Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

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Peteray
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Peteray »

guy smiley wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:46 am I dunno... I make it a habit not to stop and chat in Fendalton.

I was thinking of the massive support the Tongan League team had back in... 2017? was it? I would have thought there would be enough national pride in the Islander communities within NZ and even Aus to pull a decent crowd. To me it seems you'd look to capitalise on that, build it up and try and generate the sort of tribal support that can really drive a team on.
I must admit this was pretty much how I saw it as well. At the same time I don't feel the biggest challenge is putting a competitive team on the park, but rather the financial aspects of the concept being sustained for long enough to make the club/team self-supporting. If they get $2.3m from World Rugby, and $2.5m from the NZR and Sky, they still need another $5.2m as I understand it, each year. So much will depend upon the off-field activity and decisions.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Zakar »

Ideally its the Warriors fan base that gets cannibalised.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

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Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:28 am Ideally its the Warriors fan base that gets cannibalised.
Auckland is a city of 2 million people, and the Blues struggle to get more than 10K people to games. There is plenty of room in the Greater Auckland market for another pro-sports team to occupy.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by fonzeee »

UncleFB wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:54 am
guy smiley wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:38 am
Zakar wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:11 am
Working Class Rugger wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:04 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:43 am


So it's a sixth New Zealand Super team with an interesting name?
Yeah, probably.
Key difference is that currently NZ teams have a cap (5?), of non NZ eligible players. Assumedly this team would not have this cap.
Someone must have covered this already, but...

80% of the team must be eligible to play for the Islands. Anyone who is already capped for another nation is either included in that 20% 'other' or they're not in the team.

I'm sure someone will try and paint a parallel to marquee type players and an unfair advantage under a 20% cap but I think it's a decent balance. These guys are trying to take part as a genuinely representative team feeding benefits back into their home unions through exposure... I don't think its realistic to try for a greater proportion of uncapped or home capped players. Not yet, anyway.
Seems to a lot of positivity on this thread, so I’ll bring the doom and gloom.

One of the issues with this team is that 80% of the players could be eligible for the PIs, but 80% of those 80% might also be eligible for NZ. What happens when a NZer of PI descent misses a NZ Super squad (they may be too young or be from Hawkes Bay and want to make the Canes) gets picked up for Moana Pasifika and then has a standout season and they make the ABs?

TBH, I really can’t see much positive about this – the money wont be enough to keep many PIs down here rather than in the NH. NZ can’t sustain 6 teams, and make no mistake this is just a NZ team.

I just don’t understand what the purpose of it is. If WR really want to help PI rugby then crack down on any clubs who induce PIs to miss test matches etc. Look at eligibility for PI teams moving forward because their pool of players will be dropping. We already have a situation where recent Samoan internationals have children who are not eligible for the PIs. We’re a couple of generations away from the islands picking from the tiny numbers of players on their own island.
The sad truth is there's really no long term future for Samoa and Tonga in international rugby as relatively competitive sides. Just too small.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

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fonzeee wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 am The sad truth is there's really no long term future for Samoa and Tonga in international rugby as relatively competitive sides. Just too small.
Not with the current WR eligibility model. But under previous IRB eligibility models, both Samoa and Tonga could be top 8 nations right now. Rugby League tweaked it rules and now Tonga can beat the Kangaroos. Why can't Rugby?
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by mrbrownstone »

Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:59 am
fonzeee wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 am The sad truth is there's really no long term future for Samoa and Tonga in international rugby as relatively competitive sides. Just too small.
Not with the current WR eligibility model. But under previous IRB eligibility models, both Samoa and Tonga could be top 8 nations right now. Rugby League tweaked it rules and now Tonga can beat the Kangaroos. Why can't Rugby?
Yeah, there's really no reason Piutau, Fekitoa et al shouldn't be playing for Tonga right now, a la Taumalolo in League.

Put in place a two-year standdown if necessary and make it so you can only swap once and only swap from Tier 1 to Tier 2.

