NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Muttonbirds »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:28 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:23 am :yawn: You can't even grasp the concept of non-binary people. You're an active contributor to the abuse and marginalisation they face, as are all social conservatives.

A pretend white knight.

Trying hard to deflect away from your casual support of bigotry when you've been caught out so you lie and make false premises and false claims some more. This conversation is clearly over. You're done you uncaring bigot.
Bigotry is people desperately clinging onto the idea if you swap genders you forego your right to compete in sport with everyone else. That's you.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am
Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls competing in girls' sporting events

Jenner, 71, told TMZ: "This is a question of fairness. That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair, and we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."

During the impromptu interview, Jenner - who won gold at the 1976 Olympics in Montreal - was subsequently asked whether a ban would be "de-legitimising" to a trans person's identity.

But rather than answering the question directly, she simply replied: "Have a good day."
Not a good start to her mayoral race.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainmen ... MOWYNIG7A/
Yeah! What the f*ck would she know about sport, let alone trans rights?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Muttonbirds »

towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:06 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am
Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls competing in girls' sporting events

Jenner, 71, told TMZ: "This is a question of fairness. That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair, and we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."

During the impromptu interview, Jenner - who won gold at the 1976 Olympics in Montreal - was subsequently asked whether a ban would be "de-legitimising" to a trans person's identity.

But rather than answering the question directly, she simply replied: "Have a good day."
Not a good start to her mayoral race.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainmen ... MOWYNIG7A/
Yeah! What the f*ck would she know about sport, let alone trans rights?
Nothing, clearly. She couldn't answer the question. I suspect she was just saying what she thought Republican voters wanted to hear. When asked about her statement she couldn't express her position.
Last edited by Muttonbirds on Mon May 10, 2021 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

As long as this debate is minimised by saying there is no difference between trans people and those living as the sex they're born with this debate will continue.

We make allowances in all walks of life and have different rules for different groups while managing to argue for their overall inclusion in society. IMO the current trend in relation to certain areas of trans rights is unhealthy and is leading to unintended consequences that primarily affect girls and women. The irony being that females have been inclusive of trans people over the years way more than males, the latter being the primary cause of their discrimination and primary aggressors in terms of violence.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am As long as this debate is minimised by saying there is no difference between trans people and those living as the sex they're born with this debate will continue.

We make allowances in all walks of life and have different rules for different groups while managing to argue for their overall inclusion in society. IMO the current trend in relation to certain areas of trans rights is unhealthy and is leading to unintended consequences that primarily affect girls and women. The irony being that females have been inclusive of trans people over the years way more than males, the latter being the primary cause of their discrimination and primary aggressors in terms of violence.
Transgender people are some of the most maligned and discriminated against people in society. I'm not sure how reducing the discrimination they face impacts on women in any way? Ultimately this debate boils down to whether or not you think transgender women have a legal right to be treated as a woman. If you disagree that that basic principle then of course you'll disagree with them engaging in lawful recreation activities like sports.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

You were going to get back to me with that definition of what a woman is AC? Or a man if that's easier for you.

What does 'treated like a woman' mean to you exactly?

I think people should be allowed live their lives the way they want to, dress the way they want to and have sex any way they want to. It's society that is forcing non confirming people into putting themselves into a gender box. Great example of that recently when Eddie Izzard asked could he be called a he on set as he was in 'boy mode' playing a male character and was told nope, you've said you're a woman and that's that.

No amount of surgery or medication can make a man a biological woman and vice versa. And the sooner those differences are accepted and embraced we can figure out how to properly include everyone without incitement to violence.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:44 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:33 am

Why was it a shit point?
Because some posters only post here to attack others are score points, usually by trying to rehash some board meme about what a poster is supposed to be, rather than engaging in the actual points being made in a fair way.
Because she was talking shite. You never came into it at all and I've never replied to anything she has posted in the past as far as I know so piss off fool
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:08 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:06 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am
Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls competing in girls' sporting events

Jenner, 71, told TMZ: "This is a question of fairness. That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair, and we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."

