How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice
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How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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I'm interested to see how this comp will be remembered in comparison to other Super Rugby comps. It's a very short comp, with just five round-robin games and a final. A maximum of six games in total.

It's also been very lopsided. Sixty percent of the NZ teams are yet to lose a game, and those that have lost a game have only lost one match. I suppose if the Crusaders were to somehow qualify for the final and then win it, I'd claim it as our 6th title in a row but it would certainly feel different to the other ones we've won. It's essentially come down to a battle for winning bonus points.

Given the way this comp was hastily put together, and its many shortcomings and limitations, I would be happy for it to be expunged from the record books. I don't feel that winning this comp can be equated to winning previous Super Rugby or Super Rugby Aotearoa comps.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Shall we revisit your opinion if the Crusaders happen to win it?

Yes it is a hastily put together stop-gap competition but hey if you've won it you've won it and it has had it's uses. It's got the SR teams playing against ones from other countries at long last and it's given the Aussies a good idea of where they're at with regards to the NZ teams.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Wignu wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:27 pm Shall we revisit your opinion if the Crusaders happen to win it?
Blind or stupid?
I suppose if the Crusaders were to somehow qualify for the final and then win it, I'd claim it as our 6th title in a row
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:18 pm I'm interested to see how this comp will be remembered in comparison to other Super Rugby comps. It's a very short comp, with just five round-robin games and a final. A maximum of six games in total.

It's also been very lopsided. Sixty percent of the NZ teams are yet to lose a game, and those that have lost a game have only lost one match. I suppose if the Crusaders were to somehow qualify for the final and then win it, I'd claim it as our 6th title in a row but it would certainly feel different to the other ones we've won. It's essentially come down to a battle for winning bonus points.

Given the way this comp was hastily put together, and its many shortcomings and limitations, I would be happy for it to be expunged from the record books. I don't feel that winning this comp can be equated to winning previous Super Rugby or Super Rugby Aotearoa comps.
I remember a long time ago you called for the South African's to removed from the Super Rugby competition.

Well this competition is a joke so far.

It's no where near as good as when the South African's were playing.

You got what you wished for.

But given the circumstances of Covid-19 and the fact that the Australian's have reverted to 5 teams. This is the best that can be hoped for at the moment.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:34 pm I remember a long time ago you called for the South African's to removed from the Super Rugby competition.

Well this competition is a joke so far.

It's no where near as good as when the South African's were playing.

You got what you wished for.
Did I miss the memo about today being 'Stupid post Sunday'?

The flaws in the comp have nothing to do with South Africa being deservedly dumped from SR and everything to do with the haste of its inception. If we played a 5 week long comp against the South African teams it would be just as flawed and just as lopsided.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by guy smiley »

I think it's valid to compare rugby to professional cycling and the exploits of the greats in the sport...

to be a winner in pro cycling means having to be able to master different disciplines. Climbing, sprinting, descending are all specialised and demanding... but then you have short sprint races like criteriums, three week long stage races that combine everything and the Classics, incredibly demanding one day races that compare to the Olympic Road Race in stature and toughness.

One man stands head and shoulders above all others in the sport... The Cannibal, Eddie Merckx. He won an insane percentage of the races he entered and if he didn't win he was usually on the podium.

No win was meaningless for The Cannibal. He simply had to go and do what he was best at doing and pretenders to the crown could only look on and bear witness to greatness.

Sorry... what was..

oh yeah. It'll feel just as erotic as it always does if the Crusaders win again.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:34 pm
Wignu wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:27 pm Shall we revisit your opinion if the Crusaders happen to win it?
Blind or stupid?
I suppose if the Crusaders were to somehow qualify for the final and then win it, I'd claim it as our 6th title in a row
Ooops :blush: former ... no need to get shirty about it.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by obelixtim »

On that note, anyone seen a points table for TT Soup? PR don't feel its important enough to include one, and its tricky to keep up with where teams are.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Wignu »

obelixtim wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:04 am On that note, anyone seen a points table for TT Soup? PR don't feel its important enough to include one, and its tricky to keep up with where teams are.
https://www.flashscore.com/rugby-union/ ... standings/
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by shanky »

I think it will be memorable, because it’ll be the only one of its kind.

Next year will be very different.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by les@mooloolaba »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:18 pm I'm interested to see how this comp will be remembered in comparison to other Super Rugby comps. It's a very short comp, with just five round-robin games and a final. A maximum of six games in total.

