Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

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CM11
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by CM11 »

Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.
I think we're well past your definition of racism and we ain't going back. It's essentially anything that offends now, even if there isn't any malice or attempt to treat differently.

Take ER's example from the other day where he identified a kid based on colour and got daggers from everyone else. I remember, ridiculously, trying to avoid the same with my kids to identify the only black man they knew at the time so as not to give them the impression it's ok to single out people by colour but in reality it should be no different than identifying someone by any other characteristic. This is the real difficulty with BLM. Every time this comes up the black movement, in an attempt not to be seen as different, set themselves up as different.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by CM11 »

Anyone following the Noah Donohoe case? Sounds like it might not end well at this stage. Fingers crossed I'm wrong there.
MunsterMan!!!!!
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by MunsterMan!!!!! »

Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.

The problem in this populist age is that simplicity is winning out time and time again on both sides and fundamentalist /zealots /crazies/load mouths are stealing the airwaves and the bandwidth, turning everything into a tinderbox. Real racism can't be discussion.

It's fair to say as white, straight, males we won the prejudice lottery and even in now when we (under 45s) growing up Irish is great, we get a bit of stereotyping but who doesn't. We don't really know what its like to be stared at, insults and general shat upon regularly and we don't see their perspective.

I don't get this whole white privilege nonsense either, nobody should have to apologise for the way they are born, only their shit behaviour.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by alliswell »

Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.
Well sure we've had the chat now and a lot of people are clearly bothered by it so there's no reason to do it anymore. And surely it's a good thing that's more widely known than it was before, no?
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CM11
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by CM11 »

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.

The problem in this populist age is that simplicity is winning out time and time again on both sides and fundamentalist /zealots /crazies/load mouths are stealing the airwaves and the bandwidth, turning everything into a tinderbox. Real racism can't be discussion.

It's fair to say as white, straight, males we won the prejudice lottery and even in now when we (under 45s) growing up Irish is great, we get a bit of stereotyping but who doesn't. We don't really know what its like to be stared at, insults and general shat upon regularly and we don't see their perspective.

I don't get this whole white privilege nonsense either, nobody should have to apologise for the way they are born, only their shit behaviour.
:thumbup:

It's a big issue with sexism aswell. As a man, I'm meant to feel guilty for the shitty behaviour of other men. Makes any feminist discussion uncomfortable because, ironically, men all get lumped in together.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by CM11 »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0 ... -tax-bill/

It was flagged at the time but I just knew it was going to become a stick to beat the government with.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by camroc1 »

CM11 wrote:Anyone following the Noah Donohoe case? Sounds like it might not end well at this stage. Fingers crossed I'm wrong there.
It's very sad.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by camroc1 »

CM11 wrote:https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0 ... -tax-bill/

It was flagged at the time but I just knew it was going to become a stick to beat the government with.
A very double edged sword for the SJWs though, who rail on about tax evasion and avoidance ad nauseum.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Liathroidigloine »

CM11 wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.
I think we're well past your definition of racism and we ain't going back. It's essentially anything that offends now, even if there isn't any malice or attempt to treat differently.

Take ER's example from the other day where he identified a kid based on colour and got daggers from everyone else. I remember, ridiculously, trying to avoid the same with my kids to identify the only black man they knew at the time so as not to give them the impression it's ok to single out people by colour but in reality it should be no different than identifying someone by any other characteristic. This is the real difficulty with BLM. Every time this comes up the black movement, in an attempt not to be seen as different, set themselves up as different.
I'd hate to be a cop in Ireland or England trying to arrest a black person. More camera's on you than at the Oscars.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

camroc1 wrote:
lilyw wrote:
camroc1 wrote:Very interesting research from the ESRI on measuring Irish economic growth.
While foreign multinationals make a valuable contribution, the success of the Irish economy “now depends very heavily on the progress of domestic business”, a study by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) has concluded.

In a research paper entitled Understanding recent trends in the Irish economy, economist John FitzGerald suggests that the economy here grew by about 5 per cent a year between 2013 and 2018.

This is considerably less than the reported growth numbers and a fraction of the 25 per cent reported in 2015, which was derided internationally as leprechaun economics. A better measure of real growth here – and one that weeds out multinational distortions – is Net National Product (NNP), he said.

