Planet Rugby Forum

Leinsterman wrote:Since I've bought it, I've done over 5000 miles.
I've been operating in full EV mode for exactly half those miles.
Combined mpg is currently 56mpg. I was only managing approx 30mpg in my old car so significant savings for my wallet.

Leinsterman wrote:Merc C350e

Gwenno wrote:We drove over the Beacons to Merthyr Tydfil in it. After crossing the highest point on the A470 on the way home, the 15 or so miles home 'cost' me about 3 miles because of the regenerative braking, the fact that it is almost all down hill. It clearly is so more efficient in terms of pence/mile compared with diesel (roughly 4 for electricity, 13 for diesel). I don't give shit about virtue signaling - I like to have a second car for emergencies, and for my younger son son to use when home, and the fact that I can 'fill the tank' at home is a great bonus. I've always been interested in electric cars, and I'm glad that they are now in reach.

Rinkals wrote:

Gwenno wrote:We drove over the Beacons to Merthyr Tydfil in it. After crossing the highest point on the A470 on the way home, the 15 or so miles home 'cost' me about 3 miles because of the regenerative braking, the fact that it is almost all down hill. It clearly is so more efficient in terms of pence/mile compared with diesel (roughly 4 for electricity, 13 for diesel). I don't give shit about virtue signaling - I like to have a second car for emergencies, and for my younger son son to use when home, and the fact that I can 'fill the tank' at home is a great bonus. I've always been interested in electric cars, and I'm glad that they are now in reach.

That's not the sort of thing that Bimbo wants to read: can't you throw in a couple of negatives in there? maybe that you were overtaken by a bicycle and a couple of sheep?

julian wrote:I wonder whether electric cars carbon footprint production matches or is higher than regular fuel cars. If electricity is produced from fossil fuels then is a total snobbery.

Leffe wrote:

julian wrote:I wonder whether electric cars carbon footprint production matches or is higher than regular fuel cars. If electricity is produced from fossil fuels then is a total snobbery.

I'd say not. Electric cars ensure cleaner air in cities, this is really important.

guy smiley wrote:

booji boy wrote:Colleague at work bought a second hand Nissan Leaf for his wife as their 'run about town' car. I live in a small regional town and it is a long way to other towns so given the limited range of the Leaf it is definitely just for buying groceries, dropping off and picking up kids from school etc. To go any further beyond the towns boundaries you'd definitely need a recharging station somewhere along the journey.

My sister and BiL live in West Melton, about 25km outside Christchurch. Both work in town, they use a second hand Leaf. I'm not sure of the battery size in theirs but over the year or so they've had it it's done everything they need from a car including multiple trips on weekends for shopping, visits etc along with the commute. It's cost them a recharger unit, which was fairly cheap to replace..

oh, and of course being virtue signallers par excellence they're charging it through the household PV array with back up from NZ's hydro powered grid. It's costing sweet f-all.

Geek wrote:Interesting that Dyson canned their planned electric car, stating that it wouldn't be commercially viable. A little worrying for those predicting a major shift away from ICE to motors.

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

merlin the happy pig wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

Ultimately I think Al-Air or Li-Air is the holy grail.
Li-Air is supposed to be theoretically capable of 10x the energy density of Li-ion, which would be of huge benefit in reducing mass and increasing range/performance of electric vehicles.

At that point some all-electric air travel becomes realistic.

merlin the happy pig wrote:

Geek wrote:Interesting that Dyson canned their planned electric car, stating that it wouldn't be commercially viable. A little worrying for those predicting a major shift away from ICE to motors.

I think this mostly relates to how difficult it is to be profitable as a car manufacturer rather than the pros/cons of electric power.

It's not a foregone conclusion, but battery prices continue to fall slowly but surely, and battery chemistry continues to improve.

Perhaps the biggest news in this space is the feasibility of batteries that last 1 million miles (1.6 million kms)
https://bigthink.com/technology-innovat ... le-battery.

Longer battery life obviously helps lessen some of the downsides of batteries, i.e. mining, recycling/toxic waste, and replacement cost.

Sensible Stephen wrote:

merlin the happy pig wrote:

Geek wrote:Interesting that Dyson canned their planned electric car, stating that it wouldn't be commercially viable. A little worrying for those predicting a major shift away from ICE to motors.

I think this mostly relates to how difficult it is to be profitable as a car manufacturer rather than the pros/cons of electric power.

It's not a foregone conclusion, but battery prices continue to fall slowly but surely, and battery chemistry continues to improve.

Perhaps the biggest news in this space is the feasibility of batteries that last 1 million miles (1.6 million kms)
https://bigthink.com/technology-innovat ... le-battery.

Longer battery life obviously helps lessen some of the downsides of batteries, i.e. mining, recycling/toxic waste, and replacement cost.

Probably hinges on a battery break through which from the latest couple of posts here seems like there might just be one around the corner?

Hydrogen seems to be very much in the picture still. For use in cars, but more importantly perhaps, also as a replacement for natural gas. Seems a bit dangerous, but looks like that is the way things are going.

julian wrote:I wonder whether electric cars carbon footprint production matches or is higher than regular fuel cars. If electricity is produced from fossil fuels then is a total snobbery.

Geek wrote:Interesting that Dyson canned their planned electric car, stating that it wouldn't be commercially viable. A little worrying for those predicting a major shift away from ICE to motors.

Leinsterman wrote:

Geek wrote:Interesting that Dyson canned their planned electric car, stating that it wouldn't be commercially viable. A little worrying for those predicting a major shift away from ICE to motors.

They would be starting from scratch though. Zero history of manufacturing cars so they would need to invest significantly in plant. It's not as if they could just wake up one morning and start making cars and turn a profit quickly.

