Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

All things Rugby
User avatar
Kahu
Posts: 3708
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:58 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Kahu »

This AB team is going to find it tough when faced against an excellent opponent.
obelixtim
Posts: 6689
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by obelixtim »

Kahu wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:52 am This AB team is going to find it tough when faced against an excellent opponent.
Yeah, well, the Boks have been talking a good game...
User avatar
kiwigreg369
Posts: 6722
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Kahu wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:52 am This AB team is going to find it tough when faced against an excellent opponent.
Yes - as has always been the way.

Worse is that they are not as good (yet) as prior years. And SA are better - but that said:
- SA lost at home to a turgid Lions team whose execution in attack was poor (handling errors and lost possession) and could not catch anything - even Covid.
- Arg looked well short of the intensity they had to beat the ABs last year (and the ABs are a better team than last year, albeit missing four key players).
User avatar
Whatever
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Rockyville, Merryland

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Whatever »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:04 pm It was a weird looking take. I can't recall seeing this in a game before. On the flip side Koroibetes momentum would have almost certainly have caused him to collide with Barrett while he was in the air.

I noticed Beauden Barrett later in the game taking care not to repeat Barrett's mistake when receiving the ball in the air by turning side on.
I thought you give benefit to the to the player in the air, and J Barrett was still in the air when he connected with Korobete who was land-based. I remember Jonathan Davies saying if you go up in the air, lead with your studs to keep yourself safe; would seem not to apply anymore.

But what was interesting to me was the lack of exhaustive conversation from the officials about it, which we are so used to seeing now. Normally I'd say that's a good thing, but this one required some discussion. A good ref, convinced of his decision, talks directly to the player and tells him exactly where he went wrong, then shows him the card. From what I saw, Murphy just showed him a card without explanation, and turned his back. I thought that was interesting.
User avatar
Pakia Pakia
Posts: 2780
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:04 pm It was a weird looking take. I can't recall seeing this in a game before. On the flip side Koroibetes momentum would have almost certainly have caused him to collide with Barrett while he was in the air.

I noticed Beauden Barrett later in the game taking care not to repeat Barrett's mistake when receiving the ball in the air by turning side on.
I thought you give benefit to the to the player in the air, and J Barrett was still in the air when he connected with Korobete who was land-based. I remember Jonathan Davies saying if you go up in the air, lead with your studs to keep yourself safe; would seem not to apply anymore.

But what was interesting to me was the lack of exhaustive conversation from the officials about it, which we are so used to seeing now. Normally I'd say that's a good thing, but this one required some discussion. A good ref, convinced of his decision, talks directly to the player and tells him exactly where he went wrong, then shows him the card. From what I saw, Murphy just showed him a card without explanation, and turned his back. I thought that was interesting.
I thought the refs response was good myself and showed the benefit of the 20 minute rule. Make a decision and get on with it instead of endless discussions and replays.
User avatar
Whatever
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Rockyville, Merryland

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Whatever »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:41 am
Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:04 pm It was a weird looking take. I can't recall seeing this in a game before. On the flip side Koroibetes momentum would have almost certainly have caused him to collide with Barrett while he was in the air.

I noticed Beauden Barrett later in the game taking care not to repeat Barrett's mistake when receiving the ball in the air by turning side on.
I thought you give benefit to the to the player in the air, and J Barrett was still in the air when he connected with Korobete who was land-based. I remember Jonathan Davies saying if you go up in the air, lead with your studs to keep yourself safe; would seem not to apply anymore.

But what was interesting to me was the lack of exhaustive conversation from the officials about it, which we are so used to seeing now. Normally I'd say that's a good thing, but this one required some discussion. A good ref, convinced of his decision, talks directly to the player and tells him exactly where he went wrong, then shows him the card. From what I saw, Murphy just showed him a card without explanation, and turned his back. I thought that was interesting.
I thought the refs response was good myself and showed the benefit of the 20 minute rule. Make a decision and get on with it instead of endless discussions and replays.
Oh look, there's no one who would like less time spent watching the officials going through every little thing than me - have you watched any NH rugby - but this one actually warranted it. But you can't use the 20 minute rule as an excuse for excess; decisions need to stand on their own merits. I'm not convinced this one did.

