Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

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Mr Mike
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Mr Mike »

I suspect that if there was a run of cases originating in the US in January then the PM would have fronted the cameras.

We are very concerned by the number of recent cases from the US being caught in MIQ here in Aotearoa. We have had serious and frank discussions with the current Administration... *frowns and sighs deeply* .. and *beams broadly* with the incoming Administration. Those discussions were constructive and we have been assured that the US has a robust plan to manage these issues and will be committing significant resources and focus on ensuring that happens. We value our relationship with the United States and look forward to working even more closely on issues of common interest in the future.”
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guy smiley
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by guy smiley »

You captured the smile perfectly :lol:
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Salient »

Blackrock Bullet wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:22 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:57 pm
Lot's of people ignored Australia's human rights abuses all in the name of public health and pints, can that go on? What kind of country locks out its own citizens indefinitely and shows barely contained racism towards India and Indians like we saw in Perth during the week? Where are the basic values?

A bloody good question.

Combine it with mandatory medical procedure etc and the future isn’t looking that free.
Australia and Australians to me seem to have that mentality from The Beach, protect their patch at all costs. When you combine that with the underbelly of racism, you get the India situation. As this goes on the moves become more crazy, I notice that Melbourne now wants to build a quarantine facility in the sticks, right beside a quarantine facility for animals. This follows on from other States suggesting using open air mining camps for their detention facilities, human beings are now bio threats and not people.

What’s sad is that through a mixture of frustration and their own self preservation modes, much of the West praised Australia. But when we have tried to replicate them, the horror of it makes people recoil. We had that here when the MHQ facilities filled up and people couldn’t travel in for a few days, the Government had to roll back on elements of it as leaving citizens stranded is beyond the pale of decency.

What’s interesting about Australians is that they don’t seem to bat an eyelid at it. Geoffrey Robertson said that no “respectable” nation on earth would lock their citizens out for months and months as Australia did. I saw one clip this week or some racist in Perth blaming an Indian who had quarantined for having the gall to go and get married. Now they are banning even Australians from coming home from there, collateral damage it seems. Most Aussies will just nod and agree with it.
Yes when we want an opinion from State side maybe we'll wait till its a subject the U.S has excelled at, rather than one they have bollocked up continually.

Quarantine has worked in this country to a huge degree, agree with the calls to halt ALL flights from Indian regardless with some compassion thrown in for Aussies caught out due to situations beyond their control. Once again in a Democracy a Government has a duty of care to its citizens, something the U.S completely dropped the ball on during your covid avalanche, in this case the duty of care extends to protecting our citizens from the epidemic as far as possible.

BTW what is the U.S policy toward flights from Indian, not seeing so much written about this Downunder, though apparently Pres. Biden is getting a cat, which was front page news on one of our bin liners.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

https://twitter.com/kossamaras/status/1 ... 53124?s=21
This is Indian Australians helping our their fellow Aussies during the catastrophic bushfires. Remember them? They fed thousands across 3 states. When we faced a crisis, they donated and helped. When they are faced with a crisis we threaten to fine their families returning to Aus
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Muttonbirds »

Mr Mike wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:39 pm I suspect that if there was a run of cases originating in the US in January then the PM would have fronted the cameras.

We are very concerned by the number of recent cases from the US being caught in MIQ here in Aotearoa. We have had serious and frank discussions with the current Administration... *frowns and sighs deeply* .. and *beams broadly* with the incoming Administration. Those discussions were constructive and we have been assured that the US has a robust plan to manage these issues and will be committing significant resources and focus on ensuring that happens. We value our relationship with the United States and look forward to working even more closely on issues of common interest in the future.”
Another one whose haemorrhoids play up when he thinks of Ardern. :roll:

There are differences between India today and the US in January.
Speaking to media in Auckland yesterday, Ardern said it was necessary, given the high number of returnees from India testing positive for Covid-19 upon arrival in New Zealand.

Data from the Ministry of Health shows people returning from India make up the largest number of those testing positive for Covid-19 on day 0/1.

For example, yesterday the Ministry of Health reported that 17 of the 19 people who tested positive for Covid-19 in MIQ were travelling from India – where Covid-19 is currently killing thousands each day.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19- ... YUQDBH3KY/

However, the graphs in this article do suggest the UK was easily the biggest source of positive cases in MIQ in January, but that was then and this is now.

I'd have slammed the door on the UK then too, but that's just me.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

guy smiley wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:33 pm
Mr Mike wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:26 pm
Thomas wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:08 pm
Blackrock Bullet wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:39 am The decision to ban India is 100% racist. The US had hundreds of thousands of cases in January and no ban.
Was the US getting 300K+ cases per day?
Yes, January 8 there were 308k.

