Planet Rugby Forum

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:06 am**

Carfer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:00 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:52 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:38 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:24 am Rotation makes sense at this point and can expect more next week. I would expect Akira Ioane not to start next week and maybe Laulala along with Havili.
We lost to Argentina last year with pretty much a full-strength side, would rather not risk that happening again.
Carfer has shown that the team is missing a number of key players compared to last year. A third of the starting 15. Miotti is a big step down from Sanchez. I'm not saying they should make wholesale changes but I expect the the team will be different again next week in 3 or 4 positions.
Miotti with Cubelli could have been a somewhat more satisfactory solution in Sanchez's absence, with Cubelli leading the action in the halves. Unfortunately, Cubelli was injured in August, in pre-season with Biarritz Olympique.

Sanchez was a major impact in the win against the ABs last year. I've never seen Miotti influence a game in that way.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:14 am**

Pakia Pakia wrote:
Sanchez was a major impact in the win against the ABs last year. I've never seen Miotti influence a game in that way.

True, but without Cubelli at his side (they were team-mates at Force) the outlook is even bleaker. Cubo's trickery often opens up some gaps that Sanchez also tries to make. Miotti is a tidier guy, more adjusted to the coaches' script.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:17 am**

mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:06 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:02 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:58 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:52 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:38 am

We lost to Argentina last year with pretty much a full-strength side, would rather not risk that happening again.
Carfer has shown that the team is missing a number of key players compared to last year. A third of the starting 15. Miotti is a big step down from Sanchez. I'm not saying they should make wholesale changes but I expect the the team will be different again next week in 3 or 4 positions.
Sure, but so are we. No Mo'unga, Smith, Whitelock, Goodhue, Cane and maybe Tu'ungafaasi is a third of our first choice XV. Just don't think we can afford to take Argentina lightly anymore and make further changes. They will be well up for this after last year.
I'm not convinced that Goodhue, Cane, and Tu'ungafaasi are obviously better than the current incumbents. Our depth is much stronger than Argentina's and almost all of our players have played well this year.
Tu'ungafaasi I agree with, but Cane and Goodhue walk back in once fit. Truly don't understand why people are so eager to write Cane off - he was our best player last year.

Not convinced Goodhue is better than ALB at 13 and he definitely isn't better than Havili at 12.

I'm not writing Cane off. I would expect him to be eased back in rather than walk straight in while Papalii does a fine job.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:18 am**

Grandpa wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:26 pm
guy smiley wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:17 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:58 pm https://www.allblacks.com/news/all-blac ... oast-test/

The matchday 23 is (Test caps in brackets):

1. Karl Tu’inukuafe (20)
2. Asafo Aumua (2)
3. Nepo Laulala (34)
4. Brodie Retallick – captain (86)
5. Scott Barrett (44)
6. Akira Ioane (7)
7. Dalton Papalii (8)
8. Luke Jacobson (7)
9. TJ Perenara (71)
10. Beauden Barrett (94)
11. George Bridge (13)
12. David Havili (8)
13. Anton Lienert-Brown (52)
14. Sevu Reece (12)
15. Jordie Barrett (28)
16. Samisoni Taukei’aho (4)
17. Joe Moody (50)
18. Tyrel Lomax (8)
19. Tupou Vaa’i (5)
20. Ethan Blackadder (3)
21. Brad Weber (11)
22. Damian McKenzie (33)
23. Rieko Ioane (40)

30-year-old lock Brodie Retallick will captain the team in Ardie Savea’s absence, becoming the 71st All Blacks Test captain. Retallick has started 71 of his 86 Tests to date and will be playing his 14th Test against Argentina.
Holy shit
I like the loose forward mix... But the backline doesn't feel as strong as last week.

I like the loose forward mix also, but 22 caps between them is the lowest we would have seen for a while.

