Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire
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Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

A thread that will gain traction, I'm sure, when samples are re-tested years afetr the OLympics.

basically Russia si still banned and the USA seem to settinga record in the numeb rof mid-long distance athletes who piss red hot but claim their food was contiminated.

The latest is US record Shelby Houlihan. What's impressive here is having set numerous records in a sport you basically have to be thin (as a sudden late career developer), she is she is claiming her she eats dodgy fast food as part of her diet, the doping positive is fake news and she is blaming the Mexicans.....And I thought the Donald Trump era was gone?

Shelby Houlihan Tests Positive for Nandrolone, Banned from Track & Field for Four Years After Her CAS Appeal Is Unsuccessful
Houlihan, 28, will miss Olympic Trials & next two Olympics
By LetsRun.com
June 14, 2021

Shelby Houlihan, the US record holder in the women’s 1500 and 5000 meters, has been suspended from the sport of track and field for four years after testing positive for the banned substance nandrolone, it was announced today in a Zoom call with the media with Houlihan and her Bowerman Track Club coaches Jerry Schumacher and Shalane Flanagan.


Houlihan in happier times

Houlihan was notified of the positive test, which dated from a sample provided to the Athletics Integrity Unit in December 2020, in January and has spent the last five months appealing her case.


After the AIU informed Houlihan of her positive test, she was provisionally suspended, but the AIU neglected to charge her immediately. Believing herself to be innocent, and with the Olympic Trials looming in June, Houlihan hired a lawyer, Paul Greene, who pressed the AIU to charge her with a violation so that she could appeal her case before the Trials. Rather than go through the regular AIU appeal process, Houlihan’s team requested an emergency hearing from the Court of Arbitration of Sport to resolve the situation before the Trials. On June 11, one week before the Trials were due to start, she was informed by CAS that her appeal was unsuccessful and that her four-year ban had been upheld.

Houlihan’s only remaining course of action is to appeal the decision to the Swiss Federal Tribunal, but that process would take months and require hiring a Swiss lawyer.

Houlihan and her legal team argued that the nandrolone stemmed from pork in a burrito she had consumed the night before the test and provided a receipt and iPhone locator data to back up her explanation.

“In Shelby’s case, she ate a burrito about 10 hours before [her test] from a Mexican [food truck] that we concluded very, very early on that [the burrito] contained pig organ meat,” Greene said. “Pig organ meat is one of the sources for nandrolone. Ten hours before would have been perfect in terms of the timing of the level that was in Shelby’s system (5 ng/mL), which was an extremely low level.”

Houlihan also took a polygraph and even had her hair tested by a leading doping expert but none of that swayed CAS. The rationale behind the CAS decision isn’t known yet – only the verdict is out – the rationale is coming later.

Her coach Jerry Schumacher didn’t hold back in ripping the decision. “To the AIU and WADA. Shame on you. Shame on you for not caring about the truth. Shame on you for using athletes in a political chess match. You got it very wrong this time and that’s not OK. It’s not ok to be right 9 times out of 10 when you decide to execute someone’s athletic life and dreams. You don’t deserve this power,” said Schumacher.

Houlihan’s ban will rule her out of the Trials, which are set to begin on Friday in Eugene, Ore., and this year’s Olympics in Tokyo. She will also miss the next two World Championships (in Eugene in 2022 and Budapest in 2023) and the 2024 Olympics in Paris.


Shelby Houlihan at USAs in 2020.

Houlihan is the latest of a number of high-profile Americans to test positive for low levels of a banned substance and argue that the positive test was the result of contaminated food/medication. But unlike Ajee’ Wilson, Will Claye, and Brenda Martinez, whose cases were presided over by the US Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) — all of whom were cleared and assessed a “no-fault” finding — the Athletics Integrity Unit had jurisdiction in Houlihan’s case. Jarrion Lawson, another prominent American track athlete, also tested positive for a low level of a contaminated substance and, like Houlihan, his case was presided over by the AIU. He was initially handed a four-year ban and served almost two years of it before CAS overturned the decision and cleared his name.

Here is a brief summary of each of those cases:

2017: The US record holder in the 800 meters, Ajee’ Wilson, tested positive for zeranol but wasn’t suspended after USADA ruled that the zeranol likely stemmed from contaminated meat.

2018: Jarrion Lawson, the silver medalist in the long jump at the 2017 World Championships, was suspended by the AIU for testing positive for the steroid trenbolone. He was forced to miss almost two years of competition, but was ultimately cleared after a Court of Arbitration for Sport panel overturned his ban.

2018: Will Claye, a three-time Olympic medalist in the long/triple jump, tested positive for clenbuterol but avoided a suspension after USADA believed his explanation of eating contaminated meat.

2020: Brenda Martinez, the 2013 World Championship silver medalist in the 800 meters, tested positive for hydrochlorothiazide, a diuretic which can be used as a masking agent. USADA issued a no-fault finding and Martinez avoided a ban after she proved the hydrochlorothiazide stemmed from a contaminated antidepressant medication she was taking.