And the NH unions rejected the 20 minute rule anyhow - wrongly - so it should be business s usual.
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 18286
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Thomas »

Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:04 pm It was a weird looking take. I can't recall seeing this in a game before. On the flip side Koroibetes momentum would have almost certainly have caused him to collide with Barrett while he was in the air.

I noticed Beauden Barrett later in the game taking care not to repeat Barrett's mistake when receiving the ball in the air by turning side on.
I thought you give benefit to the to the player in the air, and J Barrett was still in the air when he connected with Korobete who was land-based. I remember Jonathan Davies saying if you go up in the air, lead with your studs to keep yourself safe; would seem not to apply anymore.

But what was interesting to me was the lack of exhaustive conversation from the officials about it, which we are so used to seeing now. Normally I'd say that's a good thing, but this one required some discussion. A good ref, convinced of his decision, talks directly to the player and tells him exactly where he went wrong, then shows him the card. From what I saw, Murphy just showed him a card without explanation, and turned his back. I thought that was interesting.
Did it?

For me it was pretty straight down the line. Player in the air kicks out with his studs and makes contact with the face of the defender. Every day that's a red card. The only mitigating thing would have been if Barrett was completely disoriented and his leg movement was not controlled. As it was Barrett jumped into the air and then led with his foot as he came down. There was no need for him to do that.

What will be interesting is how the judiciary see it. Odogwu in the NH got a 6-week ban.
User avatar
UncleFB
Posts: 15136
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by UncleFB »

Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:21 am
Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:04 pm It was a weird looking take. I can't recall seeing this in a game before. On the flip side Koroibetes momentum would have almost certainly have caused him to collide with Barrett while he was in the air.

I noticed Beauden Barrett later in the game taking care not to repeat Barrett's mistake when receiving the ball in the air by turning side on.
I thought you give benefit to the to the player in the air, and J Barrett was still in the air when he connected with Korobete who was land-based. I remember Jonathan Davies saying if you go up in the air, lead with your studs to keep yourself safe; would seem not to apply anymore.

But what was interesting to me was the lack of exhaustive conversation from the officials about it, which we are so used to seeing now. Normally I'd say that's a good thing, but this one required some discussion. A good ref, convinced of his decision, talks directly to the player and tells him exactly where he went wrong, then shows him the card. From what I saw, Murphy just showed him a card without explanation, and turned his back. I thought that was interesting.
Did it?

For me it was pretty straight down the line. Player in the air kicks out with his studs and makes contact with the face of the defender. Every day that's a red card. The only mitigating thing would have been if Barrett was completely disoriented and his leg movement was not controlled. As it was Barrett jumped into the air and then led with his foot as he came down. There was no need for him to do that.

What will be interesting is how the judiciary see it. Odogwu in the NH got a 6-week ban.
I'm surprised by the amount of my countrymen who tried to claim Koroibete was taking JB out in the air. Was he doing it by tackling JB with his face? There's an implication that he was always going to take JB out in the air, which is not provable and didn't happen. JB took a risk by kicking his feet and paid the consequences.

I would have been fine with a yellow card though.
User avatar
badmannotinjapan
Posts: 6421
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by badmannotinjapan »

Dan54. wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 am
badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:41 am
Dan54. wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:02 pm
badmannotinjapan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:20 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:11 pm

