Planet Rugby Forum

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:28 am https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/just ... ng%20drugs.

"Wagner and Mitchell were targeted by undercover reporters posing as representatives of a film company who said that they wanted to make an actor look like an athlete and had a budget of $250,000 (about £185,000) to secure the drugs."

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:40 am

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:28 am Yes there is FFS! Again your entire argument is based on the situation 20 years ago. You are posting this in a topic where the USAs current biggest distance runner was just popped in a year that actually had fewer tests done due to the COVID global pandemic.

Okay, so I was wrong about human growth hormone. Good, well I'm glad they have a test for that.

But just because I was wrong about that one example does not invalidate the broarder point. There are stacks of drugs and other banned substances out there for which testing is either or all of impossible, extremely expensive, unreliable or extremely easy to beat. And that's just a fact, like it or not.

There's a nuclear-arms-type race going on between athletes and doping agencies and there's hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on both sides. All to prevent one or two bad apples?

I don't think so.

As I said earlier, testing is good, I'm glad it's there and it serves a purpose. But what it's doing is basically stopping athletes taking the absolute-piss and coming in red hot pissing fluoro green nuclear waste. If you think it's ensuring that elite level sports are close to clean, you're either ignorant or kidding yourself.

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:10 am

blindcider wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:42 am

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:28 am Bro. You think Triathlon athletes are not on shit? I suspect they'd be about as clean as the average Tour de France cyclist.

I know a few Pro Triathletes as the pool of athletes is fairly small and I would be very surprised if those specific individuals were on anything. I'm not saying in any way that triathlon is clean but there is very little money or exposure in the sport to make it worth the risk.

My suspicion would be that the biggest population of dopers in Tri (and cycling FWIW) is the amateur strava heroes near the front of the pack, particularly in the USA where people can easier procure some of this stuff like testosterone.

This is also backed up a study/survey a few years ago that suggested amateur athletes not being tested but competitive are more likely to dope than elite athletes.

AND-y wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:59 am

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:10 am

blindcider wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:42 am

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:28 am Bro. You think Triathlon athletes are not on shit? I suspect they'd be about as clean as the average Tour de France cyclist.

I know a few Pro Triathletes as the pool of athletes is fairly small and I would be very surprised if those specific individuals were on anything. I'm not saying in any way that triathlon is clean but there is very little money or exposure in the sport to make it worth the risk.

My suspicion would be that the biggest population of dopers in Tri (and cycling FWIW) is the amateur strava heroes near the front of the pack, particularly in the USA where people can easier procure some of this stuff like testosterone.

This is also backed up a study/survey a few years ago that suggested amateur athletes not being tested but competitive are more likely to dope than elite athletes.

Go to any park rugby game for evidence of this.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:22 am

Zakar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:21 am

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:15 am

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:10 am

blindcider wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:42 am

I know a few Pro Triathletes as the pool of athletes is fairly small and I would be very surprised if those specific individuals were on anything. I'm not saying in any way that triathlon is clean but there is very little money or exposure in the sport to make it worth the risk.

My suspicion would be that the biggest population of dopers in Tri (and cycling FWIW) is the amateur strava heroes near the front of the pack, particularly in the USA where people can easier procure some of this stuff like testosterone.

This is also backed up a study/survey a few years ago that suggested amateur athletes not being tested but competitive are more likely to dope than elite athletes. This was largely down to the fact doping is testing it self is an incentive to not dope and as I pointed out, it's actually requires a big resource of money to get around the Olympic doping protocols.

What on earth leads you to believe that?

There's a large amount of drugs out there, including human growth hormone, for which there are not tests. The test is, "did we catch them red-handed, with the needle in their arse? No? They passed". That strategy of beating this test is "don't shoot HGH in front of Olympic officials" and the cost of getting around that doping protocol is $0.

This is the thing: whatever the sport is, if it's a popular sport, the very few athletes that manage to get to the pinnacle level in that sport have a competitive drive to win that is hard for us plebs to comprehend. Yeah, they all seem like good blokes and down to earth in the TV interviews. But when it comes to crunch-time, they're cold blooded killers with a win at all costs attitude. They just have to be to get as far as they do.

Take that fact and compound it with the facts that 1) they know they're extremely unlikely to get caught if they take anything; and 2) they know many/most/all of the competition are doing it. And try and put yourself in their mindset.

And we haven't even got into the actual evidence, just the psychology.

It's naive bordering on delusional to think drugs in all top levels sports are not rife.