Because the team will be closetted together for so long I think changing 3-4 players of the starting XV per week is about right, so this a bit more. You change too many players and you lose, then you don't learn anything - too many variables. But the aim must be to field the best XV available for the Boks.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:21 am**

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:17 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:06 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:02 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:58 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:52 am

Carfer has shown that the team is missing a number of key players compared to last year. A third of the starting 15. Miotti is a big step down from Sanchez. I'm not saying they should make wholesale changes but I expect the the team will be different again next week in 3 or 4 positions.
Sure, but so are we. No Mo'unga, Smith, Whitelock, Goodhue, Cane and maybe Tu'ungafaasi is a third of our first choice XV. Just don't think we can afford to take Argentina lightly anymore and make further changes. They will be well up for this after last year.
I'm not convinced that Goodhue, Cane, and Tu'ungafaasi are obviously better than the current incumbents. Our depth is much stronger than Argentina's and almost all of our players have played well this year.
Tu'ungafaasi I agree with, but Cane and Goodhue walk back in once fit. Truly don't understand why people are so eager to write Cane off - he was our best player last year.
Not convinced Goodhue is better than ALB at 13 and he definitely isn't better than Havili at 12.

I'm not writing Cane off. I would expect him to be eased back in rather than walk straight in while Papalii does a fine job.

Havili's form makes it a nice dilemma to have, but I still think:

12. ALB
13. Goodhue

23. Havili

Is the best solution. Havili the ideal bench cover - can cover midfield and fullback to an elite level, and can cover wing and first-five passably in a pinch.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:25 am**

mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:21 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:17 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:06 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:02 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:58 am

Sure, but so are we. No Mo'unga, Smith, Whitelock, Goodhue, Cane and maybe Tu'ungafaasi is a third of our first choice XV. Just don't think we can afford to take Argentina lightly anymore and make further changes. They will be well up for this after last year.
I'm not convinced that Goodhue, Cane, and Tu'ungafaasi are obviously better than the current incumbents. Our depth is much stronger than Argentina's and almost all of our players have played well this year.
Tu'ungafaasi I agree with, but Cane and Goodhue walk back in once fit. Truly don't understand why people are so eager to write Cane off - he was our best player last year.
Not convinced Goodhue is better than ALB at 13 and he definitely isn't better than Havili at 12.

I'm not writing Cane off. I would expect him to be eased back in rather than walk straight in while Papalii does a fine job.

Havili's form makes it a nice dilemma to have, but I still think:

12. ALB
13. Goodhue

23. Havili

Is the best solution. Havili the ideal bench cover - can cover midfield and fullback to an elite level, and can cover wing and first-five passably in a pinch.

Disagree. Think Havili can be better than both ALB and Goodhue. He's a better playmaker, fine defender and he has a huge punt. His running game has been the equal of those two.

The point is there is little gained or lost should Goodhue walk back into the team.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:42 am**

Goodhue has never set the world on fire. Havili and LB a good pair, so far. Needs to keep that combination together, to develop. Haven't had a decent combination since Nonu and Snakey.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:42 am**

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:25 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:21 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:17 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:06 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:02 am

I'm not convinced that Goodhue, Cane, and Tu'ungafaasi are obviously better than the current incumbents. Our depth is much stronger than Argentina's and almost all of our players have played well this year.
Tu'ungafaasi I agree with, but Cane and Goodhue walk back in once fit. Truly don't understand why people are so eager to write Cane off - he was our best player last year.
Not convinced Goodhue is better than ALB at 13 and he definitely isn't better than Havili at 12.

I'm not writing Cane off. I would expect him to be eased back in rather than walk straight in while Papalii does a fine job.

Havili's form makes it a nice dilemma to have, but I still think:

12. ALB
13. Goodhue

23. Havili

Is the best solution. Havili the ideal bench cover - can cover midfield and fullback to an elite level, and can cover wing and first-five passably in a pinch.
Disagree. Think Havili can be better than both ALB and Goodhue. He's a better playmaker, fine defender and he has a huge punt. His running game has been the equal of those two.

The point is there is little gained or lost should Goodhue walk back into the team.

Think Goodhue would need to show some form first, hasn't been great of late when he has been on the field. Hansen had Goodhue at 12 and ALB at 13, not sure if Foster agrees with that config. I am a big fan of ALB whether he is a 12 or 13, and he and Havili look the best combo for me. Is Tupaea still with the squad. I had wondered if Jordie would get a run at second five, but I guess he is just too valuable at the back with his copybook fielding of high kicks.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:57 am**

We're a bit light on the wings. Would have liked to have seen Jordan on the right or at fullback, not that Jordy did much wrong last week....