We had two senior players come off early along with the red card. Papali'i left the field around the 60 minute mark and SBarrett went into the loose forwards with Ioane and Blackadder. Hardly a balanced loose trio for the final 20 minutes.
The Wobs had plenty of changes too. Why would their attack improve yet our defence losen up?
I don't know how long you have watched rugby, defence is mental as well as physical, have a look at almost any game the ABs (or any team) win by a bit, they tend to relax slightly at end, remember the 15 WC final how Wallabies came back latish in 2nd half? It's a fact off life from most teams , don't know how we will ever stop it.
Clearly I've watched rugby longer than you believe. Ben Smith was in the bin when the Wobs scored their two tries. So not really a great comparison. The TK try may not have been scored as we were down a fullback.
So what you saying is this team has a superior defence system with 14 men? I think you will find a vast amount of times AB teams (or rugby teams in general)that have won by a fair bit leak tries when they get well ahead , they shouldn't but a couple of things happen, the intensity drops off , and the losing teams throws the ball around a lot more that will often either score or get points scored against it. I stick with what I say, I don't think it was a bad defensive effort.
It wasn't bad. But could be better. 10 tries over 3 tests. That's a lot.
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 18286
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Thomas »

UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:29 am
I'm surprised by the amount of my countrymen who tried to claim Koroibete was taking JB out in the air. Was he doing it by tackling JB with his face? There's an implication that he was always going to take JB out in the air, which is not provable and didn't happen. JB took a risk by kicking his feet and paid the consequences.

I would have been fine with a yellow card though.
Yeah, there's been some substantial mental gymnastics on a number of forums/social media by kiwi fans trying to justify it.

For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?
User avatar
Fat Old Git
Posts: 22724
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: A vacant lot next to a pile of rubble

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Fat Old Git »

Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:29 am
I'm surprised by the amount of my countrymen who tried to claim Koroibete was taking JB out in the air. Was he doing it by tackling JB with his face? There's an implication that he was always going to take JB out in the air, which is not provable and didn't happen. JB took a risk by kicking his feet and paid the consequences.

I would have been fine with a yellow card though.
Yeah, there's been some substantial mental gymnastics on a number of forums/social media by kiwi fans trying to justify it.

For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?
I would give the benefit of the doubt to the player who appeared to be trying to rebalance themselves in the air and not try and claim that I knew what they did or didn't have to do to achieve that, especially given many things people do when trying to regain balance in various situations are involuntary.

The alternative is it was a deliberate decision to do something that was unnecessary and unlikely to benefit either the player or his team.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14560
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by naki »

Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?
Yellow card at worst. Redcard-itist for accidents is shit sport.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14560
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by naki »

naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:05 am
Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?
Yellow card at worst. Redcard-itis for accidents is shit sport.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14560
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by naki »

naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:05 am
Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?
Yellow card at worst. Redcard-itis for accidents is shit sport.
Quoting this as that's what I would have said. And "I'm hungry". I probably would have said that as well
User avatar
Pakia Pakia
Posts: 2780
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:21 am
Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:04 pm It was a weird looking take. I can't recall seeing this in a game before. On the flip side Koroibetes momentum would have almost certainly have caused him to collide with Barrett while he was in the air.

I noticed Beauden Barrett later in the game taking care not to repeat Barrett's mistake when receiving the ball in the air by turning side on.
I thought you give benefit to the to the player in the air, and J Barrett was still in the air when he connected with Korobete who was land-based. I remember Jonathan Davies saying if you go up in the air, lead with your studs to keep yourself safe; would seem not to apply anymore.

But what was interesting to me was the lack of exhaustive conversation from the officials about it, which we are so used to seeing now. Normally I'd say that's a good thing, but this one required some discussion. A good ref, convinced of his decision, talks directly to the player and tells him exactly where he went wrong, then shows him the card. From what I saw, Murphy just showed him a card without explanation, and turned his back. I thought that was interesting.
Did it?

For me it was pretty straight down the line. Player in the air kicks out with his studs and makes contact with the face of the defender. Every day that's a red card. The only mitigating thing would have been if Barrett was completely disoriented and his leg movement was not controlled. As it was Barrett jumped into the air and then led with his foot as he came down. There was no need for him to do that.