“I feel completely devastated, lost, broken, angry, confused and betrayed by the very sport that I’ve loved and poured myself into just to see how good I was,” Houlihan said in a prepared statement.

“I want to be very clear. I have never taken any performance enhancing substances. And that includes that of which I am being accused. I believe in the sport and pushing your body to the limit just to see where the limit is. I’m not interested in cheating. I don’t do this for the accolades, money, or for people to know my name. I do this because I love it. I have so much fun doing it and it’s always the best part of my day.”

The Houlihan news capped an awful day for the Bowerman Track Club, as just minutes before her announcement, seven-time US steeple champion and 2016 Olympic silver medalist Evan Jager announced he will not be competing at the Trials.

Quick Take: The timing for Houlihan could not have been worse

Normally a first doping ban costs you one Olympics. Because of COVID-19 and the three-year gap between the 2020 and 2024 Olympics, Houlihan will now miss two.

Even if she is ultimately cleared by the Swiss Federal Tribunal, which is a really long shot, she will miss her best shot at an Olympic medal. At 28, and coming off three terrific years, Houlihan is in her absolute prime. Even if she somehow manages to get her ban overturned and make it back for Eugene 2022, she will never be able to get this year back. She could still medal in 2024, but her chances at age 31 will be smaller than they were at age 28.

Moreover, things were lining up in 2021 for Houlihan to earn her first Olympic/World Championship medal. Houlihan finished 4th in the 2019 World Championships in the 1500 in an American record of 3:54.99. One of the women who beat her in that race, world champion Sifan Hassan, looks likely to skip the 1500 in Tokyo in favor of the 5k/10k double. The bronze medalist in that race, Gudaf Tsegay, ran the 5000 meters at the Ethiopian Trials and may not be running the 1500 at the Olympics either. The stars were aligning for Houlihan to earn a medal, possibly gold.

“She just might be the best 1500m runner in the world this year, but we will never get the opportunity to find out,” her coach Jerry Schumacher said. “And that’s a tragedy.”

And if Houlihan’s ban is not overturned, she will have missed the four most valuable years of her career: a span with two Olympics and two World Championships, one of which will be contested on home soil.

Of course, if you believe Houlihan is guilty, you would argue the timing could not have been better.

Quick Take: Whether you believe Houlihan, Wilson and/or Lawson or whether you don’t, the system needs to change

If the US food supply is tainted, then WADA and the AIU need to change the level needed to trigger a positive test or mandate that athletes not eat certain foods — or tell them if they do eat those foods and test positive, they are out of luck. What we have going on right now isn’t good for anyone. We can’t have the stars of the sport testing positive and then sometimes getting banned and sometimes not.

If you believe the athletes, then three different athletes did the same thing — went out to eat and had three different results. One missed no time (Ajee Wilson), one basically lost two years (Jarrion Lawson) and one seems poised to miss four.

We are certain of one thing, having people test positive and then be forced to put their careers on hold for months/years only to clear them later as was the case with Lawson is terribly unfair.
At least one of her coaches were also coached by one Alberto Salazar..........The current body of evidence as associations to my mind certainly doesn't look likely in my eyes.
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sorCrer
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by sorCrer »

Mo Farah qualified yet?
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eldanielfire
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

sorCrer wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:42 pm Mo Farah qualified yet?
Nope. Apparently failed recently and now trying again.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by blindcider »

I'm not saying whether I think her story is true or false but as an athlete you are responsible for what you put in your body. Eating meat from a street vendor seems like a risky option to me.

The keeping the receipt is something that does go in her favour but only if she regularly does this in order to trace back origins of things, if its one receipt then it is a bit too convenient a story

I know several pro athletes who keep portions of every supplement they take in case of contamination just in case, supplement companies have often been identified as a source of contamination in the past so its not impossible that contamination is the case. Contamination has certainly been used and accepted as an excuse a few times by different agencies and then not accepted at other times so some consistency would be nice.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

blindcider wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:56 pm I'm not saying whether I think her story is true or false but as an athlete you are responsible for what you put in your body. Eating meat from a street vendor seems like a risky option to me.

The keeping the receipt is something that does go in her favour but only if she regularly does this in order to trace back origins of things, if its one receipt then it is a bit too convenient a story

I know several pro athletes who keep portions of every supplement they take in case of contamination just in case, supplement companies have often been identified as a source of contamination in the past so its not impossible that contamination is the case. Contamination has certainly been used and accepted as an excuse a few times by different agencies and then not accepted at other times so some consistency would be nice.
All points that are reasonable. What goes against her excuse also is in the form of her life she shoves down dodgy junk food in the part of an off-season in track where the gym is most important. Late developer improvers tend to have changed their life-styles to improve. Numerous UK athletes in distance running, have spoken about the mental health issues they have had just trying to keep their weight in competitive order. Some have even quit the sport. Also a random van vendor. On other forums some are pointing out it's unlikely to be foreign meat of origin and even if the drug is used on pigs, would still unlikely have so much it meets threshold criteria.

