NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

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Muttonbirds
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Muttonbirds »

bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:16 am If trans women are women why would the sporting body have to make any adjustments?

Mutton your position is now untenable.
Glaringly, because of danger to other players. Some sports don't have to consider this, others do.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Muttonbirds wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:21 am
bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:16 am If trans women are women why would the sporting body have to make any adjustments?

Mutton your position is now untenable.
Glaringly, because of danger to other players. Some sports don't have to consider this, others do.


If trans women are women why are they in “danger” ? Why is anyone in danger ?
Last edited by bimboman on Sat May 08, 2021 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Yep. It seems that there are LOTs of exclusions in sport. We exclude people that test positive for PEDs - some people have medical conditions that require steroids, and they aren't always allowed to play because of this stuff in their system. They're excluded through no fault of their own. What about men who naturally don't produce the same levels of testosterone as others - this is a HUGE disadvantage and limits their ability to play at the top level. Should they be allowed to take a supplement to bring their testosterone up to a similar level to others? If not, why not? Why are they effectively excluded from professional sport?

What about mature-aged students that return to highschool in the 20s - they are excluded from competitive school sports. Why? They are students and they love sport - why can't a 25 year old man play for the national schoolboys team? They are excluded purely because of their age and this discrimination, right?

Why does sport exclude so many people?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:28 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:21 am
bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:16 am If trans women are women why would the sporting body have to make any adjustments?

Mutton your position is now untenable.
Glaringly, because of danger to other players. Some sports don't have to consider this, others do.


If trans women are women why are they in “danger” ? Why is anyone in danger ?
:o
I can hear him squirm from here.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

I wanted to play in the NBA however I’m 177cm, please rearrange the sporting rules to help.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Muttonbirds »

bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:28 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:21 am
bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:16 am If trans women are women why would the sporting body have to make any adjustments?

Mutton your position is now untenable.
Glaringly, because of danger to other players. Some sports don't have to consider this, others do.


If trans women are women why are they in “danger” ?
In contact situations in open grade rugby there is a danger. WR hasn't been able mitigate the danger so they are pausing.

I think weightlifting has weight grades so that like weights compete against each other.

In open rugby there are several different weights competing against each other.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Lots of sports don't provide advantage to those that are stronger or more powerful: archery, shooting, lawnbowls... dozens or hundreds of sports.

Why are men better at all or most of them? They have separate divisions at the Olympics because it would be unfair otherwise, but why? Is someone out there saying that men aren't better at almost every sport?

It's not all about testosterone - there is an advantage being born and/or raised as a male, and this advantage will remain after the transition. I don't know big the advantage is, but it exists. FACT.
Finally women are getting a crack at sport and they're going to be increasingly faced with competition where they have an inherent disadvantage. Hormone treatments will not fix this.
This isn't fair in my opinion, and one group's rights shouldn't be trampled by the granting of rights to another group. You don't have to agree with me, but everyone must acknowledge that there is a trade-off involved and someone is losing out.
Last edited by towny on Sat May 08, 2021 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Muttonbirds wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:36 am
bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:28 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:21 am
bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:16 am If trans women are women why would the sporting body have to make any adjustments?

Mutton your position is now untenable.
Glaringly, because of danger to other players. Some sports don't have to consider this, others do.


If trans women are women why are they in “danger” ?
In contact situations in open grade rugby there is a danger. WR hasn't been able mitigate the danger so they are pausing.

I think weightlifting has weight grades so that like weights compete against each other.

In open rugby there are several different weights competing against each other.
I’ll ask again, if trans women are women what danger needs mitigating?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by jambanja »

towny wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:39 am Lots of sports don't provide advantage to those that are stronger or more powerful: archery, shooting, lawnbowls... dozens or hundreds of sports.

Why are men better at all or most of them? They have separate divisions at the Olympics because it would be unfair otherwise, but why? Is someone out there saying that men aren't better at almost every sport?

It's not all about testosterone - there is an advantage being born and/or raised as a male, and this advantage will remain after the transition. I don't know big the advantage is, but it exists. FACT.
Finally women are getting a crack at sport and they're going to be increasingly faced with competition where they have an inherent disadvantage. Hormone treatments will not fix this.
This isn't fair in my opinion, and one group's rights shouldn't be trampled by the granting of rights to another group. You don't have to agree with me, but everyone must acknowledge that there is a trade-off involved and someone is losing out.
It’s truely bizarre that the rights of the huge huge minority must outweigh the rights of the overwhelming majority, and this is even before you consider the massive disparity between the two
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Sandstorm »

bimboman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:30 am I wanted to play in the NBA however I’m 177cm, please rearrange the sporting rules to help.
Pro Women’s BBall features shorter players on average. You can compete there.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:48 am It's pointless having this debate with someone who views transgender women as "fake women". Sorry, but that kind of bigotry will never see the need for transgender rights.
Well yes it's pointless telling me a geezer is a bird because he says so. I fully accept transgender people but there are biological males and females. Biological males competing as females are fake
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Brumbie_Steve »

jambanja wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:00 am
towny wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:39 am Lots of sports don't provide advantage to those that are stronger or more powerful: archery, shooting, lawnbowls... dozens or hundreds of sports.