That's only the tip of the iceberg of course. I didn't see it, but heard the Oceans Apart documentary released late last year exposed a lot of those issues quite well.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

mrbrownstone wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:14 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:59 am
fonzeee wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 am The sad truth is there's really no long term future for Samoa and Tonga in international rugby as relatively competitive sides. Just too small.
Not with the current WR eligibility model. But under previous IRB eligibility models, both Samoa and Tonga could be top 8 nations right now. Rugby League tweaked it rules and now Tonga can beat the Kangaroos. Why can't Rugby?
Yeah, there's really no reason Piutau, Fekitoa et al shouldn't be playing for Tonga right now, a la Taumalolo in League.

Put in place a two-year standdown if necessary and make it so you can only swap once and only swap from Tier 1 to Tier 2.

That's only the tip of the iceberg of course. I didn't see it, but heard the Oceans Apart documentary released late last year exposed a lot of those issues quite well.
I don’t think you’ll see a ‘2 year’ stand-down period and I’m not sure it’s a great idea.

If 80% of the ABs and Wallabies would be eligible for another test nation in 2 years, would players spend more or less of their careers in NZ and Australia respectively?

Pretend Lomu arrived 30 years later - he’d now be 22 or so and crushing it, but he’d be worth millions in Europe. He’s proud of his Tongan heritage - would he stay in NZ or go to France/Japan and earn massive dollars and play 100 tests for Tonga?

Great for Tongan fans but not great for the nation that developed him. NZ and Australia might end up being development pipelines for the PIs, whose home grown players would have less chance of cracking it unless they left early themselves.

I’m not sure how this helps anyone.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Zakar »

Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:47 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:28 am Ideally its the Warriors fan base that gets cannibalised.
Auckland is a city of 2 million people, and the Blues struggle to get more than 10K people to games. There is plenty of room in the Greater Auckland market for another pro-sports team to occupy.
I don't know, I've not done the analysis. Assumedly someone has? Does the pacifika community feel engaged by the Blues, will they play in a different region with different transport links etc? There would be a plethora of questions that needed to be answered.

The NRL seems pretty sure that Brisbane can sustain another team, and the populations are similar, with more professional sporting teams (broncs, reds, lions, roar).
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by mrbrownstone »

towny wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:28 am
mrbrownstone wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:14 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:59 am
fonzeee wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 am The sad truth is there's really no long term future for Samoa and Tonga in international rugby as relatively competitive sides. Just too small.
Not with the current WR eligibility model. But under previous IRB eligibility models, both Samoa and Tonga could be top 8 nations right now. Rugby League tweaked it rules and now Tonga can beat the Kangaroos. Why can't Rugby?
Yeah, there's really no reason Piutau, Fekitoa et al shouldn't be playing for Tonga right now, a la Taumalolo in League.

Put in place a two-year standdown if necessary and make it so you can only swap once and only swap from Tier 1 to Tier 2.

That's only the tip of the iceberg of course. I didn't see it, but heard the Oceans Apart documentary released late last year exposed a lot of those issues quite well.
I don’t think you’ll see a ‘2 year’ stand-down period and I’m not sure it’s a great idea.

If 80% of the ABs and Wallabies would be eligible for another test nation in 2 years, would players spend more or less of their careers in NZ and Australia respectively?

Pretend Lomu arrived 30 years later - he’d now be 22 or so and crushing it, but he’d be worth millions in Europe. He’s proud of his Tongan heritage - would he stay in NZ or go to France/Japan and earn massive dollars and play 100 tests for Tonga?

Great for Tongan fans but not great for the nation that developed him. NZ and Australia might end up being development pipelines for the PIs, whose home grown players would have less chance of cracking it unless they left early themselves.

