Australia desperate for a war with China

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Ali's Choice
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Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Ali's Choice »

It appears that our Defence Minister Peter Dutton is determined to talk Australia into a war with China. We are "Talking loudly and carrying a very small stick". The cynic in me cannot shake the suspicion that this has nothing to with keeping Australia safe from China and everything to do with the Federal Governments political aspirations, and Peter Dutton's personal leadership aspirations.
Dutton vows to call out Beijing and declares everyday Australians are with the government
Anthony Galloway
By Anthony Galloway
May 3, 2021 — 5.00am

Defence Minister Peter Dutton has vowed to speak out more openly about China’s acts of aggression, declaring everyday Australians are with the government and understand the threats posed by Beijing.

Mr Dutton warned Australia was “already under attack” in the cyber world and suggested the nation’s cyber spy agency would need to be beefed up in the coming years to fight against the escalating wave of hack attacks.

In an exclusive interview with The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, Mr Dutton said the Australian Defence Force was prepared for action, saying the country needed to be in a position to defend its waters in the north and west as a clear priority.

The comments confirm a recent hardening of the Morrison government’s rhetoric, including towards China, and suggest it wants to have a more public discussion with Australians as it looks to spend more on defence capabilities amid a regional arms race fuelled by China’s growing assertiveness throughout the Indo-Pacific.

The Defence Minister last week angered the Chinese government by saying a conflict over Taiwan could not be discounted, while Home Affairs secretary Michael Pezzullo declared the “drums of war” were beating without naming any potential adversaries.

The comments sparked China’s ambassador to Australia, Cheng Jingye, to issue a veiled threat that Chinese students and tourists will be reluctant to return to Australia because of a hostile environment.

But Mr Dutton was unapologetic about the remarks, saying China had been “very clear about their strategy, their approach and their desires and so pretending it’s not being said or turning a blind eye to it is not in our national interest”.

“The views that matter to me are Australians who are living across cities, towns and suburbs across the country. And they know that we are saying is factually based,” he said.

“I think part of the public is frankly ahead of where the public debate is because there’s just so much information available online. People see the reported comments of the ambassador and the vice ambassador here, as well as the spokesman out of Beijing.”

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He said he wanted to have a “more frank discussion with the public” about China’s intentions.

However, former Labor prime minister Kevin Rudd said “the public language of Morrison, Dutton and Pezzullo on China, Taiwan and the possibility of war in the last week serves zero national security purpose”.

“Australia already has a highly problematic relationship with China,” Mr Rudd said.

“Much of this is because of changes in Chinese policy and posture under a much more assertive Xi Jinping. But it is also because Morrison et al. are addicted to the drug of ‘standing up to China’ every day of the week because of its perceived domestic political utility. ”

Mr Dutton said he would not rule out naming the countries behind cyber attacks if the government was certain and doing so didn’t reveal any previously secret capabilities of the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD).

“Where it’s in our interests to call out – whether it’s Russia or China or North Korea or somebody else – we will call them out,” he said. “There’s a lot of capacity that Australia has in the cyber space that clearly we wouldn’t talk publicly about, but gives us a very significant edge over many adversaries, even sophisticated adversaries.”

He said the ASD was “quite remarkable and world-leading” but “there’s more that we need to do”.

Australian military planners have been increasingly concerned about the threat of “grey zone” warfare, which refers to aggressions that fall somewhere between what we traditionally view as war and peace. It includes cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, intellectual property theft and propaganda.

A state actor, believed to be China, was last year behind a series of cyber raids on all levels of government, industry and critical infrastructure including hospitals, local councils and state-owned utilities.

Asked what the country needed to do to defend against grey zone warfare, Mr Dutton said Australians needed to understand that “we’re already under attack on the cyber front”.

“Under attack by state actors, under attack from very sophisticated criminal syndicates based in the Middle East, based in Asia and based in Europe,” he said. “So that’s the reality and it’s not seen and there’s no casualties on the battlefield but there are companies and victims every day.”

Australia has begun the process of acquiring long-range missiles to protect overseas forces, allies and the mainland, include fitting out Australia’s naval fleet with advanced guided long-range weapons to defend against maritime threats and potentially buying a range of hypersonic missiles.

Mr Dutton said the Australian government’s first priority was “continued peace in our region”, but warned the country needed to “have influence in the region to that end”.