Why are men better at all or most of them? They have separate divisions at the Olympics because it would be unfair otherwise, but why? Is someone out there saying that men aren't better at almost every sport?

It's not all about testosterone - there is an advantage being born and/or raised as a male, and this advantage will remain after the transition. I don't know big the advantage is, but it exists. FACT.
Finally women are getting a crack at sport and they're going to be increasingly faced with competition where they have an inherent disadvantage. Hormone treatments will not fix this.
This isn't fair in my opinion, and one group's rights shouldn't be trampled by the granting of rights to another group. You don't have to agree with me, but everyone must acknowledge that there is a trade-off involved and someone is losing out.
It’s truely bizarre that the rights of the huge huge minority must outweigh the rights of the overwhelming majority, and this is even before you consider the massive disparity between the two
Have you been asleep for the last 5 years?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

jambanja wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:00 am
towny wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:39 am Lots of sports don't provide advantage to those that are stronger or more powerful: archery, shooting, lawnbowls... dozens or hundreds of sports.

Why are men better at all or most of them? They have separate divisions at the Olympics because it would be unfair otherwise, but why? Is someone out there saying that men aren't better at almost every sport?

It's not all about testosterone - there is an advantage being born and/or raised as a male, and this advantage will remain after the transition. I don't know big the advantage is, but it exists. FACT.
Finally women are getting a crack at sport and they're going to be increasingly faced with competition where they have an inherent disadvantage. Hormone treatments will not fix this.
This isn't fair in my opinion, and one group's rights shouldn't be trampled by the granting of rights to another group. You don't have to agree with me, but everyone must acknowledge that there is a trade-off involved and someone is losing out.
It’s truely bizarre that the rights of the huge huge minority must outweigh the rights of the overwhelming majority, and this is even before you consider the massive disparity between the two
And it’s generally men making these decisions and arguing the most passionately in support of ‘inclusion’ in women’s sport, which doesn’t really concern them.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

Some pretty unsavoury and discriminatory comments are flowing on this thread now. This thread was always going to be an invitation for some posters to kick Transgender people.

Two quick questions,

1. So both Trans Men and Trans women have to play as men? Or are you happy for fully transitioned men to play as women because they were born with female genitals?

2. If we force Transgender Women to play Rugby against men, are we also dead-naming them on the team list and forcing them to shower and get changed with men? Or do we allow them to use female change facilities? If we're going to humiliate them we may as well go the whole hog, yeah?

World Rugby already has rules prohibiting Trans people from playing at the elite levels of the game. You cannot represent your country or play professionally if you are Trans. So what more do the anti-trans posters want? For Rugby to be closed off from Transgender people at every level of the game? It's simply untenable to tell trans women that they are women in every other aspect of their life, except Rugby.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Sandstorm »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:52 pm Some pretty unsavoury and discriminatory comments are flowing on this thread now. This thread was always going to be an invitation for some posters to kick Transgender people.

Two quick questions,

1. So both Trans Men and Trans women have to play as men? Or are you happy for fully transitioned men to play as women because they were born with female genitals?

2. If we force Transgender Women to play Rugby against men, are we also dead-naming them on the team list and forcing them to shower and get changed with men? Or do we allow them to use female change facilities? If we're going to humiliate them we may as well go the whole hog, yeah?

World Rugby already has rules prohibiting Trans people from playing at the elite levels of the game. You cannot represent your country or play professionally if you are Trans. So what more do the anti-trans posters want? For Rugby to be closed off from Transgender people at every level of the game? It's simply untenable to tell trans women that they are women in every other aspect of their life, except Rugby.
No one cares what they look like in the shower. It’s about them being on the wrong pitch.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

Sandstorm wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:56 pm No one cares what they look like in the shower. It’s about them being on the wrong pitch.
Wrong pitch?

So just to clarify, you're happy for Transgender men to play against females because they were born with female genitals?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

As an educator, I just wanted to make the point that here in QLD transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness. Trans people suffer immense discrimination. I'm just glad that some of the utter cvnts on this thread, who are calling them geezers etc, don't have anything to do with supporting transgender people in real life. Because some of your attitudes suck.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Sandstorm »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:03 pm As an educator, I just wanted to make the point that here in QLD transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness. Trans people suffer immense discrimination. I'm just glad that some of the utter cvnts on this thread, who are calling them geezers etc, don't have anything to do with supporting transgender people in real life. Because some of your attitudes suck.
I support transgender people. I don’t support them playing in a league that their gender gives them unfair advantage. If that causes them to be depressed then I’m very sorry.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

AC

You can help me out here because it's something I'm dealing with right now. An alien arrives on earth and asks what defines a man and women. Can you give me a definition that doesn't refer to appearance, clothes or societal roles?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