What will be interesting is how the judiciary see it. Odogwu in the NH got a 6-week ban.
I'm not opposed to a six week ban. Hopefully it will make Beauden Barrett think twice about completing the trifecta.
User avatar
Whatever
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Rockyville, Merryland

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Whatever »

badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:45 am
Dan54. wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 am
badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:41 am
Dan54. wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:02 pm
badmannotinjapan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:20 pm

The Wobs had plenty of changes too. Why would their attack improve yet our defence losen up?
I don't know how long you have watched rugby, defence is mental as well as physical, have a look at almost any game the ABs (or any team) win by a bit, they tend to relax slightly at end, remember the 15 WC final how Wallabies came back latish in 2nd half? It's a fact off life from most teams , don't know how we will ever stop it.
Clearly I've watched rugby longer than you believe. Ben Smith was in the bin when the Wobs scored their two tries. So not really a great comparison. The TK try may not have been scored as we were down a fullback.
So what you saying is this team has a superior defence system with 14 men? I think you will find a vast amount of times AB teams (or rugby teams in general)that have won by a fair bit leak tries when they get well ahead , they shouldn't but a couple of things happen, the intensity drops off , and the losing teams throws the ball around a lot more that will often either score or get points scored against it. I stick with what I say, I don't think it was a bad defensive effort.
It wasn't bad. But could be better. 10 tries over 3 tests. That's a lot.
My point is, regarding players catching in the air, that invariably it is the guy that interferes with him that gets carded. This was unusual, maybe unique, that the catching player, whilst still in the air, gets carded - don't recall seeing that before. Was that judging on intent, it would have to be wouldn't it? That and the refs unwillingness to explain it to us all, that was weird.
User avatar
Monkey Magic
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Monkey Magic »

Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:11 am
badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:45 am
Dan54. wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 am
badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:41 am
Dan54. wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:02 pm
I don't know how long you have watched rugby, defence is mental as well as physical, have a look at almost any game the ABs (or any team) win by a bit, they tend to relax slightly at end, remember the 15 WC final how Wallabies came back latish in 2nd half? It's a fact off life from most teams , don't know how we will ever stop it.
Clearly I've watched rugby longer than you believe. Ben Smith was in the bin when the Wobs scored their two tries. So not really a great comparison. The TK try may not have been scored as we were down a fullback.
So what you saying is this team has a superior defence system with 14 men? I think you will find a vast amount of times AB teams (or rugby teams in general)that have won by a fair bit leak tries when they get well ahead , they shouldn't but a couple of things happen, the intensity drops off , and the losing teams throws the ball around a lot more that will often either score or get points scored against it. I stick with what I say, I don't think it was a bad defensive effort.
It wasn't bad. But could be better. 10 tries over 3 tests. That's a lot.
My point is, regarding players catching in the air, that invariably it is the guy that interferes with him that gets carded. This was unusual, maybe unique, that the catching player, whilst still in the air, gets carded - don't recall seeing that before. Was that judging on intent, it would have to be wouldn't it? That and the refs unwillingness to explain it to us all, that was weird.
What are you talking about? The ref said clearly through the comms that it was a boot to the head so a red card.

Intention has nothing to do with it.
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 18286
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Thomas »

Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:11 am My point is, regarding players catching in the air, that invariably it is the guy that interferes with him that gets carded. This was unusual, maybe unique, that the catching player, whilst still in the air, gets carded - don't recall seeing that before. Was that judging on intent, it would have to be wouldn't it? That and the refs unwillingness to explain it to us all, that was weird.
What else was he supposed to say? Do you need someone to explain why it was a red? I mean, everyone saw it.

As for players in the air getting carded, you don't remember this one?

Image

Some other incidents are here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... roversial/
User avatar
UncleFB
Posts: 15136
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by UncleFB »

naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:05 am
Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?
Yellow card at worst. Redcard-itis for accidents is shit sport.
Quoting this as that's what I would have said. And "I'm hungry". I probably would have said that as well
What is happening here? Did you forget to login as a multi? 8)
User avatar
Whatever
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Rockyville, Merryland

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Whatever »

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:15 am
Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:11 am
badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:45 am
Dan54. wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 am
badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:41 am