“Is the Australian Defence Force prepared for an action – whether it’s tomorrow, or in 10 years, or three decades time? Yes, I believe they are,” he said. “The focus has clearly been in Afghanistan for the last 20 years, but Defence has been very focused on our region and preparation in our region for a number of years, and that will continue.”

“There are many approaches to Australia from the north and the west and clearly from the east obviously as well. So we need to make sure we are in a position to defend those waters, we need to make sure that we’re in a position to deal with criminal actors who are sophisticated using major naval assets in our waters so protection for our borders and our waters ot the north and west remains a clear priority.”

Labor’s defence spokesman Brendan O’Connor said Mr Pezzullo’s comments last week “were not particularly helpful”.

“If indeed there is a need to say such things … then they should have been said by a Minister,” he told the ABC’s Insiders program on Sunday.

Sam Roggeveen, director of the Lowy Institute’s international security program, said the threat of conflict has increased and some of the reaction to both Mr Dutton and Mr Pezzullo’s comments has been over-the-top.

“The chances of conflict remain very, very low. But the point is really that the threat of force as a method of coercion has increased,” he said.
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Zakar
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Zakar »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:50 pm It appears that our Defence Minister Peter Dutton is determined to talk Australia into a war with China. We are "Talking loudly and carrying a very small stick". The cynic in me cannot shake the suspicion that this has nothing to with keeping Australia safe from China and everything to do with the Federal Governments political aspirations, and Peter Dutton's personal leadership aspirations.
Dutton vows to call out Beijing and declares everyday Australians are with the government
Anthony Galloway
By Anthony Galloway
May 3, 2021 — 5.00am

Defence Minister Peter Dutton has vowed to speak out more openly about China’s acts of aggression, declaring everyday Australians are with the government and understand the threats posed by Beijing.

Mr Dutton warned Australia was “already under attack” in the cyber world and suggested the nation’s cyber spy agency would need to be beefed up in the coming years to fight against the escalating wave of hack attacks.

In an exclusive interview with The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, Mr Dutton said the Australian Defence Force was prepared for action, saying the country needed to be in a position to defend its waters in the north and west as a clear priority.

The comments confirm a recent hardening of the Morrison government’s rhetoric, including towards China, and suggest it wants to have a more public discussion with Australians as it looks to spend more on defence capabilities amid a regional arms race fuelled by China’s growing assertiveness throughout the Indo-Pacific.

The Defence Minister last week angered the Chinese government by saying a conflict over Taiwan could not be discounted, while Home Affairs secretary Michael Pezzullo declared the “drums of war” were beating without naming any potential adversaries.

The comments sparked China’s ambassador to Australia, Cheng Jingye, to issue a veiled threat that Chinese students and tourists will be reluctant to return to Australia because of a hostile environment.

But Mr Dutton was unapologetic about the remarks, saying China had been “very clear about their strategy, their approach and their desires and so pretending it’s not being said or turning a blind eye to it is not in our national interest”.

“The views that matter to me are Australians who are living across cities, towns and suburbs across the country. And they know that we are saying is factually based,” he said.

“I think part of the public is frankly ahead of where the public debate is because there’s just so much information available online. People see the reported comments of the ambassador and the vice ambassador here, as well as the spokesman out of Beijing.”

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He said he wanted to have a “more frank discussion with the public” about China’s intentions.

However, former Labor prime minister Kevin Rudd said “the public language of Morrison, Dutton and Pezzullo on China, Taiwan and the possibility of war in the last week serves zero national security purpose”.

“Australia already has a highly problematic relationship with China,” Mr Rudd said.

“Much of this is because of changes in Chinese policy and posture under a much more assertive Xi Jinping. But it is also because Morrison et al. are addicted to the drug of ‘standing up to China’ every day of the week because of its perceived domestic political utility. ”

Mr Dutton said he would not rule out naming the countries behind cyber attacks if the government was certain and doing so didn’t reveal any previously secret capabilities of the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD).

“Where it’s in our interests to call out – whether it’s Russia or China or North Korea or somebody else – we will call them out,” he said. “There’s a lot of capacity that Australia has in the cyber space that clearly we wouldn’t talk publicly about, but gives us a very significant edge over many adversaries, even sophisticated adversaries.”

He said the ASD was “quite remarkable and world-leading” but “there’s more that we need to do”.