Regardless, the decision is economic. I have no doubt many countries would have liked to ban all travel from the US but didn’t want to take them on.
I’m not so sure about that. I think it’s more likely related to the number of travellers from each country trying to enter Australia and NZ. The quarantine facilities in current use were in danger of being swamped by positive cases and the entire managed immigration schemes run by both governments faced an unacceptable level of risk of collapsing.

But Blackrock Bullet knows better. He’s known better since this whole Covid crisis kicked off. He’s been wrong every step of the way but he still knows better.
This was already dealt with, several attempted to use this excuse but it has no basis in fact.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguar ... ear-factor
Epidemiologists are questioning why Australia has banned all flights from India, with a Guardian analysis revealing India has fewer coronavirus cases per capita than either the United States or the United Kingdom during their respective Covid peaks.

The Australian government did not suspend flights from those countries as it did this week with India.

Experts say cases in India could be underreported but they believe the numbers are still lower than the spikes seen in other countries in recent months. They also note one variant of interest in India has not yet been deemed as concerning as the UK strain that dominated Britain’s December wave.

Peter Collignon, a professor of infectious diseases at the Australian National University, believes Australia “needs to rethink blanket bans”. He says Canberra is ethically obliged to allow Australians to return from India because they risk contracting the virus in a country where hospital access isn’t guaranteed.

A comparison of infection data has led Mary-Louise McLaws, a professor of epidemiology at the University of New South Wales and a World Health Organization advisor, to argue the government’s ban on flights from India is likely “an act out of fear”.
She says the Morrison government must offer a route home for citizens “to ensure there is no misconception the ban is in any way racist”.
Arrival bans for specific countries, including China, were introduced before a public health order barring all non-citizens and permanent residents entry to Australia was made at the beginning of the pandemic in early 2020.

But the suspension of direct flights from India – until at least 15 May – is the first time Australian citizens have essentially been banned from entering their own country.

Almost 100 countries have had days with more cases per capita than India, according to Our World in Data statistics analysed by Guardian Australia.

The UK and US were also responsible for a greater share of overseas acquired cases in Australia at the height of their outbreaks, according to data released by the New South Wales health department.

In NSW, 41% of Covid-19 cases acquired overseas in December were from the United States.

While India is the largest source of overseas acquired cases in the latest data, from 17 April, the country accounted for just 21% of overseas infections in the preceding four weeks.

At the beginning of January, the height of their most recent outbreaks, the United Kingdom and the United States recorded 1,004 and 907 new cases per million people per day.

India hit a high watermark of 225 new cases per million last week. India does have one of the largest case totals in raw numbers, however, with over 17m cases as of 26 April.

NSW Health has released data on overseas acquired infections by source country since November. Examining the past five months, it can be seen that India, the UK and the US all had similar numbers of resident returns in the past year – 11,760 then 12,510 and 10,990 respectively.

But significantly more residents returned from the United Kingdom and the United States over the three months to January than from India.

Responding to the figures, Collignon said “the fear factor has now come into this”.

“I look at the numbers and I’m not sure the rates are higher in India, that the risk is all that different. We need to rethink blanket bans because I’m not sure it’s being done on a consistent basis,” he said.

[“There are Australians there and I don’t think it’s reasonable to stop them coming to Australia.”

Collignon urged the federal government to resume arrivals from India and use a single quarantine site for them similar to a medical hotel used by some states for infected arrivals.
He said even if the government was afraid travellers will have Covid or could catch it in Australian quarantine, it was ethically obliged to allow them to return, because they may not be able to access a hospital in India.

“Australians are going to be much better off if they develop Covid here where they can access hospitals. We should look at accepting that risk.”

McLaws agreed that even though there was an ethical responsibility to ensure returning travellers would be safe in quarantine and not contract Covid, there was also a responsibility to ensure Australians in India had access to health care – something it could only guarantee by repatriating them.

She also questioned why a flight ban was not put in place when larger spikes were recorded in other countries. In response to the UK wave in December, the Australian government introduced a requirement for arrivals to have a negative PCR test 72 hours before departure to Australia, something still in place for all arrivals.

“As a multicultural country that loves their multicultural community, it is beholden to the authorities to care for that multicultural community that needs to come home and for them to come home safely,” McLaws said.

She said the government’s ban meant some vulnerable Australians could contract Covid in India and die. It ignored the fact many people had been trying to return before the current wave but couldn’t due to flight caps.

To increase the safety of hotel quarantine, McLaws believes Indian arrivals should be tested far more regularly and positive cases diverted to separate facilities sooner in their infectious period.

