COVID-19... lab or nature?

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Lab or nature

Lab release
48
59%
Natural species jump
27
33%
Gavin Henson
6
7%
 
Total votes: 81

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Farva
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Farva »

towny wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:24 am Yes and yes.

The Taiwan thing is so petty.
Everyone in Taiwan thinks they are a separate country. They have their own currency, their own government and no influence from China.
Why does China seem to think it’s theirs?
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Farva wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:32 am
towny wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:24 am Yes and yes.

The Taiwan thing is so petty.
Everyone in Taiwan thinks they are a separate country. They have their own currency, their own government and no influence from China.
Why does China seem to think it’s theirs?
They’re afraid we’ll think they’re weak as piss.
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Dozy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:04 pm
towny wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:40 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:16 am
towny wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:37 pm
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 10:04 pm NZ isn't suddenly claiming the high road though. Western countries, particularly Australia, have taken advantage of dreadful workers rights in China for decades. Now it's suddenly an issue?
I’m just a man, I’m not Australia and so i can choose to take the high road against things I think are shithouse, regardless of what my country does.

I like your other point though: Australia takes advantage of Chinese labour abuses because we sell them rocks. That’s genius.
You're being deliberately dopey.

The massive trade in iron ore, as shown on the graphs on this page, and coal like the lump your hero, Scott Morrison, held up in parliament shows that Australia have wilfully contributed to the authoritarian Chinese government's economic boom. Australia has enriched itself in full knowledge of poor human rights, zero democracy, an opaque and terrifying justice system, and non-existent workers rights.

I don't know how you sleep at night.
Poorly, but it has nothing to do with guilt over Australia's export of rocks to China.
You are ridiculous btw. The inferiority complex you obviously have kills you online - I wonder if it impacts your offline life.

I think you'd well to get into yoga or do something that makes you feel good about yourself.
Yuan is as strong as it has been on three years, and China is spending money all over the developing world, including Australia
A strong Yuan……

Do some people see ‘strong’ and figure that it’s good to have a strong currency. For some it is a good thing - for exporters though?
The PBOC said Monday that it would raise foreign-exchange reserve requirements for banks after a former central-bank official suggested to state media over the weekend that the currency’s recent strength wasn’t sustainable or desirable.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-rising-y ... 1622624914

Good work Dozy 😂
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

You don't even know what that means or the reasons behind it now do you Bogan Towny 😂
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Dozy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:39 pm You don't even know what that means or the reasons behind it now do you Bogan Towny 😂
One of us doesn’t.
naki111
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by naki111 »

Interesting take. Your thoughts big D?

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210531_34/
China has reacted harshly to Japan's proposal to offer coronavirus vaccines to Taiwan, saying vaccine assistance should not be a political tool.

Japan's Foreign Minister Motegi Toshimitsu said last Friday that the government is considering providing its extra supply of coronavirus vaccines to other countries and regions, including Taiwan.

China's foreign ministry spokesperson Wang Wenbin said at a news conference on Monday that Japan cannot even guarantee its own people enough vaccines at the moment. He said the media and many people, including those in Taiwan, had doubts about the offer.

Wang said vaccine assistance should return to its original purpose of saving lives, and not be reduced to a tool for political self-interest.

In response to Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-wen's accusation that China had blocked Taiwan's deal with a foreign vaccine maker, Wang said Beijing has made utmost efforts to help Taiwan. He went on to say that Taiwan's ruling Democratic Progressive Party was discouraging the distribution of vaccines made in China.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

I don’t accept your evidence. Not only do you not accept the evidence of others - you won’t even nominate what you would consider evidence.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Do articles from these sites constitute evidence?
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

Now, I'm less concerned about this Lab Leak Theory then I've even been. Set up by Pompeo and continued by Biden, it's the new Russiagate. It's a new Iraq dossier.

The thing is, more accusations will come, and more racist loons will be all over it, but it's all bluster.. The Yanks and their vessels will just make noise, because that's all they can and will do. They know this.

Just ignore and move on.
naki111
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by naki111 »

Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:30 am Now, I'm less concerned about this Lab Leak Theory then I've even been. Set up by Pompeo and continued by Biden, it's the new Russiagate. It's a new Iraq dossier.

The thing is, more accusations will come, and more racist loons will be all over it, but it's all bluster.. The Yanks and their vessels will just make noise, because that's all they can and will do. They know this.