Australian military planners have been increasingly concerned about the threat of “grey zone” warfare, which refers to aggressions that fall somewhere between what we traditionally view as war and peace. It includes cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, intellectual property theft and propaganda.

A state actor, believed to be China, was last year behind a series of cyber raids on all levels of government, industry and critical infrastructure including hospitals, local councils and state-owned utilities.

Asked what the country needed to do to defend against grey zone warfare, Mr Dutton said Australians needed to understand that “we’re already under attack on the cyber front”.

“Under attack by state actors, under attack from very sophisticated criminal syndicates based in the Middle East, based in Asia and based in Europe,” he said. “So that’s the reality and it’s not seen and there’s no casualties on the battlefield but there are companies and victims every day.”

Australia has begun the process of acquiring long-range missiles to protect overseas forces, allies and the mainland, include fitting out Australia’s naval fleet with advanced guided long-range weapons to defend against maritime threats and potentially buying a range of hypersonic missiles.

Mr Dutton said the Australian government’s first priority was “continued peace in our region”, but warned the country needed to “have influence in the region to that end”.

“Is the Australian Defence Force prepared for an action – whether it’s tomorrow, or in 10 years, or three decades time? Yes, I believe they are,” he said. “The focus has clearly been in Afghanistan for the last 20 years, but Defence has been very focused on our region and preparation in our region for a number of years, and that will continue.”

“There are many approaches to Australia from the north and the west and clearly from the east obviously as well. So we need to make sure we are in a position to defend those waters, we need to make sure that we’re in a position to deal with criminal actors who are sophisticated using major naval assets in our waters so protection for our borders and our waters ot the north and west remains a clear priority.”

Labor’s defence spokesman Brendan O’Connor said Mr Pezzullo’s comments last week “were not particularly helpful”.

“If indeed there is a need to say such things … then they should have been said by a Minister,” he told the ABC’s Insiders program on Sunday.

Sam Roggeveen, director of the Lowy Institute’s international security program, said the threat of conflict has increased and some of the reaction to both Mr Dutton and Mr Pezzullo’s comments has been over-the-top.

“The chances of conflict remain very, very low. But the point is really that the threat of force as a method of coercion has increased,” he said.
We've always been at war with Eastasia.
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Farva
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Farva »

This war discussion is the Coalitions way of deflecting from the poor vaccine rollout.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Ali's Choice »

Farva wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:17 pm This war discussion is the Coalitions way of deflecting from the poor vaccine rollout.
Totally. They are creating a diversion/distraction. But it's such a high-stakes diversion. We are now openly talking about waging war on the 2nd largest military on Earth, who also happen to be our largest trading partner. This seems crazy.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by MungoMan »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:19 pm
Farva wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:17 pm This war discussion is the Coalitions way of deflecting from the poor vaccine rollout.
Totally. They are creating a diversion/distraction. But it's such a high-stakes diversion. We are now openly talking about waging war on the 2nd largest military on Earth, who also happen to be our largest trading partner. This seems crazy.
What it seems is desperate. Which, were it not for the stakes, would be most encouraging.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

New Zealand is clearly a lot smarter of a country than Australia. NZ is following a path of peace and knows full well that China is here to stay and therefore it is far better to have a reasonable relationship with them, one that benefits all. It is worth noting that NZ is a nation that after a tricky start as settled down and lived harmoniously with the native population, even to the point of celebrating it and making their culture front and centre of who they are.

Australia is very different, it is getting egged on by the US and UK to antagonise China at every opportunity, and is pretty eager to impressive its anglosphere buddies from oceans away. Australia has been threatened and pushed into their behaviour and is buying into the 5 eyes narrative that the world must be run by white anglosphere people, in its entirety, and there is no room for any alternatives. This is a dangerous mindset and comes across to the rest of the world as a fairly distasteful one, even if they are not being too vocal about it at the moment. It is noted. I can see, later on, this behaviour will be cast up to the people who pushed this agenda when the inevitable multipolar world becomes clearer. It is worth noting that unlike NZ the Australians have long taken a very different approach to the native populations than their neighbours and aggressively worked for different outcomes. The indigenous population have been decimated and stands no higher today than it was over 200 years ago. This is utterly shameful. Many people around the world can see the similarities in ideals, monocultural aspirations and the history of racial oppression between Australia and the US and are not surprised that they have both come to the same conclusions about the thought of any non-causaciaan culture having any idea of having an equal footing in the world.