I agree with those that favour a Havili ALB pairing at thus stage of the season.

This is a big game for Jacobson and Papali'i.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:00 am**

Ted. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:57 am We're a bit light on the wings. Would have liked to have seen Jordan on the right or at fullback, not that Jordy did much wrong last week....

I agree with those that favour a Havili ALB pairing at thus stage of the season.

This is a big game for Jacobson and Papali'i.

I would definitely keep Havili and ALB together -- they already look good but will only improve with more playing time as a unit.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:03 am**

Goodhue was our best back, arguably best player, in the 2019 semi. He's also the best defensive centre in the country by a margin imo. I think his growth has been unfortunately stunted a little by being shunted between 12 and 13, but I maintain that with consistent time at 13 he is the best centre in the country.

Conrad Smith also thinks so in this video, and his opinion on centres carries a bit of weight with me.

https://youtu.be/PVDXX-O_8fo?t=451

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:06 am**

Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:00 am
Ted. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:57 am We're a bit light on the wings. Would have liked to have seen Jordan on the right or at fullback, not that Jordy did much wrong last week....

I agree with those that favour a Havili ALB pairing at thus stage of the season.

This is a big game for Jacobson and Papali'i.
I would definitely keep Havili and ALB together -- they already look good but will only improve with more playing time as a unit.

So would I. You could have Goodhue in the 22 shirt covering the midfield provided you have first five cover elsewhere.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:06 am**

Ted. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:57 am We're a bit light on the wings. Would have liked to have seen Jordan on the right or at fullback, not that Jordy did much wrong last week....

I agree with those that favour a Havili ALB pairing at thus stage of the season.

This is a big game for Jacobson and Papali'i.

Don't see the Pumas announced yet, but if the loosies do alright against Matera and Kremer et al, then that will be a feather in their caps. Although from what I've seen Matera, usually so good, isn't in great form so far this year and Kremer has been at lock or on the bench. I would think the Pumas would go back to what worked so well for them last year.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:11 am**

mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:03 am Goodhue was our best back, arguably best player, in the 2019 semi. He's also the best defensive centre in the country by a margin imo. I think his growth has been unfortunately stunted a little by being shunted between 12 and 13, but I maintain that with consistent time at 13 he is the best centre in the country.

Conrad Smith also thinks so in this video, and his opinion on centres carries a bit of weight with me.

https://youtu.be/PVDXX-O_8fo?t=451

Lets look at the stats from the RWC semi game:

Attack ALB: 67m run, 6 defenders beaten, 2 offloads
Attack JG: 62m run, 3 defenders beaten, 1 offload, 3 clean breaks

Defense ALB: 16 tackles 1 missed tackle
Defense JG: 9 tackles 1 missed tackle

I'm not arguing that ALB is better than Jack Goodhue. I'm just saying there is not much between them. Given that Goodhue hasn't showed solid form at 13 for a couple of years having played mainly at 12 I would say that there is no foregone conclusion that he walks into the team.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:22 am**

obelixtim wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:42 am Goodhue has never set the world on fire. Havili and LB a good pair, so far. Needs to keep that combination together, to develop. Haven't had a decent combination since Nonu and Snakey.

Crotty and ALB were pretty fcuking good in 2016 but Hansen kept changing the midfield combination, so much so he had no idea who his best combo was by the time 2019 rolled around.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:35 am**

For me it’s hard to evaluate exactly where Goodhue is because Of his time out.

Someone - Mr. B ? - made a great comment recently that incumbents typically go back into the team. I’m not convinced that applies to Goodhue.

Really looking forward to this weekend - great to see where all the teams are at.

The fact that the ABs are missing five of their best players makes it interesting. You got to think that the ABs are smarting from the loss last year.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:49 am**

obelixtim wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:42 am Goodhue has never set the world on fire. Havili and LB a good pair, so far. Needs to keep that combination together, to develop. Haven't had a decent combination since Nonu and Snakey.