NNP is defined as the market value of a nation’s goods and services minus depreciation, often referred to as capital consumption.

Using recent Central Statistics Office (CSO) figures, Prof FitzGerald is able to assess the contribution to NNP from each industrial sector broken down by foreign and domestically-owned businesses.

“Instead of exceptional and erratic growth rates, as seen in the headline CSO data for GNI (gross national income), the pattern shown here for NNP is smoother and more plausible,” he said.

He noted that while foreign firms account for over half of the gross value added in the economy, they only account for a fifth of NNP and a quarter of the wage bill.


Foreign and domestic firms grew at a similar rate since the economy began to recover from the financial crisis in 2013, he said.

“While the contribution to growth of foreign firms has been concentrated in the manufacturing, IT, financial and distribution sectors, the growth of the domestic sector has been spread across the economy,” the research suggested.

In both the manufacturing and IT sectors, the contribution to NNP of domestic business is similar to that of foreign firms, it said.


“These results indicate that, while foreign multinational enterprises make a very valuable contribution to growth, the success of the economy now depends very heavily on the progress of domestic business,” it said.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/eco ... -1.4287438
It doesn't at any point explain why NNP is a "better measure of real growth". It's an alternative measure and looks at different things but why is it better?
Here's the actual paper - have a read :

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/public ... Gerald.pdf

And from the introduction to same :
The first significant change was the publication by the CSO of an adjusted GNI
measure – commonly referred to as GNI*. This removes many of the distortions
in GNI, including the effects of depreciation of aircraft leasing operations and of
the intellectual property of foreign-owned MNEs. It also excludes the income of
redomiciled PLCs.
While the GNI* measure was initially only available at current prices, in 2019 the
CSO published an experimental constant price GNI* figure.2 While useful as a
measure of what was happening in the aggregate economy, it did not give a good
idea of what industrial sectors were fuelling the growth in the economy, and of
the relative importance in that growth of foreign MNEs and domestic business. It
also showed surprising volatility, suggesting a small fall in the volume of GNI* in
2015 compared to the 25 per cent volume increase for GDP.
However, at the end of 2019, as part of the Institutional Sector Accounts, the CSO
published a full break-down by industrial sector of output for foreign-owned
MNES and domestic business.3 At last, this makes possible a detailed analysis of
the sectors that are growing rapidly and the relative importance of foreign MNEs.
It also makes it possible to provide a good measure of the development of the
aggregate economic welfare of those living in Ireland and how it has grown since
2013.
2 https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublic ... in-mgnicp/ 3 https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublic ... sanff2018/
4
This article uses these new CSO data to better understand key developments in
the economy since 2013. It shows how Net National Product (NNP) can be
decomposed by industrial sector and by ownership, foreign or domestic, to give a
much better understanding of what is driving growth in the economy. The article
suggests that NNP is a better measure of economic activity for this purpose than
GNI*. In particular, NNP allows the separation out of all the activity of foreign
MNEs which does not add to the economic welfare of Irish residents and, by
excluding all depreciation, it gives a better indication of the long-term sustainable
level of output.
When the adjusted data are analysed, they show that foreign MNEs contributed
about 20 per cent of NNP over the period 2013 to 2018. The stability over time in
their contribution to the welfare of Irish residents contrasts with the big increase
in their contribution to GVA over that period. The sectors where foreign MNEs
made a substantial contribution to NNP were manufacturing, distribution, IT
services and financial services. Interestingly the contribution to NNP of domestic
firms in the IT sector was quite close to that for foreign MNEs, in spite of their
much smaller GVA. Foreign MNEs accounted for 25 per cent of the wage bill over
the period 2013-2018, significantly larger than their contribution to NNP.
Finally, it is estimated that real NNP grew by an average of around 5.2 per cent a
year over the period 2013-2018, very close to the growth rate in the
experimental CSO GNI* aggregate. However, unlike GNI*, the contributions to
this growth from different sectors can now be separately identified.
There is also the fact that there isn't much about the Irish economy that John Fitsgerald doesn't know about.
Interesting paper, thanks for posting it.