We are at a pivotal moment in history and I fear that history might not judge us very well on this but we won't have the power to whitewash it away this time.

Bottom line NZ good, Australia bad right now. Outside of our every shrinking bubble, the world is silently watching and making notes.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

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I think Australia's pluck and fortitude in the face of relentless Chinese bullying is absolutely magnificent :thumbup:
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

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I don't think Australia is acting alone. China have already taken punitive meaaures against Australia. IMO Australia are testing the waters for the US and European allies. Making China show it's cards, rather than continuously chipping away at the US in a cold war.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

CrazyIslander wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:54 pm I don't think Australia is acting alone. China have already taken punitive meaaures against Australia. IMO Australia are testing the waters for the US and European allies. Making China show it's cards, rather than continuously chipping away at the US in a cold war.
It doesn't say much for the US and UK if they think a nation would just show cards like that. It is worse that Australia is allowing itself to be a useful idiot while destroying its own economy.
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CrazyIslander
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by CrazyIslander »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:56 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:54 pm I don't think Australia is acting alone. China have already taken punitive meaaures against Australia. IMO Australia are testing the waters for the US and European allies. Making China show it's cards, rather than continuously chipping away at the US in a cold war.
It doesn't say much for the US and UK if they think a nation would just show cards like that. It is worse that Australia is allowing itself to be a useful idiot while destroying its own economy.
Australian economy is fine tbh. But China is an ancient country, an imperialism is in their blood, their history is full of empires and dynasties. Do you think they're going to resist imperial urges when they're at their most powerful? It's clear what they want but what's not clear is how far would they go to achieve it.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

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The worst part about this political grandstanding is that if war was to breakout between Australia and Chine, we would be completely reliant on the USA to defend us. So when Peter Dutton talks up war, he's actually putting at risk the lives of American troops not just Australian. And it's all purely to support his government's re-election in 2022.
Dozy
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

Zakar wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:57 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:50 pm It appears that our Defence Minister Peter Dutton is determined to talk Australia into a war with China. We are "Talking loudly and carrying a very small stick". The cynic in me cannot shake the suspicion that this has nothing to with keeping Australia safe from China and everything to do with the Federal Governments political aspirations, and Peter Dutton's personal leadership aspirations.
Dutton vows to call out Beijing and declares everyday Australians are with the government
Anthony Galloway
By Anthony Galloway
May 3, 2021 — 5.00am

Defence Minister Peter Dutton has vowed to speak out more openly about China’s acts of aggression, declaring everyday Australians are with the government and understand the threats posed by Beijing.

Mr Dutton warned Australia was “already under attack” in the cyber world and suggested the nation’s cyber spy agency would need to be beefed up in the coming years to fight against the escalating wave of hack attacks.

In an exclusive interview with The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, Mr Dutton said the Australian Defence Force was prepared for action, saying the country needed to be in a position to defend its waters in the north and west as a clear priority.

The comments confirm a recent hardening of the Morrison government’s rhetoric, including towards China, and suggest it wants to have a more public discussion with Australians as it looks to spend more on defence capabilities amid a regional arms race fuelled by China’s growing assertiveness throughout the Indo-Pacific.

The Defence Minister last week angered the Chinese government by saying a conflict over Taiwan could not be discounted, while Home Affairs secretary Michael Pezzullo declared the “drums of war” were beating without naming any potential adversaries.

The comments sparked China’s ambassador to Australia, Cheng Jingye, to issue a veiled threat that Chinese students and tourists will be reluctant to return to Australia because of a hostile environment.

But Mr Dutton was unapologetic about the remarks, saying China had been “very clear about their strategy, their approach and their desires and so pretending it’s not being said or turning a blind eye to it is not in our national interest”.

“The views that matter to me are Australians who are living across cities, towns and suburbs across the country. And they know that we are saying is factually based,” he said.

“I think part of the public is frankly ahead of where the public debate is because there’s just so much information available online. People see the reported comments of the ambassador and the vice ambassador here, as well as the spokesman out of Beijing.”

Advertisement

He said he wanted to have a “more frank discussion with the public” about China’s intentions.

However, former Labor prime minister Kevin Rudd said “the public language of Morrison, Dutton and Pezzullo on China, Taiwan and the possibility of war in the last week serves zero national security purpose”.