Also CAS have reduced or overturned a number of athletes who have made similar claims. They haven't released the details, but your piss must be red hot and your excuses really implausible to not even get a reduction for mitigating factors these days.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by Flyin Ryan »

blindcider wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:56 pmI know several pro athletes who keep portions of every supplement they take in case of contamination just in case, supplement companies have often been identified as a source of contamination in the past so its not impossible that contamination is the case. Contamination has certainly been used and accepted as an excuse a few times by different agencies and then not accepted at other times so some consistency would be nice.
There's also athletes that test positive and then go testing every supplement bottle under the sun hoping that one has it. And then when they do find it, parade it in front of the media.

Image

Regardless, I'm pretty confident everyone winning Olympic medals in athletics is on something performance-enhancing. Drug testing is not about ensuring drug-free sport, it's about giving the impression to the public that sport is drug-free. If everyone's lying, who cares as long as the public don't know.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:04 pm
blindcider wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:56 pm I'm not saying whether I think her story is true or false but as an athlete you are responsible for what you put in your body. Eating meat from a street vendor seems like a risky option to me.

The keeping the receipt is something that does go in her favour but only if she regularly does this in order to trace back origins of things, if its one receipt then it is a bit too convenient a story

I know several pro athletes who keep portions of every supplement they take in case of contamination just in case, supplement companies have often been identified as a source of contamination in the past so its not impossible that contamination is the case. Contamination has certainly been used and accepted as an excuse a few times by different agencies and then not accepted at other times so some consistency would be nice.
All points that are reasonable. What goes against her excuse also is in the form of her life she shoves down dodgy junk food in the part of an off-season in track where the gym is most important. Late developer improvers tend to have changed their life-styles to improve. Numerous UK athletes in distance running, have spoken about the mental health issues they have had just trying to keep their weight in competitive order. Some have even quit the sport. Also a random van vendor. On other forums some are pointing out it's unlikely to be foreign meat of origin and even if the drug is used on pigs, would still unlikely have so much it meets threshold criteria.

Also CAS have reduced or overturned a number of athletes who have made similar claims. They haven't released the details, but your piss must be red hot and your excuses really implausible to not even get a reduction for mitigating factors these days.
the normal process is it will get overturned a couple of years into the sentence.

Your diet point is a good one too although the diets of some pro-athletes can be a bit surprising in how much rubbish they eat, not likely for a track athlete though where weight is a key factor
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by ukjim »

eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:55 pm
sorCrer wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:42 pm Mo Farah qualified yet?
Nope. Apparently failed recently and now trying again.
hes a vegan these days that would explain it I guess.

needs more "tacos"
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

blindcider wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:01 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:04 pm
blindcider wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:56 pm I'm not saying whether I think her story is true or false but as an athlete you are responsible for what you put in your body. Eating meat from a street vendor seems like a risky option to me.

The keeping the receipt is something that does go in her favour but only if she regularly does this in order to trace back origins of things, if its one receipt then it is a bit too convenient a story

I know several pro athletes who keep portions of every supplement they take in case of contamination just in case, supplement companies have often been identified as a source of contamination in the past so its not impossible that contamination is the case. Contamination has certainly been used and accepted as an excuse a few times by different agencies and then not accepted at other times so some consistency would be nice.
All points that are reasonable. What goes against her excuse also is in the form of her life she shoves down dodgy junk food in the part of an off-season in track where the gym is most important. Late developer improvers tend to have changed their life-styles to improve. Numerous UK athletes in distance running, have spoken about the mental health issues they have had just trying to keep their weight in competitive order. Some have even quit the sport. Also a random van vendor. On other forums some are pointing out it's unlikely to be foreign meat of origin and even if the drug is used on pigs, would still unlikely have so much it meets threshold criteria.

Also CAS have reduced or overturned a number of athletes who have made similar claims. They haven't released the details, but your piss must be red hot and your excuses really implausible to not even get a reduction for mitigating factors these days.
the normal process is it will get overturned a couple of years into the sentence.

Your diet point is a good one too although the diets of some pro-athletes can be a bit surprising in how much rubbish they eat, not likely for a track athlete though where weight is a key factor
Even if the distance track athlete (generally some Sprinters do get away with less than optimal diets) does indulge occasionally, it's usually planned into their schedule, not a random dodgy vendor the night before s surprise dope test. Broadly speaking I've read a few posts over the years that suggests even in the CAS rulings where they accept "tainted food" it should be Scientifically hugely improbable that it could trigger a positive doping test passing the thresholds needed. Trace amounts are credible on occasion of course.