From my reading, the Corporation Tax is outrageous. The MNC's contribute €7.9bn of the total take of €10.4bn yet is just 21% of NNP. Corporation tax is over 25% of the contribution of MNC's to NNP. It's clear that the biggest beneficiary of MNC's is the government and government expenditure, it is grossly disproportionate to real activity yet the loony left go on about paying a "fair share".

This should be properly reported. The angle of reporting of this should shift though, move it away from the numbers, move to to "world justice". Us trying to pick pocket Apple's global profits as demanded to pay for Sinn Féin goodies is directly taking from the pockets of poor Americans and people in the third world.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Floppykid »

CM11 wrote:
MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.

The problem in this populist age is that simplicity is winning out time and time again on both sides and fundamentalist /zealots /crazies/load mouths are stealing the airwaves and the bandwidth, turning everything into a tinderbox. Real racism can't be discussion.

It's fair to say as white, straight, males we won the prejudice lottery and even in now when we (under 45s) growing up Irish is great, we get a bit of stereotyping but who doesn't. We don't really know what its like to be stared at, insults and general shat upon regularly and we don't see their perspective.

I don't get this whole white privilege nonsense either, nobody should have to apologise for the way they are born, only their shit behaviour.
:thumbup:

It's a big issue with sexism aswell. As a man, I'm meant to feel guilty for the shitty behaviour of other men. Makes any feminist discussion uncomfortable because, ironically, men all get lumped in together.
Well put all.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Floppykid »

Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.
:thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Mullet 2 »

CM11 wrote:Not the same Mullet. It's completely different asking an Irish person (particularly one with a country accent) where they're from in the country compared to asking a black person with an Irish accent what country they're really from.

Now, for the most part it's naivety/ignorance rather than racism as a lot of people didn't grow up with much colour around but that's not much use to the black person being essentially told they don't belong/aren't seen as Irish.

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by camroc1 »

Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:Not the same Mullet. It's completely different asking an Irish person (particularly one with a country accent) where they're from in the country compared to asking a black person with an Irish accent what country they're really from.

Now, for the most part it's naivety/ignorance rather than racism as a lot of people didn't grow up with much colour around but that's not much use to the black person being essentially told they don't belong/aren't seen as Irish.

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
Agree.

We've already gone down that rabbit hole with the Traveller movement, and if anything, we should be trying to row back on a lot of special treatment travellers get, because, in the end, all it does is perpetuate their inequalities, rather than remove them.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by danthefan »

Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.
Reminds me of this

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/stat ... 58496?s=19
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Hellraiser »

Some people don't seem to be able to differentiate between citizenship and nationality.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by CM11 »

Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:Not the same Mullet. It's completely different asking an Irish person (particularly one with a country accent) where they're from in the country compared to asking a black person with an Irish accent what country they're really from.

Now, for the most part it's naivety/ignorance rather than racism as a lot of people didn't grow up with much colour around but that's not much use to the black person being essentially told they don't belong/aren't seen as Irish.

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
How am I asking you to treat people differently?

You wouldn't ask a white person with an Irish accent what country they're from so how am I asking you to do differently by suggesting you shouldn't ask a black person with an Irish accent what country they're from?
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Leinsterman »

danthefan wrote: Reminds me of this

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/stat ... 58496?s=19

The Tracey Ullman sketch below it is hilarious!
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by lilyw »

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.

The problem in this populist age is that simplicity is winning out time and time again on both sides and fundamentalist /zealots /crazies/load mouths are stealing the airwaves and the bandwidth, turning everything into a tinderbox. Real racism can't be discussion.

It's fair to say as white, straight, males we won the prejudice lottery and even in now when we (under 45s) growing up Irish is great, we get a bit of stereotyping but who doesn't. We don't really know what its like to be stared at, insults and general shat upon regularly and we don't see their perspective.

I don't get this whole white privilege nonsense either, nobody should have to apologise for the way they are born, only their shit behaviour.
I'm 57 (rather than under 45) and worked in England through the '80s and early '90s. I definitely experienced a level of what DP calls micro-aggression, and others call Racism. Being selected from the queue in Harwich & Heathrow (when returning from continental Europe) for a little more comprehensive chat; having those around me in the queue at a museum in London start to loudly tell Irish jokes & talk about how they hated the Irish as soon as they heard my accent, being passed over for service in a Manchester pub when the barman heard my accent, being ignored at customer meetings even though I was the subject matter expert ....