Of the 10k athletes in the games, how many are actually in a popular sport?

Who cares? You're completely missing the point.

Edit: okay ... I see what you mean. For clarification, every sport in the Olympics is a "popular sport". I added in that caveat so some idiot wouldn't pipe up with, "but you said doping is rife in ALL sports. I'm the best in the world at flicking orange pips into a beer bottle cap and I haven't doped".

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:51 am

There's a nuclear-arms-type race going on between athletes and doping agencies and there's hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on both sides. All to prevent one or two bad apples?

I don't think so.

As I said earlier, testing is good, I'm glad it's there and it serves a purpose. But what it's doing is basically stopping athletes taking the absolute-piss and coming in red hot pissing fluoro green nuclear waste. If you think it's ensuring that elite level sports are close to clean, you're either ignorant or kidding yourself.

It's not just one or two bad apples. Major athletes are being busted in the big sports. Heck the USAs best male sprinter were busted, now their major distance hope, a project Nike have invested millions into, has been busted, numerous big USa athletes, all of Russia, China's tops swimmer. Britain's top cyclist, the Nike Oregon Project's head man etc, masses of Kenyans, Maria Sharapova, etc etc etc. This isn't a case of one or two bad apples being it's lots, and high profiles ones too. It seems all you can do to back-up your points is rehash literally decades out of date or assumptions you back that don't even match the facts.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:12 am

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:51 am

There's a nuclear-arms-type race going on between athletes and doping agencies and there's hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on both sides. All to prevent one or two bad apples?

I don't think so.

As I said earlier, testing is good, I'm glad it's there and it serves a purpose. But what it's doing is basically stopping athletes taking the absolute-piss and coming in red hot pissing fluoro green nuclear waste. If you think it's ensuring that elite level sports are close to clean, you're either ignorant or kidding yourself.

It's not just one or two bad apples. Major athletes are being busted in the big sports. Heck the USAs best male sprinter were busted, now their major distance hope, a project Nike have invested millions into, has been busted, numerous big USa athletes, all of Russia, China's tops swimmer. Britain's top cyclist, the Nike Oregon Project's head man etc, masses of Kenyans, Maria Sharapova, etc etc etc. This isn't a case of one or two bad apples being it's lots, and high profiles ones too. It seems all you can do to back-up your points is rehash literally decades out of date or assumptions you back that don't even match the facts.

You're a strange cat and you're confusing.

So you basically agree with me, but you still want to wade in have a big shit fight because one of the details I mentioned is out of date ... am I getting this right ... or?

DragsterDriver wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:02 am

AND-y wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:59 am

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:10 am

blindcider wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:42 am

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:28 am Bro. You think Triathlon athletes are not on shit? I suspect they'd be about as clean as the average Tour de France cyclist.

I know a few Pro Triathletes as the pool of athletes is fairly small and I would be very surprised if those specific individuals were on anything. I'm not saying in any way that triathlon is clean but there is very little money or exposure in the sport to make it worth the risk.

My suspicion would be that the biggest population of dopers in Tri (and cycling FWIW) is the amateur strava heroes near the front of the pack, particularly in the USA where people can easier procure some of this stuff like testosterone.

This is also backed up a study/survey a few years ago that suggested amateur athletes not being tested but competitive are more likely to dope than elite athletes.

Go to any park rugby game for evidence of this.

Yup. Always semi pros that get busted because they have an amateur doping programme.

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:20 am

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:12 am

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:51 am

There's a nuclear-arms-type race going on between athletes and doping agencies and there's hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on both sides. All to prevent one or two bad apples?

I don't think so.

As I said earlier, testing is good, I'm glad it's there and it serves a purpose. But what it's doing is basically stopping athletes taking the absolute-piss and coming in red hot pissing fluoro green nuclear waste. If you think it's ensuring that elite level sports are close to clean, you're either ignorant or kidding yourself.

It's not just one or two bad apples. Major athletes are being busted in the big sports. Heck the USAs best male sprinter were busted, now their major distance hope, a project Nike have invested millions into, has been busted, numerous big USa athletes, all of Russia, China's tops swimmer. Britain's top cyclist, the Nike Oregon Project's head man etc, masses of Kenyans, Maria Sharapova, etc etc etc. This isn't a case of one or two bad apples being it's lots, and high profiles ones too. It seems all you can do to back-up your points is rehash literally decades out of date or assumptions you back that don't even match the facts.

You're a strange cat and you're confusing.