“This [flight ban] is a knee jerk reaction,” she said. “I can understand the government is worried about India but it’s still a knee jerk reaction.”
Australia are not the only country to deal in racism when it comes to India. Indeed I’d argue that the U.K. are doing it too by putting them on MHQ whilst other countries weren’t - the fact is though that Australia are using their own citizens as collateral damage for this policy.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Enzedder »

Epidemiologists are questioning why Australia has banned all flights from India, with a Guardian analysis revealing India has fewer coronavirus cases per capita than either the United States or the United Kingdom during their respective Covid peaks.
But I bet the number of tests as a % of population in India is tiny. As Trump said, test more and find more
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Farva »

India has fewer recorded cases per capita.
But estimates suggest that only between 1 in 10 to 1 in 30 cases are actually recorded.

Regardless, what we are seeing is a heavy uptick in the the number of cases recorded in hotel quarantine.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavir ... 1f5e63f2d6

That is the driver for this policy.

There is plenty of debate as to whether it’s an ethical policy. For me it’s not. I think we should be doing everything possible to keep our people safe.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Farva »

The actual numbers of caseloads and deaths "could be anything from 10 to 30 times higher," Vikas Bajpai of the Progressive Medicos and Scientists Forum told German broadcaster Deutsche Welle.
https://www.trtworld.com/asia/massacre- ... aths-46256
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Mr Mike
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Mr Mike »

Muttonbirds wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:17 pm
Mr Mike wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:39 pm I suspect that if there was a run of cases originating in the US in January then the PM would have fronted the cameras.

We are very concerned by the number of recent cases from the US being caught in MIQ here in Aotearoa. We have had serious and frank discussions with the current Administration... *frowns and sighs deeply* .. and *beams broadly* with the incoming Administration. Those discussions were constructive and we have been assured that the US has a robust plan to manage these issues and will be committing significant resources and focus on ensuring that happens. We value our relationship with the United States and look forward to working even more closely on issues of common interest in the future.”
Another one whose haemorrhoids play up when he thinks of Ardern. :roll:
You misread that very badly, I like her pragmatism.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Ted. »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:47 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:44 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:41 am Would a few cases slip by? Yes, probably. But it's really just not that big a deal.
I think you'll find the vast majority of Australians would disagree with you Mog.
The vast majority of Australians seem to think they are dealing with something between ebola and the black plague. I had a coronavirus. I had a headache for a day.
Just about the stupidest single post I have scene on the Coronavirus topic. Just about, because I am fairly certain that Mogg has probably uttered something more inanely tiresome and will have at least a decent crack at topping it.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Farva »

Ted. wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:34 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:47 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:44 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:41 am Would a few cases slip by? Yes, probably. But it's really just not that big a deal.
I think you'll find the vast majority of Australians would disagree with you Mog.
The vast majority of Australians seem to think they are dealing with something between ebola and the black plague. I had a coronavirus. I had a headache for a day.
Just about the stupidest single post I have scene on the Coronavirus topic. Just about, because I am fairly certain that Mogg has probably uttered something more inanely tiresome and will have at least a decent crack at topping it.
But actually accurate.
Covid is demonstrably much worse than Ebola. Ebola has killed at best somewhere around a few thousand people. Covid has so far killed a recorded 3m but probably substantially more.
Black Plague on the other hand, over the various outbreaks, has killed hundreds of millions (50m during the Justinian plague, 200m during the black deaths and millions others with ongoing outbreaks). Covid is nowhere near as bad as that.
So it’s somewhere between the two.
God Australians are clever.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by kiap »

guy smiley wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:33 pm I think it’s more likely related to the number of travellers from each country trying to enter Australia and NZ. The quarantine facilities in current use were in danger of being swamped by positive cases and the entire managed immigration schemes run by both governments faced an unacceptable level of risk of collapsing.
Yep. In terms of Oz, the top 3 sources of arrivals are NZ, China and India, then UK. That's pre- and post-Wuhan.

Image

Mike's point re the US is probably on the money now with ScoMo as much as Ardern, given there's a Biden administration. Was a different story with Trump - really the way there was to squish aircraft arrival slots ...
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Zakar »