Just ignore and move on.
Is there anything you would consider legitimate criticism or acceptable questioning of the CCP or is any quest for answers always under all circumstances motivated by racism?
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

naki111 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:34 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:30 am Now, I'm less concerned about this Lab Leak Theory then I've even been. Set up by Pompeo and continued by Biden, it's the new Russiagate. It's a new Iraq dossier.

The thing is, more accusations will come, and more racist loons will be all over it, but it's all bluster.. The Yanks and their vessels will just make noise, because that's all they can and will do. They know this.

Just ignore and move on.
Is there anything you would consider legitimate criticism or acceptable questioning of the CCP or is any quest for answers always under all circumstances motivated by racism?
Lots and lots. There are lots.

Now do I think that China is the biggest Geopolitical we face? Nope, not by a long shot. Do I mistrust those who relentlessly post stuff about China while ignoring other stuff...yeah sure I do. I question their motives and views, be it conscious and subconscious.
There is zero doubt that much of the media stuff aimed at China is 100% race-based. There is much more serious stuff which is being ignored purely based on the country that is being centre to the story.

There is a chemical weapons story in Syria which should be one of the biggest news stories of the last year and it's being routinely ignored.

We've a long history of this and we know what it is all about; I just don't think the wider world buys it anymore. We just talk to ourselves.

This is a broken playbook.

It's also different this time; it won't work. If our leaders were actually smart, they'd identify this and change course for a strategy that may cause less tension and more cooperation...and by that, I mean on multilateral terms not Washingtons.

Games up buddy.

Gonna go work now; this topic won't concern me. It's international political windmilling, from a drunk.
naki111
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by naki111 »

Who is 'we'?
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Flockwitt
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Flockwitt »

Farva wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:32 am
towny wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:24 am Yes and yes.

The Taiwan thing is so petty.
Everyone in Taiwan thinks they are a separate country. They have their own currency, their own government and no influence from China.
Why does China seem to think it’s theirs?
Unfortunately that and any wish list that includes China handing back territory has as much basis in reality as Doxy's ramblings. There's no simple solution for Taiwan. And given the example set in Hong Kong the pipe dream two systems one country theme is as dead as the dodo.

Just where the CCP ends up taking China who knows. The authoritarians are going to be keeping a hard line for a long while yet.
Monk Zombie
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Monk Zombie »

Isn’t “natural species jump” and Gavin Henson the same thing?
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by guy smiley »

Monk Zombie wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:22 am Isn’t “natural species jump” and Gavin Henson the same thing?
Image
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by jambanja »

Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:59 am
naki111 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:34 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:30 am Now, I'm less concerned about this Lab Leak Theory then I've even been. Set up by Pompeo and continued by Biden, it's the new Russiagate. It's a new Iraq dossier.

The thing is, more accusations will come, and more racist loons will be all over it, but it's all bluster.. The Yanks and their vessels will just make noise, because that's all they can and will do. They know this.

Just ignore and move on.
Is there anything you would consider legitimate criticism or acceptable questioning of the CCP or is any quest for answers always under all circumstances motivated by racism?
Lots and lots. There are lots.

Now do I think that China is the biggest Geopolitical we face? Nope, not by a long shot. Do I mistrust those who relentlessly post stuff about China while ignoring other stuff...yeah sure I do. I question their motives and views, be it conscious and subconscious.
There is zero doubt that much of the media stuff aimed at China is 100% race-based. There is much more serious stuff which is being ignored purely based on the country that is being centre to the story.

There is a chemical weapons story in Syria which should be one of the biggest news stories of the last year and it's being routinely ignored.

We've a long history of this and we know what it is all about; I just don't think the wider world buys it anymore. We just talk to ourselves.

This is a broken playbook.

It's also different this time; it won't work. If our leaders were actually smart, they'd identify this and change course for a strategy that may cause less tension and more cooperation...and by that, I mean on multilateral terms not Washingtons.

Games up buddy.

Gonna go work now; this topic won't concern me. It's international political windmilling, from a drunk.
I thought you were already at work
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:35 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:59 am
naki111 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:34 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:30 am Now, I'm less concerned about this Lab Leak Theory then I've even been. Set up by Pompeo and continued by Biden, it's the new Russiagate. It's a new Iraq dossier.

The thing is, more accusations will come, and more racist loons will be all over it, but it's all bluster.. The Yanks and their vessels will just make noise, because that's all they can and will do. They know this.