During the impromptu interview, Jenner - who won gold at the 1976 Olympics in Montreal - was subsequently asked whether a ban would be "de-legitimising" to a trans person's identity.

But rather than answering the question directly, she simply replied: "Have a good day."
Not a good start to her mayoral race.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainmen ... MOWYNIG7A/
Yeah! What the f*ck would she know about sport, let alone trans rights?
Nothing, clearly. She couldn't answer the question. I suspect she was just saying what she thought Republican voters wanted to hear. When asked about her statement she couldn't express her position.
You're right. Although she was an Olympic gold medalist AND a trans woman, she would know nothing about this topic. Thanks for your input.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by danny_fitz »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:16 am
CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am As long as this debate is minimised by saying there is no difference between trans people and those living as the sex they're born with this debate will continue.

We make allowances in all walks of life and have different rules for different groups while managing to argue for their overall inclusion in society. IMO the current trend in relation to certain areas of trans rights is unhealthy and is leading to unintended consequences that primarily affect girls and women. The irony being that females have been inclusive of trans people over the years way more than males, the latter being the primary cause of their discrimination and primary aggressors in terms of violence.
Transgender people are some of the most maligned and discriminated against people in society. I'm not sure how reducing the discrimination they face impacts on women in any way? Ultimately this debate boils down to whether or not you think transgender women have a legal right to be treated as a woman. If you disagree that that basic principle then of course you'll disagree with them engaging in lawful recreation activities like sports.
On this point what is your take on the current debate about maintaining 'safe spaces' for non transgender women i.e. changing rooms. What would you say to any women in sports clubs who object or feel uncomfortable that they are being asked to use open changing rooms with a pre op transgender woman?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:16 am
CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am As long as this debate is minimised by saying there is no difference between trans people and those living as the sex they're born with this debate will continue.

We make allowances in all walks of life and have different rules for different groups while managing to argue for their overall inclusion in society. IMO the current trend in relation to certain areas of trans rights is unhealthy and is leading to unintended consequences that primarily affect girls and women. The irony being that females have been inclusive of trans people over the years way more than males, the latter being the primary cause of their discrimination and primary aggressors in terms of violence.
Transgender people are some of the most maligned and discriminated against people in society. I'm not sure how reducing the discrimination they face impacts on women in any way? Ultimately this debate boils down to whether or not you think transgender women have a legal right to be treated as a woman. If you disagree that that basic principle then of course you'll disagree with them engaging in lawful recreation activities like sports.
But why don't you ask women? Why is it that middle aged men think they have the right to say what's what in issues that really don't affect them. Unless you are planning on transitioning and want to dominate sport... Your position on this is about as relevant as a bloke's when it comes to abortion.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Tehui »

Reading some of the nonsense on this thread could drive somebody mad. One wouldn't know whether they're Arthur or Martha.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

danny_fitz wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:31 am On this point what is your take on the current debate about maintaining 'safe spaces' for non transgender women i.e. changing rooms. What would you say to any women in sports clubs who object or feel uncomfortable that they are being asked to use open changing rooms with a pre op transgender woman?
Is it any different to sharing a changeroom with a lesbian teammate?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by booji boy »

towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:29 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:08 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:06 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am
Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls competing in girls' sporting events

Jenner, 71, told TMZ: "This is a question of fairness. That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair, and we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."

During the impromptu interview, Jenner - who won gold at the 1976 Olympics in Montreal - was subsequently asked whether a ban would be "de-legitimising" to a trans person's identity.

But rather than answering the question directly, she simply replied: "Have a good day."
Not a good start to her mayoral race.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainmen ... MOWYNIG7A/
Yeah! What the f*ck would she know about sport, let alone trans rights?
Nothing, clearly. She couldn't answer the question. I suspect she was just saying what she thought Republican voters wanted to hear. When asked about her statement she couldn't express her position.
You're right. Although she was an Olympic gold medalist AND a trans woman, she would know nothing about this topic. Thanks for your input.
2015 Woman of the Year no less.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:34 am
danny_fitz wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:31 am On this point what is your take on the current debate about maintaining 'safe spaces' for non transgender women i.e. changing rooms. What would you say to any women in sports clubs who object or feel uncomfortable that they are being asked to use open changing rooms with a pre op transgender woman?
Is it any different to sharing a changeroom with a lesbian teammate?
Actually the changing room thing, particularly when you add self ID, allows all males into women's spaces, not just trans women.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:16 am
CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am As long as this debate is minimised by saying there is no difference between trans people and those living as the sex they're born with this debate will continue.