Farva wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:01 am
Ted. wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:34 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:47 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:44 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:41 am Would a few cases slip by? Yes, probably. But it's really just not that big a deal.
I think you'll find the vast majority of Australians would disagree with you Mog.
The vast majority of Australians seem to think they are dealing with something between ebola and the black plague. I had a coronavirus. I had a headache for a day.
Just about the stupidest single post I have scene on the Coronavirus topic. Just about, because I am fairly certain that Mogg has probably uttered something more inanely tiresome and will have at least a decent crack at topping it.
But actually accurate.
Covid is demonstrably much worse than Ebola. Ebola has killed at best somewhere around a few thousand people. Covid has so far killed a recorded 3m but probably substantially more.
Black Plague on the other hand, over the various outbreaks, has killed hundreds of millions (50m during the Justinian plague, 200m during the black deaths and millions others with ongoing outbreaks). Covid is nowhere near as bad as that.
So it’s somewhere between the two.
God Australians are clever.
Its interesting, what makes Ebola ineffective as a mass killing virus is how horrifyingly lethal it is.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Farva »

Well a combination of how lethal it is and how infectious it isnt
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Isn’t the answer for an Australian to:
- travel to NZ and complete your quarantine there.
- with 14d quarantine in NZ you then overcome the ‘have you been in India in the last 14 days issue
- get flight back to Aus - no further quarantine required

I have no idea but this is based on assumption the availability and cost of flights to Aus & NZ are roughly the same(hard to get and expensive).

So assume that’s what Aussie cricketers will do.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by JB1981 »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:56 am Isn’t the answer for an Australian to:
- travel to NZ and complete your quarantine there.
- with 14d quarantine in NZ you then overcome the ‘have you been in India in the last 14 days issue
- get flight back to Aus - no further quarantine required

I have no idea but this is based on assumption the availability and cost of flights to Aus & NZ are roughly the same(hard to get and expensive).

So assume that’s what Aussie cricketers will do.
Australians wouldn’t be able to enter NZ from India. We have a travel bubble with Australia but other than that are still (unless an exemption is granted) not allowing non-citizens in.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Got it. I misread something on the NZ Govt site - Australians that a ordinarily resident in NZ can enter without exemption approval (which is clearly a small subset / not what I was proposing)...
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

I'm in a mixed mind at this response.

It's probably correct but also completely necessary due to the Feds Bungling of Covid from day 1.

The Vaccine Rollout is a shambles - I am not confident that overseas Australians are getting the support they need from the Consulates.

As for Racism? Sadly, it does still exist in bigger pockets that most of us would be comfortable with.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by CrazyIslander »

Farva wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:33 am Well a combination of how lethal it is and how infectious it isnt
Or the fact that we can easily identify carriers.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Ted. »

Blackrock Bullet wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:26 pm
guy smiley wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:33 pm
Mr Mike wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:26 pm
Thomas wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:08 pm
Blackrock Bullet wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:39 am The decision to ban India is 100% racist. The US had hundreds of thousands of cases in January and no ban.
Was the US getting 300K+ cases per day?
Yes, January 8 there were 308k.

Regardless, the decision is economic. I have no doubt many countries would have liked to ban all travel from the US but didn’t want to take them on.
I’m not so sure about that. I think it’s more likely related to the number of travellers from each country trying to enter Australia and NZ. The quarantine facilities in current use were in danger of being swamped by positive cases and the entire managed immigration schemes run by both governments faced an unacceptable level of risk of collapsing.

But Blackrock Bullet knows better. He’s known better since this whole Covid crisis kicked off. He’s been wrong every step of the way but he still knows better.
This was already dealt with, several attempted to use this excuse but it has no basis in fact.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguar ... ear-factor
Epidemiologists are questioning why Australia has banned all flights from India, with a Guardian analysis revealing India has fewer coronavirus cases per capita than either the United States or the United Kingdom during their respective Covid peaks.

The Australian government did not suspend flights from those countries as it did this week with India.

Experts say cases in India could be underreported but they believe the numbers are still lower than the spikes seen in other countries in recent months. They also note one variant of interest in India has not yet been deemed as concerning as the UK strain that dominated Britain’s December wave.

Peter Collignon, a professor of infectious diseases at the Australian National University, believes Australia “needs to rethink blanket bans”. He says Canberra is ethically obliged to allow Australians to return from India because they risk contracting the virus in a country where hospital access isn’t guaranteed.

A comparison of infection data has led Mary-Louise McLaws, a professor of epidemiology at the University of New South Wales and a World Health Organization advisor, to argue the government’s ban on flights from India is likely “an act out of fear”.
She says the Morrison government must offer a route home for citizens “to ensure there is no misconception the ban is in any way racist”.
Arrival bans for specific countries, including China, were introduced before a public health order barring all non-citizens and permanent residents entry to Australia was made at the beginning of the pandemic in early 2020.

But the suspension of direct flights from India – until at least 15 May – is the first time Australian citizens have essentially been banned from entering their own country.

Almost 100 countries have had days with more cases per capita than India, according to Our World in Data statistics analysed by Guardian Australia.

The UK and US were also responsible for a greater share of overseas acquired cases in Australia at the height of their outbreaks, according to data released by the New South Wales health department.