I’m not sure how this helps anyone.
Yeah, maybe 2 years is a bit light. Just threw a number out there. Call it 5.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by UncleFB »

towny wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:28 am
mrbrownstone wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:14 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:59 am
fonzeee wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 am The sad truth is there's really no long term future for Samoa and Tonga in international rugby as relatively competitive sides. Just too small.
Not with the current WR eligibility model. But under previous IRB eligibility models, both Samoa and Tonga could be top 8 nations right now. Rugby League tweaked it rules and now Tonga can beat the Kangaroos. Why can't Rugby?
Yeah, there's really no reason Piutau, Fekitoa et al shouldn't be playing for Tonga right now, a la Taumalolo in League.

Put in place a two-year standdown if necessary and make it so you can only swap once and only swap from Tier 1 to Tier 2.

That's only the tip of the iceberg of course. I didn't see it, but heard the Oceans Apart documentary released late last year exposed a lot of those issues quite well.
I don’t think you’ll see a ‘2 year’ stand-down period and I’m not sure it’s a great idea.

If 80% of the ABs and Wallabies would be eligible for another test nation in 2 years, would players spend more or less of their careers in NZ and Australia respectively?

Pretend Lomu arrived 30 years later - he’d now be 22 or so and crushing it, but he’d be worth millions in Europe. He’s proud of his Tongan heritage - would he stay in NZ or go to France/Japan and earn massive dollars and play 100 tests for Tonga?

Great for Tongan fans but not great for the nation that developed him. NZ and Australia might end up being development pipelines for the PIs, whose home grown players would have less chance of cracking it unless they left early themselves.

I’m not sure how this helps anyone.
He was also a proud Kiwi, as are most of the PI Kiwis (aside from the Tongan league fvckwits who decided to leave on the eve or a tournament because they didn't like the coach), so I doubt he would have followed your scenario. I think two years is probably too short a stand down but three years like how it used to be would probably work.

I think people tend to forget in these discussions that guys with PI heritage are also pretty proud NZers.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Dan54. »

Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Zakar »

Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

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Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:14 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?

He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
It’s not like we’ve had that many Tongan players anyway. Plus, with the new eligibility rules it wouldn’t be worth trying to pick up a Tongan born player playing for Moana. Unless he’s meaning NZ Tongans, and if that’s the case he can go fvck himself as they’re New Zealanders.

He’s probably trying to stop Fakatava from declaring for NZ.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Dan54. »

Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:14 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
I agree he now has a different point of view, but when you turned your back on chance to represent Tonga , you then lose any credability in thinking others shouldn't, especially whan so many of players that did play for Tonga in last world cup were born in NZ and Aus.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by guy smiley »

Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:28 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:14 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
I agree he now has a different point of view, but when you turned your back on chance to represent Tonga , you then lose any credability in thinking others shouldn't, especially whan so many of players that did play for Tonga in last world cup were born in NZ and Aus.
Don't be silly. He hasn't lost credibility at all, neither is he being hypocritical. He grew up an Aussie and the world has changed since then. He's seen the interests of the Islands discounted globally, he's taking the knowledge and skills he gained back to help as he sees fit.

fucksake
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

UncleFB wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:52 am
towny wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:28 am
mrbrownstone wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:14 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:59 am
fonzeee wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 am The sad truth is there's really no long term future for Samoa and Tonga in international rugby as relatively competitive sides. Just too small.
Not with the current WR eligibility model. But under previous IRB eligibility models, both Samoa and Tonga could be top 8 nations right now. Rugby League tweaked it rules and now Tonga can beat the Kangaroos. Why can't Rugby?
Yeah, there's really no reason Piutau, Fekitoa et al shouldn't be playing for Tonga right now, a la Taumalolo in League.

Put in place a two-year standdown if necessary and make it so you can only swap once and only swap from Tier 1 to Tier 2.

That's only the tip of the iceberg of course. I didn't see it, but heard the Oceans Apart documentary released late last year exposed a lot of those issues quite well.
I don’t think you’ll see a ‘2 year’ stand-down period and I’m not sure it’s a great idea.

If 80% of the ABs and Wallabies would be eligible for another test nation in 2 years, would players spend more or less of their careers in NZ and Australia respectively?

Pretend Lomu arrived 30 years later - he’d now be 22 or so and crushing it, but he’d be worth millions in Europe. He’s proud of his Tongan heritage - would he stay in NZ or go to France/Japan and earn massive dollars and play 100 tests for Tonga?