“Australia already has a highly problematic relationship with China,” Mr Rudd said.

“Much of this is because of changes in Chinese policy and posture under a much more assertive Xi Jinping. But it is also because Morrison et al. are addicted to the drug of ‘standing up to China’ every day of the week because of its perceived domestic political utility. ”

Mr Dutton said he would not rule out naming the countries behind cyber attacks if the government was certain and doing so didn’t reveal any previously secret capabilities of the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD).

“Where it’s in our interests to call out – whether it’s Russia or China or North Korea or somebody else – we will call them out,” he said. “There’s a lot of capacity that Australia has in the cyber space that clearly we wouldn’t talk publicly about, but gives us a very significant edge over many adversaries, even sophisticated adversaries.”

He said the ASD was “quite remarkable and world-leading” but “there’s more that we need to do”.

Australian military planners have been increasingly concerned about the threat of “grey zone” warfare, which refers to aggressions that fall somewhere between what we traditionally view as war and peace. It includes cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, intellectual property theft and propaganda.

A state actor, believed to be China, was last year behind a series of cyber raids on all levels of government, industry and critical infrastructure including hospitals, local councils and state-owned utilities.

Asked what the country needed to do to defend against grey zone warfare, Mr Dutton said Australians needed to understand that “we’re already under attack on the cyber front”.

“Under attack by state actors, under attack from very sophisticated criminal syndicates based in the Middle East, based in Asia and based in Europe,” he said. “So that’s the reality and it’s not seen and there’s no casualties on the battlefield but there are companies and victims every day.”

Australia has begun the process of acquiring long-range missiles to protect overseas forces, allies and the mainland, include fitting out Australia’s naval fleet with advanced guided long-range weapons to defend against maritime threats and potentially buying a range of hypersonic missiles.

Mr Dutton said the Australian government’s first priority was “continued peace in our region”, but warned the country needed to “have influence in the region to that end”.

“Is the Australian Defence Force prepared for an action – whether it’s tomorrow, or in 10 years, or three decades time? Yes, I believe they are,” he said. “The focus has clearly been in Afghanistan for the last 20 years, but Defence has been very focused on our region and preparation in our region for a number of years, and that will continue.”

“There are many approaches to Australia from the north and the west and clearly from the east obviously as well. So we need to make sure we are in a position to defend those waters, we need to make sure that we’re in a position to deal with criminal actors who are sophisticated using major naval assets in our waters so protection for our borders and our waters ot the north and west remains a clear priority.”

Labor’s defence spokesman Brendan O’Connor said Mr Pezzullo’s comments last week “were not particularly helpful”.

“If indeed there is a need to say such things … then they should have been said by a Minister,” he told the ABC’s Insiders program on Sunday.

Sam Roggeveen, director of the Lowy Institute’s international security program, said the threat of conflict has increased and some of the reaction to both Mr Dutton and Mr Pezzullo’s comments has been over-the-top.

“The chances of conflict remain very, very low. But the point is really that the threat of force as a method of coercion has increased,” he said.

We've always been at war with Eastasia.
Because you don't view yourselves as being part of your neighbourhood or being from your region. This actually confirms peoples suspicions that there are racial elements to the Australian/5 eyes word view.
Dozy
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

CrazyIslander wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:02 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:56 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:54 pm I don't think Australia is acting alone. China have already taken punitive meaaures against Australia. IMO Australia are testing the waters for the US and European allies. Making China show it's cards, rather than continuously chipping away at the US in a cold war.
It doesn't say much for the US and UK if they think a nation would just show cards like that. It is worse that Australia is allowing itself to be a useful idiot while destroying its own economy.
Australian economy is fine tbh. But China is an ancient country, an imperialism is in their blood, their history is full of empires and dynasties. Do you think they're going to resist imperial urges when they're at their most powerful? It's clear what they want but what's not clear is how far would they go to achieve it.
Yeah, I do. Ask the People of south-east Asia. History has shown the Chinese dynasties could have expanded and taken the areas in a heartbeat, yet they never did.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Muttonbirds »

What is alarming is some residents of hawkish Western Nations gulping hook, line, and sinker the flashy new bait offered by their leaders on China.