Some speculation/reading around from how WADA works on my part; WADA are much better these days at spotting patterns when there are small amounts of banned substances in samples and red flags get raised. Hence why in the whereabouts system suspicious athletes, who may or may not have credible reasons for trace amounts of substances, get targeted from the data. Often when samples are from seasons with improved performances. Hence the data is used to identify and surprise test them when they are mostly likely possibly would be doping. IMO this is art of the reason why there are more athletes caught these days.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:04 pm
blindcider wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:56 pm I'm not saying whether I think her story is true or false but as an athlete you are responsible for what you put in your body. Eating meat from a street vendor seems like a risky option to me.

The keeping the receipt is something that does go in her favour but only if she regularly does this in order to trace back origins of things, if its one receipt then it is a bit too convenient a story

I know several pro athletes who keep portions of every supplement they take in case of contamination just in case, supplement companies have often been identified as a source of contamination in the past so its not impossible that contamination is the case. Contamination has certainly been used and accepted as an excuse a few times by different agencies and then not accepted at other times so some consistency would be nice.
All points that are reasonable. What goes against her excuse also is in the form of her life she shoves down dodgy junk food in the part of an off-season in track where the gym is most important. Late developer improvers tend to have changed their life-styles to improve. Numerous UK athletes in distance running, have spoken about the mental health issues they have had just trying to keep their weight in competitive order. Some have even quit the sport. Also a random van vendor. On other forums some are pointing out it's unlikely to be foreign meat of origin and even if the drug is used on pigs, would still unlikely have so much it meets threshold criteria.

Also CAS have reduced or overturned a number of athletes who have made similar claims. They haven't released the details, but your piss must be red hot and your excuses really implausible to not even get a reduction for mitigating factors these days.
Surely the off-season is the one time in the year she would get to eat junk food. She can have a pork burrito (no cheese or sour cream please) in December, knowing that she'll have worked all that carnitas weight off by the time the competitive races come around in the summer.

I can definitely see a situation where she goes for a burrito with friends in the evening, and then in the morning gets a knock on the door from the out-of-competition testers. And that's probably when she went through the pockets of her jeans from the night before and dug out the receipt from Danberto's just in case.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

DOB wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:28 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:04 pm
blindcider wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:56 pm I'm not saying whether I think her story is true or false but as an athlete you are responsible for what you put in your body. Eating meat from a street vendor seems like a risky option to me.

The keeping the receipt is something that does go in her favour but only if she regularly does this in order to trace back origins of things, if its one receipt then it is a bit too convenient a story

I know several pro athletes who keep portions of every supplement they take in case of contamination just in case, supplement companies have often been identified as a source of contamination in the past so its not impossible that contamination is the case. Contamination has certainly been used and accepted as an excuse a few times by different agencies and then not accepted at other times so some consistency would be nice.
All points that are reasonable. What goes against her excuse also is in the form of her life she shoves down dodgy junk food in the part of an off-season in track where the gym is most important. Late developer improvers tend to have changed their life-styles to improve. Numerous UK athletes in distance running, have spoken about the mental health issues they have had just trying to keep their weight in competitive order. Some have even quit the sport. Also a random van vendor. On other forums some are pointing out it's unlikely to be foreign meat of origin and even if the drug is used on pigs, would still unlikely have so much it meets threshold criteria.

Also CAS have reduced or overturned a number of athletes who have made similar claims. They haven't released the details, but your piss must be red hot and your excuses really implausible to not even get a reduction for mitigating factors these days.
Surely the off-season is the one time in the year she would get to eat junk food. She can have a pork burrito (no cheese or sour cream please) in December, knowing that she'll have worked all that carnitas weight off by the time the competitive races come around in the summer.
September after the athletics season? Yes quite plausibly. In December preparing for indoor track season in January? Unlikely. Likewise we've known for a long time most doping occurs in off season for strength benefits. It also goes with the fact she's a "late bloomer", coaches worked with someone currently suspended for doping violations. Add in they also claiemd they ahve never heard of this eprformance enhancings uvstance

I can definitely see a situation where she goes for a burrito with friends in the evening, and then in the morning gets a knock on the door from the out-of-competition testers. And that's probably when she went through the pockets of her jeans from the night before and dug out the receipt from Danberto's just in case.
But less credible there was so much in that one portion it triggered a positive test with so much evidence that CAS, who have overturned or reduced several similar sentences recently, basically said "fudge no" on that one. That is a big red flag.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:22 pm
But less credible there was so much in that one portion it triggered a positive test with so much evidence that CAS, who have overturned or reduced several similar sentences recently, basically said "fudge no" on that one. That is a big red flag.
There are many cases of poppy seeds being at the center of failed opioid test, quite a few have resulted in new born children been taken away from their mother. - most seem to have been cleared up after a few days. - Apparently it is down to 1 in a 100,0000 seeds that cause a false positive. - So it is possible for food to give a false positive.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by Toilet Duck »