We make allowances in all walks of life and have different rules for different groups while managing to argue for their overall inclusion in society. IMO the current trend in relation to certain areas of trans rights is unhealthy and is leading to unintended consequences that primarily affect girls and women. The irony being that females have been inclusive of trans people over the years way more than males, the latter being the primary cause of their discrimination and primary aggressors in terms of violence.
Transgender people are some of the most maligned and discriminated against people in society. I'm not sure how reducing the discrimination they face impacts on women in any way? Ultimately this debate boils down to whether or not you think transgender women have a legal right to be treated as a woman. If you disagree that that basic principle then of course you'll disagree with them engaging in lawful recreation activities like sports.
But why don't you ask women? Why is it that middle aged men think they have the right to say what's what in issues that really don't affect them. Unless you are planning on transitioning and want to dominate sport... Your position on this is about as relevant as a bloke's when it comes to abortion.
As I said the other day this should a ballot of women as in biological women and to avoid the kind of pressure they would face from the likes of Ali it should be secret. Remember the shit storm Navratalova got when she said making her compete against transgender women would be the same as cheating.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:36 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:34 am
danny_fitz wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:31 am On this point what is your take on the current debate about maintaining 'safe spaces' for non transgender women i.e. changing rooms. What would you say to any women in sports clubs who object or feel uncomfortable that they are being asked to use open changing rooms with a pre op transgender woman?
Is it any different to sharing a changeroom with a lesbian teammate?
Actually the changing room thing, particularly when you add self ID, allows all males into women's spaces, not just trans women.
Again you are hysterically creating a crisis that simply doesn't exist in the real world. Simply to justify trolling trans people on a rugby chat site.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:38 am
CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:36 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:34 am
danny_fitz wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:31 am On this point what is your take on the current debate about maintaining 'safe spaces' for non transgender women i.e. changing rooms. What would you say to any women in sports clubs who object or feel uncomfortable that they are being asked to use open changing rooms with a pre op transgender woman?
Is it any different to sharing a changeroom with a lesbian teammate?
Actually the changing room thing, particularly when you add self ID, allows all males into women's spaces, not just trans women.
Again you are hysterically creating a crisis that simply doesn't exist in the real world. Simply to justify trolling trans people on a rugby chat site.
Why don't you ask some women before you make statements on their behalf?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by eldanielfire »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?
Just like why should the basic human rights of biological women be decided on the whim of some? Especially in this situation where the need for women's only sport is decided on biological differences between the sexes, not how individuals genuinely felt about themselves.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:38 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:16 am
CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am As long as this debate is minimised by saying there is no difference between trans people and those living as the sex they're born with this debate will continue.

We make allowances in all walks of life and have different rules for different groups while managing to argue for their overall inclusion in society. IMO the current trend in relation to certain areas of trans rights is unhealthy and is leading to unintended consequences that primarily affect girls and women. The irony being that females have been inclusive of trans people over the years way more than males, the latter being the primary cause of their discrimination and primary aggressors in terms of violence.
Transgender people are some of the most maligned and discriminated against people in society. I'm not sure how reducing the discrimination they face impacts on women in any way? Ultimately this debate boils down to whether or not you think transgender women have a legal right to be treated as a woman. If you disagree that that basic principle then of course you'll disagree with them engaging in lawful recreation activities like sports.
But why don't you ask women? Why is it that middle aged men think they have the right to say what's what in issues that really don't affect them. Unless you are planning on transitioning and want to dominate sport... Your position on this is about as relevant as a bloke's when it comes to abortion.
As I said the other day this should a ballot of women as in biological women and to avoid the kind of pressure they would face from the likes of Ali it should be secret. Remember the shit storm Navratalova got when she said making her compete against transgender women would be the same as cheating.
It would be like cheating. The best woman tennis player in the world wouldn't make the men's top 1000. AC would tell you that testosterone treatment eliminates the disparity completely.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me clarify AC's position:

