Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

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MrDominator
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Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

Chris Giles spitting facts in the FT:
Ireland has an important choice to make. Should it stick with its 12.5 per cent corporate tax rate in the face of mounting international opposition? Or should it fall in line with the G7 agreement and set a rate of at least 15 per cent, calling time on a tax strategy the deputy prime minister on Wednesday said was “a huge part of [Ireland’s] economic model”?

The low-rate Irish corporate tax regime started in the 1980s with a 10 per cent rate for manufacturing and a special regime for financial services in Dublin, but it was extended nationwide to create a 12.5 per cent corporate rate on all trading profits from 2003.

There is no doubt the corporate tax system has had big consequences. A large number of US companies have allowed themselves to be taken over by Irish ones in order to change their location for corporate tax purposes. More have located intellectual property and other intangible assets, and leased aircraft in the country to take advantage of the generous tax rules.

Tax avoidance activities are now so pervasive that Irish national income figures have become nonsensical. Gross domestic product is meaningless as an indicator of living standards because the profits of foreign companies, which flow to people outside Ireland, are huge and included in the statistics. The national Central Statistics Office has had to devise a new measure, “modified gross national income”, to find a more useful gauge of economic performance.

The risk for Ireland in joining the effort to end corporate tax avoidance is that it will discover that its success since the 1990s has solely been down to an artificially low rate sucking in footloose business from abroad. But if this success was purely artificial, it is under threat in any case. The US can impose a global minimum corporate tax for its companies unilaterally and the Biden administration is poised for action.

In these circumstances, it is in Dublin’s interests to put its money where its mouth is and raise its corporate tax rate, putting its faith in the skills, not the luck, of the Irish. Otherwise it will reinforce the impression that when it comes to tax, it is a pariah nation seeking to steal revenues from its two biggest allies, the US and the EU. For Ireland, that would be futile and dangerous.
https://www.ft.com/content/4ae5d503-c9c ... 73bd1da6b4
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Duff Paddy »

<1 page
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

3 pages easy, baby.

Nothing gets the paddies going like their 'everyone loves us' schtick being questioned by the international paper of record :smug:
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Duff Paddy »

15% is never gonna happen, it is being torpedoed in the state because it’s a frankly stupid idea. Have a word with Rishi will ya.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by mabunch78 »

:lol:
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by bimboman »

Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:53 pm 15% is never gonna happen, it is being torpedoed in the state because it’s a frankly stupid idea. Have a word with Rishi will ya.

The veto on tax will be gone in this EU Parliament. Maybe they’ll leave you be after that.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by bimboman »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Gynormus »

Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:53 pm 15% is never gonna happen, it is being torpedoed in the state because it’s a frankly stupid idea. Have a word with Rishi will ya.
The majority are not even paying 10%. Varadkars court case in Europe to defend Apple etc is just a joke 'They pay enough'?

Some €240bn in missed tax probably more
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Gynormus »

bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
Or the Pharma. Consider the multiple billions in FX, money Markets etc they engage in daily within the IFSC?
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Gynormus »

bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
How will or why would USA 'Top It Up On Their Side'? Clearly no idea of how this corp tax angle works & clearly further monies viz Caribbean territories.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
They are. It's the reason our fiscal returns are so high since the double Irish was done away with. If anything since we have enforced the 12.5% , the money coming in to the Revenue has been enormous
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Duff Paddy »

Gynormus wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:59 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:53 pm 15% is never gonna happen, it is being torpedoed in the state because it’s a frankly stupid idea. Have a word with Rishi will ya.
The majority are not even paying 10%. Varadkars court case in Europe to defend Apple etc is just a joke 'They pay enough'?

Some €240bn in missed tax probably more
That tax was never due to us. It’s American money and it will be repatriated
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by nardol »

Gynormus wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:02 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
How will or why would USA 'Top It Up On Their Side'? Clearly no idea of how this corp tax angle works & clearly further monies viz Caribbean territories.
And why does it sit on a caribbean island???