Great for Tongan fans but not great for the nation that developed him. NZ and Australia might end up being development pipelines for the PIs, whose home grown players would have less chance of cracking it unless they left early themselves.

I’m not sure how this helps anyone.
He was also a proud Kiwi, as are most of the PI Kiwis (aside from the Tongan league fvckwits who decided to leave on the eve or a tournament because they didn't like the coach), so I doubt he would have followed your scenario. I think two years is probably too short a stand down but three years like how it used to be would probably work.

I think people tend to forget in these discussions that guys with PI heritage are also pretty proud NZers.
But are they proud enough to give up $1m and a 100 Tongan test caps. Sure they’re proud kiwis, but they’re also proud Tongans and now they’ve got lots of choices.

A test jersey is worth a lot and the ABs more than most. But is the AB jersey worth more than another test jersey that also comes with a bag of French money?
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

guy smiley wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:35 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:28 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:14 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
I agree he now has a different point of view, but when you turned your back on chance to represent Tonga , you then lose any credability in thinking others shouldn't, especially whan so many of players that did play for Tonga in last world cup were born in NZ and Aus.
Don't be silly. He hasn't lost credibility at all, neither is he being hypocritical. He grew up an Aussie and the world has changed since then. He's seen the interests of the Islands discounted globally, he's taking the knowledge and skills he gained back to help as he sees fit.

fucksake
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Dan54. »

towny wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:54 pm
guy smiley wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:35 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:28 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:14 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
I agree he now has a different point of view, but when you turned your back on chance to represent Tonga , you then lose any credability in thinking others shouldn't, especially whan so many of players that did play for Tonga in last world cup were born in NZ and Aus.
Of course it changed when he played it was ok to represent the country that paid the best, now he a coach and doesn't want the same. FFS half the Tongan team were born in NZ and Aus, I not saying he did anything wrong playing for Aus, but it sure weakens his stance on asking players to remember their heritage.

Don't be silly. He hasn't lost credibility at all, neither is he being hypocritical. He grew up an Aussie and the world has changed since then. He's seen the interests of the Islands discounted globally, he's taking the knowledge and skills he gained back to help as he sees fit.

fucksake
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Auckman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:55 am
Ted. wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:52 am Pukekohe.
Yes that would be the logical venue. If the Crusaders can play out of Orangetheory Stadium for a decade plus then Pukekohe should be more than adequate.

Will be interesting to see if the Moana eat into the Blues current supporter base, or if they attract new fans? Perhaps even trying to win over fans of the Warrriors?

Pukekohe certainly has an intimate, 'boutique' feel to it

Image
It's a cow paddock. Needs major upgrades. I think the best bet is Mt Smart stadium.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Auckman »

Anyway, this is a positive move for PI rugby. However, they'll need to attract some players back from Europe who may be getting on in years and might want to take a pay cut & have one last waltz in super rugby while giving some young players sone mentoring. Kahn Fotualii-type players.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Auckman »

To: Towny
Re: Lomu

There is still the pull of the All Black jersey. Something that really motivated Lomu. The prestige of being selected in, lets face it, the greatest team in rugby history, was and is a huge drawcard.

However, players would still hang around in NZ because, in Europe, a CV with 50 test All Black, RWC Winner, etc etc on it, would still command a far higher salary than a CV with merely NPC and Super Rugby experience on it.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:28 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:14 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
I agree he now has a different point of view, but when you turned your back on chance to represent Tonga , you then lose any credability in thinking others shouldn't, especially whan so many of players that did play for Tonga in last world cup were born in NZ and Aus.
Do you think Kepu turned his back on Tonga when he played for Australia, and this is a slight against him?
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

Auckman wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:03 am To: Towny
Re: Lomu

There is still the pull of the All Black jersey. Something that really motivated Lomu. The prestige of being selected in, lets face it, the greatest team in rugby history, was and is a huge drawcard.