Women have no right to decide what constitutes a woman when it comes to competitive sport?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by danny_fitz »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:34 am
danny_fitz wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:31 am On this point what is your take on the current debate about maintaining 'safe spaces' for non transgender women i.e. changing rooms. What would you say to any women in sports clubs who object or feel uncomfortable that they are being asked to use open changing rooms with a pre op transgender woman?
Is it any different to sharing a changeroom with a lesbian teammate?
A non trans-women's sexual orientation is not on display, a pre op transwoman's cock and balls are. I would imagine that for most non transwomen that would be a noticeable difference.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:43 am It would be like cheating. The best woman tennis player in the world wouldn't make the men's top 1000. AC would tell you that testosterone treatment eliminates the disparity completely.
Of course transgender people can't play pro-tennis, so once again you're creating a crisis that doesn't actually exist.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by CM11 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:38 am
CM11 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:36 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:34 am
danny_fitz wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:31 am On this point what is your take on the current debate about maintaining 'safe spaces' for non transgender women i.e. changing rooms. What would you say to any women in sports clubs who object or feel uncomfortable that they are being asked to use open changing rooms with a pre op transgender woman?
Is it any different to sharing a changeroom with a lesbian teammate?
Actually the changing room thing, particularly when you add self ID, allows all males into women's spaces, not just trans women.
Again you are hysterically creating a crisis that simply doesn't exist in the real world. Simply to justify trolling trans people on a rugby chat site.
Except it does.

And you don't know me at all so please stop thinking you know my motivations for this discussion. I'm not trolling anyone and your repeated refusal to answer any hard questions directed at you, which from your point of view could serve to educate me, is telling.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by msp. »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?
Why should the rights of cis-women who have fought really hard for equal recognition in sport be encroached because a group with a competitive advantage (individuals who have gone through male puberty) now want the right to play competitive sport with them.

We segregated sport for a reason and unless it can be shown that trans-women are competing with at the same "biological level" (for want of a better phrase), as if they had been born a women, the issue is always going to be problematic.

And the constant name calling of anyone who raises the issue shows how toxic the whole issue is.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

msp. wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:52 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?
Why should the rights of cis-women who have fought really hard for equal recognition in sport be encroached because a group with a competitive advantage (individuals who have gone through male puberty) now want the right to play competitive sport with them.

We segregated sport for a reason and unless it can be shown that trans-women are competing with at the same "biological level" (for want of a better phrase), as if they had been born a women, the issue is always going to be problematic.

And the constant name calling of anyone who raises the issue shows how toxic the whole issue is.
It's a very complex and emotive issue with no easy answers :thumbup:
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Ali's Choice »

towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:45 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me clarify AC's position:

Women have no right to decide what constitutes a woman when it comes to competitive sport?
You're being so alarmist on this thread towny.

The reality here in Australia is that transgender people are already playing Rugby. Rugby Australia has dignified and respectful processes to allow transgender women to play Rugby against women. Sure, they can't play at the elite levels, but they are valued members of the Rugby community at the grassroots level. There is no controversy. Over-sized she-males aren't gleefully destroying slender young women every weekend on suburban Rugby fields. Your alarmism is quite frankly ridiculous.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Rugbygirl »

To clarify, I wasn't trying to close down debate or tell anybody they couldn't have a view on the subject. I do however stand by the word 'pontificate' because that's exactly what a lot of people (not just on here) do. It is incredibly frustrating to hear men talk about inclusion and dismiss any potential problems as just the price to pay for x, y or z, when they won't have to deal directly with the impact. Basically, it's easy to say that 'people' should put up or shut up when you are not 'people'. All I was saying is to bear that in mind. And it cuts both way too, and I try to be mindful of it. It would be easy for me to say that transwomen should just play on mens' teams, or delay physical transition if they want to play sport, but I'm not trans and I don't suffer from gender dysphoria, so it's not something I would ever have to personally deal with myself (though, granted, I could someday have a child who suffered gender dysphoria which would give me more skin in the game, so to speak).