I think we should let them use whatever they want, it's entertainment and I want to see freaks and mutants doing shamazing things. For me. To watch.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

msp. wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:37 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:22 pm
But less credible there was so much in that one portion it triggered a positive test with so much evidence that CAS, who have overturned or reduced several similar sentences recently, basically said "fudge no" on that one. That is a big red flag.
There are many cases of poppy seeds being at the center of failed opioid test, quite a few have resulted in new born children been taken away from their mother. - most seem to have been cleared up after a few days. - Apparently it is down to 1 in a 100,0000 seeds that cause a false positive. - So it is possible for food to give a false positive.
Poppy Seeds is certainly a rare exception in that though. Two poppy seed bagels can trigger a doubtful negative. But that is a case of a natural substrate breaking down to it's processed form. This is different, no one is doubting she ingested the drug. Intentional doping or accidental ingestion is the argument. But as I pointed out, this doesn't happy easily happen with supposed meat and this drug where it will certainly appear in lower amounts. These tests often require thresholds. She is essentially saying her burrito gave her such a high volume of a performance enhancing drug drug neither WADA nor CAS can believe her.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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I am suspicious of the woman who recently ran the second fastest 100m ever. 10.63 or something like that. Flojo just seemed like a pinup for doping, so anyone who makes it close to her is going to seem very suss.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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Just let them. I’d love to see someone do the 100m in 5 seconds, roided out of their minds and exploding as they cross the line.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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not_english wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:58 pm I am suspicious of the woman who recently ran the second fastest 100m ever. 10.63 or something like that. Flojo just seemed like a pinup for doping, so anyone who makes it close to her is going to seem very suss.
Shelly-Ann Frazer-Price does have a doping ban previously. For pain meds after dental work so she could race I think. Given to her on the day by her coach. Short ban for it just being pain medication.

Now that may seem innocent enough, but the pain meds were oxycodone, apparently for cancer treatment or serious operations and the question is how does a coach get those have on them casually at a race meeting?
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by towny »

Flyin Ryan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:00 pm
Regardless, I'm pretty confident everyone winning Olympic medals in athletics is on something performance-enhancing. Drug testing is not about ensuring drug-free sport, it's about giving the impression to the public that sport is drug-free. If everyone's lying, who cares as long as the public don't know.
If lots of busted dopers were 'late developers', which is sited as circumstantial proof of their doping, do you suppose that they were just the last to start cheating? I mean, if everyone is on it, then no one should be able to improve from average to spectacular unless they were the last around to hit the juice?

Or is it possible, that everyone isn't on it?
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by Glaston »

Paid Remainer Schill

Doing down US Meat Industry to damage trade deals





:lol:

Seriously if you could get such high levels of animal steroids from eating one meal, then every Irish athlete in the 80's would have failed a drug test
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 pm
not_english wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:58 pm I am suspicious of the woman who recently ran the second fastest 100m ever. 10.63 or something like that. Flojo just seemed like a pinup for doping, so anyone who makes it close to her is going to seem very suss.
Shelly-Ann Frazer-Price does have a doping ban previously. For pain meds after dental work so she could race I think. Given to her on the day by her coach. Short ban for it just being pain medication.

Now that may seem innocent enough, but the pain meds were oxycodone, apparently for cancer treatment or serious operations and the question is how does a coach get those have on them casually at a race meeting?
We had lads handing out oxycodone, Percocet, Vicodin and other pain meds before rugby games all the time throughout the 00’s. I don’t think you understand how easy some of these meds are to get hold of in America. But you must have read up on how heavily they are marketed, like the whole pharmaceutical industry.

I think a more serious question is why is her coach providing meds for her that her dentist didn’t see fit to prescribe.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

DOB wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:45 pm

We had lads handing out oxycodone, Percocet, Vicodin and other pain meds before rugby games all the time throughout the 00’s. I don’t think you understand how easy some of these meds are to get hold of in America. But you must have read up on how heavily they are marketed, like the whole pharmaceutical industry.

I think a more serious question is why is her coach providing meds for her that her dentist didn’t see fit to prescribe.
Very true. But also if even very easy to get, a coach who can and does get hold of drugs' they aren't supposed to (and lots of PEDs are easy to get, even steroids), why did he have them and have them on him anyway?

It's a story I've neither convinced entirely of guilt or innocence. I lean towards innocent but I wouldn't bet anything on it.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 pm
not_english wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:58 pm I am suspicious of the woman who recently ran the second fastest 100m ever. 10.63 or something like that. Flojo just seemed like a pinup for doping, so anyone who makes it close to her is going to seem very suss.
Shelly-Ann Frazer-Price does have a doping ban previously. For pain meds after dental work so she could race I think. Given to her on the day by her coach. Short ban for it just being pain medication.

Now that may seem innocent enough, but the pain meds were oxycodone, apparently for cancer treatment or serious operations and the question is how does a coach get those have on them casually at a race meeting?
I would not describe oxycodone as performance enhancing.

You might have noticed that opiates are piss easy to get in the USA and there's a big scandal about it.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Russ Tucker udnerstand smore than most on doping in sport lends his thoughts:

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/stat ... o46x38.png

He basically says for CAS to not reduce the offence by any amount and keep her guilty verdict the whole way, she just have been pissing fire so hot that contaminated meat couldn't possibly explain it.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

dinsdale wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm

I would not describe oxycodone as performance enhancing.