In NSW, 41% of Covid-19 cases acquired overseas in December were from the United States.

While India is the largest source of overseas acquired cases in the latest data, from 17 April, the country accounted for just 21% of overseas infections in the preceding four weeks.

At the beginning of January, the height of their most recent outbreaks, the United Kingdom and the United States recorded 1,004 and 907 new cases per million people per day.

India hit a high watermark of 225 new cases per million last week. India does have one of the largest case totals in raw numbers, however, with over 17m cases as of 26 April.

NSW Health has released data on overseas acquired infections by source country since November. Examining the past five months, it can be seen that India, the UK and the US all had similar numbers of resident returns in the past year – 11,760 then 12,510 and 10,990 respectively.

But significantly more residents returned from the United Kingdom and the United States over the three months to January than from India.

Responding to the figures, Collignon said “the fear factor has now come into this”.

“I look at the numbers and I’m not sure the rates are higher in India, that the risk is all that different. We need to rethink blanket bans because I’m not sure it’s being done on a consistent basis,” he said.

[“There are Australians there and I don’t think it’s reasonable to stop them coming to Australia.”

Collignon urged the federal government to resume arrivals from India and use a single quarantine site for them similar to a medical hotel used by some states for infected arrivals.
He said even if the government was afraid travellers will have Covid or could catch it in Australian quarantine, it was ethically obliged to allow them to return, because they may not be able to access a hospital in India.

“Australians are going to be much better off if they develop Covid here where they can access hospitals. We should look at accepting that risk.”

McLaws agreed that even though there was an ethical responsibility to ensure returning travellers would be safe in quarantine and not contract Covid, there was also a responsibility to ensure Australians in India had access to health care – something it could only guarantee by repatriating them.

She also questioned why a flight ban was not put in place when larger spikes were recorded in other countries. In response to the UK wave in December, the Australian government introduced a requirement for arrivals to have a negative PCR test 72 hours before departure to Australia, something still in place for all arrivals.

“As a multicultural country that loves their multicultural community, it is beholden to the authorities to care for that multicultural community that needs to come home and for them to come home safely,” McLaws said.

She said the government’s ban meant some vulnerable Australians could contract Covid in India and die. It ignored the fact many people had been trying to return before the current wave but couldn’t due to flight caps.

To increase the safety of hotel quarantine, McLaws believes Indian arrivals should be tested far more regularly and positive cases diverted to separate facilities sooner in their infectious period.

“This [flight ban] is a knee jerk reaction,” she said. “I can understand the government is worried about India but it’s still a knee jerk reaction.”
Australia are not the only country to deal in racism when it comes to India. Indeed I’d argue that the U.K. are doing it too by putting them on MHQ whilst other countries weren’t - the fact is though that Australia are using their own citizens as collateral damage for this policy.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

The per capita card. You utter mug.

Not an exhaustive list, but:
  • Where are these cases concentrated;
    How many infected from any one of several departure points are slipping through to countries like Aus and NZ;
    Can we rely on the Covid tests coming out of some countries, or it there a risk that the test results have been purchased;
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Ted. »

Farva wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:01 am
Ted. wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:34 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:47 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:44 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:41 am Would a few cases slip by? Yes, probably. But it's really just not that big a deal.
I think you'll find the vast majority of Australians would disagree with you Mog.
The vast majority of Australians seem to think they are dealing with something between ebola and the black plague. I had a coronavirus. I had a headache for a day.
Just about the stupidest single post I have scene on the Coronavirus topic. Just about, because I am fairly certain that Mogg has probably uttered something more inanely tiresome and will have at least a decent crack at topping it.
But actually accurate.
Covid is demonstrably much worse than Ebola. Ebola has killed at best somewhere around a few thousand people. Covid has so far killed a recorded 3m but probably substantially more.
Black Plague on the other hand, over the various outbreaks, has killed hundreds of millions (50m during the Justinian plague, 200m during the black deaths and millions others with ongoing outbreaks). Covid is nowhere near as bad as that.
So it’s somewhere between the two.
God Australians are clever.
Maybe so, but not your boy, Mog.

For a start, it's the Black Death, or The Plague.

Further, if we're comparing apples with apples, we would be looking at current Ebola vs current Black Death/Yersinia pestis vs COVID-19 (Coronavirus). On that basis, Coronavirus wins hands down.