Thus captured, they repeat outlandish imminent war scenarios as if to gaslight their more considered neighbours.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:02 pm The worst part about this political grandstanding is that if war was to breakout between Australia and Chine, we would be completely reliant on the USA to defend us. So when Peter Dutton talks up war, he's actually putting at risk the lives of American troops not just Australian. And it's all purely to support his government's re-election in 2022.
Don't see the point. China should just ignore Australia and pretend it is not there. Don't deal with it, just blank it. Australia or the US are hardly going to come knocking on Chinas door for a fight. It will fizzle out.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

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Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:02 pm The worst part about this political grandstanding is that if war was to breakout between Australia and Chine, we would be completely reliant on the USA to defend us. So when Peter Dutton talks up war, he's actually putting at risk the lives of American troops not just Australian. And it's all purely to support his government's re-election in 2022.
Don't see the point. China should just ignore Australia and pretend it is not there. Don't deal with it, just blank it. Australia or the US are hardly going to come knocking on Chinas door for a fight. It will fizzle out.
Yes I agree with you that this won't result in anything. China and the USA are not going to be talked into a costly and bloody war by the Australian Federal govt. But it is very worrying as an Australian citizen that our govt is prepared to risk a war for base political gain.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm What is alarming is some residents of hawkish Western Nations gulping hook, line, and sinker the flashy new bait offered by their leaders on China.

Thus captured, they repeat outlandish imminent war scenarios as if to gaslight their more considered neighbours.
Most have been swallowing it for years. They are throwing the kitchen sink at China at the moment to sink it but everything is failing.
They tried everything, smears, destabilisation efforts, tech blockades, none working, they are losing their mind over this as it has worked everywhere else before now and they thought this was a foolproof system to hold hegemony.

Even Covid didn't sink China as so many hoped. US officials are on record in saying that Chinas development must be stopped at all costs, even if it means impoverishing 1.4 billion people, actually I think there is a preference in that being the best result.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Zakar »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:03 pm
Zakar wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:57 pm
We've always been at war with Eastasia.
Because you don't view yourselves as being part of your neighbourhood or being from your region. This actually confirms peoples suspicions that there are racial elements to the Australian/5 eyes word view.
:lol:

f**king woosh.
Last edited by Zakar on Sun May 02, 2021 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dozy
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:09 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:02 pm The worst part about this political grandstanding is that if war was to breakout between Australia and Chine, we would be completely reliant on the USA to defend us. So when Peter Dutton talks up war, he's actually putting at risk the lives of American troops not just Australian. And it's all purely to support his government's re-election in 2022.
Don't see the point. China should just ignore Australia and pretend it is not there. Don't deal with it, just blank it. Australia or the US are hardly going to come knocking on Chinas door for a fight. It will fizzle out.
Yes I agree with you that this won't result in anything. China and the USA are not going to be talked into a costly and bloody war by the Australian Federal govt. But it is very worrying as an Australian citizen that our govt is prepared to risk a war for base political gain.
The only loser will be Australia, they are being used by senior partners to flex. There is no risk for the Us economy in these actions, just the Aussie one. They must be laughing back in Washington and thinking what absolute mugs,
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Muttonbirds »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:11 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm What is alarming is some residents of hawkish Western Nations gulping hook, line, and sinker the flashy new bait offered by their leaders on China.

Thus captured, they repeat outlandish imminent war scenarios as if to gaslight their more considered neighbours.
Most have been swallowing it for years. They are throwing the kitchen sink at China at the moment to sink it but everything is failing.
They tried everything, smears, destabilisation efforts, tech blockades, none working, they are losing their mind over this as it has worked everywhere else before now and they thought this was a foolproof system to hold hegemony.

Even Covid didn't sink China as so many hoped. US officials are on record in saying that Chinas development must be stopped at all costs, even if it means impoverishing 1.4 billion people, actually I think there is a preference in that being the best result.
At the same time, as a growing power China must also meet the rest of the world in terms of human rights, workers rights, and anti corruption. They can't expect to be happily accepted until they show movement on these issues. You can't force them to do it by sabre-rattling though, it has to be done with diplomacy.

What's let them get away with it for so long is the West's insatiable greed and addiction to profit.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Ali's Choice »

It would great if this forum had the functionality where a thread's author could block one poster from posting on a given thread.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:16 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:11 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm What is alarming is some residents of hawkish Western Nations gulping hook, line, and sinker the flashy new bait offered by their leaders on China.

