Captain's Challenge Farce

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Ali's Choice
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Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Ali's Choice »

The Captain's Challenge has been trialled in this year's SR Aotearoa comp, but I think a farcical incident last night will see it scrapped forever.

The Chiefs scored a good try late in the first half after many phases of build-up close to the Blues tryline. The Blues captain Tom Robinson challenged it, citing a knock on. This was overruled, but whilst reviewing the incident the TMO found an offside by the Chiefs that everyone had missed. So the ruling was 'no try' and penalty to the Blues. Except prior to the try being scored the Chiefs had been operating under a string of penalty advantages, and it was clear the match referee had no idea if these advantages were called before or after the penalty that was found by the TMO. It was a farce and showed that such a system cannot work in Rugby when advantages are long and frequent and every breakdown can contain multiple law infringements that will be missed by the on-field referee.
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Enzedder
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Enzedder »

The law says that the reason for the review must be explicit and requested promptly. There must be clear evidence for a decision to be overturned.

So far so good.

No clear evidence of a knock on so original decision should be upheld.

Review ends.

That is what should have happened
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Ali's Choice »

Enzedder wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:32 am The law says that the reason for the review must be explicit and requested promptly. There must be clear evidence for a decision to be overturned.

So far so good.

No clear evidence of a knock on so original decision should be upheld.

Review ends.

That is what should have happened
I can see your point. The Blues lost their captain's challenge because Robinson's initial complaint was not upheld, but the try was still disallowed and the Blues secured a penalty instead of a scrum. So despite being unsuccessful, Robinson got a better result than he had hoped for.

What made the whole thing even more farcical is that I think there was a clear knock on as well, that the TMO missed. It was an absolute debacle from start to finish. I felt sorry for the in field referee, he was made to look like an idiot by his employers as a result of a poorly thought out trial.
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Monkey Magic
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Monkey Magic »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:38 am
Enzedder wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:32 am The law says that the reason for the review must be explicit and requested promptly. There must be clear evidence for a decision to be overturned.

So far so good.

No clear evidence of a knock on so original decision should be upheld.

Review ends.

That is what should have happened
I can see your point. The Blues lost their captain's challenge because Robinson's initial complaint was not upheld, but the try was still disallowed and the Blues secured a penalty instead of a scrum. So despite being unsuccessful, Robinson got a better result than he had hoped for.

What made the whole thing even more farcical is that I think there was a clear knock on as well, that the TMO missed. It was an absolute debacle from start to finish. I felt sorry for the in field referee, he was made to look like an idiot by his employers as a result of a poorly thought out trial.
The ref seemed to get confirmation on if advantage was before or after the incident from the tmo, the tmo said it came after.

On the captains challenge did he lose it because in the second half they challenged whether a try had been scored when blues went close and the ref had called a scrum.

Personally I would prefer the challenge and also the line dropout for held up scrapped.
Dan54.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Dan54. »

They can scrap the whole lot of trial laws/rules in both comps. And I still haven't heard if any are being used in TT.
Bottom line is there is not a hell of a lot wrong with laws fo games, if they are played too!
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UncleFB
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by UncleFB »

Enzedder wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:32 am The law says that the reason for the review must be explicit and requested promptly. There must be clear evidence for a decision to be overturned.

So far so good.

No clear evidence of a knock on so original decision should be upheld.

Review ends.

That is what should have happened
But then we’re all sitting their knowing one team got advantage from a technicality of the review rules even though we can see the offence.

At any rate, even as a chiefs fan I think he clearly lost if forward, not sure how the TMO reached his decision.
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Peteray
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Peteray »

The puzzling thing for me was that Fraser called his first penalty advantage BEFORE that horrible TTT pass, and Reiko Ioane was then a mile offside at that ruck, before the 'knock-on.'

At the very least, the referee's boss should be on The Breakdown this week to explain the process, the law, and what SHOULD have happened. Not as a witch hunt, but for clarity.

And yes... the captain's challenge seems a great idea in theory, but in practice, I'm not so sure any more.
obelixtim
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by obelixtim »

How much time is wasted while the game stops for these stupid challenges. They are a farce. Last week a game ran for another 20 minutes because of all the stoppages. Endless looks at tries that are scored are another waste of time. Just get on with the game. Ditch the challenges. The refs might get a few calls wrong but over time they will balance out.

Rugby is going down the road of American football, where a 60 minute game lasts 3 hours because of all the breaks in play.

Its becoming easier to switch off rugby and do other things instead.
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booji boy
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by booji boy »

I can't stand watching live rugby anymore due to these drawn out TMO decisions, captains calls, foul play reviews etc.