It all adds up to make you slightly uncomfortable (even though I had mainly English friends & almost never socialised in Irish circles, and in fact had positively-vetted clearance into GCHQ because of my subject matter expertise) and feeling slightly "other". I didn't at any stage feel physically threatened but it's still vaguely "off". It makes you uncomfortable in situations where there is no reason for you to be.
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Post by Boxcar Ira »

iarmhiman wrote:Watching Primetime.

The rise of Justin Barret and Gemtrails support particularly in rural areas is pretty chilling.
What I found intersting / worrying was John Waters persona.

Everyone else on display was bat-shit crazy and you can see their followers are currently the real dregs of society.

Waters could give them some real credibility in time. He's playing a game and he'll see out the loons like Gemma and Justin.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by CM11 »

https://www.thejournal.ie/brid-smith-ju ... 8-Jun2020/

Brid Smith doubling down. Does she understand just how ironic her comments are with regards to what would happen if plumbers and electricians were in power?

Anyway, seems like she wants to ignore the constitution and let the judges make stuff up as they go along depending on their own personal biases.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Boxcar Ira »

CM11 wrote:https://www.thejournal.ie/brid-smith-ju ... 8-Jun2020/

Brid Smith doubling down. Does she understand just how ironic her comments are with regards to what would happen if plumbers and electricians were in power?

Anyway, seems like she wants to ignore the constitution and let the judges make stuff up as they go along depending on their own personal biases.
It's no different really to Trump putting the boot in to judges. He wouldnt even be that extreme. Very sinister.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Mullet 2 »

CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:Not the same Mullet. It's completely different asking an Irish person (particularly one with a country accent) where they're from in the country compared to asking a black person with an Irish accent what country they're really from.

Now, for the most part it's naivety/ignorance rather than racism as a lot of people didn't grow up with much colour around but that's not much use to the black person being essentially told they don't belong/aren't seen as Irish.

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
How am I asking you to treat people differently?

You wouldn't ask a white person with an Irish accent what country they're from so how am I asking you to do differently by suggesting you shouldn't ask a black person with an Irish accent what country they're from?
You want me to refuse to ask I question I would automatically ask anybody else. It's the very definition of wanting me to treat people different.

If Josh Van Der Flier was chatting to me in the pub and introduced himself I would ask if he was originally Irish. Does that make me a racist? No it doesn't so I'll ask somebody with an African name the same question and you and the rest of the egg shell brigade can fúck off. I'm not having an importing of guilt for the crime of colonialism that we ourselves were victims of. Fúck that.
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by camroc1 »

Leinsterman wrote:
danthefan wrote: Reminds me of this

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/stat ... 58496?s=19

The Tracey Ullman sketch below it is hilarious!
And not that far from the bone ! Or is that phallocentric ?
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Post by camroc1 »

.
MunsterMan!!!!!
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by MunsterMan!!!!! »

lilyw wrote:
MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.

The problem in this populist age is that simplicity is winning out time and time again on both sides and fundamentalist /zealots /crazies/load mouths are stealing the airwaves and the bandwidth, turning everything into a tinderbox. Real racism can't be discussion.

It's fair to say as white, straight, males we won the prejudice lottery and even in now when we (under 45s) growing up Irish is great, we get a bit of stereotyping but who doesn't. We don't really know what its like to be stared at, insults and general shat upon regularly and we don't see their perspective.

I don't get this whole white privilege nonsense either, nobody should have to apologise for the way they are born, only their shit behaviour.
I'm 57 (rather than under 45) and worked in England through the '80s and early '90s. I definitely experienced a level of what DP calls micro-aggression, and others call Racism. Being selected from the queue in Harwich & Heathrow (when returning from continental Europe) for a little more comprehensive chat; having those around me in the queue at a museum in London start to loudly tell Irish jokes & talk about how they hated the Irish as soon as they heard my accent, being passed over for service in a Manchester pub when the barman heard my accent, being ignored at customer meetings even though I was the subject matter expert ....