Just ignore and move on.
Is there anything you would consider legitimate criticism or acceptable questioning of the CCP or is any quest for answers always under all circumstances motivated by racism?
Lots and lots. There are lots.

Now do I think that China is the biggest Geopolitical we face? Nope, not by a long shot. Do I mistrust those who relentlessly post stuff about China while ignoring other stuff...yeah sure I do. I question their motives and views, be it conscious and subconscious.
There is zero doubt that much of the media stuff aimed at China is 100% race-based. There is much more serious stuff which is being ignored purely based on the country that is being centre to the story.

There is a chemical weapons story in Syria which should be one of the biggest news stories of the last year and it's being routinely ignored.

We've a long history of this and we know what it is all about; I just don't think the wider world buys it anymore. We just talk to ourselves.

This is a broken playbook.

It's also different this time; it won't work. If our leaders were actually smart, they'd identify this and change course for a strategy that may cause less tension and more cooperation...and by that, I mean on multilateral terms not Washingtons.

Games up buddy.

Gonna go work now; this topic won't concern me. It's international political windmilling, from a drunk.
I thought you were already at work
Coffee
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jambanja
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by jambanja »

Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:37 am
jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:35 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:59 am
naki111 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:34 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:30 am Now, I'm less concerned about this Lab Leak Theory then I've even been. Set up by Pompeo and continued by Biden, it's the new Russiagate. It's a new Iraq dossier.

The thing is, more accusations will come, and more racist loons will be all over it, but it's all bluster.. The Yanks and their vessels will just make noise, because that's all they can and will do. They know this.

Just ignore and move on.
Is there anything you would consider legitimate criticism or acceptable questioning of the CCP or is any quest for answers always under all circumstances motivated by racism?
Lots and lots. There are lots.

Now do I think that China is the biggest Geopolitical we face? Nope, not by a long shot. Do I mistrust those who relentlessly post stuff about China while ignoring other stuff...yeah sure I do. I question their motives and views, be it conscious and subconscious.
There is zero doubt that much of the media stuff aimed at China is 100% race-based. There is much more serious stuff which is being ignored purely based on the country that is being centre to the story.

There is a chemical weapons story in Syria which should be one of the biggest news stories of the last year and it's being routinely ignored.

We've a long history of this and we know what it is all about; I just don't think the wider world buys it anymore. We just talk to ourselves.

This is a broken playbook.

It's also different this time; it won't work. If our leaders were actually smart, they'd identify this and change course for a strategy that may cause less tension and more cooperation...and by that, I mean on multilateral terms not Washingtons.

Games up buddy.

Gonna go work now; this topic won't concern me. It's international political windmilling, from a drunk.
I thought you were already at work
Coffee
Thick
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:39 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:37 am
jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:35 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:59 am
naki111 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:34 am

Is there anything you would consider legitimate criticism or acceptable questioning of the CCP or is any quest for answers always under all circumstances motivated by racism?
Lots and lots. There are lots.

Now do I think that China is the biggest Geopolitical we face? Nope, not by a long shot. Do I mistrust those who relentlessly post stuff about China while ignoring other stuff...yeah sure I do. I question their motives and views, be it conscious and subconscious.
There is zero doubt that much of the media stuff aimed at China is 100% race-based. There is much more serious stuff which is being ignored purely based on the country that is being centre to the story.

There is a chemical weapons story in Syria which should be one of the biggest news stories of the last year and it's being routinely ignored.

We've a long history of this and we know what it is all about; I just don't think the wider world buys it anymore. We just talk to ourselves.

This is a broken playbook.

It's also different this time; it won't work. If our leaders were actually smart, they'd identify this and change course for a strategy that may cause less tension and more cooperation...and by that, I mean on multilateral terms not Washingtons.

Games up buddy.

Gonna go work now; this topic won't concern me. It's international political windmilling, from a drunk.
I thought you were already at work
Coffee
Thick
Are you not chicken running South African
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jambanja
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by jambanja »

Nope, close but no cigar, two go’s left
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:44 am Nope, close but no cigar, two go’s left
If you are gonna say Zimbabwe or some other place near SA then forget it
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by jambanja »

Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:17 am
jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:44 am Nope, close but no cigar, two go’s left
If you are gonna say Zimbabwe or some other place near SA then forget it
Forget what
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Sefton
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sefton »

jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:31 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:17 am
jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:44 am Nope, close but no cigar, two go’s left
If you are gonna say Zimbabwe or some other place near SA then forget it
Forget what
You all look the same to Dozy.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by jambanja »