Sorry, forgot to include a :smug:
Last edited by Ted. on Sun May 02, 2021 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by jambanja »

Ted. wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:34 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:47 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:44 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:41 am Would a few cases slip by? Yes, probably. But it's really just not that big a deal.
I think you'll find the vast majority of Australians would disagree with you Mog.
The vast majority of Australians seem to think they are dealing with something between ebola and the black plague. I had a coronavirus. I had a headache for a day.
Just about the stupidest single post I have scene on the Coronavirus topic. Just about, because I am fairly certain that Mogg has probably uttered something more inanely tiresome and will have at least a decent crack at topping it.
So stupid he’s gone back and edited the post

I have a mate in the states, his wife and mother of two teenagers got it and she died last week, she was 46 and healthy
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UncleFB
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by UncleFB »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:35 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:30 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:12 pm
MungoMan wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:31 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:04 am
This is just a demonstration of how completely clueless and shit people are at analysing this. No offence again, you're not the only one.

Do you know how many people the flu kills in Australia every year? While you're Googling that, keep in mind that it includes are high percentage of babies and children who are, unlike corona, particularly susceptible.
If you had any clue whatsofúckingever about influenza in Australia I suspect you wouldn't have posted such arrant nonsense.

According to the Cwth Department of Health's influenza season summaries, flu fatalities across completed reporting seasons (generally, late April to late September altho' it varies a bit) are all over the place like a madwoman's shit. See below:
2020 - 37
2019 - 812
2018 - 57
2017 - 745
2016 - 92
2015 - 97
2014 - 57
2013 - 27

Even allowing for the mandated flu reporting season not being an entire year plus yada yada in re reporting methodology (see DOH boilerplate in footnote*), only two of those eight years could come close to matching COVID-19 associated deaths in Australia from early 2020 until now.

The other thing is that, in Australia at least, your following assertion is bollocks: 'keep in mind that it includes are high percentage of babies and children who are, unlike corona, particularly susceptible.'.

The report for each of year listed above gives a median age for influenza fatalities and, for five of those years the median age was 80 or greater, for one between 60 and 70, and for two between 60 and 70. Nothing bears out 'high percentage' or 'particularly susceptible', although the ranges provided in certain reports make it clear that influenza in Australia from 2013 until now has killed some of the very young whereas COVID-19 has not. (I haven't located a confirmed local COVID-19 associated death of anyone younger than 20).

Finally, no googles were molested in the making of this post. I bookmarked the Cwth DOH influenza reporting page last year and know where to locate ABC News' COVID-19 stats page.


* Note that the number of influenza-associated deaths reported to the NNDSS does not represent the true mortality associated with this disease. The number of deaths is reliant on the follow up of cases to determine the outcome of their infection. The follow up of cases is not a requirement of notification, and are only inclusive of laboratory-confirmed cases of influenza. Due to retrospective revision, the variation across jurisdictions in methodology, representativeness and timeliness of death data, and reporting of an outcome of infection not being a requirement of notification, year on year comparisons of deaths in notified cases of influenza may not be reliable.
It's not ignorant nonsense, but congratulations on your Googling skills, whether you had it bookmarked from a previous Google or not.

The point was that CI said that even 1000 deaths it too many. I've heard other posters say that even one death is too many. Flu deaths in Australia have been known to push 1000 a year during a bad year, but we're not banning citizens from entering the country on those years. That was (I thought quite obviously) the point you knuckle-dragger. Not that the flu is just as deadly as coronavirus.
So how many times more than the average flu deaths do you think a pandemic (any pandemic) needs to have before you allow countries to protect their citizens the way Oz and NZ have been doing?
I don't know, but it would have to be a shit load more serious a situation than what it is to hang your countrymen out to dry. That is not anything to be proud about (and don't even know if NZ are doing that, are they?).

To be clear, nobody is suggesting a free for all. Just that considering the Liberals have billions to spend on submarines and fighter jets, I'm sure they can splash out a bit and make it happen in a safe and effective manner when their citizens actually do need them the most. Instead they're effectively locking them out with the zombie hoard so they can drink beer and watch little league games without even a 0.00001% risk to themselves.

Dipshits cheering-on this shitshow need their heads read. It's a purely political, cowardly and selfish policy.
In that case, since Covid is not such a big deal then it’s really not that big a deal that Aussies in India wait a few weeks before they return.

Your hyperbole is off the charts.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Thomas »

jambanja wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:26 am So stupid he’s gone back and edited the post

I have a mate in the states, his wife and mother of two teenagers got it and she died last week, she was 46 and healthy
Mog is a walking, talking bag of shit. He's only a few more hours of listening to Rogan away from having a full meltdown.

My good family friend is a doctor in Michigan who runs an ICU in a small regional hospital. Since early last year all he has been doing is choosing who lives and dies. 14-16 hour days starting with him going over the charts deciding who they can treat and who they can't. Then he organises video link ups for family members so they can say their last goodbyes.