Clearly I've watched rugby longer than you believe. Ben Smith was in the bin when the Wobs scored their two tries. So not really a great comparison. The TK try may not have been scored as we were down a fullback.
So what you saying is this team has a superior defence system with 14 men? I think you will find a vast amount of times AB teams (or rugby teams in general)that have won by a fair bit leak tries when they get well ahead , they shouldn't but a couple of things happen, the intensity drops off , and the losing teams throws the ball around a lot more that will often either score or get points scored against it. I stick with what I say, I don't think it was a bad defensive effort.
It wasn't bad. But could be better. 10 tries over 3 tests. That's a lot.
My point is, regarding players catching in the air, that invariably it is the guy that interferes with him that gets carded. This was unusual, maybe unique, that the catching player, whilst still in the air, gets carded - don't recall seeing that before. Was that judging on intent, it would have to be wouldn't it? That and the refs unwillingness to explain it to us all, that was weird.
What are you talking about? The ref said clearly through the comms that it was a boot to the head so a red card.

Intention has nothing to do with it.
Intention has everything to do with it. Hooper copped a boot to the head from Retallick in the same game, no issue there. So "a boot to the head so a red card" is insufficient. Imagine how many red cards there would be if that was the rule, for anyone who has ever played the game. Has to be intent.
User avatar
naki
Posts: 14560
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by naki »

UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:26 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:05 am
Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?
Yellow card at worst. Redcard-itis for accidents is shit sport.
Quoting this as that's what I would have said. And "I'm hungry". I probably would have said that as well
What is happening here? Did you forget to login as a multi? 8)
I'm hungry
User avatar
Monkey Magic
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Monkey Magic »

Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:26 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:15 am
Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:11 am
badmannotinjapan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:45 am
Dan54. wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 am

So what you saying is this team has a superior defence system with 14 men? I think you will find a vast amount of times AB teams (or rugby teams in general)that have won by a fair bit leak tries when they get well ahead , they shouldn't but a couple of things happen, the intensity drops off , and the losing teams throws the ball around a lot more that will often either score or get points scored against it. I stick with what I say, I don't think it was a bad defensive effort.
It wasn't bad. But could be better. 10 tries over 3 tests. That's a lot.
My point is, regarding players catching in the air, that invariably it is the guy that interferes with him that gets carded. This was unusual, maybe unique, that the catching player, whilst still in the air, gets carded - don't recall seeing that before. Was that judging on intent, it would have to be wouldn't it? That and the refs unwillingness to explain it to us all, that was weird.
What are you talking about? The ref said clearly through the comms that it was a boot to the head so a red card.

Intention has nothing to do with it.
Intention has everything to do with it. Hooper copped a boot to the head from Retallick in the same game, no issue there. So "a boot to the head so a red card" is insufficient. Imagine how many red cards there would be if that was the rule, for anyone who has ever played the game. Has to be intent.
Hooper went in for a tackle and fell down, and got run over by someone in a normal running action. Marika was approaching a player and got a boot to the head from a player who kicked his leg out in a completely unexpected way. Putting your leg at that angle with your studs up is reckless, if someone cops it to the head you're in trouble
Last edited by Monkey Magic on Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Zakar
Posts: 19521
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Haunting your dreams

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Zakar »

Image
Sonny Blount
Posts: 4799
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Sonny Blount »

Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:29 am
I'm surprised by the amount of my countrymen who tried to claim Koroibete was taking JB out in the air. Was he doing it by tackling JB with his face? There's an implication that he was always going to take JB out in the air, which is not provable and didn't happen. JB took a risk by kicking his feet and paid the consequences.

I would have been fine with a yellow card though.
Yeah, there's been some substantial mental gymnastics on a number of forums/social media by kiwi fans trying to justify it.

For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?

What would you have said if it was Jordie Barrets knee making contact with Marika Koroibete's face? The card might be reversed in that situation.
User avatar
Whatever
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Rockyville, Merryland

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Whatever »

Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:26 am
Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:11 am My point is, regarding players catching in the air, that invariably it is the guy that interferes with him that gets carded. This was unusual, maybe unique, that the catching player, whilst still in the air, gets carded - don't recall seeing that before. Was that judging on intent, it would have to be wouldn't it? That and the refs unwillingness to explain it to us all, that was weird.
What else was he supposed to say? Do you need someone to explain why it was a red? I mean, everyone saw it.