Sefton wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:09 am
jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:31 am
Dozy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:17 am
jambanja wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:44 am Nope, close but no cigar, two go’s left
If you are gonna say Zimbabwe or some other place near SA then forget it
Forget what
You all look the same to Dozy.
:lol:
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Where is that Bindi dude?!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ing-apart/
Anthony S. Fauci told Congress last week that, despite growing support for the case that the pandemic emerged from the Wuhan lab, he still believes it came from nature. “I have always said that the high likelihood is that this is a natural occurrence,” Fauci said, “and I still maintain that.” Like so many things Fauci has told Americans about the pandemic, it looks increasingly like he could be proven wrong. Not only is there still zero evidence to support the theory that the virus emerged from nature, there are mounting signs that it did not.
Support our journalism. Subscribe today.
In the 15 months since the pandemic began, despite an exhaustive search, no intermediate host — an animal that caught the virus from bats and then spread it to humans — has been found. Nicholas Wade — a science reporter for nearly 50 years at Science, Nature and the New York Times — points out in his exhaustive report for the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists that during the SARS1 epidemic, the intermediate host (civet cats bred for human consumption) was identified in just four months.
Is it possible the virus jumped from bats to humans without an intermediate host? Perhaps. But a bat coronavirus is known to have directly infected humans only on one known occasion — in April 2012, when six people cleaning bat guano from a mine in China’s Yunnan province fell ill. However, it’s implausible that bats infected people in Wuhan. The city is more than 900 miles from the bat caves of Yunnan, and the bats’ range is just 30 miles. Moreover, temperatures in Wuhan in the winter of 2019, when the pandemic hit, would have sent the bats into hibernation. But what if a person infected in Yunnan brought the virus to Wuhan? As Wade explains, that individual “must have traveled … without infecting anyone else. No one in his or her family got sick. If the person jumped on a train to Wuhan, no fellow passengers fell ill.” That scenario is also highly unlikely.

Furthermore, if SARS2 jumped directly from bats to people, then it should still be good at infecting bats. But it isn’t. Studies show that “tested bat species are poorly infected by SARS-CoV-2, and they are therefore unlikely to be the direct source for human infection.” In fact, Wade writes, there is no evidence the virus ever infected bats. No original bat population has been found. Indeed, he points out, researchers have found no evidence showing any creature — animal or human — had ever been exposed to the virus before the winter of 2019.
Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic
Then there is the structure of the virus itself. Pandemic viruses don’t become highly transmissible or deadly in a single jump. As Wade explains, “The coronavirus spike protein, adapted to attack bat cells, needs repeated jumps to another species, most of which fail, before it gains a lucky mutation.” In the case of SARS1, the virus mutated before it made the jump from bats to civets, then it made six further documented changes before it became a mild pathogen in humans, then made 14 more changes to become more adapted to people, and then four more before it was able to cause an epidemic.
But, Wade continues, “when you look for the fingerprints of a similar transition in SARS2, a strange surprise awaits. The virus has changed hardly at all, at least until recently. From its very first appearance, it was well adapted to human cells.” This would make perfect sense if it was engineered in a lab to become transmissible to humans — but not if it emerged from nature.

Not only is SARS2 missing these natural mutations, Wade writes, but it also includes a surprising addition: a “furin cleavage site” on its spike protein that allows it to invade human cells. Why is this surprising? Because SARS2 is the only known SARS-related coronavirus that has a furin site; the rest use a different mechanism to infect humans. It’s improbable that SARS2 picked up its furin site naturally, but Wade cites an academic paper that points out “at least 11 gain-of-function experiments, adding a furin site to make a virus more infective, are published in the open literature, including [by] Dr. Zhengli Shi, head of coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.” That’s right, the “bat lady” of the Wuhan lab — the one who received funding via a U.S. contractor from Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases — experimented with furin sites to make coronaviruses more infectious for humans.
Bottom line? As former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb recently explained, evidence for a lab leak is mounting, while the evidence for natural origin “has contracted.” At this point, he says, the burden should be on Beijing to “provide evidence that would be exculpatory,” such as virus samples, blood samples from lab workers hospitalized with covid-like symptoms in November 2019, and unfettered access to the lab and its personnel. So long as the Chinese Communist Party fails to provide that exculpatory evidence, and obstructs an impartial international investigation, then the assumption should be that the Wuhan lab was the source of the pandemic — and that Beijing must be held to account.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by vh5150 »

