suggestions sometimes!) of crucifixion or burning alive. What is interesting is that when it comes to how humans in general kill other animals, for whatever reasons, we are far less vindictive, far more logical, cold blooded even, and usually humane. Thus when we have a dog that is unpredictably violent, and bites people, we kill it (put it down if you prefer the euphemism) not as a punishment, or to discourage the other dogs, but for our safety. If a puppy bites us we teach it, we don’t kill it. Clearly when we have someone imprisoned they are at our mercy and we could kill them if we wanted, and that is when we have to ask the question how it will benefit us? If the person is mentally ill and dangerous, there is little appetite for execution, and we have no trouble incarcerating them for life, so if someone is not mentally ill, but dangerous, why not follow the same principles? On the other hand, if we think we should be saving money and killing the dangerous, shouldn’t we be killing the mentally ill and dangerous too?

terangi48 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......

Gwenno wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:17 am

terangi48 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......

Episode 1 Game of Thrones.
Also spare a thought for those police and soldiers that carry a gun that have to make a split second decision.

terangi48 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......

TheFrog wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:29 pm

Gwenno wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:17 am

terangi48 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:00 am blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Agree with this.....however, action must be taken to remove freedoms, and prison seem the best option we have.

When applying the death sentence to another for their often terrible actions, the consistency of such sentencing is too variable in its application. Contributions so far have pointed out surety of guilt, mental capacity, environmental upbringing, equaly guilty but escape death sentence by turning queens evidence, similar crimes committed wearing a uniform giving protection, etc.

I also wonder at those who bray for the death sentence being an option.

Would they approve of the "death facility" in their neighbourhood?

Would they as a jury member be comfortable being balloted having the task of ending the life of the"guilty"?

Would they also be a volunteer to remove the deceased and provide a burial?

Geez.....I wouldn't! Yet they expect someone else to......

Episode 1 Game of Thrones.
Also spare a thought for those police and soldiers that carry a gun that have to make a split second decision.

There is a difference between killing a person in the rush of action and fear for your own safety and coldly executing someone in a sanitized facility.

bessantj wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am I agree with.

The last person executed in Wales was innocent.

By reinstating the death penalty we can change that and execute a completely different innocent person.

msp. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:56 pm

bessantj wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am I agree with.

The last person executed in Wales was innocent.

By reinstating the death penalty we can change that and execute a completely different innocent person.

Never knew there was a issue with Vivian Frederick Teed guilty verdict.

bessantj wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:17 pm

msp. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:56 pm

bessantj wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am I agree with.

The last person executed in Wales was innocent.

By reinstating the death penalty we can change that and execute a completely different innocent person.

Never knew there was a issue with Vivian Frederick Teed guilty verdict.

Corrected. That'll teach me to post after coming home from a night shift.

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 pm

blindcider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm By supporting the Death penalty we diminish ourselves as a people. Its not done for protection (the person is caught already), its done as a form of spiteful punishment to assuage anger in the populace at the crimes.

When in the states you see them executing people whose mental faculties are questioned, accomplices executed as part of a plea bargain for the actual killer, the demographics of when a death penalty is sought and the demographics of wealth involved in securing competent defence lawyers it is impossible to support this penalty.

Thats without approaching the hypocrisy that our murder is okay but yours is not that the state sanctions in these cases or what the effect is upon the individuals that have to perform and witness the execution.

My personal view is clearly that it is an abhorrent solution and I would rather find some way to allow these people to contribute to society in some meaningful way. So many of these people have had awful upbringings and major issues in their lives, I'd far rather they were kept safe and secure even if that means some truly evil unrepentant individuals live in what could be considered undeserved comfort.

You have a lot of support for this post, but in my case at-least, I went out of my way to be clear that it would not be dolled out as any type of punishment nor deterant.

LandOTurk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.

And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).

LandOTurk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.

And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:18 am

LandOTurk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.

And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).

Of course it's impossible to say how many potential murderers were deterred from killing in countries with capital punishment.

It's a fact though that the murder rate in the UK is about double what it was before capital punishment was abolished in the mid-1960s. That adds up to a lot of victims who might have lived if hanging hadn't been abolished.

The claim that the 'murder rate' has doubled since hanging was banned can therefore be backed up, given the right caveats. As with any complex subject however, there are a number of different ways in which the data can be interpreted, and whether or not the homicide rate quite doubled, it does not necessarily follow that there is a direct causal link between this and the abolition of capital punishment.

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:18 am

LandOTurk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.

And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).

Of course it's impossible to say how many potential murderers were deterred from killing in countries with capital punishment.

It's a fact though that the murder rate in the UK is about double what it was before capital punishment was abolished in the mid-1960s. That adds up to a lot of victims who might have lived if hanging hadn't been abolished.

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:18 am

LandOTurk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Mr Fedora wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:22 pm Lots of innocent people are being put to death already.

By murderers who don't fear the consequences of their acts.

And in those countries where the death penalty is enforced, there is no evidence at all that it works as a deterrent. So let's just kill some more people. Even if some those people are innocent (which is not the main thrust of why I am wholly against it).

Of course it's impossible to say how many potential murderers were deterred from killing in countries with capital punishment.

It's a fact though that the murder rate in the UK is about double what it was before capital punishment was abolished in the mid-1960s. That adds up to a lot of victims who might have lived if hanging hadn't been abolished.