Go on.... you're almost there.... one further jump
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by nardol »

PS

I really hope said island isn't a UK crown dep or overseas territory or any other names you brits give to the names of places set up to keep cameron and blowjo wealthy.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by bimboman »

Gynormus wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:02 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
How will or why would USA 'Top It Up On Their Side'? Clearly no idea of how this corp tax angle works & clearly further monies viz Caribbean territories.


If the tax agreement proposed at the G7 goes ahead then the home country will take extra corporation tax up too 15% on the amount taxed lower abroad.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by bimboman »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:10 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
They are. It's the reason our fiscal returns are so high since the double Irish was done away with. If anything since we have enforced the 12.5% , the money coming in to the Revenue has been enormous

No they’re not. They’re all paying less.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by bimboman »

nardol wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:39 pm PS

I really hope said island isn't a UK crown dep or overseas territory or any other names you brits give to the names of places set up to keep cameron and blowjo wealthy.

Probably the Dutch Antilles.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:48 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:10 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
They are. It's the reason our fiscal returns are so high since the double Irish was done away with. If anything since we have enforced the 12.5% , the money coming in to the Revenue has been enormous

No they’re not. They’re all paying less.
We're getting the tax from somewhere. Our returns have been massive. We were the only EU country who grew last year. That was from the corp tax from the multinationals
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by bimboman »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:50 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:48 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:10 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
They are. It's the reason our fiscal returns are so high since the double Irish was done away with. If anything since we have enforced the 12.5% , the money coming in to the Revenue has been enormous

No they’re not. They’re all paying less.
We're getting the tax from somewhere. Our returns have been massive. We were the only EU country who grew last year. That was from the corp tax from the multinationals


Indeed, they push absolutely gazillions through the pipe, that doesn’t mean it’s being taxed at the full published rate.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by nardol »

Go on then, which irish EU HQed tech co is paying less?


Which one?


Which one is even paying far off the 12.5% effective tax rate?
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Gynormus »

bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:46 pm
Gynormus wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:02 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm We'll stay at 12.5% and the US will top it up on their side


None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
How will or why would USA 'Top It Up On Their Side'? Clearly no idea of how this corp tax angle works & clearly further monies viz Caribbean territories.


If the tax agreement proposed at the G7 goes ahead then the home country will take extra corporation tax up too 15% on the amount taxed lower abroad.
No the statement was inferring that the USA will somehow 'Top it up'
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Anonymous 1 »

bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:52 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:50 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:48 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:10 pm
bimboman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:58 pm



None of the big Techs are paying 12.5%. :lol:
They are. It's the reason our fiscal returns are so high since the double Irish was done away with. If anything since we have enforced the 12.5% , the money coming in to the Revenue has been enormous

No they’re not. They’re all paying less.
We're getting the tax from somewhere. Our returns have been massive. We were the only EU country who grew last year. That was from the corp tax from the multinationals


Indeed, they push absolutely gazillions through the pipe, that doesn’t mean it’s being taxed at the full published rate.
How do you know it isn't ?
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

Bimbo is right:
One of the most contested aspects of Ireland's economy is the aggregate "effective tax rate" (ETR) of Ireland's corporate tax regime. The Irish State refutes tax haven labels as unfair criticism of its low, but legitimate, 12.5% Irish corporate tax rate,[131][132] which it defends as being the effective tax rate ("ETR").[133] Independent studies show that Ireland's aggregate effective corporate tax rate is between 2.2% to 4.5% (depending on assumptions made).[134][135][136] This lower aggregate effective tax rate is consistent with the individual effective tax rates of US multinationals in Ireland,[32][80][137][138][139] as well as the IP-based BEPS tools openly marketed by the main Irish tax-law firms, in the IFSC, with ETRs of 0–2.5% (see "effective tax rate").[77][78][92][97]
Thieves.

Shameless, unconscionable thieves, stealing money from the hands of German grannies and Bulgarian babushkas.