Nice to see things that have been known since April 2020 starting be reported and investigated in the mainstream media now. Good article.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sefton »

The opening paragraph is moronic, you don’t need evidence that the virus jumped species, that’s what viruses do.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by pigaaaa »

Sefton wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:34 am The opening paragraph is moronic, you don’t need evidence that the virus jumped species, that’s what viruses do.
How do you know ... if not from Evidence?
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Sefton
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sefton »

pigaaaa wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:58 am
Sefton wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:34 am The opening paragraph is moronic, you don’t need evidence that the virus jumped species, that’s what viruses do.
How do you know ... if not from Evidence?
Are you trying to be ironic there or do you need evidence every morning that the sun is going to come up?
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by pigaaaa »

Sefton wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:04 am
pigaaaa wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:58 am
Sefton wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:34 am The opening paragraph is moronic, you don’t need evidence that the virus jumped species, that’s what viruses do.
How do you know ... if not from Evidence?
Are you trying to be ironic there or do you need evidence every morning that the sun is going to come up?
The article is not arguing that evidence is needed to prove it’s possible viruses can jump species. If it did - you would have a point.

It Is about this particular one virus only, where there is indeed no evidence that it’s how it originated. Would be good to have it.

It is your post which is moronic.

And by the way I still tend to lean towards the ‘nature’ option.

Edit: and to clarify my point. When I say there is no evidence I mean no direct evidence in the form of finding the animal host - which is what the opening paragraph was about and which you called moronic.

I would even agree that the ‘natural origin’ option should be the go to option unless conclusively proven otherwise. But to say we don’t need any evidence in this case “because that’s what viruses do” is .... ahem ... moronic
Last edited by pigaaaa on Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Bindi »

towny wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:57 pm Where is that Bindi dude?!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ing-apart/
Anthony S. Fauci told Congress last week that, despite growing support for the case that the pandemic emerged from the Wuhan lab, he still believes it came from nature. “I have always said that the high likelihood is that this is a natural occurrence,” Fauci said, “and I still maintain that.” Like so many things Fauci has told Americans about the pandemic, it looks increasingly like he could be proven wrong. Not only is there still zero evidence to support the theory that the virus emerged from nature, there are mounting signs that it did not.
Support our journalism. Subscribe today.
In the 15 months since the pandemic began, despite an exhaustive search, no intermediate host — an animal that caught the virus from bats and then spread it to humans — has been found. Nicholas Wade — a science reporter for nearly 50 years at Science, Nature and the New York Times — points out in his exhaustive report for the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists that during the SARS1 epidemic, the intermediate host (civet cats bred for human consumption) was identified in just four months.
Is it possible the virus jumped from bats to humans without an intermediate host? Perhaps. But a bat coronavirus is known to have directly infected humans only on one known occasion — in April 2012, when six people cleaning bat guano from a mine in China’s Yunnan province fell ill. However, it’s implausible that bats infected people in Wuhan. The city is more than 900 miles from the bat caves of Yunnan, and the bats’ range is just 30 miles. Moreover, temperatures in Wuhan in the winter of 2019, when the pandemic hit, would have sent the bats into hibernation. But what if a person infected in Yunnan brought the virus to Wuhan? As Wade explains, that individual “must have traveled … without infecting anyone else. No one in his or her family got sick. If the person jumped on a train to Wuhan, no fellow passengers fell ill.” That scenario is also highly unlikely.

Furthermore, if SARS2 jumped directly from bats to people, then it should still be good at infecting bats. But it isn’t. Studies show that “tested bat species are poorly infected by SARS-CoV-2, and they are therefore unlikely to be the direct source for human infection.” In fact, Wade writes, there is no evidence the virus ever infected bats. No original bat population has been found. Indeed, he points out, researchers have found no evidence showing any creature — animal or human — had ever been exposed to the virus before the winter of 2019.
Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic
Then there is the structure of the virus itself. Pandemic viruses don’t become highly transmissible or deadly in a single jump. As Wade explains, “The coronavirus spike protein, adapted to attack bat cells, needs repeated jumps to another species, most of which fail, before it gains a lucky mutation.” In the case of SARS1, the virus mutated before it made the jump from bats to civets, then it made six further documented changes before it became a mild pathogen in humans, then made 14 more changes to become more adapted to people, and then four more before it was able to cause an epidemic.
But, Wade continues, “when you look for the fingerprints of a similar transition in SARS2, a strange surprise awaits. The virus has changed hardly at all, at least until recently. From its very first appearance, it was well adapted to human cells.” This would make perfect sense if it was engineered in a lab to become transmissible to humans — but not if it emerged from nature.