So you basically agree with me, but you still want to wade in have a big shit fight because one of the details I mentioned is out of date ... am I getting this right ... or?

I don't agree. Yes some athletes dope, many don't. It's not some nuclear arms race, the vast majority basically can't even begin it afford what is needed to bypass WADA and their nations anti-doping. So probably it is not a case of "they are all at it" but like in any situation some do, many would never do it and some are afraid of doing it and getting caught.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:29 am
That's ridiculous and you don't know what you're talking about. In most cases it simply involves not coming into competition red hot. It costs $0. Half the time they only bother testing the actual place getters.

It might get dicey and expensive when athletes try and push that window as close to the competition as they can or actually compete while actively on gear and "beat" the tests instead of just avoiding them. But that is only a small part of sports doping. Still it's basically the only thing testing is good for, and still the entire Tour de France field manager to do it every year with only a handful getting caught.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:01 am

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:59 am Armstrong had to reel in his intake as the testing got better. He’s actually a poster boy for “sooner or later, they’ll catch up with you.”

You’re kinda showing with this post that you don’t understand high level sports doping, but want to complain about it anyway.

That's hilarious. You don't budge an inch.

My point was that testing is ineffective and the example was that Armstrong took everything under the sun and never tested positive. Instead of conceding that point, you read this as a case-study of how "actually, drug cheats always get caught".

After this piece of impressive mental acrobatics, and your shocking revelation that almost 20 years ago, in 2004 someone doped a horse--as if doping up horses in basically any and every sport they participate in is not common as dogshit--you condescendingly inform others that they "don't understand high level doping".

Okay. You go on believing whatever helps you sleep at night mate.

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:19 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:01 am

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:59 am Armstrong had to reel in his intake as the testing got better. He’s actually a poster boy for “sooner or later, they’ll catch up with you.”

You’re kinda showing with this post that you don’t understand high level sports doping, but want to complain about it anyway.

That's hilarious. You don't budge an inch.

My point was that testing is ineffective and the example was that Armstrong took everything under the sun and never tested positive. Instead of conceding that point, you read this as a case-study of how "actually, drug cheats always get caught".

After this piece of impressive mental acrobatics, and your shocking revelation that almost 20 years ago, in 2004 someone doped a horse--as if doping up horses in basically any and every sport they participate in is not common as dogshit--you condescendingly inform others that they "don't understand high level doping".

Okay. You go on believing whatever helps you sleep at night mate.

Armstrong started out taking everything, but especially EPO, because there wasn’t a test for it.

Then the UCI introduced a red blood cell “health limit.” So Armstrong had to be careful how high he pushed his blood values.

Then a test got developed for EPO, (Lance got word of this in advance, so it was his competitors that got busted) so Lance et al had to find another way to boost their red cells. So they started blood doping.

Blood doping is not a straightforward process, so Lance had the best Doctor in the field, working for him on an exclusive contract. Other riders working with less expensive doctors got caught.

Nowadays, there are tests for the plasticizers used in blood doping, tests for all the multiple epo-type products that are out there, and biological passports that testers can track over time to see if someone is screwing around.

So between all these things, it is very hard to dope to a high level without being caught. Armstrong had to deal with moving goalposts in his time, to stay ahead of the testing, and one reason he could was the enormous resources at his disposal.

Or you could have just admitted that you don’t know much about doping in cycling, but then it’s never been your style to admit to being wrong, has it?

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:30 pm You keep saying doping is cheap and easy and the testing doesn’t work. As if an Olympic gold medalist is under the same scrutiny as a B-grade rugby player or the guy down the gym.

We keep pointing out that to compete at the highest level, and get away with doping, is actually very, very expensive. In some cases more expensive than a gold medal, or world championship, is worth.

And the example you brought up of someone who never tested positive, is someone who spent more money than you’ll ever earn, making sure he didn’t test positive. And even at that, he’s since had all his wins taken away.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:36 pm

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:30 pm You keep saying doping is cheap and easy and the testing doesn’t work. As if an Olympic gold medalist is under the same scrutiny as a B-grade rugby player or the guy down the gym.

We keep pointing out that to compete at the highest level, and get away with doping, is actually very, very expensive. In some cases more expensive than a gold medal, or world championship, is worth.

And the example you brought up of someone who never tested positive, is someone who spent more money than you’ll ever earn, making sure he didn’t test positive. And even at that, he’s since had all his wins taken away.

Because he is like, the only one doing it.