You might have noticed that opiates are piss easy to get in the USA and there's a big scandal about it.
Neither did I. But it doesn't matter it's a banned substance.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:04 am
dinsdale wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm

I would not describe oxycodone as performance enhancing.

You might have noticed that opiates are piss easy to get in the USA and there's a big scandal about it.
Neither did I. But it doesn't matter it's a banned substance.
I'm not questioning the ban however this is a rare occasion where the proffered explanation might actually be true - unlike the other 99.9% made up BS that athletes and coaches come up with.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

dinsdale wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:00 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:04 am
dinsdale wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm

I would not describe oxycodone as performance enhancing.

You might have noticed that opiates are piss easy to get in the USA and there's a big scandal about it.
Neither did I. But it doesn't matter it's a banned substance.
I'm not questioning the ban however this is a rare occasion where the proffered explanation might actually be true - unlike the other 99.9% made up BS that athletes and coaches come up with.
Rare? Have you seen how many athletes have used the "contaminated food" excuse?

As Ross Tucker pointed out, if CAS won't even reduce the ban due to mitigating, let alone reverse it, the evidence must be strong.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

dinsdale wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 pm
not_english wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:58 pm I am suspicious of the woman who recently ran the second fastest 100m ever. 10.63 or something like that. Flojo just seemed like a pinup for doping, so anyone who makes it close to her is going to seem very suss.
Shelly-Ann Frazer-Price does have a doping ban previously. For pain meds after dental work so she could race I think. Given to her on the day by her coach. Short ban for it just being pain medication.

Now that may seem innocent enough, but the pain meds were oxycodone, apparently for cancer treatment or serious operations and the question is how does a coach get those have on them casually at a race meeting?
I would not describe oxycodone as performance enhancing.

You might have noticed that opiates are piss easy to get in the USA and there's a big scandal about it.
If it lets you train through an injury it’s surely performance enhancing
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Duff Paddy wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:04 pm
dinsdale wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 pm
not_english wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:58 pm I am suspicious of the woman who recently ran the second fastest 100m ever. 10.63 or something like that. Flojo just seemed like a pinup for doping, so anyone who makes it close to her is going to seem very suss.
Shelly-Ann Frazer-Price does have a doping ban previously. For pain meds after dental work so she could race I think. Given to her on the day by her coach. Short ban for it just being pain medication.

Now that may seem innocent enough, but the pain meds were oxycodone, apparently for cancer treatment or serious operations and the question is how does a coach get those have on them casually at a race meeting?
I would not describe oxycodone as performance enhancing.

You might have noticed that opiates are piss easy to get in the USA and there's a big scandal about it.
If it lets you train through an injury it’s surely performance enhancing
Good point.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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A good twitter thread about how carefully worded from Shelby Houlihan and her coaches statements were, to not lie but make you think what the truth is:

https://twitter.com/WillDGeoghegan/stat ... o46x38.png

Note that Houilhan was 250% over the doping threshold and is trying to say it was an accident :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by dinsdale »

eldanielfire wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:03 pm
dinsdale wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:00 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:04 am
dinsdale wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm

I would not describe oxycodone as performance enhancing.

You might have noticed that opiates are piss easy to get in the USA and there's a big scandal about it.
Neither did I. But it doesn't matter it's a banned substance.
I'm not questioning the ban however this is a rare occasion where the proffered explanation might actually be true - unlike the other 99.9% made up BS that athletes and coaches come up with.
Rare? Have you seen how many athletes have used the "contaminated food" excuse?

As Ross Tucker pointed out, if CAS won't even reduce the ban due to mitigating, let alone reverse it, the evidence must be strong.
I was referring to the 'oxycodone as a pain med' excuse.

The 'contaminated food' defence has been the go-to bullshit defence for years. I assume that athletes find out what obscure compounds might possibly be used in food & supplements and then dope like a bastard with those and pull out the oven ready excuse when they overdo it.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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dinsdale wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:17 pm
I was referring to the 'oxycodone as a pain med' excuse.
No probs :thumbup:

The 'contaminated food' defence has been the go-to bullshit defence for years. I assume that athletes find out what obscure compounds might possibly be used in food & supplements and then dope like a bastard with those and pull out the oven ready excuse when they overdo it.
I also assume that Athletes go to the same lawyers who specalise in doping in sport, so they get the same playbook stuff from them.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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Didn't realise Shelly-Ann Frazer-Price was also 34 years old. That is pretty late to suddenly record your fastest ever time.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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Flyin Ryan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:00 pm Regardless, I'm pretty confident everyone winning Olympic medals in athletics is on something performance-enhancing. Drug testing is not about ensuring drug-free sport, it's about giving the impression to the public that sport is drug-free. If everyone's lying, who cares as long as the public don't know.
Hammer, nail, head.

They're all on shit. Except of course female New Zealanders who are built like David Pocock. They are obviously clean. The rest of them, they are all on something, or have done something in the past.