It's also been very lopsided. Sixty percent of the NZ teams are yet to lose a game, and those that have lost a game have only lost one match. I suppose if the Crusaders were to somehow qualify for the final and then win it, I'd claim it as our 6th title in a row but it would certainly feel different to the other ones we've won. It's essentially come down to a battle for winning bonus points.

Given the way this comp was hastily put together, and its many shortcomings and limitations, I would be happy for it to be expunged from the record books. I don't feel that winning this comp can be equated to winning previous Super Rugby or Super Rugby Aotearoa comps.
When looking back over the last few years I dont think the absence of Saffer teams would make much difference to the eventual winner of this comp. Their teams just dont compete consistently anymore. It would always come down to a couple of NZ teams as it will this time. The Ozzie teams just dont have the skills or rugby nous to compete with the NZ teams.

Maybe the absence of the Saffer teams condenses the comp, but as GS says, you have to want to be winner every game and adapt your game to the way this comp is run, which means getting a bonus and making sure the other team doesnt. Attack and defence should be no different to any other game.

This comp means the same to me as any other comp and am bitterly dissapointed that the Chiefs are out of the comp unless the top teams also lose, which is unlikely.

On another note, do you always have to regularly call other posters opinions stupid when they disagree with you AC? It is somewhat churlish of you, you are better than that. I dont always agree with your posts, but always respect your opinion,
Last edited by les@mooloolaba on Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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It doesn’t count. Any comp that a team could miss a final after not losing a game is a nothing comp.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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shanky wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:09 am I think it will be memorable, because it’ll be the only one of its kind.

Next year will be very different.
Yes it will be. This years comp was obviously hastily put together by people who weren't thinking very clearly. I wonder if we'd have been better off if they'd left Trans Tasman this year, and started with the proper comp this year? I think the last 5 weeks have done more harm than gone for Rugby on both sides of the Tasman and for the Trans Tasman concept.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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les@mooloolaba wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am On another note, do you always have to regularly call other posters opinions stupid when they disagree with you AC? It is somewhat churlish of you, you are better than that. I dont always agree with your posts, but always respect your opinion,
It's not personal, it's just my style of posting. And I certainly don't take it personally when posters respond in kind.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Shrekles wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am It doesn’t count. Any comp that a team could miss a final after not losing a game is a nothing comp.

Couldn't disagree more. I think that argument is a total red herring. This is a sort of sprint format competition where just winning isn't enough on its own. Teams have to play for maximum and go for the bonus points. If they're not good enough to get them then they don't deserve to play in the final. Simple.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Shrekles wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am It doesn’t count. Any comp that a team could miss a final after not losing a game is a nothing comp.
The Crusaders can win next week and still fail to make the final. And then we'd finish the overall comp with fewer losses than the team that loses in the final. Tbh if we win every game but don't win the comp I would be relaxed, you can't ask the team to do much more than win every game. Especially given this comp started the week after the SR Aotearoa Final, which IMO was the worst aspect of this comp.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by les@mooloolaba »

guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:16 am
Shrekles wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am It doesn’t count. Any comp that a team could miss a final after not losing a game is a nothing comp.

Couldn't disagree more. I think that argument is a total red herring. This is a sort of sprint format competition where just winning isn't enough on its own. Teams have to play for maximum and go for the bonus points. If they're not good enough to get them then they don't deserve to play in the final. Simple.
Yep, we both agree that you have to adapt for this comp. The teams have to be up for every game, which is sort of similar to knockout in the RWC.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:12 am
shanky wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:09 am I think it will be memorable, because it’ll be the only one of its kind.

Next year will be very different.
Yes it will be. This years comp was obviously hastily put together by people who weren't thinking very clearly. I wonder if we'd have been better off if they'd left Trans Tasman this year, and started with the proper comp this year? I think the last 5 weeks have done more harm than gone for Rugby on both sides of the Tasman and for the Trans Tasman concept.
In case you haven't noticed there is a global pandemic happening and until recently New Zealand and Australia had closed their borders to everyone.

Both countries unions are under serious threat financially.

It's the best that could be done given the circumstances and given the ongoing outbreaks occurring in Australia.

Rugby globally will take a long time to recover from this like other sports and potentially we may have already seen peak rugby given the pastimes and pursuits of Millennials, Gen-Z and Gen Alpha.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:17 am
Shrekles wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am It doesn’t count. Any comp that a team could miss a final after not losing a game is a nothing comp.
The Crusaders can win next week and still fail to make the final. And then we'd finish the overall comp with fewer losses than the team that loses in the final. Tbh if we win every game but don't win the comp I would be relaxed, you can't ask the team to do much more than win every game. Especially given this comp started the week after the SR Aotearoa Final, which IMO was the worst aspect of this comp.
The only thing I like about this comp is the fact that I have been able to see the crusaders play live.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:19 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:12 am
shanky wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:09 am I think it will be memorable, because it’ll be the only one of its kind.