It all adds up to make you slightly uncomfortable (even though I had mainly English friends & almost never socialised in Irish circles, and in fact had positively-vetted clearance into GCHQ because of my subject matter expertise) and feeling slightly "other". I didn't at any stage feel physically threatened but it's still vaguely "off". It makes you uncomfortable in situations where there is no reason for you to be.

and now imagine if you could be even more identifiable by your skin colour than your name/accent.
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Hellraiser
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Hellraiser »

CM11 wrote:https://www.thejournal.ie/brid-smith-ju ... 8-Jun2020/

Brid Smith doubling down. Does she understand just how ironic her comments are with regards to what would happen if plumbers and electricians were in power?

Anyway, seems like she wants to ignore the constitution and let the judges make stuff up as they go along depending on their own personal biases.

She'll be suspended from the Dáil.
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alliswell
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by alliswell »

Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:Not the same Mullet. It's completely different asking an Irish person (particularly one with a country accent) where they're from in the country compared to asking a black person with an Irish accent what country they're really from.

Now, for the most part it's naivety/ignorance rather than racism as a lot of people didn't grow up with much colour around but that's not much use to the black person being essentially told they don't belong/aren't seen as Irish.

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
How am I asking you to treat people differently?

You wouldn't ask a white person with an Irish accent what country they're from so how am I asking you to do differently by suggesting you shouldn't ask a black person with an Irish accent what country they're from?
You want me to refuse to ask I question I would automatically ask anybody else. It's the very definition of wanting me to treat people different.

If Josh Van Der Flier was chatting to me in the pub and introduced himself I would ask if he was originally Irish. Does that make me a racist? No it doesn't so I'll ask somebody with an African name the same question and you and the rest of the egg shell brigade can fúck off. I'm not having an importing of guilt for the crime of colonialism that we ourselves were victims of. Fúck that.
Why would you ask someone something if you knew there was a good chance it was something they didn't want to be asked? Sounds like you're the one working hard to be offended here.
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danthefan
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by danthefan »

CM11 wrote:https://www.thejournal.ie/brid-smith-ju ... 8-Jun2020/

Brid Smith doubling down. Does she understand just how ironic her comments are with regards to what would happen if plumbers and electricians were in power?

Anyway, seems like she wants to ignore the constitution and let the judges make stuff up as they go along depending on their own personal biases.
She's a weasel. Calling him right wing is clearly pejorative or at least intended to be. To they say she's not having a go at him is just dishonest.
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Hellraiser
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Hellraiser »

CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:Not the same Mullet. It's completely different asking an Irish person (particularly one with a country accent) where they're from in the country compared to asking a black person with an Irish accent what country they're really from.

Now, for the most part it's naivety/ignorance rather than racism as a lot of people didn't grow up with much colour around but that's not much use to the black person being essentially told they don't belong/aren't seen as Irish.

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
How am I asking you to treat people differently?

You wouldn't ask a white person with an Irish accent what country they're from so how am I asking you to do differently by suggesting you shouldn't ask a black person with an Irish accent what country they're from?

Seriously? :uhoh:
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HighKingLeinster
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by HighKingLeinster »

Hellraiser wrote:
CM11 wrote:https://www.thejournal.ie/brid-smith-ju ... 8-Jun2020/

Brid Smith doubling down. Does she understand just how ironic her comments are with regards to what would happen if plumbers and electricians were in power?

Anyway, seems like she wants to ignore the constitution and let the judges make stuff up as they go along depending on their own personal biases.

She'll be suspended from the Dáil.
she'll love that. Being "silenced by the man" for speaking up for the working masses
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Floppykid »

Hellraiser wrote:
CM11 wrote:https://www.thejournal.ie/brid-smith-ju ... 8-Jun2020/

Brid Smith doubling down. Does she understand just how ironic her comments are with regards to what would happen if plumbers and electricians were in power?

Anyway, seems like she wants to ignore the constitution and let the judges make stuff up as they go along depending on their own personal biases.

She'll be suspended from the Dáil.
Hopefully, though I’m pessimistic
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camroc1
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by camroc1 »

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
lilyw wrote:
MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.

The problem in this populist age is that simplicity is winning out time and time again on both sides and fundamentalist /zealots /crazies/load mouths are stealing the airwaves and the bandwidth, turning everything into a tinderbox. Real racism can't be discussion.