Testing is notoriously expensive, unreliable and easily beatable. It's a wonder they catch anyone really. But it does at least ensure that they're not all completely taking the piss and going bananas on everything under the sun then coming into competition pissing nuclear waste.

The contaminated food/supplement/whatever argument that is used so routinely is kind of hollow. Just imagine if it was accurate. Most of us are not Olympic athletes on Spartan diets, rigorously ensuring not to put anything remotely suspect in our body. 90% of the population would be failing drug tests if all it took was a bit of street food or a protein shake.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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Flyin Ryan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:00 pm There's also athletes that test positive and then go testing every supplement bottle under the sun hoping that one has it. And then when they do find it, parade it in front of the media.

Regardless, I'm pretty confident everyone winning Olympic medals in athletics is on something performance-enhancing. Drug testing is not about ensuring drug-free sport, it's about giving the impression to the public that sport is drug-free. If everyone's lying, who cares as long as the public don't know.
Testing for drugs is dumb. Let them have at it.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

AnkleTap wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:49 am
Flyin Ryan wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:00 pm There's also athletes that test positive and then go testing every supplement bottle under the sun hoping that one has it. And then when they do find it, parade it in front of the media.

Regardless, I'm pretty confident everyone winning Olympic medals in athletics is on something performance-enhancing. Drug testing is not about ensuring drug-free sport, it's about giving the impression to the public that sport is drug-free. If everyone's lying, who cares as long as the public don't know.
Testing for drugs is dumb. Let them have at it.
I have heard this argument but I don't like it. I can see the appeal of watching a bunch of super-human freak-shows stretching the boundaries what is possible as far as possible. But only as a novelty act.

Performance Enhancing drugs are dangerous and not something you'd want kids aspiring to in their role-models. All though that cat is already out of the bag somewhat thanks to the prevalence of roided-up action movie-stars.

As far as sports goes, in the end I'd rather watch the pure and natural version of what is possible anyway. Or as pure as possible.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:44 am
I have heard this argument but I don't like it. I can see the appeal of watching a bunch of super-human freak-shows stretching the boundaries what is possible as far as possible. But only as a novelty act.

Performance Enhancing drugs are dangerous and not something you'd want kids aspiring to in their role-models. All though that cat is already out of the bag somewhat thanks to the prevalence of roided-up action movie-stars.

As far as sports goes, in the end I'd rather watch the pure and natural version of what is possible anyway. Or as pure as possible.
Very much this. People like freak shows and they like the pinnacle of athletic performances. They don't necessarily like the former and latter together and the latter is far more popular and desirable in most people.

I do disagree they are all doping however as you assert above. Sure plenty aim to cheat the system, but that doesn't mean all are on it.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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eldanielfire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:44 am
I have heard this argument but I don't like it. I can see the appeal of watching a bunch of super-human freak-shows stretching the boundaries what is possible as far as possible. But only as a novelty act.

Performance Enhancing drugs are dangerous and not something you'd want kids aspiring to in their role-models. All though that cat is already out of the bag somewhat thanks to the prevalence of roided-up action movie-stars.

As far as sports goes, in the end I'd rather watch the pure and natural version of what is possible anyway. Or as pure as possible.
Very much this. People like freak shows and they like the pinnacle of athletic performances. They don't necessarily like the former and latter together and the latter is far more popular and desirable in most people.

I do disagree they are all doping however as you assert above. Sure plenty aim to cheat the system, but that doesn't mean all are on it.
There is differing levels of it too, It can be legal to take some banned substances under out of competition rules which can differ even within the same sport. There are also substances on the watch list which will likely be banned which caught Sharapova out. The TUE system is still open to abuse as well.

I'd like to see the rules simplified and made more consistent, in particular I'd like to see the Out of competition rules made more robust.

The biggest thing that needs to change IMO is the attitude towards sports catching dopers. Sports like Football and Rugby (and many others) that rarely catch anyone doing more than recreational drugs should be asked far more questions. Sports should be championed when they 'out' cheats and make it clear that you will be caught but at the moment never catching anyone gives a far falser impression of the extent of doping IMO
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

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blindcider wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:20 am
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:44 am
I have heard this argument but I don't like it. I can see the appeal of watching a bunch of super-human freak-shows stretching the boundaries what is possible as far as possible. But only as a novelty act.

Performance Enhancing drugs are dangerous and not something you'd want kids aspiring to in their role-models. All though that cat is already out of the bag somewhat thanks to the prevalence of roided-up action movie-stars.

As far as sports goes, in the end I'd rather watch the pure and natural version of what is possible anyway. Or as pure as possible.
Very much this. People like freak shows and they like the pinnacle of athletic performances. They don't necessarily like the former and latter together and the latter is far more popular and desirable in most people.

I do disagree they are all doping however as you assert above. Sure plenty aim to cheat the system, but that doesn't mean all are on it.
There is differing levels of it too, It can be legal to take some banned substances under out of competition rules which can differ even within the same sport. There are also substances on the watch list which will likely be banned which caught Sharapova out. The TUE system is still open to abuse as well.