That's all he's been doing for a year.

But Mog got a headache. Lucky Mog.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by towny »

Farva wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:50 pm India has fewer recorded cases per capita.
But estimates suggest that only between 1 in 10 to 1 in 30 cases are actually recorded.

Regardless, what we are seeing is a heavy uptick in the the number of cases recorded in hotel quarantine.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavir ... 1f5e63f2d6

That is the driver for this policy.

There is plenty of debate as to whether it’s an ethical policy. For me it’s not. I think we should be doing everything possible to keep our people safe.
Good post!
Data is behind the reason to stop flights. Actual cases where the virus has leaked quarantine and risked the entire strategy.

This is effective because it buy time to work out what’s going on and to mitigate risks. It sucks for those Australians who want to return from India, but lots of things suck for lots of people. This is the trade-off.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by towny »

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 am I'm in a mixed mind at this response.

It's probably correct but also completely necessary due to the Feds Bungling of Covid from day 1.

The Vaccine Rollout is a shambles - I am not confident that overseas Australians are getting the support they need from the Consulates.

As for Racism? Sadly, it does still exist in bigger pockets that most of us would be comfortable with.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by towny »

Jaysus.
India is going to have to ride this out and it may be truly tragic.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by les@mooloolaba »

Thomas wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:38 am
jambanja wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:26 am So stupid he’s gone back and edited the post

I have a mate in the states, his wife and mother of two teenagers got it and she died last week, she was 46 and healthy
Mog is a walking, talking bag of shit. He's only a few more hours of listening to Rogan away from having a full meltdown.

My good family friend is a doctor in Michigan who runs an ICU in a small regional hospital. Since early last year all he has been doing is choosing who lives and dies. 14-16 hour days starting with him going over the charts deciding who they can treat and who they can't. Then he organises video link ups for family members so they can say their last goodbyes.

That's all he's been doing for a year.

But Mog got a headache. Luck Mog.
And what a lot people don’t acknowledge is that there is a lot people who have had the virus that have chronic issues that don’t go away and may be with them for the rest of their lives. Some such as mog get over it quick but there are plenty that don’t.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Brumbie_Steve »

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 am I'm in a mixed mind at this response.

It's probably correct but also completely necessary due to the Feds Bungling of Covid from day 1.

The Vaccine Rollout is a shambles - I am not confident that overseas Australians are getting the support they need from the Consulates.

As for Racism? Sadly, it does still exist in bigger pockets that most of us would be comfortable with.
and you base this on what exactly? What is it that you expect that they can do?
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Sandstorm »

Aussies stuck in India might get their first jab before Aussies at home.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by towny »

Brumbie_Steve wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 am I'm in a mixed mind at this response.

It's probably correct but also completely necessary due to the Feds Bungling of Covid from day 1.

The Vaccine Rollout is a shambles - I am not confident that overseas Australians are getting the support they need from the Consulates.

As for Racism? Sadly, it does still exist in bigger pockets that most of us would be comfortable with.
and you base this on what exactly? What is it that you expect that they can do?
I think it's a fair citicism but I'm not sure what the solution is. The government early on made a statement giving us all a deadline to return home or be left out of their plans. It was harsh but justified in my opinion. Whether or not everyone agrees that this was right, it's hard to argue that the expats weren't given a clear choice. Getting home now is a nightmare and it doesn't appear to be a priority for the Government, but they told us this would be the case.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by towny »

I would like to thank those non-Australians screaming on behalf of Australian expats who've been wrongly done by. I appreciate your concern.

The situation sucks and it isn't fair that my rights were taken away. However, I agree with the Australian government - the best thing they can do is keep the place locked tight until they've reached a point where normal service can resume. if I miss my sister's wedding or if something happens to my parents then that's the price of the trade-off that must be paid.

Let me just say - I'm a pretty passionate guy, and I find it a bit weird that people not involved feel in any way feel more passionately than I do about the injustices I am facing.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Well said GS.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by bimboman »

Ted. wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:34 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:47 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:44 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:41 am Would a few cases slip by? Yes, probably. But it's really just not that big a deal.
I think you'll find the vast majority of Australians would disagree with you Mog.
The vast majority of Australians seem to think they are dealing with something between ebola and the black plague. I had a coronavirus. I had a headache for a day.
Just about the stupidest single post I have scene on the Coronavirus topic. Just about, because I am fairly certain that Mogg has probably uttered something more inanely tiresome and will have at least a decent crack at topping it.

It’s not a stupid post if the discussion is about how proportionate a response is.
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by Farva »

towny wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:33 am
Brumbie_Steve wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 am I'm in a mixed mind at this response.