As for players in the air getting carded, you don't remember this one?

Image

Some other incidents are here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... roversial/
Actually I do now, that guy really did lash out. That one was quite reckless, so I take back "that the catching player, whilst still in the air, gets carded" is unique, there was that. I am still unimpressed by Murphy's lack of explanation; NH refs would have spend a good 15 minutes on that.
User avatar
trapper
Posts: 3295
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Gippsland

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by trapper »

C’mon, that was a red all day long according to the laws.

But I would be mighty surprised if it went further than that.
User avatar
Demilich
Posts: 3849
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Demilich »

Definitely a bigger travesty than the red Koribete himself received against the French.
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 18286
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Thomas »

Sonny Blount wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 am
Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:29 am
I'm surprised by the amount of my countrymen who tried to claim Koroibete was taking JB out in the air. Was he doing it by tackling JB with his face? There's an implication that he was always going to take JB out in the air, which is not provable and didn't happen. JB took a risk by kicking his feet and paid the consequences.

I would have been fine with a yellow card though.
Yeah, there's been some substantial mental gymnastics on a number of forums/social media by kiwi fans trying to justify it.

For those in doubt about the decision, what would you have said had it been MK in the air and Barrett getting the kick to the face?

What would you have said if it was Jordie Barrets knee making contact with Marika Koroibete's face? The card might be reversed in that situation.
If MK had smashed him while he was off the ground then it would be dependent on the outcome and how Barrett landed. Definitely a penalty. A card if the player landed dangerously.
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 18286
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Thomas »

trapper wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:45 am C’mon, that was a red all day long according to the laws.

But I would be mighty surprised if it went further than that.
Yep. 100% red card.

I would have thought for Barrett to cop a ban, it would have to be deemed that he intentionally struck MK. Which I don't think he did.
User avatar
Dumbledore
Posts: 11634
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA plum

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Dumbledore »

I think Barrett got a bit nervous in the air and went to keep Koroibete away. Given the way Koroibete chases kicks I'd be worried about it too. Not malicious, just a bit dim. Nothing that deserves a suspension, but probably the perfect case for the 20 minute red card.

Still can't get over Lolesio trying the crossfield kick to Kellaway with a massive man advantage. He's dumb as, no wonder Kellaway cracked it.
Noob
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:29 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Noob »

Muttonbirds wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:29 am
Olo wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:10 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:01 pm Did anyone else cringe when promising Wallabies player (there are so many), Andrew Kellaway yelled at Lolesio to 'keep it in the hands' right after he completely botched Lolesio's pinpoint accurate cross kick?

Perhaps promising Wallabies player, Andrew Kellaway, should y'know, 'keep it in the hands'?
It was the wrong option, like so many that Lolesio takes. Keep the fuckin pill in hand and be patient.
Kellaway has a good rugby brain and most often takes very good options.

And the kick was over cooked.
:? Kellaway literally smashed it into the ground like it was a volleyball spike. Perhaps he did it on purpose because he was frustrated at Lolesio's option taking. It kinda looked like that.
I think it was a bit high and probably going to go our as opposed to a pinpoint kick.
User avatar
RoscoPColtrain
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by RoscoPColtrain »

UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:29 am
Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:21 am
Whatever wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:04 pm It was a weird looking take. I can't recall seeing this in a game before. On the flip side Koroibetes momentum would have almost certainly have caused him to collide with Barrett while he was in the air.

I noticed Beauden Barrett later in the game taking care not to repeat Barrett's mistake when receiving the ball in the air by turning side on.
I thought you give benefit to the to the player in the air, and J Barrett was still in the air when he connected with Korobete who was land-based. I remember Jonathan Davies saying if you go up in the air, lead with your studs to keep yourself safe; would seem not to apply anymore.