Thus captured, they repeat outlandish imminent war scenarios as if to gaslight their more considered neighbours.
Most have been swallowing it for years. They are throwing the kitchen sink at China at the moment to sink it but everything is failing.
They tried everything, smears, destabilisation efforts, tech blockades, none working, they are losing their mind over this as it has worked everywhere else before now and they thought this was a foolproof system to hold hegemony.

Even Covid didn't sink China as so many hoped. US officials are on record in saying that Chinas development must be stopped at all costs, even if it means impoverishing 1.4 billion people, actually I think there is a preference in that being the best result.
At the same time, as a growing power China must also meet the rest of the world in terms of human rights, workers rights, and anti corruption. They can't expect to be happily accepted until they show movement on these issues. You can't force them to do it by sabre-rattling though, it has to be done with diplomacy.

What's let them get away with it for so long is the West's insatiable greed and addiction to profit.
China is singled out by the media as being the only country in the world that has these issues. Conveniently ignoring all the others because they are easily bullied on the world stage yet never stopped.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:17 pm It would great if this forum had the functionality where a thread's author could block one poster from posting on a given thread.
Think threads work better with a bit of balance and isn't just an onslaught on one perspective.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Ali's Choice »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:23 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:17 pm It would great if this forum had the functionality where a thread's author could block one poster from posting on a given thread.
Think threads work better with a bit of balance and isn't just an onslaught on one perspective.
All good, just please don't relentlessly spam the thread.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by CrazyIslander »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:22 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:16 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:11 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm What is alarming is some residents of hawkish Western Nations gulping hook, line, and sinker the flashy new bait offered by their leaders on China.

Thus captured, they repeat outlandish imminent war scenarios as if to gaslight their more considered neighbours.
Most have been swallowing it for years. They are throwing the kitchen sink at China at the moment to sink it but everything is failing.
They tried everything, smears, destabilisation efforts, tech blockades, none working, they are losing their mind over this as it has worked everywhere else before now and they thought this was a foolproof system to hold hegemony.

Even Covid didn't sink China as so many hoped. US officials are on record in saying that Chinas development must be stopped at all costs, even if it means impoverishing 1.4 billion people, actually I think there is a preference in that being the best result.
At the same time, as a growing power China must also meet the rest of the world in terms of human rights, workers rights, and anti corruption. They can't expect to be happily accepted until they show movement on these issues. You can't force them to do it by sabre-rattling though, it has to be done with diplomacy.

What's let them get away with it for so long is the West's insatiable greed and addiction to profit.
China is singled out by the media as being the only country in the world that has these issues. Conveniently ignoring all the others because they are easily bullied on the world stage yet never stopped.
It's the most influential country with these issues.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

CrazyIslander wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:38 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:22 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:16 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:11 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm What is alarming is some residents of hawkish Western Nations gulping hook, line, and sinker the flashy new bait offered by their leaders on China.

Thus captured, they repeat outlandish imminent war scenarios as if to gaslight their more considered neighbours.
Most have been swallowing it for years. They are throwing the kitchen sink at China at the moment to sink it but everything is failing.
They tried everything, smears, destabilisation efforts, tech blockades, none working, they are losing their mind over this as it has worked everywhere else before now and they thought this was a foolproof system to hold hegemony.

Even Covid didn't sink China as so many hoped. US officials are on record in saying that Chinas development must be stopped at all costs, even if it means impoverishing 1.4 billion people, actually I think there is a preference in that being the best result.
At the same time, as a growing power China must also meet the rest of the world in terms of human rights, workers rights, and anti corruption. They can't expect to be happily accepted until they show movement on these issues. You can't force them to do it by sabre-rattling though, it has to be done with diplomacy.

What's let them get away with it for so long is the West's insatiable greed and addiction to profit.
China is singled out by the media as being the only country in the world that has these issues. Conveniently ignoring all the others because they are easily bullied on the world stage yet never stopped.
It's the most influential country with these issues.
You could say the same about interference and war with the US
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by CrazyIslander »

The difference with the US influence was asked for during the world wars. The world has been going through the process of untangling it. But it's a back and forth process.

What has China done to deserve trust that it would treated weaker nations fairly? All we can measure is how they treat people within China - oppression of minorities and totalitarian rule. The world have no appetite for that.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Dozy »

CrazyIslander wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:25 am The difference with the US influence was asked for during the world wars. The world has been going through the process of untangling it. But it's a back and forth process.