Not only is SARS2 missing these natural mutations, Wade writes, but it also includes a surprising addition: a “furin cleavage site” on its spike protein that allows it to invade human cells. Why is this surprising? Because SARS2 is the only known SARS-related coronavirus that has a furin site; the rest use a different mechanism to infect humans. It’s improbable that SARS2 picked up its furin site naturally, but Wade cites an academic paper that points out “at least 11 gain-of-function experiments, adding a furin site to make a virus more infective, are published in the open literature, including [by] Dr. Zhengli Shi, head of coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.” That’s right, the “bat lady” of the Wuhan lab — the one who received funding via a U.S. contractor from Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases — experimented with furin sites to make coronaviruses more infectious for humans.
Bottom line? As former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb recently explained, evidence for a lab leak is mounting, while the evidence for natural origin “has contracted.” At this point, he says, the burden should be on Beijing to “provide evidence that would be exculpatory,” such as virus samples, blood samples from lab workers hospitalized with covid-like symptoms in November 2019, and unfettered access to the lab and its personnel. So long as the Chinese Communist Party fails to provide that exculpatory evidence, and obstructs an impartial international investigation, then the assumption should be that the Wuhan lab was the source of the pandemic — and that Beijing must be held to account.
Except for the science part being wrong, it sounds like a legit argument. I on bored. :thumbup:
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Sefton
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sefton »

:?:
pigaaaa wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:13 am
Sefton wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:04 am
pigaaaa wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:58 am
Sefton wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:34 am The opening paragraph is moronic, you don’t need evidence that the virus jumped species, that’s what viruses do.
How do you know ... if not from Evidence?
Are you trying to be ironic there or do you need evidence every morning that the sun is going to come up?
The article is not arguing that evidence is needed to prove it’s possible viruses can jump species. If it did - you would have a point.

It Is about this particular one virus only, where there is indeed no evidence that it’s how it originated. Would be good to have it.

It is your post which is moronic.

And by the way I still tend to lean towards the ‘nature’ option.

Edit: and to clarify my point. When I say there is no evidence I mean no direct evidence in the form of finding the animal host - which is what the opening paragraph was about and which you called moronic.

I would even agree that the ‘natural origin’ option should be the go to option unless conclusively proven otherwise. But to say we don’t need any evidence in this case “because that’s what viruses do” is .... ahem ... moronic
Nonsense, the a priori assumption should be that the virus jumped species, we don’t need evidence for this individual virus because we have a history of evidence that viruses jump species. This virus isn’t any different until there is evidence that it didn’t.
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message #2527204
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by message #2527204 »

Bindi wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:14 am
towny wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:57 pm Where is that Bindi dude?!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ing-apart/
Anthony S. Fauci told Congress last week that, despite growing support for the case that the pandemic emerged from the Wuhan lab, he still believes it came from nature. “I have always said that the high likelihood is that this is a natural occurrence,” Fauci said, “and I still maintain that.” Like so many things Fauci has told Americans about the pandemic, it looks increasingly like he could be proven wrong. Not only is there still zero evidence to support the theory that the virus emerged from nature, there are mounting signs that it did not.
Support our journalism. Subscribe today.
In the 15 months since the pandemic began, despite an exhaustive search, no intermediate host — an animal that caught the virus from bats and then spread it to humans — has been found. Nicholas Wade — a science reporter for nearly 50 years at Science, Nature and the New York Times — points out in his exhaustive report for the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists that during the SARS1 epidemic, the intermediate host (civet cats bred for human consumption) was identified in just four months.
Is it possible the virus jumped from bats to humans without an intermediate host? Perhaps. But a bat coronavirus is known to have directly infected humans only on one known occasion — in April 2012, when six people cleaning bat guano from a mine in China’s Yunnan province fell ill. However, it’s implausible that bats infected people in Wuhan. The city is more than 900 miles from the bat caves of Yunnan, and the bats’ range is just 30 miles. Moreover, temperatures in Wuhan in the winter of 2019, when the pandemic hit, would have sent the bats into hibernation. But what if a person infected in Yunnan brought the virus to Wuhan? As Wade explains, that individual “must have traveled … without infecting anyone else. No one in his or her family got sick. If the person jumped on a train to Wuhan, no fellow passengers fell ill.” That scenario is also highly unlikely.