Pure revisionism. Some people really have short memories.

Goodhue was a revelation in 2018 and one of our best in 2019. He was still perfectly serviceable last year despite being played out of position.

I hope that next year we get to see a Havili/Goodhue midfield for the Crusaders, so that Goodhue can return to shining in his best position.

I know I'll be accused of Crusaders bias, but for me, a fit Goodhue playing at 13 is a strong World XV candidate.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:57 am**

Goodhue is a fine 13 at international level but as a 12 I thought he was mediocre - barely international standard.

The good news is that assuming both Havili and Goodhue are fit they should be the preferred midfield at the Crusaders next year.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:58 am**

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:57 am Goodhue is a fine 13 at international level but as a 12 I thought he was mediocre - barely international standard.

Something we can all agree on, although I wouldn't go so far as to say barely international standard.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:00 am**

mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:58 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:57 am Goodhue is a fine 13 at international level but as a 12 I thought he was mediocre - barely international standard.
Something we can all agree on, although I wouldn't go so far as to say barely international standard.

Stop gap at best. I think both our 10s look much better this year with Havili at 12.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:02 am**

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:00 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:58 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:57 am Goodhue is a fine 13 at international level but as a 12 I thought he was mediocre - barely international standard.
Something we can all agree on, although I wouldn't go so far as to say barely international standard.
Stop gap at best. I think both our 10s look much better this year with Havili at 12.

There's no doubt about that. Goodhue is a 13 who can cover 12 in an emergency, and Havili is the ideal second playmaker to complement our first-fives.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:03 am**

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:57 am The good news is that assuming both Havili and Goodhue are fit they should be the preferred midfield at the Crusaders next year.

Canterblack backline edges ever closer:

10. Mo'unga
11. Bridge
12. Havili
13. Goodhue
14. Reece
15. Jordan

Lock it in for 2023.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:07 am**

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:19 am**

Pakia Pakia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:11 am
mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:03 am Goodhue was our best back, arguably best player, in the 2019 semi. He's also the best defensive centre in the country by a margin imo. I think his growth has been unfortunately stunted a little by being shunted between 12 and 13, but I maintain that with consistent time at 13 he is the best centre in the country.

Conrad Smith also thinks so in this video, and his opinion on centres carries a bit of weight with me.

https://youtu.be/PVDXX-O_8fo?t=451
Lets look at the stats from the RWC semi game:

Attack ALB: 67m run, 6 defenders beaten, 2 offloads
Attack JG: 62m run, 3 defenders beaten, 1 offload, 3 clean breaks

Defense ALB: 16 tackles 1 missed tackle
Defense JG: 9 tackles 1 missed tackle

I'm not arguing that ALB is better than Jack Goodhue. I'm just saying there is not much between them. Given that Goodhue hasn't showed solid form at 13 for a couple of years having played mainly at 12 I would say that there is no foregone conclusion that he walks into the team.

Those are interesting stats from the semi that shall not speak its name; they're pretty good from both players and you wouldn't think they would be on the losing side. Just shows we certainly didn't lose the game in the midfield.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:25 am**

Carfer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:07 am

Matera, Kremer & Bruni as the loosies. I've been impressed with Bruni this year. I think the loosies will be key in this test.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:31 am**

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:11 am
Carfer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:07 am
That's a pretty good looking team, Carfer.

652 caps for starters
137 caps for the finishers

Miotti is not with the 22. If Sanchez has a problem, Mallia would play FH and Boffeli would come in as FB, I guess.

15. Juan Cruz Mallía (9)
14. Bautista Delguy (20)
13. Matías Moroni (51)
12. Jerónimo De La Fuente (61)
11. Santiago Cordero (40)
10. Nicolás Sánchez (89)
9. Gonzalo Bertranou (31)
8. Rodrigo Bruni (12)
7. Marcos Kremer (37)
6. Pablo Matera (74)
5. Matías Alemanno (69)
4. Guido Petti (60)
3. Santiago Medrano (26)
2. Julián Montoya - captain (68)
1. Facundo Gigena (5)

Replacements:

16. Facundo Bosch (9)
17. Carlos Muzzio (1)
18. Enrique Pieretto (26)
19. Tomás Lavanini (61)
20. Juan Martín González Samso (2)
21. Gonzalo García (0)
22. Santiago Chocobares (7)
23. Emiliano Boffelli (31)

(Test caps in brackets)

Head Coach: Mario Ledesma

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am**

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:25 am If they were all fit I’d be starting Havili and Goodhue at 12 and 13 with ALB as cover for both on the bench. He can genuinely excel at both whereas I think Goodhue merely covers at 12 while being excellent at 13. Havili owns 12 right now and we need to develop Petaea there.