I'd like to see the rules simplified and made more consistent, in particular I'd like to see the Out of competition rules made more robust.

The biggest thing that needs to change IMO is the attitude towards sports catching dopers. Sports like Football and Rugby (and many others) that rarely catch anyone doing more than recreational drugs should be asked far more questions. Sports should be championed when they 'out' cheats and make it clear that you will be caught but at the moment never catching anyone gives a far falser impression of the extent of doping IMO
I agree. In fact the TUE system is rather inconsistent and IMO quite frequently abused by "sports doctors".

I agree that certain team sports are probably got far more doping levels. There is quite a double standard mindset in some ways, people get angrier and more concerned about doping in individual sports than in team sports. I think for a variety of reasons, like people support teams for life and have that loyalty that blinds them to their won teams flaws (and therefore the flaws in the sport) while individual athletes come and go.

Also in team sports there is a perception is that "talent", skill and team work are what people watch for and believe what wins, despite the huge emphasis in the past few decades on strength, stamina, conditioning, fitness etc.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by Mog The Almighty »

eldanielfire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:44 am
I have heard this argument but I don't like it. I can see the appeal of watching a bunch of super-human freak-shows stretching the boundaries what is possible as far as possible. But only as a novelty act.

Performance Enhancing drugs are dangerous and not something you'd want kids aspiring to in their role-models. All though that cat is already out of the bag somewhat thanks to the prevalence of roided-up action movie-stars.

As far as sports goes, in the end I'd rather watch the pure and natural version of what is possible anyway. Or as pure as possible.
Very much this. People like freak shows and they like the pinnacle of athletic performances. They don't necessarily like the former and latter together and the latter is far more popular and desirable in most people.

I do disagree they are all doping however as you assert above. Sure plenty aim to cheat the system, but that doesn't mean all are on it.
It's impossible to know for 100% certain. There's a common saying about drugs in sports is that the only person who knows for sure if they've ever taken anything is that person themselves. Not their wife, their best mate or the coach. And the reason that is a common saying is because it's so prevalent that someone "everyone knows is clean" gets busted or comes clean in the end. Anecdotal stories about, "I know that guy, he would never do that" are less than worthless.

But I'm getting side-tracked.

I don't think 100% of top-level athletes are roided-to-the-gills, no.

But I do think close to 100% of them have done something PED-related they should not have at some point in their athletic career. And then there's a further subset, I won't even guess what it might be, but a shit load higher than what most people seem to think, who are currently using, or have recently used "the real McCoy" (anabolic steroids, growth hormone, EPO, etc.) in significant dosages.

Within power sports like weight-lifting, sprinting, etc. I think you can bump that second category to be up close to the first one (i.e. nearly, if not 100%).

No, I don't have "proof". But the evidence is damning.
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Re: Olympic Sport Doping thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:42 am
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:44 am
I have heard this argument but I don't like it. I can see the appeal of watching a bunch of super-human freak-shows stretching the boundaries what is possible as far as possible. But only as a novelty act.

Performance Enhancing drugs are dangerous and not something you'd want kids aspiring to in their role-models. All though that cat is already out of the bag somewhat thanks to the prevalence of roided-up action movie-stars.

As far as sports goes, in the end I'd rather watch the pure and natural version of what is possible anyway. Or as pure as possible.
Very much this. People like freak shows and they like the pinnacle of athletic performances. They don't necessarily like the former and latter together and the latter is far more popular and desirable in most people.

I do disagree they are all doping however as you assert above. Sure plenty aim to cheat the system, but that doesn't mean all are on it.
It's impossible to know for 100% certain. There's a common saying about drugs in sports is that the only person who knows for sure if they've ever taken anything is that person themselves. Not their wife, their best mate or the coach. And the reason that is a common saying is because it's so prevalent that someone "everyone knows is clean" gets busted or comes clean in the end. Anecdotal stories about, "I know that guy, he would never do that" are less than worthless.

But I'm getting side-tracked.

I don't think 100% of top-level athletes are roided-to-the-gills, no.

But I do think close to 100% of them have done something PED-related they should not have at some point in their athletic career. And then there's a further subset, I won't even guess what it might be, but a shit load higher than what most people seem to think, who are currently using, or have recently used "the real McCoy" (anabolic steroids, growth hormone, EPO, etc.) in significant dosages.

Within power sports like weight-lifting, sprinting, etc. I think you can bump that second category to be up close to the first one (i.e. nearly, if not 100%).

No, I don't have "proof". But the evidence is damning.
I don't think this either. Plenty of people don't take even painkillers because they don't like that chemical shit. Plenty of sports people are like this too and in Rugby we even see plenty of elite athletes who are lazy (or thought to be lazy) as shit and reply on god given talent. Even under PEDs you need to train hard to gain the desired effects boost, so it makes no sense to claim they are all on it.
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