Didn't they have to go down to the 11th place one year in the Tour De France to get to the first guy who had never been convicted of any doping offence?

And that just means he wasn't caught.

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:19 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:36 pm

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:30 pm You keep saying doping is cheap and easy and the testing doesn’t work. As if an Olympic gold medalist is under the same scrutiny as a B-grade rugby player or the guy down the gym.

We keep pointing out that to compete at the highest level, and get away with doping, is actually very, very expensive. In some cases more expensive than a gold medal, or world championship, is worth.

And the example you brought up of someone who never tested positive, is someone who spent more money than you’ll ever earn, making sure he didn’t test positive. And even at that, he’s since had all his wins taken away.

Because he is like, the only one doing it.

Didn't they have to go down to the 11th place one year in the Tour De France to get to the first guy who had never been convicted of any doping offence?

And that just means he wasn't caught.

I didn't say he was the only one doing it, but you brought him up as an example of someone who never tested positive. I just pointed out that it took him a lot of effort and expense to never test positive. People who didn't put in the same effort or expense, got caught.

Yes. One year. 20 years ago. Of the top 10 at last year's Tour, only one, Damiano Caruso who finished 10th, has a doping record, and that was a 1-year backdated suspension, related to his time on an amateur team in 2010.

You keep being told your information and assumptions are out of date. You keep not updating them.

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:27 pm

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:19 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:36 pm

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:30 pm You keep saying doping is cheap and easy and the testing doesn’t work. As if an Olympic gold medalist is under the same scrutiny as a B-grade rugby player or the guy down the gym.

We keep pointing out that to compete at the highest level, and get away with doping, is actually very, very expensive. In some cases more expensive than a gold medal, or world championship, is worth.

And the example you brought up of someone who never tested positive, is someone who spent more money than you’ll ever earn, making sure he didn’t test positive. And even at that, he’s since had all his wins taken away.

Because he is like, the only one doing it.

Didn't they have to go down to the 11th place one year in the Tour De France to get to the first guy who had never been convicted of any doping offence?

And that just means he wasn't caught.

I didn't say he was the only one doing it, but you brought him up as an example of someone who never tested positive. I just pointed out that it took him a lot of effort and expense to never test positive. People who didn't put in the same effort or expense, got caught.

Yes. One year. 20 years ago. Of the top 10 at last year's Tour, only one, Damiano Caruso who finished 10th, has a doping record, and that was a 1-year backdated suspension, related to his time on an amateur team in 2010.

You keep being told your information and assumptions are out of date. You keep not updating them.

Yeah yeah. You're all over the place mate. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or you just keeping shooting your own foot.

So what are you saying now ... high level sports used to be totally rife with performance enhancing drugs ... but that's all "out of date" and it's pretty much clean now? Like, for the first time in history since the invention of PEDs.

Okay. If that's what you want to believe.

eldanielfire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:06 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:27 pm

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:19 pm

Mog The Almighty wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:36 pm

DOB wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:30 pm You keep saying doping is cheap and easy and the testing doesn’t work. As if an Olympic gold medalist is under the same scrutiny as a B-grade rugby player or the guy down the gym.

We keep pointing out that to compete at the highest level, and get away with doping, is actually very, very expensive. In some cases more expensive than a gold medal, or world championship, is worth.

And the example you brought up of someone who never tested positive, is someone who spent more money than you’ll ever earn, making sure he didn’t test positive. And even at that, he’s since had all his wins taken away.

Because he is like, the only one doing it.

Didn't they have to go down to the 11th place one year in the Tour De France to get to the first guy who had never been convicted of any doping offence?

And that just means he wasn't caught.

I didn't say he was the only one doing it, but you brought him up as an example of someone who never tested positive. I just pointed out that it took him a lot of effort and expense to never test positive. People who didn't put in the same effort or expense, got caught.

Yes. One year. 20 years ago. Of the top 10 at last year's Tour, only one, Damiano Caruso who finished 10th, has a doping record, and that was a 1-year backdated suspension, related to his time on an amateur team in 2010.

You keep being told your information and assumptions are out of date. You keep not updating them.

Yeah yeah. You're all over the place mate. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or you just keeping shooting your own foot.

So what are you saying now ... high level sports used to be totally rife with performance enhancing drugs ... but that's all "out of date" and it's pretty much clean now? Like, for the first time in history since the invention of PEDs.

Okay. If that's what you want to believe.

You're all over the place, and purposely missrepresenting what people say. No one has ever said sport is completely clean.