Furthermore, if SARS2 jumped directly from bats to people, then it should still be good at infecting bats. But it isn’t. Studies show that “tested bat species are poorly infected by SARS-CoV-2, and they are therefore unlikely to be the direct source for human infection.” In fact, Wade writes, there is no evidence the virus ever infected bats. No original bat population has been found. Indeed, he points out, researchers have found no evidence showing any creature — animal or human — had ever been exposed to the virus before the winter of 2019.
Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic
Then there is the structure of the virus itself. Pandemic viruses don’t become highly transmissible or deadly in a single jump. As Wade explains, “The coronavirus spike protein, adapted to attack bat cells, needs repeated jumps to another species, most of which fail, before it gains a lucky mutation.” In the case of SARS1, the virus mutated before it made the jump from bats to civets, then it made six further documented changes before it became a mild pathogen in humans, then made 14 more changes to become more adapted to people, and then four more before it was able to cause an epidemic.
But, Wade continues, “when you look for the fingerprints of a similar transition in SARS2, a strange surprise awaits. The virus has changed hardly at all, at least until recently. From its very first appearance, it was well adapted to human cells.” This would make perfect sense if it was engineered in a lab to become transmissible to humans — but not if it emerged from nature.

Not only is SARS2 missing these natural mutations, Wade writes, but it also includes a surprising addition: a “furin cleavage site” on its spike protein that allows it to invade human cells. Why is this surprising? Because SARS2 is the only known SARS-related coronavirus that has a furin site; the rest use a different mechanism to infect humans. It’s improbable that SARS2 picked up its furin site naturally, but Wade cites an academic paper that points out “at least 11 gain-of-function experiments, adding a furin site to make a virus more infective, are published in the open literature, including [by] Dr. Zhengli Shi, head of coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.” That’s right, the “bat lady” of the Wuhan lab — the one who received funding via a U.S. contractor from Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases — experimented with furin sites to make coronaviruses more infectious for humans.
Bottom line? As former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb recently explained, evidence for a lab leak is mounting, while the evidence for natural origin “has contracted.” At this point, he says, the burden should be on Beijing to “provide evidence that would be exculpatory,” such as virus samples, blood samples from lab workers hospitalized with covid-like symptoms in November 2019, and unfettered access to the lab and its personnel. So long as the Chinese Communist Party fails to provide that exculpatory evidence, and obstructs an impartial international investigation, then the assumption should be that the Wuhan lab was the source of the pandemic — and that Beijing must be held to account.
Except for the science part being wrong, it sounds like a legit argument. I on bored. :thumbup:
It is full of really bizarre arguments.
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

Over 60% in the poll here are in the lab release group.

They will ignore scientists who argue against the lab release theory and fully support fringe journalists who promote it.

The same people will wholeheartedly swallow anything in regards to covid spouted by the mainstream media. They ride variants like a rollercoaster at Thorpe Park.
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vh5150
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by vh5150 »

... except for the past 18 months bad science and poor media have dominated the narrative. It is important that the origin of SAR COV II be determined. Putting aside any “intent” the lab escape option has always been plausible if following the science. Many world “experts”, virologists and institutions eg The Lancet, Stamford University, W.H.O, CDC etc have not. Why not? Or repairable damage has been done and it stinks. De Pierre Kory and the FLCCC have been doing remarkable work with existing therapeutics for prophylaxis and treatment of Covid. Yet after plenty of evidence on effectiveness on the use of corticosteroids, HQC, Vit D and most importantly Ivermectin national institutions will still not update their treatment protocols to endorse MATH+ and I-MASS plans. All the focus is on new drugs eg Remdesivir (ineffective) and vaccines. Using drugs 40 years older doesn’t suit Big Pharma ....”show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome”
towny
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Location: Perth

Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Bindi wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:14 am
towny wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:57 pm Where is that Bindi dude?!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ing-apart/
Anthony S. Fauci told Congress last week that, despite growing support for the case that the pandemic emerged from the Wuhan lab, he still believes it came from nature. “I have always said that the high likelihood is that this is a natural occurrence,” Fauci said, “and I still maintain that.” Like so many things Fauci has told Americans about the pandemic, it looks increasingly like he could be proven wrong. Not only is there still zero evidence to support the theory that the virus emerged from nature, there are mounting signs that it did not.
Support our journalism. Subscribe today.
In the 15 months since the pandemic began, despite an exhaustive search, no intermediate host — an animal that caught the virus from bats and then spread it to humans — has been found. Nicholas Wade — a science reporter for nearly 50 years at Science, Nature and the New York Times — points out in his exhaustive report for the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists that during the SARS1 epidemic, the intermediate host (civet cats bred for human consumption) was identified in just four months.
Is it possible the virus jumped from bats to humans without an intermediate host? Perhaps. But a bat coronavirus is known to have directly infected humans only on one known occasion — in April 2012, when six people cleaning bat guano from a mine in China’s Yunnan province fell ill. However, it’s implausible that bats infected people in Wuhan. The city is more than 900 miles from the bat caves of Yunnan, and the bats’ range is just 30 miles. Moreover, temperatures in Wuhan in the winter of 2019, when the pandemic hit, would have sent the bats into hibernation. But what if a person infected in Yunnan brought the virus to Wuhan? As Wade explains, that individual “must have traveled … without infecting anyone else. No one in his or her family got sick. If the person jumped on a train to Wuhan, no fellow passengers fell ill.” That scenario is also highly unlikely.

Furthermore, if SARS2 jumped directly from bats to people, then it should still be good at infecting bats. But it isn’t. Studies show that “tested bat species are poorly infected by SARS-CoV-2, and they are therefore unlikely to be the direct source for human infection.” In fact, Wade writes, there is no evidence the virus ever infected bats. No original bat population has been found. Indeed, he points out, researchers have found no evidence showing any creature — animal or human — had ever been exposed to the virus before the winter of 2019.
Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic
Then there is the structure of the virus itself. Pandemic viruses don’t become highly transmissible or deadly in a single jump. As Wade explains, “The coronavirus spike protein, adapted to attack bat cells, needs repeated jumps to another species, most of which fail, before it gains a lucky mutation.” In the case of SARS1, the virus mutated before it made the jump from bats to civets, then it made six further documented changes before it became a mild pathogen in humans, then made 14 more changes to become more adapted to people, and then four more before it was able to cause an epidemic.
But, Wade continues, “when you look for the fingerprints of a similar transition in SARS2, a strange surprise awaits. The virus has changed hardly at all, at least until recently. From its very first appearance, it was well adapted to human cells.” This would make perfect sense if it was engineered in a lab to become transmissible to humans — but not if it emerged from nature.

Not only is SARS2 missing these natural mutations, Wade writes, but it also includes a surprising addition: a “furin cleavage site” on its spike protein that allows it to invade human cells. Why is this surprising? Because SARS2 is the only known SARS-related coronavirus that has a furin site; the rest use a different mechanism to infect humans. It’s improbable that SARS2 picked up its furin site naturally, but Wade cites an academic paper that points out “at least 11 gain-of-function experiments, adding a furin site to make a virus more infective, are published in the open literature, including [by] Dr. Zhengli Shi, head of coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.” That’s right, the “bat lady” of the Wuhan lab — the one who received funding via a U.S. contractor from Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases — experimented with furin sites to make coronaviruses more infectious for humans.
Bottom line? As former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb recently explained, evidence for a lab leak is mounting, while the evidence for natural origin “has contracted.” At this point, he says, the burden should be on Beijing to “provide evidence that would be exculpatory,” such as virus samples, blood samples from lab workers hospitalized with covid-like symptoms in November 2019, and unfettered access to the lab and its personnel. So long as the Chinese Communist Party fails to provide that exculpatory evidence, and obstructs an impartial international investigation, then the assumption should be that the Wuhan lab was the source of the pandemic — and that Beijing must be held to account.
Except for the science part being wrong, it sounds like a legit argument. I on bored. :thumbup:
Thanks Bindi 👍
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Dozy wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:37 am Over 60% in the poll here are in the lab release group.

They will ignore scientists who argue against the lab release theory and fully support fringe journalists who promote it.

The same people will wholeheartedly swallow anything in regards to covid spouted by the mainstream media. They ride variants like a rollercoaster at Thorpe Park.
There are 4 options:
1. Naturally occurred and first detected at Wuhan, which would be remarkable but possible
2. Naturally occurred and accidentally released from a Wuhan lab as it was being studied, which is possible
3. Man-made virus that was designed to be studied but was accidentally released, but I’m happy that Bindi says this is extremely unlikely
4. Man-made bio weapon that the Chinese decided to unleash on its own people, which is possible but sounds scientifically unlikely and makes little sense
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