Watching 20 slow motion replays from multiple angles followed by a referees committee meeting to debate the outcome and STILL come up with the wrong decision is not why I watch rugby.

Thankfully with Sky I can record the games and cue through the bollocks and just get to the decision one way or another.
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kiwigreg369
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Yep - I watch almost no live rugby at all (unless out with friends).
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kiwigreg369
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by kiwigreg369 »

On call challenge - kak idea. Loved the highlanders on on Friday which showed their foul play. Some folks a stupid...
Couch
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Couch »

Challenges is just a cheap way to let the refs off the hook for being useless for not picking it up in real time. TMOs also should only rule on on field refs questions and not find fault after the infringements unless looking for foul play.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Ali's Choice »

UncleFB wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:51 am At any rate, even as a chiefs fan I think he clearly lost if forward, not sure how the TMO reached his decision.
Yep, was a clear knock on, which only added to the farcical nature of the incident.
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Jerome Manning
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Jerome Manning »

Just got a silly one in the NRL Warriors v Cowboys.

It doesn't work in rugby/league because it's too dynamic. It works in cricket because the game literally stops after every ball.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Toro »

The ball is hit backwards even though it appears to end up in front if him. The offside call makes no sense however as the ball went backwards so it's open play. He can't play the ball in front if it went back. :-?
towny
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by towny »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:23 am The Captain's Challenge has been trialled in this year's SR Aotearoa comp, but I think a farcical incident last night will see it scrapped forever.

The Chiefs scored a good try late in the first half after many phases of build-up close to the Blues tryline. The Blues captain Tom Robinson challenged it, citing a knock on. This was overruled, but whilst reviewing the incident the TMO found an offside by the Chiefs that everyone had missed. So the ruling was 'no try' and penalty to the Blues. Except prior to the try being scored the Chiefs had been operating under a string of penalty advantages, and it was clear the match referee had no idea if these advantages were called before or after the penalty that was found by the TMO. It was a farce and showed that such a system cannot work in Rugby when advantages are long and frequent and every breakdown can contain multiple law infringements that will be missed by the on-field referee.
It’s a dumb concept. Get rid of it.
While you’re at it, get rid of the TMO for all things other than whether the ball was grounded.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by towny »

Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:24 am Just got a silly one in the NRL Warriors v Cowboys.

It doesn't work in rugby/league because it's too dynamic. It works in cricket because the game literally stops after every ball.
Sucks in crIcket too.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by les@mooloolaba »

Peteray wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:12 am The puzzling thing for me was that Fraser called his first penalty advantage BEFORE that horrible TTT pass, and Reiko Ioane was then a mile offside at that ruck, before the 'knock-on.'

At the very least, the referee's boss should be on The Breakdown this week to explain the process, the law, and what SHOULD have happened. Not as a witch hunt, but for clarity.

And yes... the captain's challenge seems a great idea in theory, but in practice, I'm not so sure any more.
Yeah I thought there was an earlier advantage that the ref should have gone back to. As AC said the whole thing is a farce and needs scrapping as it just adding to the stoppages.As if there isn’t enough confusion with the laws already.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by jdogscoop »

Just shows what a lot of no talents are employed as TMOs.

I too thought that was an easy call of knock on Chiefs. He tipped it over his shoulder.

I would ditch the captain's referral before 75m as a failure. Keep it for the last 5min.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Sandstorm »

Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:24 am Just got a silly one in the NRL Warriors v Cowboys.

It doesn't work in rugby/league because it's too dynamic. It works in cricket because the game literally stops after every ball.
Eh? League literally stops after every single play.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by towny »

jdogscoop wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:45 am Just shows what a lot of no talents are employed as TMOs.

I too thought that was an easy call of knock on Chiefs. He tipped it over his shoulder.

I would ditch the captain's referral before 75m as a failure. Keep it for the last 5min.
We've still got the confusion and frustration and the game is less entertaining. What is the point of it all?
What was wrong with a ref making decisions in real-time? These wasted minutes of watching someone decide if a fingertip touched the ball is a bad outcome. Scrap it all.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Flametop »

I really don’t think that it’s any player’s right to challenge a ref’s officiating.

That job belongs to the supporters alone.

:D
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Jensrsa
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Jensrsa »

I think the captain's challenge is a good innovation but they have to clear up the details.

In the Stormers/Sharks game there were two instances

1. The Sharks captain suggested the ref review an instance of foul play but when the ref asked if he was using his challenge he declined. Then the ref decided to review it in any case, which he probably wouldn't have done if not for the suggestion, which lead to a penalty for the Sharks.