I also didn't have a problem with eldanielfire's response- I thought it was fair enough. I completely agree that there's a lot of bad faith argument from both sides. On the one side, you have people who consistently refer to transwomen as 'he' and have a blanket view that all transwomen wanting to play for women's teams are cheats and/or bullies. On the other side you have people who refuse to even consider that there could be any issues with blanket inclusion and/or simply say 'transwomen are women' end of debate, and if you have a problem with that you're transphobic (and how dare you victimise one of the most vulnerable groups in society etc etc).

In reality, it's an incredibly complex and difficult situation and I don't have the answers. I believe that (currently) the vast majority of transwomen who want to play in women's teams want to do so because they would be intensely uncomfortable playing on men's sides and simply wish to play alongside and against people they best identify with. I don't think the majority of transwomen wish to play women's sports because they view it as a way to chase sporting glory (at whatever level), but that doesn't mean that something like that couldn't become a problem in the future as women's sport becomes high profile and more lucrative, and if rules around trans participation are relaxed. It also doesn't mean that there aren't potential problems surrounding fairness and safety now. There is research suggesting that transwomen retain advantages in strength and speed following physical transition, even if their testosterone levels have been within the legal limits for competition for years, and my personal experience (which I will accept is anecdotal) is consistent with this. I don't really want to see a situation where transwomen have to play on men's teams (or compete against men) if they want to play certain sports, but if transwomen retain physical advantages from male puberty, it feels incredibly unfair for women and girls to miss out on competition, scholarships and playing opportunities. I'd like for there to be a way to look at it on a case by case basis, but I don't know how that would work on a practical level. There is clearly going to be a big difference in the risk of playing rugby against a 6'2'', 15 stone transwoman and playing against a 5'5'' 9 stone transwoman. However, you can't just categorise based on height and weight- men are still on average faster and stronger than women of similar height and weight, and men will still have certain biomechanical advantages however short and light they are (and these advantages don't disappear on transitioning). I don't know what metrics you could use, and how you'd fairly and reliably measure them, particularly given that there would be an incentive to underperform.

Like I said, I don't know the answer. I don't even know if there is one that will be acceptable to everyone. But it would be a good start if both sides could have an open and respectful discussion. If the one side would stop viewing all transwomen in women's sport as cheating men in dresses (and/or would actively speak out against and clearly disassociate themselves with people with that view), and if the other side would stop shouting 'transwomen are women and any further discussion is transphobic lalalalala' we might actually have a chance of getting somewhere.
Last edited by Rugbygirl on Mon May 10, 2021 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:56 am
msp. wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:52 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?
Why should the rights of cis-women who have fought really hard for equal recognition in sport be encroached because a group with a competitive advantage (individuals who have gone through male puberty) now want the right to play competitive sport with them.

We segregated sport for a reason and unless it can be shown that trans-women are competing with at the same "biological level" (for want of a better phrase), as if they had been born a women, the issue is always going to be problematic.

And the constant name calling of anyone who raises the issue shows how toxic the whole issue is.
It's a very complex and emotive issue with no easy answers :thumbup:
You inferred this did have easy answers; however I'm glad you've come around and now accept that it's very complicated. That's perhaps why men should stop pushing for big changes and leave it up to the parties involved to work through the issue.

This bit isn't directed at you fwiw. The woke champs need to stop shouting down those that disagree with them when it comes to this very complicated issue. This is where my anger comes from - I'm not a transphobe, let alone a homophobe, which I'm bizarrely labelled as. There is always a trade-off and those that won't acknowledge it shouldn't be in the discussion, let alone leading it. And because the trade-off has a potential high cost, I think it's only fair that the people that must pay it, should be left alone to work through it, however he we are with Martin Navratalova and Jenner getting attacked for their bigotry.... fml.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?