However, players would still hang around in NZ because, in Europe, a CV with 50 test All Black, RWC Winner, etc etc on it, would still command a far higher salary than a CV with merely NPC and Super Rugby experience on it.
I agree!
But once you have 20 AB jerseys, would the 21st one be worth more than a big bag of gold + 80 Tongan test jerseys? I would think a lot of tier 1 test players would be tempted to take the money and play tests for their 'home' nation.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by Dan54. »

towny wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:11 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:28 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:14 am
Dan54. wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am Did anyone read where Toutai Kefu said at a luncheon he is worried that NZR and RA may want to use the MP team as a way to see more Tongan players and he hopes it doesn't happen etc.
I wonder if anyone at Lunch thought to ask him what the highlight of his career with Tonga?

Does the expression with words , pot kettle and black come to mind?
He's role now is as Tongan coach, so it makes sense he is reporting with their interests at heart.

He also moved to Australia aged 4.
I agree he now has a different point of view, but when you turned your back on chance to represent Tonga , you then lose any credability in thinking others shouldn't, especially whan so many of players that did play for Tonga in last world cup were born in NZ and Aus.
Do you think Kepu turned his back on Tonga when he played for Australia, and this is a slight against him?
No I don't think it a slight on him, of course he played where he felt more at home, and who he wanted to play for, and no doubt may of made a bit more money from it. Good on him,
I just think once you done it, realise what is good for you is probably just as good for young fellas coming through, and maybe don't make public comments hinting other's that may do it are being poached.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

I don’t think you know much about rugby.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by UncleFB »

towny wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:14 am
Auckman wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:03 am To: Towny
Re: Lomu

There is still the pull of the All Black jersey. Something that really motivated Lomu. The prestige of being selected in, lets face it, the greatest team in rugby history, was and is a huge drawcard.

However, players would still hang around in NZ because, in Europe, a CV with 50 test All Black, RWC Winner, etc etc on it, would still command a far higher salary than a CV with merely NPC and Super Rugby experience on it.
I agree!
But once you have 20 AB jerseys, would the 21st one be worth more than a big bag of gold + 80 Tongan test jerseys? I would think a lot of tier 1 test players would be tempted to take the money and play tests for their 'home' nation.
Again, I think you overestimate the lure of the PI jerseys to NZ PIs, your 'home nation' comment adds to this. Remember that a guy like Piutau went for the money fullstop, he's an anomaly. Most of the NZ PIs want to play for the ABs from when they're kids just like any other NZer.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:53 am
towny wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:14 am
Auckman wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:03 am To: Towny
Re: Lomu

There is still the pull of the All Black jersey. Something that really motivated Lomu. The prestige of being selected in, lets face it, the greatest team in rugby history, was and is a huge drawcard.

However, players would still hang around in NZ because, in Europe, a CV with 50 test All Black, RWC Winner, etc etc on it, would still command a far higher salary than a CV with merely NPC and Super Rugby experience on it.
I agree!
But once you have 20 AB jerseys, would the 21st one be worth more than a big bag of gold + 80 Tongan test jerseys? I would think a lot of tier 1 test players would be tempted to take the money and play tests for their 'home' nation.
Again, I think you overestimate the lure of the PI jerseys to NZ PIs, your 'home nation' comment adds to this. Remember that a guy like Piutau went for the money fullstop, he's an anomaly. Most of the NZ PIs want to play for the ABs from when they're kids just like any other NZer.
I’m not talking about the players going for cash, but atm money alone is enough to drag heaps of players to the NH. If players could still play test rugby, perhaps more would be inclined to go. I don’t think that’s a stretch to believe. And maybe I am wrong? And even if I’m not, maybe it’s not a big deal?

I used the word ‘home nation’ with parentheses because I wanted it to be clear that I wasn’t sure how to define the relationship.