But what was interesting to me was the lack of exhaustive conversation from the officials about it, which we are so used to seeing now. Normally I'd say that's a good thing, but this one required some discussion. A good ref, convinced of his decision, talks directly to the player and tells him exactly where he went wrong, then shows him the card. From what I saw, Murphy just showed him a card without explanation, and turned his back. I thought that was interesting.
Did it?

For me it was pretty straight down the line. Player in the air kicks out with his studs and makes contact with the face of the defender. Every day that's a red card. The only mitigating thing would have been if Barrett was completely disoriented and his leg movement was not controlled. As it was Barrett jumped into the air and then led with his foot as he came down. There was no need for him to do that.

What will be interesting is how the judiciary see it. Odogwu in the NH got a 6-week ban.
I'm surprised by the amount of my countrymen who tried to claim Koroibete was taking JB out in the air. Was he doing it by tackling JB with his face? There's an implication that he was always going to take JB out in the air, which is not provable and didn't happen. JB took a risk by kicking his feet and paid the consequences.

I would have been fine with a yellow card though.
Yeah for me the only question was yellow or red and really wasn’t that surprised at the red. And given it was the 20 min red I don’t think it made that much difference.

I know it’s early days but I actually quite like the 20 min red, think it strikes a good balance between punishing the individual the most, keeping it a severe punishment on the team but not turning it into a lopsided match.
User avatar
Enzedder
Posts: 22139
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: End of the road, turn right and first house on the left

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Enzedder »

ABs are going to appeal the decision to card him.
User avatar
guy smiley
Posts: 37824
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: in transit

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by guy smiley »

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:46 am ABs are going to appeal the decision to card him.
:lol: :thumbup:

Excellent
User avatar
kiwigreg369
Posts: 6722
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by kiwigreg369 »

guy smiley wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:52 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:46 am ABs are going to appeal the decision to card him.
:lol: :thumbup:

Excellent
Excellent.

This needs testing - a red card is a very unusual outcome.
Dan54.
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:23 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Dan54. »

Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:57 am
trapper wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:45 am C’mon, that was a red all day long according to the laws.

But I would be mighty surprised if it went further than that.
Yep. 100% red card.

I would have thought for Barrett to cop a ban, it would have to be deemed that he intentionally struck MK. Which I don't think he did.
I agree, I said to Mrs when I saw it, has to Red because of laws, I do think could be deemed as sufficient punishment. But may have to appeal because it could be automatic suspension if it upheld.
Last edited by Dan54. on Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Thomas
Posts: 18286
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: STRAYA!

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by Thomas »

kiwigreg369 wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:00 am
guy smiley wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:52 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:46 am ABs are going to appeal the decision to card him.
:lol: :thumbup:

Excellent
Excellent.

This needs testing - a red card is a very unusual outcome.
Since when? :lol:
User avatar
elcamino
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by elcamino »

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... fare-issue

Anyone else read this today re Ardie and Cody's head knocks? I just went and watched the sequence where it happens. That ref was just totally out of his depth. Game should have been stopped for Cody - he looked in very bad shape. Will be surprised to see him back next week. No foul play from the Wallabies but both incidents happened in the 34th minute if you wanna watch.
User avatar
UncleFB
Posts: 15136
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by UncleFB »

naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:26 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am
naki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:05 am

Yellow card at worst. Redcard-itis for accidents is shit sport.
Quoting this as that's what I would have said. And "I'm hungry". I probably would have said that as well
What is happening here? Did you forget to login as a multi? 8)
I'm hungry
:lol:
User avatar
kiwigreg369
Posts: 6722
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Official Match Thread TRC RD II All Blacks vs Whingers

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Thomas - short version, it’s madness…
- if it’s contact to head, and reckless, player at fault and medium to high level of recklessness - go yes on all - then it’s a card. At that point of the decision framework it asks if there are mitigating factors to bring it down from red.

I don’t actually agree with their premise, but at minimum there is mitigation in that Jordie B was in the air and doesn’t have ability to control movement. At minimum… which means it’s yellow - unless they feel it was intentional- which would be an amazing assumption.,.,,

And all that ignores MK making contact with Jordie whilst he’s in the air….
Post Reply