:thumbdown:
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

If those <5% tax rates are increased to 15%, the Irish economy will collapse like a house of cards.

It's a potemkin economy.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by nardol »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:08 pm Bimbo is right:
One of the most contested aspects of Ireland's economy is the aggregate "effective tax rate" (ETR) of Ireland's corporate tax regime. The Irish State refutes tax haven labels as unfair criticism of its low, but legitimate, 12.5% Irish corporate tax rate,[131][132] which it defends as being the effective tax rate ("ETR").[133] Independent studies show that Ireland's aggregate effective corporate tax rate is between 2.2% to 4.5% (depending on assumptions made).[134][135][136] This lower aggregate effective tax rate is consistent with the individual effective tax rates of US multinationals in Ireland,[32][80][137][138][139] as well as the IP-based BEPS tools openly marketed by the main Irish tax-law firms, in the IFSC, with ETRs of 0–2.5% (see "effective tax rate").[77][78][92][97]
Thieves.

Shameless, unconscionable thieves, stealing money from the hands of German grannies and Bulgarian babushkas.

:thumbdown:
Year research conducted and covers??

I would suggest its when the Double dutch sandwich was still being allowed by the irish tax authorities. It has since been closed.

Point stands - if america stopped allowing corporates to hoard their cash offshore and only tax them when they bring it onshore 90% of the issues would disappear immediately.
Last edited by nardol on Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:10 pm If those <5% tax rates are increased to 15%, the Irish economy will collapse like a house of cards.

It's a potemkin economy.
Collapse because we'll be forced to take in more revenue?

Makes sense
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:13 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:10 pm If those <5% tax rates are increased to 15%, the Irish economy will collapse like a house of cards.

It's a potemkin economy.
Collapse because we'll be forced to take in more revenue?

Makes sense
Collapse because all the US multinationals will flee.

They're not there for the weather or food
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:14 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:13 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:10 pm If those <5% tax rates are increased to 15%, the Irish economy will collapse like a house of cards.

It's a potemkin economy.
Collapse because we'll be forced to take in more revenue?

Makes sense
Collapse because all the US multinationals will flee.

They're not there for the weather or food
They'll stay. They've built roots.

The issue for Ireland will be attracting new FDI
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:14 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:13 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:10 pm If those <5% tax rates are increased to 15%, the Irish economy will collapse like a house of cards.

It's a potemkin economy.
Collapse because we'll be forced to take in more revenue?

Makes sense
Collapse because all the US multinationals will flee.

They're not there for the weather or food
They'll stay. They've built roots.

The issue for Ireland will be attracting new FDI
If they cared about roots, they'd have stayed in their home country.

The $ is king for these lads
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:17 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:14 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:13 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:10 pm If those <5% tax rates are increased to 15%, the Irish economy will collapse like a house of cards.

It's a potemkin economy.
Collapse because we'll be forced to take in more revenue?

Makes sense
Collapse because all the US multinationals will flee.

They're not there for the weather or food
They'll stay. They've built roots.

The issue for Ireland will be attracting new FDI
If they cared about roots, they'd have stayed in their home country.

The $ is king for these lads
See you back here in 20 years so. You'll still be predicting our demise.

We'll find a way. We always do. 8)
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:19 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:17 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:14 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:13 pm

Collapse because we'll be forced to take in more revenue?

Makes sense
Collapse because all the US multinationals will flee.

They're not there for the weather or food
They'll stay. They've built roots.

The issue for Ireland will be attracting new FDI
If they cared about roots, they'd have stayed in their home country.

The $ is king for these lads
See you back here in 20 years so. You'll still be predicting our demise.

We'll find a way. We always do. 8)
Lad, your prosperity is a very recent thing. You were a basket-case for the first 70 years of independence - and could quite easily return that way
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:21 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:19 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:17 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:14 pm
Collapse because all the US multinationals will flee.

They're not there for the weather or food
They'll stay. They've built roots.