It's fair to say as white, straight, males we won the prejudice lottery and even in now when we (under 45s) growing up Irish is great, we get a bit of stereotyping but who doesn't. We don't really know what its like to be stared at, insults and general shat upon regularly and we don't see their perspective.

I don't get this whole white privilege nonsense either, nobody should have to apologise for the way they are born, only their shit behaviour.
I'm 57 (rather than under 45) and worked in England through the '80s and early '90s. I definitely experienced a level of what DP calls micro-aggression, and others call Racism. Being selected from the queue in Harwich & Heathrow (when returning from continental Europe) for a little more comprehensive chat; having those around me in the queue at a museum in London start to loudly tell Irish jokes & talk about how they hated the Irish as soon as they heard my accent, being passed over for service in a Manchester pub when the barman heard my accent, being ignored at customer meetings even though I was the subject matter expert ....

It all adds up to make you slightly uncomfortable (even though I had mainly English friends & almost never socialised in Irish circles, and in fact had positively-vetted clearance into GCHQ because of my subject matter expertise) and feeling slightly "other". I didn't at any stage feel physically threatened but it's still vaguely "off". It makes you uncomfortable in situations where there is no reason for you to be.

and now imagine if you could be even more identifiable by your skin colour than your name/accent.
And why would anybody in Ireland pick on anybody because of their name/Accent ? We don't have a history of beating confessions out of them, and banging them up in gaol for no good reason other than their name/ethnicity.

There are perhaps two groups in Irish society, one home grown, and one immigrant, that I'm pretty damn sure do get profiled, but that's because, rightly or wrongly, of the nature of most people's interaction with them; and the colour of their skin doesn't play any part in why that is done.
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HighKingLeinster
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by HighKingLeinster »

Floppykid wrote:
Hellraiser wrote:
CM11 wrote:https://www.thejournal.ie/brid-smith-ju ... 8-Jun2020/

Brid Smith doubling down. Does she understand just how ironic her comments are with regards to what would happen if plumbers and electricians were in power?

Anyway, seems like she wants to ignore the constitution and let the judges make stuff up as they go along depending on their own personal biases.

She'll be suspended from the Dáil.
Hopefully, though I’m pessimistic
hmm that doesnt sound like you
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Diego
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Diego »

Hellraiser wrote:Some people don't seem to be able to differentiate between citizenship and nationality.
:?
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Mullet 2
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Mullet 2 »

alliswell wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:Not the same Mullet. It's completely different asking an Irish person (particularly one with a country accent) where they're from in the country compared to asking a black person with an Irish accent what country they're really from.

Now, for the most part it's naivety/ignorance rather than racism as a lot of people didn't grow up with much colour around but that's not much use to the black person being essentially told they don't belong/aren't seen as Irish.

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
How am I asking you to treat people differently?

You wouldn't ask a white person with an Irish accent what country they're from so how am I asking you to do differently by suggesting you shouldn't ask a black person with an Irish accent what country they're from?
You want me to refuse to ask I question I would automatically ask anybody else. It's the very definition of wanting me to treat people different.

If Josh Van Der Flier was chatting to me in the pub and introduced himself I would ask if he was originally Irish. Does that make me a racist? No it doesn't so I'll ask somebody with an African name the same question and you and the rest of the egg shell brigade can fúck off. I'm not having an importing of guilt for the crime of colonialism that we ourselves were victims of. Fúck that.
Why would you ask someone something if you knew there was a good chance it was something they didn't want to be asked? Sounds like you're the one working hard to be offended here.
Who says they're offended by it? Una and a few young ones on Twitter desperate to have something interesting in their otherwise boring lives? Most Nigerians I speak to love to tell me about their heritage. I'd rather not pretend we're all the same thanks. I really dont care in that offends anyway

Unlike.most people I'm the same here as I am anywhere else
MunsterMan!!!!!
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by MunsterMan!!!!! »

camroc1 wrote: And why would anybody in Ireland pick on anybody because of their name/Accent ? We don't have a history of beating confessions out of them, and banging them up in gaol for no good reason other than their name/ethnicity.

There are perhaps two groups in Irish society, one home grown, and one immigrant, that I'm pretty damn sure do get profiled, but that's because, rightly or wrongly, of the nature of most people's interaction with them; and the colour of their skin doesn't play any part in why that is done.
What are you on about?