2. In the last 5 minutes the Stormers captain asked for a review of "clear release". The TMO found that it wasn't c&o but then found another mistake (knee on the ground) leading to a penalty even though the captain had lost his challenge.

IMO the review on the captain's challenge should only concern the specifics of the challenge, nothing else
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Jerome Manning
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Jerome Manning »

Sandstorm wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:29 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:24 am Just got a silly one in the NRL Warriors v Cowboys.

It doesn't work in rugby/league because it's too dynamic. It works in cricket because the game literally stops after every ball.
Eh? League literally stops after every single play.
It doesn't. It's not like the defensive line takes a break and switches off (unless it's the Warriors). How the next play unfolds is heavily dependent on the previous play; two balls in cricket are far more independent events than two play of the balls in league.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by CM11 »

I was initially in favour (although hate the last 5 mins bollox, that was always asking for trouble) but it should be very specific. If what you're complaining about isn't upheld and the ref has missed other infringements then tough. Only serious foul play (yellow or red, not just penalty) should be allowed come into play as part of the review.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by MungoMan »

towny wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:58 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:45 am Just shows what a lot of no talents are employed as TMOs.

I too thought that was an easy call of knock on Chiefs. He tipped it over his shoulder.

I would ditch the captain's referral before 75m as a failure. Keep it for the last 5min.
We've still got the confusion and frustration and the game is less entertaining. What is the point of it all?
What was wrong with a ref making decisions in real-time? These wasted minutes of watching someone decide if a fingertip touched the ball is a bad outcome. Scrap it all.
Up their arse they stick it may
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Margin_Walker »

CM11 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:48 am I was initially in favour (although hate the last 5 mins bollox, that was always asking for trouble) but it should be very specific. If what you're complaining about isn't upheld and the ref has missed other infringements then tough. Only serious foul play (yellow or red, not just penalty) should be allowed come into play as part of the review.
Completely agree. It should be absolutely specific to the offense the captain highlights unless there's serious foul play.

Pretty much any multi phase attack will contain ruck infringements if put under a microscope.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by towny »

Margin_Walker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:27 am
CM11 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:48 am I was initially in favour (although hate the last 5 mins bollox, that was always asking for trouble) but it should be very specific. If what you're complaining about isn't upheld and the ref has missed other infringements then tough. Only serious foul play (yellow or red, not just penalty) should be allowed come into play as part of the review.
Completely agree. It should be absolutely specific to the offense the captain highlights unless there's serious foul play.

Pretty much any multi phase attack will contain ruck infringements if put under a microscope.
Exactly, which means tries in the last minute might be stopped for ‘infringements’ that weren’t picked up in the previous 75. Why have the rule? Who is it benefiting in the grand scheme of things?

Or maybe we can have stewards to confirm the winning team after the game, like in horse racing? :?
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by MungoMan »

towny wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:24 pm
Margin_Walker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:27 am
CM11 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:48 am I was initially in favour (although hate the last 5 mins bollox, that was always asking for trouble) but it should be very specific. If what you're complaining about isn't upheld and the ref has missed other infringements then tough. Only serious foul play (yellow or red, not just penalty) should be allowed come into play as part of the review.
Completely agree. It should be absolutely specific to the offense the captain highlights unless there's serious foul play.

Pretty much any multi phase attack will contain ruck infringements if put under a microscope.
Exactly, which means tries in the last minute might be stopped for ‘infringements’ that weren’t picked up in the previous 75. Why have the rule? Who is it benefiting in the grand scheme of things?

Or maybe we can have stewards to confirm the winning team after the game, like in horse racing? :?
Captain’s challenge is a studied insult to man and god. And I don’t even do god.

Rissole it with immediate effect.
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koroke hangareka
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by koroke hangareka »

towny wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:58 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:45 am Just shows what a lot of no talents are employed as TMOs.

I too thought that was an easy call of knock on Chiefs. He tipped it over his shoulder.

I would ditch the captain's referral before 75m as a failure. Keep it for the last 5min.
We've still got the confusion and frustration and the game is less entertaining. What is the point of it all?
What was wrong with a ref making decisions in real-time? These wasted minutes of watching someone decide if a fingertip touched the ball is a bad outcome. Scrap it all.
I guess it all depends on how important it is to you that the referee gets things right.

Me, I think that that's impossible to do every time and that most refs get most things right, pretty much. I'd rather get a decision, any decision, straight away and get on with it. Nobody will die if they get it wrong. But plenty of people get very incensed at refereeing mistakes, hence the endless futzing around, trying to achieve the impossible.
towny
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by towny »

koroke hangareka wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:55 pm
towny wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:58 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:45 am Just shows what a lot of no talents are employed as TMOs.