I want to see players in their best positions. We do have a surprising number of players though, who can play well in two or more spots.

I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:35 am**

Nicolas Sanchez will make history against the All Blacks.

The 10 player from Tucuman will wear the Pumas jersey for the 90th time and will become the player with the most appearances in the Argentine national team!

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:37 am**

Carfer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:35 am Nicolas Sanchez will make history against the All Blacks.

The 10 player from Tucuman will wear the Pumas jersey for the 90th time and will become the player with the most appearances in the Argentine national team!

Wow that's an awesome achievement for him

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:48 am**

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:25 am If they were all fit I’d be starting Havili and Goodhue at 12 and 13 with ALB as cover for both on the bench. He can genuinely excel at both whereas I think Goodhue merely covers at 12 while being excellent at 13. Havili owns 12 right now and we need to develop Petaea there.

I want to see players in their best positions. We do have a surprising number of players though, who can play well in two or more spots.
I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.

I have to agree but I know I will be accused of being perhaps slightly biased.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:56 am**

Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:48 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:25 am If they were all fit I’d be starting Havili and Goodhue at 12 and 13 with ALB as cover for both on the bench. He can genuinely excel at both whereas I think Goodhue merely covers at 12 while being excellent at 13. Havili owns 12 right now and we need to develop Petaea there.

I want to see players in their best positions. We do have a surprising number of players though, who can play well in two or more spots.
I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.
I have to agree but I know I will be accused of being perhaps slightly biased.

He isn't. Was trying to look this up and failed; how many games has Goodhue started for the ABs at 13 versus how many he has started at 12?

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:57 am**

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:53 am
Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:48 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.
I have to agree but I know I will be accused of being perhaps slightly biased.
Cantahaters can shove it up their Cantacloacqa

Saying Goodhue is not the best 13 in the country and hating Canterbury are not mutually exclusive.

I sit on the fence when it comes to Goodhue being the best 13. Not much between him and ALB.

Happy to support either player.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:03 am**

Whatever wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:56 am
Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:48 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:25 am If they were all fit I’d be starting Havili and Goodhue at 12 and 13 with ALB as cover for both on the bench. He can genuinely excel at both whereas I think Goodhue merely covers at 12 while being excellent at 13. Havili owns 12 right now and we need to develop Petaea there.

I want to see players in their best positions. We do have a surprising number of players though, who can play well in two or more spots.
I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.
I have to agree but I know I will be accused of being perhaps slightly biased.
He isn't. Was trying to look this up and failed; how many games has Goodhue started for the ABs at 13 versus how many he has started at 12?

He is.

STARTING POSITIONS
Jersey Number 12 : 5
Jersey Number 13 : 12

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:16 am**

Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:03 am
Whatever wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:56 am
Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:48 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am
I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.
I have to agree but I know I will be accused of being perhaps slightly biased.
He isn't. Was trying to look this up and failed; how many games has Goodhue started for the ABs at 13 versus how many he has started at 12?
He is.

STARTING POSITIONS
Jersey Number 12 : 5
Jersey Number 13 : 12

Thanks Kiwias. Assume those '5' would be with ALB at 13. When he was at 13, could be SBW, Laumape or Crotty inside.

Oh, and he isn't (not for 2 years at least).

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:41 am**

Whatever wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:56 am
Kiwias wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:48 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:25 am If they were all fit I’d be starting Havili and Goodhue at 12 and 13 with ALB as cover for both on the bench. He can genuinely excel at both whereas I think Goodhue merely covers at 12 while being excellent at 13. Havili owns 12 right now and we need to develop Petaea there.