Okay.......I’ll jump to the other side for a second. What if this concept (2 year rule) reduced the exodus? NZ and Oz players get a premium overseas - French and Japanese clubs know they don’t have to release them for tests. But if they were still eligible, would they be as valuable? They’d possibly be paid less.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by UncleFB »

towny wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:02 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:53 am
towny wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:14 am
Auckman wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:03 am To: Towny
Re: Lomu

There is still the pull of the All Black jersey. Something that really motivated Lomu. The prestige of being selected in, lets face it, the greatest team in rugby history, was and is a huge drawcard.

However, players would still hang around in NZ because, in Europe, a CV with 50 test All Black, RWC Winner, etc etc on it, would still command a far higher salary than a CV with merely NPC and Super Rugby experience on it.
I agree!
But once you have 20 AB jerseys, would the 21st one be worth more than a big bag of gold + 80 Tongan test jerseys? I would think a lot of tier 1 test players would be tempted to take the money and play tests for their 'home' nation.
Again, I think you overestimate the lure of the PI jerseys to NZ PIs, your 'home nation' comment adds to this. Remember that a guy like Piutau went for the money fullstop, he's an anomaly. Most of the NZ PIs want to play for the ABs from when they're kids just like any other NZer.
I’m not talking about the players going for cash, but atm money alone is enough to drag heaps of players to the NH. If players could still play test rugby, perhaps more would be inclined to go. I don’t think that’s a stretch to believe. And maybe I am wrong? And even if I’m not, maybe it’s not a big deal?

I used the word ‘home nation’ with parentheses because I wanted it to be clear that I wasn’t sure how to define the relationship.

Okay.......I’ll jump to the other side for a second. What if this concept (2 year rule) reduced the exodus? NZ and Oz players get a premium overseas - French and Japanese clubs know they don’t have to release them for tests. But if they were still eligible, would they be as valuable? They’d possibly be paid less.
Not that many of the "names" are really going for cash or going in their prime at all (I'm talking about NZ here), of all players, probably only really Piutau and then Luatua, but Luatua always had the feeling he wouldn't get a decent go which contributed to his leaving, Evans left in his prime because he thought he was better than DC, Lucky Luke left because his missus had loose lips etc ...Then let's look at a guy like Aki, he left for the money and then spurned Samoa for Ireland.

I'm not arguing for or against the rule, but I think you used a bad example when using Lomu in making your case. There's very little chance that he would have gone to Tonga. Lets look at Tana Umaga, he's another who wouldn't go, there's a reason he played for NZ and Mike played for Samoa, Mike wasn't good enough for the ABs. If some guys who got the odd cap, or got capped for the 7s team went then I'd be happy with that and I expect that a bunch would do that with the opportunity, but I think you're reaching if you think the big names would too.

Of course in this relationship the home nation is NZ, would you suggest that Luke Romano's home nation is Italy?
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

:lol:

I wish I used another term....
Plenty of ABs have gone in their prime. Right now your best player is overseas.

But I made my case and I might well be wrong.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by UncleFB »

towny wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:22 am :lol:

I wish I used another term....
Plenty of ABs have gone in their prime. Right now your best player is overseas.

But I made my case and I might well be wrong.
:lol:

Who is our current best player? I thought you were full blown Ardie fluffing at the moment?

If you mean BBBR he's on sabbatical, which he took so he'd be physically able to make it to the next RWC. He also said he'd never go to Europe when he signed his Japan contract. He's theoretically back next month.

As for ABs in their prime I can't think of many, Hayman was one, he was our starting prop.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:32 am
towny wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:22 am :lol:

I wish I used another term....
Plenty of ABs have gone in their prime. Right now your best player is overseas.

But I made my case and I might well be wrong.
:lol:

Who is our current best player? I thought you were full blown Ardie fluffing at the moment?

If you mean BBBR he's on sabbatical, which he took so he'd be physically able to make it to the next RWC. He also said he'd never go to Europe when he signed his Japan contract. He's theoretically back next month.

As for ABs in their prime I can't think of many, Hayman was one, he was our starting prop.
Brodie Retallick is easily NZ's best and most important player.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

This is a good chat (for me at least).