What has China done to deserve trust that it would treated weaker nations fairly? All we can measure is how they treat people within China - oppression of minorities and totalitarian rule. The world have no appetite for that.
Fair enough, what have they done to people overseas, in their interactions. What clandestine operations have they funded to destabilise, oppress, bomb,interfere, intimidate. What wars have they kicked off?

The US has 3 million people locked up, they start countless wars, the place is ravaged with crime, racism, political strife, they have not improved the living standards of the majority of their people in decades. They make good movies and speeches telling everyone their mean well, but at what point do we look back at the decades of this and say, you've been banging the same drum since world war 2, its time to back it up or step aside.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Clogs »

Could there be a dumber thread in the history of PR than this one?


Australia desperate for a war with China?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by CrazyIslander »

Dozy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:42 am
CrazyIslander wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:25 am The difference with the US influence was asked for during the world wars. The world has been going through the process of untangling it. But it's a back and forth process.

What has China done to deserve trust that it would treated weaker nations fairly? All we can measure is how they treat people within China - oppression of minorities and totalitarian rule. The world have no appetite for that.
Fair enough, what have they done to people overseas, in their interactions. What clandestine operations have they funded to destabilise, oppress, bomb,interfere, intimidate. What wars have they kicked off?

The US has 3 million people locked up, they start countless wars, the place is ravaged with crime, racism, political strife, they have not improved the living standards of the majority of their people in decades. They make good movies and speeches telling everyone their mean well, but at what point do we look back at the decades of this and say, you've been banging the same drum since world war 2, its time to back it up or step aside.
For the most part, the world has been as stable and peaceful as it's ever been, despite the fact nations are strongest they've ever been military wise. Sovereignty for the most part has been respect. All since the US became the world policeman. The US has many faults but it's still possible to change government and the law still rules above everyone. China, is ruled differently. It's one party totalitarian rule.

People see China's rise as the return of the imperial era where strong countries divide up the world.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by shanky »

Clogs wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:47 am Could there be a dumber thread in the history of PR than this one?


Australia desperate for a war with China?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
If the situation develops any further, we might just have to dust off The Brisbane Line strategy.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by wamberal »

My theory is that Dutton is going to challenge Scummo. The idea that the ruling party seriously entertains the possibility of war with the PRC is nutty. Australian citizens of Chinese descent would be aghast at the prospect, they might dislike the ruling party in the PRC, but they would be totally against any sort of conflict. That's not to mention the bulk of the rest of the population.

The only voters who might seriously believe that Mr Potatohead is on the right track are after dark Sky News watchers. Important demographic for the tories.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by shanky »

No way Australians will vote for Dutton on that basis

We don’t like warmongers

Having said that, most* of us don’t like smoking CCP pole, either
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Farva »

Cant we just do it the old fashioned way?

They send their best person, we send out best person, and then they duke it out with everyone watching. Winner takes all.

Question then is who is our best fighter?

I reckon we can get some meth head and tell him China was looking at him funny. He can then glass them and give them a kick when they hit the ground, a quick spit on them, and then we are good.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by CrazyIslander »

.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by CrazyIslander »

Farva wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:22 am

Question then is who is our best fighter?

I reckon we can get some meth head
What? You suggesting we send Paul Gallen?
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by wamberal »

shanky wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:00 am No way Australians will vote for Dutton on that basis

We don’t like warmongers

Having said that, most* of us don’t like smoking CCP pole, either
The first step is for Dutton to destabilise Scummo.


Another possibility is that he is under pressure to retain his own electorate.


Otherwise he is just a thickhead. Take your pick.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Zakar »

I think most Australians would be ok with a war against NZ, as I expect it would give the Anglo-Zanzibar war a run for its money.
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by Farva »

Zakar wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:31 am I think most Australians would be ok with a war against NZ, as I expect it would give the Anglo-Zanzibar war a run for its money.
If Australia conquered NZ, would NZ notice?
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Re: Australia desperate for a war with China

Post by shanky »

Zakar wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:31 am I think most Australians would be ok with a war against NZ, as I expect it would give the Anglo-Zanzibar war a run for its money.
I'm not sure about that.

Too many fifth-columnists to worry about. I don't want to get capped picking up my lunchtime McFlurry
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