I was responding to lilyw message about his experience in the UK
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Mullet 2
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Mullet 2 »

lilyw wrote:
MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Nolanator wrote:The discussion about racism in Ireland isn't about police profiling and generational disadvantages, but less obvious stuff like "where are you originally from?" as a default question to a black person with an Irish accent.

I think that's fair enough. It's a default position I would have had a number of years ago because I was exposed to exactly zero black Irish people in my childhood (that I actually met, not counting Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott etc.).
That’s not racism though. Or “microaggression”. No matter how many times the extremists on twitter try to tell us it is. Racism is making prejudiced decisions against an individual belonging to a group to their detriment. Asking an innocent friendly question is not racism. The thought police are trying to redefine the word to a ridiculous standard.

The problem in this populist age is that simplicity is winning out time and time again on both sides and fundamentalist /zealots /crazies/load mouths are stealing the airwaves and the bandwidth, turning everything into a tinderbox. Real racism can't be discussion.

It's fair to say as white, straight, males we won the prejudice lottery and even in now when we (under 45s) growing up Irish is great, we get a bit of stereotyping but who doesn't. We don't really know what its like to be stared at, insults and general shat upon regularly and we don't see their perspective.

I don't get this whole white privilege nonsense either, nobody should have to apologise for the way they are born, only their shit behaviour.
I'm 57 (rather than under 45) and worked in England through the '80s and early '90s. I definitely experienced a level of what DP calls micro-aggression, and others call Racism. Being selected from the queue in Harwich & Heathrow (when returning from continental Europe) for a little more comprehensive chat; having those around me in the queue at a museum in London start to loudly tell Irish jokes & talk about how they hated the Irish as soon as they heard my accent, being passed over for service in a Manchester pub when the barman heard my accent, being ignored at customer meetings even though I was the subject matter expert ....

It all adds up to make you slightly uncomfortable (even though I had mainly English friends & almost never socialised in Irish circles, and in fact had positively-vetted clearance into GCHQ because of my subject matter expertise) and feeling slightly "other". I didn't at any stage feel physically threatened but it's still vaguely "off". It makes you uncomfortable in situations where there is no reason for you to be.

Have you considered it's because you're a cúnt? We're all Irish after all so you can't blame xenophobia here.
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camroc1
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by camroc1 »

Mullet 2 wrote:
alliswell wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:

Not really completely different at all

You want me to treat a black person different to a white person. I'm not going to do that. If they get 600 points they go to medicine in Trinity like everybody else. Aside from that if they want to feel so oppressed they can hop off. They or their parents asked us to come here. I have zero guilt and I wont be developing any.
How am I asking you to treat people differently?

You wouldn't ask a white person with an Irish accent what country they're from so how am I asking you to do differently by suggesting you shouldn't ask a black person with an Irish accent what country they're from?
You want me to refuse to ask I question I would automatically ask anybody else. It's the very definition of wanting me to treat people different.

If Josh Van Der Flier was chatting to me in the pub and introduced himself I would ask if he was originally Irish. Does that make me a racist? No it doesn't so I'll ask somebody with an African name the same question and you and the rest of the egg shell brigade can fúck off. I'm not having an importing of guilt for the crime of colonialism that we ourselves were victims of. Fúck that.
Why would you ask someone something if you knew there was a good chance it was something they didn't want to be asked? Sounds like you're the one working hard to be offended here.
Who says they're offended by it? Una and a few young ones on Twitter desperate to have something interesting in their otherwise boring lives? Most Nigerians I speak to love to tell me about their heritage. I'd rather not pretend we're all the same thanks. I really dont care in that offends anyway

Unlike.most people I'm the same here as I am anywhere else
Agree.

Most non-Irish taxi drivers generally have some fun getting me to pronounce their names properly when I ask the question. I think most people, wherever they were born, can tell the difference between friendly interest, and aggressive questioning.
Nolanator
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Re: Rugby NAMA thread Revisited Rugby

Post by Nolanator »

Hellraiser wrote:Some people don't seem to be able to differentiate between citizenship and nationality.
When does one become a national of a given country?
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