I'm changing my position!
Firstly, I think I'm right but only to a degree. The Lomu analogy was important - I don't think he would have been the guy to go overseas for the cash. For one thing, NZ will do what it has to in order to keep the key players. This use of the 'sabbatical' is a good example of a tool they've conjured up to overcome the threat.

But even if my original position was 100% correct.... so what?
This would most likely impact Australia more than NZ and maybe that's why I was opposed at the outset. Rugby Australia finds it hard enough to keep star players in their prime. I can easily foresee a host of big name Wallaby stars turning out for PIs in tests if they were allowed and I do think it would reduce the sacrifice that comes with playing in France/Japan. For example, if these imagined regulations were in place now, in a couple of years we might see these Wallabies (in their prime) turning out for Tonga, Samoa and Fiji:

1.
2. Uelese, BPA, Latu, Mafi, Kaitu'u
3. Tupou, Pone, Alalaatoa
4. Hosea, Arnold
5. LSL
6. Valetini, Uru
7.
8. Naisirani
9.
10. Lolesio
11. Koroibette
12. Paisami, Kerevi
13. Ikitau
14. Petaia
15. Israel Folau

So, what would happen? Well, the World Cup would be more awesome than ever! Samoa and Tonga would be terrifying and Fiji a splash more scary than they are already. That's good, right? Every one of these players looks great in a Wallaby jersey, but they'd look equally at home, and I imagine extremely proud, if they were in a Tongan, Samoan or Fijian jersey. Based entirely upon players from the RA set-up, the PI teams would be significantly stronger and this would make international rugby stronger.

Also, it would be still up to Rugby Australia whether they let them go - Australia can select from overseas if they wish and they can always prioritise players when setting salaries.

So count me in!
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by The Optimist »

guy smiley wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:35 am
Don't be silly. He hasn't lost credibility at all, neither is he being hypocritical. He grew up an Aussie and the world has changed since then. He's seen the interests of the Islands discounted globally, he's taking the knowledge and skills he gained back to help as he sees fit.

fucksake
This is going to cut me to the bone, but I have to agree with smiley.... x( :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

The Optimist wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:10 am
guy smiley wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:35 am
Don't be silly. He hasn't lost credibility at all, neither is he being hypocritical. He grew up an Aussie and the world has changed since then. He's seen the interests of the Islands discounted globally, he's taking the knowledge and skills he gained back to help as he sees fit.

fucksake
This is going to cut me to the bone, but I have to agree with smiley.... x( :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Screw that. I’d argue that water wasn’t wet before I agreed with that cretin.
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by UncleFB »

towny wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:53 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:32 am
towny wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:22 am :lol:

I wish I used another term....
Plenty of ABs have gone in their prime. Right now your best player is overseas.

But I made my case and I might well be wrong.
:lol:

Who is our current best player? I thought you were full blown Ardie fluffing at the moment?

If you mean BBBR he's on sabbatical, which he took so he'd be physically able to make it to the next RWC. He also said he'd never go to Europe when he signed his Japan contract. He's theoretically back next month.

As for ABs in their prime I can't think of many, Hayman was one, he was our starting prop.
Brodie Retallick is easily NZ's best and most important player.
You'll get no argument here.
towny
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Re: Fiji Drua and Pasifika Moana confirmed for SR 2022

Post by towny »

UncleFB wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:39 am
towny wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:53 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:32 am
towny wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:22 am :lol:

I wish I used another term....
Plenty of ABs have gone in their prime. Right now your best player is overseas.

But I made my case and I might well be wrong.
:lol:

Who is our current best player? I thought you were full blown Ardie fluffing at the moment?

If you mean BBBR he's on sabbatical, which he took so he'd be physically able to make it to the next RWC. He also said he'd never go to Europe when he signed his Japan contract. He's theoretically back next month.

As for ABs in their prime I can't think of many, Hayman was one, he was our starting prop.
Brodie Retallick is easily NZ's best and most important player.
You'll get no argument here.
tbf, I would have considered an argument for Aaron Smith.
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