It's probably correct but also completely necessary due to the Feds Bungling of Covid from day 1.

The Vaccine Rollout is a shambles - I am not confident that overseas Australians are getting the support they need from the Consulates.

As for Racism? Sadly, it does still exist in bigger pockets that most of us would be comfortable with.
and you base this on what exactly? What is it that you expect that they can do?
I think it's a fair citicism but I'm not sure what the solution is. The government early on made a statement giving us all a deadline to return home or be left out of their plans. It was harsh but justified in my opinion. Whether or not everyone agrees that this was right, it's hard to argue that the expats weren't given a clear choice. Getting home now is a nightmare and it doesn't appear to be a priority for the Government, but they told us this would be the case.
It’s a situation that is truely painful. When that announcement was made by company bought home all the expats that wanted to come, no questions asked, and got them roles in Australia. But that is because we are an Australian company.
If you had a job that wasn’t with an Australian company, by coming home then you would be unemployed, and it might cost you 10s of 1000s of dollars to do so. In that situation, I would probably have stayed. Particularly because that was March and we all expected it to be done and dusted by middle of the year.

I think the Australian govt has a duty of care to all Australians to allow them home. That duty doesn’t extend to paying for them to come home but it does mean that if they can get a flight, they should be allowed in, albeit with the quarantine requirements. I don’t like this blocking people coming in. I’m also a little uneasy with quotas for Australians (particularly with it being airline decisions on who they bump, giving preference to those that can afford business / first class - there have been a few celebrities who have been back and forward a few times, Adam Hills who came back at Xmas for a holiday and Kate Lambrook who has been back to Italy a few times to pack up, spring to mind)
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by bimboman »

Thomas wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:38 am
jambanja wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:26 am So stupid he’s gone back and edited the post

I have a mate in the states, his wife and mother of two teenagers got it and she died last week, she was 46 and healthy
Mog is a walking, talking bag of shit. He's only a few more hours of listening to Rogan away from having a full meltdown.

My good family friend is a doctor in Michigan who runs an ICU in a small regional hospital. Since early last year all he has been doing is choosing who lives and dies. 14-16 hour days starting with him going over the charts deciding who they can treat and who they can't. Then he organises video link ups for family members so they can say their last goodbyes.

That's all he's been doing for a year.

But Mog got a headache. Lucky Mog.

Wow, how has this hospital where people don’t get treated not made the news ?
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Re: Overseas Australians could face jail for trying to come home

Post by towny »

Farva wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:25 am
towny wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:33 am
Brumbie_Steve wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 am
Pat the Ex Mat wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 am I'm in a mixed mind at this response.

It's probably correct but also completely necessary due to the Feds Bungling of Covid from day 1.

The Vaccine Rollout is a shambles - I am not confident that overseas Australians are getting the support they need from the Consulates.

As for Racism? Sadly, it does still exist in bigger pockets that most of us would be comfortable with.
and you base this on what exactly? What is it that you expect that they can do?
I think it's a fair citicism but I'm not sure what the solution is. The government early on made a statement giving us all a deadline to return home or be left out of their plans. It was harsh but justified in my opinion. Whether or not everyone agrees that this was right, it's hard to argue that the expats weren't given a clear choice. Getting home now is a nightmare and it doesn't appear to be a priority for the Government, but they told us this would be the case.
It’s a situation that is truely painful. When that announcement was made by company bought home all the expats that wanted to come, no questions asked, and got them roles in Australia. But that is because we are an Australian company.
If you had a job that wasn’t with an Australian company, by coming home then you would be unemployed, and it might cost you 10s of 1000s of dollars to do so. In that situation, I would probably have stayed. Particularly because that was March and we all expected it to be done and dusted by middle of the year.

I think the Australian govt has a duty of care to all Australians to allow them home. That duty doesn’t extend to paying for them to come home but it does mean that if they can get a flight, they should be allowed in, albeit with the quarantine requirements. I don’t like this blocking people coming in. I’m also a little uneasy with quotas for Australians (particularly with it being airline decisions on who they bump, giving preference to those that can afford business / first class - there have been a few celebrities who have been back and forward a few times, Adam Hills who came back at Xmas for a holiday and Kate Lambrook who has been back to Italy a few times to pack up, spring to mind)
The main thing stopping us come home is the price of the flights.

The govt doesn’t choose the class of travel - airlines do that. It’s supply and demand to them, and so sell tickets to those willing to pay. There are few flights into Australia and if there is a spot open in the quarantine system and there’s a $30k plane ticket available, then why should we worry about who buys the ticket?

I can’t imagine there’s a celebrity hotline that people like Adam Hills and Kate Lambrook would have access to.
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