What about when the “judge” you require is a female?
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Rugbygirl wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:07 am To clarify, I wasn't trying to close down debate or tell anybody they couldn't have a view on the subject. I do however stand by the word 'pontificate' because that's exactly what a lot of people (not just on here) do. It is incredibly frustrating to hear men talk about inclusion and dismiss any potential problems as just the price to pay for x, y or z, when they won't have to deal directly with the impact. Basically, it's easy to say that 'people' should put up or shut up when you are not 'people'. All I was saying is to bear that in mind. And it cuts both way too, and I try to be mindful of it. It would be easy for me to say that transwomen should just play on mens' teams, or delay physical transition if they want to play sport, but I'm not trans and I don't suffer from gender dysphoria, so it's not something I would ever have to personally deal with myself (though, granted, I could someday have a child who suffered gender dysphoria which would give me more skin in the game, so to speak).

I also didn't have a problem with eldanielfire's response- I thought it was fair enough. I completely agree that there's a lot of bad faith argument from both sides. On the one side, you have people who consistently refer to transwomen as 'he' and have a blanket view that all transwomen wanting to play for women's teams are cheats and/or bullies. On the other side you have people who refuse to even consider that there could be any issues with blanket inclusion and/or simply say 'transwomen are women' end of debate, and if you have a problem with that you're transphobic (and how dare you victimise one of the most vulnerable groups in society etc etc).

In reality, it's an incredibly complex and difficult situation and I don't have the answers. I believe that (currently) the vast majority of transwomen who want to play in women's teams want to do so because they would be intensely uncomfortable playing on men's sides and simply wish to play alongside and against people they best identify with. I don't think the majority of transwomen wish to play women's sports because they view it as a way to chase sporting glory (at whatever level), but that doesn't mean that something like that couldn't become a problem in the future as women's sport becomes high profile and more lucrative, and if rules around trans participation are relaxed. It also doesn't mean that there aren't potential problems surrounding fairness and safety now. There is research suggesting that transwomen retain advantages in strength and speed following physical transition, even if their testosterone levels have been within the legal limits for competition for years, and my personal experience (which I will accept is anecdotal) is consistent with this. I don't really want to see a situation where transwomen have to play on men's teams (or compete against men) if they want to play certain sports, but if transwomen retain physical advantages from male puberty, it feels incredibly unfair for women and girls to miss out on competition, scholarships and playing opportunities. I'd like for there to be a way to look at it on a case by case basis, but I don't know how that would work on a practical level. There is clearly going to be a big difference in the risk of playing rugby against a 6'2'', 15 stone transwoman and playing against a 5'5'' 9 stone transwoman. However, you can't just categorise based on height and weight- men are still on average faster and stronger than women of similar height and weight, and men will still have certain biomechanical advantages however short and light they are. I don't know what metrics you could use, and how you'd fairly and reliably measure them, particularly given that there would be an incentive to underperform.

Like I said, I don't know the answer. I don't even know if there is one that will be acceptable to everyone. But it would be a good start if both sides could have an open and respectful discussion. If the one side would stop viewing all transwomen in women's sport as cheating men in dresses (and/or would actively speak out against and clearly disassociate themselves with people with that view), and if the other side would stop shouting 'transwomen are women and any further discussion is transphobic lalalalala' we might actually have a chance of getting somewhere.
Excellent post. May I just add one thing?
The advantage does not only stem from male puberty, etc. Across the board, prepubescent boys are faster, stronger and have significantly better gross motor skills, which leads to high coordination with ball games, than girls of their own age. Add to that, the other advantages that came from growing up playing sport as a male means the trans woman has likely been exposed to far more development, which in a game like rugby, means they're likely to have better ball skills and be better (bigger) tacklers. In short, there is a multitude of ways that trans women may have an advantage that does not relate to testosterone.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

:lol:
Last edited by towny on Mon May 10, 2021 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

bimboman wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:13 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:35 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 am But why don't you ask women?
Why should the basic human rights of transgender people be decided on the whim of women?