The issue for Ireland will be attracting new FDI
If they cared about roots, they'd have stayed in their home country.

The $ is king for these lads
See you back here in 20 years so. You'll still be predicting our demise.

We'll find a way. We always do. 8)
Lad, your prosperity is a very recent thing. You were a basket-case for the first 70 years of independence - and could quite easily return that way
Been explained plenty of times to you. I don't expect you to get it
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Leinsterman »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:23 pm Been explained plenty of times to you. I don't expect you to get it
No idea why you bother engaging with him :roll:
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

Leinsterman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:24 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:23 pm Been explained plenty of times to you. I don't expect you to get it
No idea why you bother engaging with him :roll:
Neither do i.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by MrDominator »

It never takes long before the micks start lashing out :lol:
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by towny »

:shock:

I genuinely thought Mr Dominator was an Irish multi taking the piss out of poms with a parody account. For years!!! I have laughed at many posts.

This is like finding out Alan Partridge is real.


p.s. Isn't it a bit weird how the English media is demanding that sovereign nations should follow the wishes of the collective, against their own best interests, because it's better off for everyone?

p.p.s. If Ireland is forced to raise their tax from 12.5% to 15%, will literally anything happen other than Ireland will take in a bit more company taxation revenue? Am I missing the joke? I'm keen to laugh at Irish people for literally any reason, but this seems like they're coming out on top and I don't like it.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by iarmhiman »

towny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm :shock:

I genuinely thought Mr Dominator was an Irish multi taking the piss out of poms with a parody account. For years!!! I have laughed at many posts.

This is like finding out Alan Partridge is real.


p.s. Isn't it a bit weird how the English media is demanding that sovereign nations should follow the wishes of the collective, against their own best interests, because it's better off for everyone?

p.p.s. If Ireland is forced to raise their tax from 12.5% to 15%, will literally anything happen other than Ireland will take in a bit more company taxation revenue? Am I missing the joke? I'm keen to laugh at Irish people for literally any reason, but this seems like they're coming out on top and I don't like it.
The narrative across the water commonly used is that if we raise our taxes at all, the US multinationals will leave Ireland and go to the UK instead. Bless them
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by towny »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:37 pm
towny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm :shock:

I genuinely thought Mr Dominator was an Irish multi taking the piss out of poms with a parody account. For years!!! I have laughed at many posts.

This is like finding out Alan Partridge is real.


p.s. Isn't it a bit weird how the English media is demanding that sovereign nations should follow the wishes of the collective, against their own best interests, because it's better off for everyone?

p.p.s. If Ireland is forced to raise their tax from 12.5% to 15%, will literally anything happen other than Ireland will take in a bit more company taxation revenue? Am I missing the joke? I'm keen to laugh at Irish people for literally any reason, but this seems like they're coming out on top and I don't like it.
The narrative across the water commonly used is that if we raise our taxes at all, the US multinationals will leave Ireland and go to the UK instead. Bless them
For 2.5%?
Okay. If they do I will laughing heartily at your misfortune. But sadly, I can’t imagine this will have a material effect.
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Re: Ireland a 'pariah nation of thieves'

Post by Anonymous 1 »

iarmhiman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:37 pm
towny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm :shock:

I genuinely thought Mr Dominator was an Irish multi taking the piss out of poms with a parody account. For years!!! I have laughed at many posts.

This is like finding out Alan Partridge is real.


p.s. Isn't it a bit weird how the English media is demanding that sovereign nations should follow the wishes of the collective, against their own best interests, because it's better off for everyone?

p.p.s. If Ireland is forced to raise their tax from 12.5% to 15%, will literally anything happen other than Ireland will take in a bit more company taxation revenue? Am I missing the joke? I'm keen to laugh at Irish people for literally any reason, but this seems like they're coming out on top and I don't like it.
The narrative across the water commonly used is that if we raise our taxes at all, the US multinationals will leave Ireland and go to the UK instead. Bless them
Are you making that up ?
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