I too thought that was an easy call of knock on Chiefs. He tipped it over his shoulder.

I would ditch the captain's referral before 75m as a failure. Keep it for the last 5min.
We've still got the confusion and frustration and the game is less entertaining. What is the point of it all?
What was wrong with a ref making decisions in real-time? These wasted minutes of watching someone decide if a fingertip touched the ball is a bad outcome. Scrap it all.
I guess it all depends on how important it is to you that the referee gets things right.

Me, I think that that's impossible to do every time and that most refs get most things right, pretty much. I'd rather get a decision, any decision, straight away and get on with it. Nobody will die if they get it wrong. But plenty of people get very incensed at refereeing mistakes, hence the endless futzing around, trying to achieve the impossible.
Yep!

And the decisions in the last 5 minutes only feel more important. To ignore the importance of accuracy for 90% of the game shows it’s not a solution to a real problem.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by farmerdave »

Toro wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:40 am The ball is hit backwards even though it appears to end up in front if him. The offside call makes no sense however as the ball went backwards so it's open play. He can't play the ball in front if it went back. :-?
Basically if too players are running back covering a kick and the first touches it but over runs the second must run back to the first and then to the ball. Isn't that how it's always been ,😜
Open play, back for the penalty advantage in this case.
Scrap the review.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Sundy »

Toro wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:40 am The ball is hit backwards even though it appears to end up in front if him. The offside call makes no sense however as the ball went backwards so it's open play. He can't play the ball in front if it went back. :-?
He is ahead of his teammate player who last played the ball, that's offside. I was shocked to hear professional rugby players questions this.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by farmerdave »

Did you check someone from the chiefs hadn't put him back onside further across the field?
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Dan54. »

Sundy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:01 am
Toro wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:40 am The ball is hit backwards even though it appears to end up in front if him. The offside call makes no sense however as the ball went backwards so it's open play. He can't play the ball in front if it went back. :-?
He is ahead of his teammate player who last played the ball, that's offside. I was shocked to hear professional rugby players questions this.
Well I actually thought the offside point was where he played the ball, and as he went back behind ball and came back I surprised he offside, but I add, it's only what I THOUGHT, not knew.
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Sundy »

farmerdave wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:11 am Did you check someone from the chiefs hadn't put him back onside further across the field?


Why would I check?
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Monkey Magic »

Dan54. wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:30 am
Sundy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:01 am
Toro wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:40 am The ball is hit backwards even though it appears to end up in front if him. The offside call makes no sense however as the ball went backwards so it's open play. He can't play the ball in front if it went back. :-?
He is ahead of his teammate player who last played the ball, that's offside. I was shocked to hear professional rugby players questions this.
Well I actually thought the offside point was where he played the ball, and as he went back behind ball and came back I surprised he offside, but I add, it's only what I THOUGHT, not knew.
Didn't think he got behind the ball but just grabbed it while he was running back?
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Dan54. »

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:28 am
Dan54. wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:30 am
Sundy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:01 am
Toro wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:40 am The ball is hit backwards even though it appears to end up in front if him. The offside call makes no sense however as the ball went backwards so it's open play. He can't play the ball in front if it went back. :-?
He is ahead of his teammate player who last played the ball, that's offside. I was shocked to hear professional rugby players questions this.
Well I actually thought the offside point was where he played the ball, and as he went back behind ball and came back I surprised he offside, but I add, it's only what I THOUGHT, not knew.
Didn't think he got behind the ball but just grabbed it while he was running back?
No mate, he had turned back toward the goal line I thought and came from that side of ball. But I haven't looked at it a lot, so may of got it wrong.
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Monkey Magic
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Monkey Magic »

Dan54. wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:52 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:28 am
Dan54. wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:30 am
Sundy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:01 am
Toro wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:40 am The ball is hit backwards even though it appears to end up in front if him. The offside call makes no sense however as the ball went backwards so it's open play. He can't play the ball in front if it went back. :-?
He is ahead of his teammate player who last played the ball, that's offside. I was shocked to hear professional rugby players questions this.
Well I actually thought the offside point was where he played the ball, and as he went back behind ball and came back I surprised he offside, but I add, it's only what I THOUGHT, not knew.
Didn't think he got behind the ball but just grabbed it while he was running back?
No mate, he had turned back toward the goal line I thought and came from that side of ball. But I haven't looked at it a lot, so may of got it wrong.
Well now I'm just going to go down a YouTube rabbit hole looking for the footage. See you in 3 hours
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Auckman
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Re: Captain's Challenge Farce

Post by Auckman »

I thought it was a knock-on. Why was it not a knock-on? It was knocked towards the goal line the Chiefs were attacking by about 2 metres!
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