What about when the “judge” you require is a female?
:lol:

You're just a bad person.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:53 am
eldanielfire wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:28 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:23 am :yawn: You can't even grasp the concept of non-binary people. You're an active contributor to the abuse and marginalisation they face, as are all social conservatives.

A pretend white knight.

Trying hard to deflect away from your casual support of bigotry when you've been caught out so you lie and make false premises and false claims some more. This conversation is clearly over. You're done you uncaring bigot.
Bigotry is people desperately clinging onto the idea if you swap genders you forego your right to compete in sport with everyone else. That's you.


Bigotry is stating that trans women create a “danger” in the game of Rugby and need special consideration....

Why are you a transphobe Mutton.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:53 am
eldanielfire wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:28 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:23 am :yawn: You can't even grasp the concept of non-binary people. You're an active contributor to the abuse and marginalisation they face, as are all social conservatives.

A pretend white knight.

Trying hard to deflect away from your casual support of bigotry when you've been caught out so you lie and make false premises and false claims some more. This conversation is clearly over. You're done you uncaring bigot.
Bigotry is people desperately clinging onto the idea if you swap genders you forego your right to compete in sport with everyone else. That's you.
No it isn't you muppet
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

Ali's Choice wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:45 am
towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:43 am It would be like cheating. The best woman tennis player in the world wouldn't make the men's top 1000. AC would tell you that testosterone treatment eliminates the disparity completely.
Of course transgender people can't play pro-tennis, so once again you're creating a crisis that doesn't actually exist.

But trans women are women.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Bimboman is deliberately being a pain in the arse; however that is who he is. That's his thing. However, he's on pretty firm ground this time - he is actually using the exact arguments you guys were a few pages ago when you were trying to out-woke each other. Of course, you realise this.

You must know how weak your argument is. To AC's credit, he's acknowledged the complexity of the issue.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Rugbygirl wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:07 am To clarify, I wasn't trying to close down debate or tell anybody they couldn't have a view on the subject. I do however stand by the word 'pontificate' because that's exactly what a lot of people (not just on here) do. It is incredibly frustrating to hear men talk about inclusion and dismiss any potential problems as just the price to pay for x, y or z, when they won't have to deal directly with the impact.
Yeah you were just giving me a gentle reminder that because I have a dick this issue didn't really effect me. Plus you well know that the people with dicks on this thread have been voicing views right across the spectrum including ones that advocate the people who will be directly "dealing with the impact" should be the one to decide as in women.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by bimboman »

towny wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:20 pm Bimboman is deliberately being a pain in the arse; however that is who he is. That's his thing. However, he's on pretty firm ground this time - he is actually using the exact arguments you guys were a few pages ago when you were trying to out-woke each other. Of course, you realise this.

You must know how weak your argument is. To AC's credit, he's acknowledged the complexity of the issue.

It’s not being a pain in the arse thing, it’s a their argument is an illogical loop. They’ll avoid answering but the absolute reality is if you accept that trans women cause a safety concern in women’s rugby you have to accept that trans women aren’t women. As for silly AC and his “judge” well less said the better.

It isn’t actually that complex if you accept biological sex is binary and real and that “gender” is a societal construct regarding personal presentation and life choices then sport can make rulings based on sex.
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Re: NZ Transgender Weightlifter Cleared to Compete by the IOC

Post by towny »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:32 pm
Rugbygirl wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:07 am To clarify, I wasn't trying to close down debate or tell anybody they couldn't have a view on the subject. I do however stand by the word 'pontificate' because that's exactly what a lot of people (not just on here) do. It is incredibly frustrating to hear men talk about inclusion and dismiss any potential problems as just the price to pay for x, y or z, when they won't have to deal directly with the impact.
Yeah you were just giving me a gentle reminder that because I have a dick this issue didn't really effect me. Plus you well know that the people with dicks on this thread have been voicing views right across the spectrum including ones that advocate the people who will be directly "dealing with the impact" should be the one to decide as in women.
Man..... I'm guessing you were never a hit with the ladies. She is 100% correct. I can't imagine Alan Jones could react so poorly to what she's written.
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