Sandstorm wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:08 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:03 pm As an educator, I just wanted to make the point that here in QLD transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness. Trans people suffer immense discrimination. I'm just glad that some of the utter cvnts on this thread, who are calling them geezers etc, don't have anything to do with supporting transgender people in real life. Because some of your attitudes suck.
I support transgender people. I don’t support them playing in a league that their gender gives them unfair advantage. If that causes them to be depressed then I’m very sorry.
I don't think it's possible to genuinely support transgender people, and to support excluding them from a lawful recreational activity or even worse, make them participate as a different gender.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness
Why is this?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:19 pm
transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness
Why is this?
Lots of reasons. The next most 'at risk' groups are Aboriginal students and students who identify as homosexual. Perhaps you've got a theory about them as well?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:22 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:19 pm
transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness
Why is this?
Lots of reasons.
That's your answer? I was kinda expecting you to be specific.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:23 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:22 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:19 pm
transgender students are the most at risk cohort of suicide, self harm, depression and mental illness
Why is this?
Lots of reasons.
That's your answer? I was kinda expecting you to be specific.
If mental health was easy to solve then we wouldn't be in the midst of a mental health crisis in Australian schools.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

I only asked for what reason. If you don't know why then that's fine.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:26 pm I only asked for what reason. If you don't know why then that's fine.
You asked me why Transgender kids suffer disproportionately high mental health issues. And I answered as best as I can; There are lots of reasons. I'm not sure where you're going with this line of questioning?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

So there are lots of reasons but you don't know any. So how do you know there are lots of reasons? Define lots.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:31 pm So there are lots of reasons but you don't know any. So how do you know there are lots of reasons? Define lots.
:?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

Just as I thought - you have no idea but pretend you do.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:34 pm Just as I thought - you have no idea but pretend you do.
Wtf is wrong with you? Seriously, are you drunk? It's 11.35pm in the UK, perhaps it's time to log off?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

AC, any update on that definition? It's a genuine question. If you can give me a genuine answer, it would help a lot.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:36 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:34 pm Just as I thought - you have no idea but pretend you do.
Wtf is wrong with you? Seriously, are you drunk? It's 11.35pm in the UK, perhaps it's time to log off?
Give it your best shot, you know, as an EDUCATOR.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:38 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:36 pm
fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:34 pm Just as I thought - you have no idea but pretend you do.
Wtf is wrong with you? Seriously, are you drunk? It's 11.35pm in the UK, perhaps it's time to log off?
Give it your best shot, you know, as an EDUCATOR.
I'm not playing your stupid internet games fatcat. If you're genuinely interested in why transgender kids suffer disproportionately from mental health issues then I suggest you google 'Trans kids mental health'. You'll find lots of information online.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

I can give you the answer which covers 95% of them. Social media.

AC, it's OK if you can't help me out. Just say so, I understand.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

You don't have a clue, do you, Ali? Why don't you do the googling and come back to me. You clearly feel far more strongly about this issue than I do. I find it a bit surprising that you feel so strongly about something of which you have so little knowledge.

Now why don't you answer CM11's question before you start your google hunt.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:45 pm You don't have a clue, do you, Ali?
:? Go to bed fatcat, you're embarrassing yourself.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

It's you I'm embarrassing, Ali. At least you should be embarrassed, but you appear to have no shame so perhaps you aren't.

You can't even answer some basic questions about the assertions you made. It's almost as if you're just repeating some slogans that your school board has fired at you as they know that raising any questions is well above your pay grade. Oh well, best you just stick to aiming insults and slurs at people who don't share your views, lest you actually have to do some thinking of your own.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

fatcat wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:53 pm It's you I'm embarrassing, Ali. At least you should be embarrassed, but you appear to have no shame so perhaps you aren't.

You can't even answer some basic questions about the assertions you made. It's almost as if you're just repeating some slogans that your school board has fired at you as they know that raising any questions is well above your pay grade. Oh well, best you just stick to aiming insults and slurs at people who don't share your views, lest you actually have to do some thinking of your own.
Fatcat you're asking me to sum up in a few sentences why an entire cohort of students has mental health issues. That's simply impossible to do given the complex nature of mental health.

I could give you some generic reasons why different groups of students suffer mental health issues, but;

A) I don't think you're actually interested in transgender mental health or wanting to have a good-faith chat about trans kids, and

B) I don't like being told what to do by a drunk internet troll.

It's midnight in the UK. Go to bed.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by fatcat »

Cop out city. Yet again you've been shown to be all mouth and no substance. Can't answer basic questions - pathetic!

You are such a fraud.

PS. I'll be up for another couple of hours at least, so happy to engage for that amount of time.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Tehui »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:52 pm World Rugby already has rules prohibiting Trans people from playing at the elite levels of the game. You cannot represent your country or play professionally if you are Trans. So what more do the anti-trans posters want? For Rugby to be closed off from Transgender people at every level of the game? It's simply untenable to tell trans women that they are women in every other aspect of their life, except Rugby.
I'm not anti-Trans, but maybe we should be asking female rugby players how they feel playing against trans-women who have biological advantages due to being born a man?
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