Next year will be very different.
Yes it will be. This years comp was obviously hastily put together by people who weren't thinking very clearly. I wonder if we'd have been better off if they'd left Trans Tasman this year, and started with the proper comp this year? I think the last 5 weeks have done more harm than gone for Rugby on both sides of the Tasman and for the Trans Tasman concept.
In case you haven't noticed there is a global pandemic happening and until recently New Zealand and Australia had closed their borders to everyone.
Says the posters who still harps on regularly about wanting the South Africans involved in SR. How would that even happen under the current travel restrictions?
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:19 am Both countries unions are under serious threat financially.
You've forgotten about NZR's $600 million Silver Lake deal?
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:15 am
les@mooloolaba wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 am On another note, do you always have to regularly call other posters opinions stupid when they disagree with you AC? It is somewhat churlish of you, you are better than that. I dont always agree with your posts, but always respect your opinion,
It's not personal, it's just my style of posting. And I certainly don't take it personally when posters respond in kind.
Les frequently calls the female Premier of NSW, a ‘cvnt’

Les doesn’t need to offer advice on being churlish
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:12 am
shanky wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:09 am I think it will be memorable, because it’ll be the only one of its kind.

Next year will be very different.
Yes it will be. This years comp was obviously hastily put together by people who weren't thinking very clearly. I wonder if we'd have been better off if they'd left Trans Tasman this year, and started with the proper comp this year? I think the last 5 weeks have done more harm than gone for Rugby on both sides of the Tasman and for the Trans Tasman concept.
Australian rugby’s involvement will be very different next year

Nine and Stan didn’t pay millions to have a few thousand viewers tune in to watch our teams getting thrashed.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:17 am The Crusaders can win next week and still fail to make the final. And then we'd finish the overall comp with fewer losses than the team that loses in the final.
Eat it. That's the reality. You arguing that angle is like watching a cat do a reverse somersault trying to catch a bird and landing on its face.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:27 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:17 am The Crusaders can win next week and still fail to make the final. And then we'd finish the overall comp with fewer losses than the team that loses in the final.
Eat it. That's the reality. You arguing that angle is like watching a cat do a reverse somersault trying to catch a bird and landing on its face.
I'm simply trying to gauge how people compare this year's TT comp to previous SR comps. If you think winning this comp is as tough as winning Super Rugby Aotearoa, or the Crusaders winning in 2017 when they played every NZ team twice and then played a final away against the Lions in Johannesburg, then that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion even if it's wrong :thumbup:
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:32 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:27 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:17 am The Crusaders can win next week and still fail to make the final. And then we'd finish the overall comp with fewer losses than the team that loses in the final.
Eat it. That's the reality. You arguing that angle is like watching a cat do a reverse somersault trying to catch a bird and landing on its face.
I'm simply trying to gauge how people compare this year's TT comp to previous SR comps. If you think winning this comp is as tough as winning Super Rugby Aotearoa, or the Crusaders winning in 2017 when they played every NZ team twice and then played a final away against the Lions in Johannesburg, then that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion even if it's wrong :thumbup:
You don't deserve that avatar.

Change it immediately or face planetary ejection. Your choice.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:21 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:19 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:12 am
shanky wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:09 am I think it will be memorable, because it’ll be the only one of its kind.

Next year will be very different.
Yes it will be. This years comp was obviously hastily put together by people who weren't thinking very clearly. I wonder if we'd have been better off if they'd left Trans Tasman this year, and started with the proper comp this year? I think the last 5 weeks have done more harm than gone for Rugby on both sides of the Tasman and for the Trans Tasman concept.
In case you haven't noticed there is a global pandemic happening and until recently New Zealand and Australia had closed their borders to everyone.
Says the posters who still harps on regularly about wanting the South Africans involved in SR. How would that even happen under the current travel restrictions?
I've already acknowledged that New Zealand and Australia are the best we can do at the moment.

You admitted in your first post that you would determine the value of the competition based on the Crusaders results.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:49 am I've already acknowledged that New Zealand and Australia are the best we can do at the moment.