I want to see players in their best positions. We do have a surprising number of players though, who can play well in two or more spots.
I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.
I have to agree but I know I will be accused of being perhaps slightly biased.
He isn't. Was trying to look this up and failed; how many games has Goodhue started for the ABs at 13 versus how many he has started at 12?

17 starts total. 12 of those at 13, and 5 and 12 (all last year).

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:47 am**

This is a 50/50.
Argies at breakdown, selection consistency, experience and Sanchez sharpshooter.
Rieko Ioane and Jordan AB try scorers last week out of starting xv.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:49 am**

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:24 am We've been through this before...

Razor played Goodhue at 12 for a season after Crotty went because he had no-one else to put there while he could play Ennor and then Fai'inganuku at 13.

For whatever reason, Fozzie decided to do the same and ended up playing both ALB and Goodhue at their mutually weakest midfield spots instead of their best.

Goodhue's starting stats at 12 have more to do with the strange selection priorities of the coaching panel than the relative merits of both players.

Talking about the ABs not that South Island team, and it started under Hansen. I can see the rationale; Goodhue is a big unit who runs hard and straight and can offload, ALB more mercurial and a good decision-maker who finds ways to get the ball to the outsides - so you might think JG 12 & ALB 13. I actually like the fact that they could mix and match - it's good that both are adept at either 12 or 13.

Happy with Havili and ALB for now though. Goodhue, or anyone else, needs to force their way in.

Edit: Might have been wrong about starting under Hansen. Super-coach Foster may have been the man that decided Goodhue is a 12 and ALB a 13. Jury still out.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:38 am**

As Foster intimated, there is a plan to get through this run of five tests on the bounce. Five to six changes each test feels both manageable, and the right thing to do to keep bodies fresh. No one will play five in a row – injury permitting – and that’s helped by having the depth of Voltaire in this squad.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... -his-depth

1) Hinton is so far up his own ass. An absolute slog to read.

2) I find it hard to believe that the plan is that no one starts all five of these games? Surely at the very least Beauden will have to, with no other 10s on tour? If anyone does get a week off, it'll have to be next week (which is a massive risk in itself after last year) as we'll need all hands on deck for the Boks.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:48 am**

guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:25 am If they were all fit I’d be starting Havili and Goodhue at 12 and 13 with ALB as cover for both on the bench. He can genuinely excel at both whereas I think Goodhue merely covers at 12 while being excellent at 13. Havili owns 12 right now and we need to develop Petaea there.

I want to see players in their best positions. We do have a surprising number of players though, who can play well in two or more spots.
I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.

He could well be mate, but All Blacks aren't in the country ALB is over in Aus with them

Yep I like Goodhue, just reckon ALB has been better 13 last couple of years.

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:10 am**

Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:48 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:43 am
Dan54. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:34 am
guy smiley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:25 am If they were all fit I’d be starting Havili and Goodhue at 12 and 13 with ALB as cover for both on the bench. He can genuinely excel at both whereas I think Goodhue merely covers at 12 while being excellent at 13. Havili owns 12 right now and we need to develop Petaea there.

I want to see players in their best positions. We do have a surprising number of players though, who can play well in two or more spots.
I would start with ALB everyday, and think him and Havili got the makings of a good combo. Lets wait and see about Goodhue, bit I really see a bench of TJP, BB and Dmacor Goodhue when everyone fit. To me if Goodhue is not as good as ALB at 12, no reason for Goodhue to start at 13 if ALB is better there too. If there was an injury ALB could go to 12 at a pinch, and if Reiko is on wing he can also cover 13 at a pinch, even if I prefer him on the wing. We are slowly getting into good plave with our midfield.
Goodhue is the best 13 in the country.
He could well be mate, but All Blacks aren't in the country ALB is over in Aus with them

Yep I like Goodhue, just reckon ALB has been better 13 last couple of years.

Agree with ALB in 13, offensively and defensively he’s been a solid performer, dependable and part of the solid spine that every team needs. Havilli has been something of a revelation in 12 this year. Their combination has been strong, and the requirement to defend them closely has improved options for the inside backs to exploit, as well as space for the loose forwards.

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