You admitted in your first post that you would determine the value of the competition based on the Crusaders results.
No I didn't. I said I would celebrate it as a title win if the Crusaders were to win it, despite the fact that this competition is obviously of lower value than previous SR tournaments.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Pakia Pakia »

The competition is actually extremely difficult to win. Each team must play extremely well in every game in both attack and defence to make it into the final. In past competitions it was ok to have a few off games and lose yet still win the comp.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:52 am The competition is actually extremely difficult to win. Each team must play extremely well in every game in both attack and defence to make it into the final. In past competitions it was ok to have a few off games and lose yet still win the comp.
I agree that shorter comps do have challenges that longer comps don't have.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Winning would feel nice, just as it felt good to win super rugby Aotearoa.

But The titles aren't comparable. These are very much filler competitions to tide us over.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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Fat Old Git wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:57 am But The titles aren't comparable. These are very much filler competitions to tide us over.
Careful, there are several NZ based posters who will crucify you for stating the obvious.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by grievous »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:19 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:12 am
shanky wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:09 am I think it will be memorable, because it’ll be the only one of its kind.

Next year will be very different.
Yes it will be. This years comp was obviously hastily put together by people who weren't thinking very clearly. I wonder if we'd have been better off if they'd left Trans Tasman this year, and started with the proper comp this year? I think the last 5 weeks have done more harm than gone for Rugby on both sides of the Tasman and for the Trans Tasman concept.
In case you haven't noticed there is a global pandemic happening and until recently New Zealand and Australia had closed their borders to everyone.

Both countries unions are under serious threat financially.

It's the best that could be done given the circumstances and given the ongoing outbreaks occurring in Australia.

Rugby globally will take a long time to recover from this like other sports and potentially we may have already seen peak rugby given the pastimes and pursuits of Millennials, Gen-Z and Gen Alpha.
Those reasons alone highlight why the OP question is completely stupid.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Fat Old Git »

I'm grateful they were able to out these competitions together, and have enjoyed them. But they are what they are.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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You can’t rate a competition that highly when at outset it was likely that one or more teams would win every game and not make the final. I would put it on a par with winning a pre-season tournament rather than any of the other Super Rugby/Super Rugby Aotearoa/Super Rugby Australia iterations.

If scheduling permitted, a week between tournaments and semi finals would have been an improvement. My worry is that the need to chase bonus points and points differential could be the worst preparation for test rugby.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Ali's Choice »

Fat Old Git wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:02 am I'm grateful they were able to out these competitions together, and have enjoyed them. But they are what they are.
Don't get me wrong, I am greatly looking forward to a proper TT SR comp, where NZ and Australian teams play each other. Throw in the two new teams and I'm super excited for 2022. But a five round tournament where NZ teams only play Australian teams cannot really compare to some of the other versions of SR that we've had. That's no-one's fault, it just is what it is.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

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JB1981 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:04 am You can’t rate a competition that highly when at outset it was likely that one or more teams would win every game and not make the final. I would put it on a par with winning a pre-season tournament rather than any of the other Super Rugby/Super Rugby Aotearoa/Super Rugby Australia iterations.
Yep, good call. This comp does have a pre season/post season friendly tournament vibe to it :thumbup:
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by JPNZ »

JB1981 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:04 am You can’t rate a competition that highly when at outset it was likely that one or more teams would win every game and not make the final. I would put it on a par with winning a pre-season tournament rather than any of the other Super Rugby/Super Rugby Aotearoa/Super Rugby Australia iterations.

If scheduling permitted, a week between tournaments and semi finals would have been an improvement. My worry is that the need to chase bonus points and points differential could be the worst preparation for test rugby.
100%

Any tournament that doesn’t have each team playing each other is hardly a competition.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Pakia Pakia »

JB1981 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:04 am My worry is that the need to chase bonus points and points differential could be the worst preparation for test rugby.
The team leading the comp has been the most conservative attacking team out of the New Zealand teams and has the best defensive record.

Rather than scoring bonus points by scoring 4 tries, in this competition you must score 3 more tries than the other team to get a bonus point. In the past both teams could score 4 tries and both teams could earn bonus points. Not any more. This bonus point system rewards defence much more than in the past.

The Crusaders have the best attacking record but they have been penalised in this competition by the bonus point system for poor defence. They have the worst defensive record of any New Zealand team in this competition.
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Re: How will winning Trans Tasman SR compare to winning other Super Rugby titles?

Post by Pakia Pakia »

JPNZ wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:18 am Any tournament that doesn’t have each team playing each other is hardly a competition.
That was already case prior to Covid-19 for a couple of seasons. Are you saying that the Crusaders trophies in Super Rugby under Scott Robertson are less worthy?
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