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

But as always, the devil is in the details. What exactly are they talking about? There are lots of red flags in this article, starting with the fact that it is in the Daily Mail, which doesn’t exactly have a good reputation for high quality journalism. Also it makes it seem like this is the invention of one guy, rather than a lab, company, or even industry. That’s not realistic. There is also this:

Few will have heard of Jackson’s extraordinary invention. The reason, he says, is that since he and his company Metalectrique Ltd came up with a prototype a decade ago, he has faced determined opposition from the automobile industry establishment.

Sorry, but this conspiracy theory does not pass the smell test. New battery tech would not threaten the automotive industry, it would be a new option.

In any case, regardless of the sensational reporting, what are the actual facts of the battery itself. The inventor is Trevor Jackson, who claims to have made a breakthrough in aluminum-air (al-air) batteries. This technology is not new, it has been around since the 1960s, and is actually being used in some settings, like the military. This might be better described as a fuel cell than a battery, however. First – it is not rechargable. The energy comes from oxidizing aluminum:

This battery uses the oxidation of aluminum at the anode and the reduction of oxygen at the cathode to form a galvanic cell. In the process the aluminum is completely consumed to produce aluminum hydroxide. The metal air battery has a very attractive energy density because part of the reactants come from the air.

Aluminum is also a light metal, with good energy density. One technical limitation to widespread use of an al-air cell is that the electrolyte solution is very toxic. This is the breakthrough that Jackson claims, that he developed a new electrolyte solution that is so non-toxic you can drink it. He is not revealing his formula, saying it is proprietary, but he claims he has demonstrated his fuel cell to third parties. OK – let’s assume his core claim is true, that he has a new version of the al-air battery with a non-toxic electrolyte. Is this a good option for the next fleet of automobiles?

I think there are good reasons the automotive industry remains skeptical. There are practical considerations here. A Telsa lithium ion battery pack weighs 540 kg (1,200 lbs). Even at five times the energy density, a pack with a 300 mile range would weigh 240 pounds. Since the battery cannot be recharged, it would need to be swapped out. The driver would not be expected to lift a 240 pound battery, or more for longer range vehicles. You could break it up into many 20 pound batteries, or require a station with equipment to lift out the spent battery. Either way, this would require a new infrastructure that is not trivial.

All these spent batteries can be recycled to reclaim the aluminum, but that is an energy-dependent process. Basically you have to put more energy back in than what you got out from the battery. This is another required infrastructure. Requiring new infrastructure is not a deal-killer, if the advantages are worth it, but it is a significant barrier.

The potential advantages are the good energy density, and the fact that aluminum is cheap and abundant. You could use aluminum recycled from cans, for example, to make the batteries. But the non-rechargeable thing is a huge drawback. This would require an entirely new approach to electric vehicles, at the very least delaying adoption. You get a chicken-and-egg problem – will people buy the car before the infrastructure is ready, and who will build the infrastructure until there are enough users on the road? Such situations are frequent, and they can be bootstrapped by early adopters and industry and government investments to boost the infrastructure enough to lure in users. If we decide that this is the best way to go, we can make it happen.

But I am just not seeing the advantages necessary to make such a huge investment in a fairly dedicated infrastructure. Swapping out hundreds of pounds of batteries every few days doesn’t seem practical.

merlin the happy pig wrote:

Geek wrote:Interesting that Dyson canned their planned electric car, stating that it wouldn't be commercially viable. A little worrying for those predicting a major shift away from ICE to motors.

I think this mostly relates to how difficult it is to be profitable as a car manufacturer rather than the pros/cons of electric power.

It's not a foregone conclusion, but battery prices continue to fall slowly but surely, and battery chemistry continues to improve.

Perhaps the biggest news in this space is the feasibility of batteries that last 1 million miles (1.6 million kms)
https://bigthink.com/technology-innovat ... le-battery.

Longer battery life obviously helps lessen some of the downsides of batteries, i.e. mining, recycling/toxic waste, and replacement cost.

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

Fat Albert wrote:Hey folks, don't know if Slow Wing is still about but, despite his time scale prophecies being wildly inaccurate, I thought he/thee might like to know that I now drive an iPace

Great car but, achieved range on cold, rainy, nights is more like 150 miles than the rated 250.

Oh and Tesla have still lost $100k on every car they've delivered, thank God for the US tax payer

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Geek wrote:

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Geek wrote:

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Geek wrote:

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

message #2527204 wrote:

Geek wrote:

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Al-air was always dismissed due to the toxicity of its electrolyte. Aluminium is much more readily available than lithium, and easier to recycle.

It will be pretty difficult to sell an ice vehicle in the EU past 2025

guy smiley wrote:

Geek wrote:
Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Every building has the potential to be a small scale power station through pv arrays. The city of Adelaide has a trial underway connecting something like 20 000 houses to a virtual network and managing the power generated by their panels as a small scale smart grid, which includes the use of domestic batteries. Expand that simple idea into wider use across metro areas and you are on the way to providing a chunk of the demand.

dinsdale wrote:

Geek wrote:

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

The difference vs fusion is that batteries do actually work and have been improving slowly.

Whether batteries are the best energy storage medium for cars is still up for grabs - maybe fuel cells will work out - however electric motors are definitely the future.

guy smiley wrote:

Geek wrote:
Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Every building has the potential to be a small scale power station through pv arrays. The city of Adelaide has a trial underway connecting something like 20 000 houses to a virtual network and managing the power generated by their panels as a small scale smart grid, which includes the use of domestic batteries. Expand that simple idea into wider use across metro areas and you are on the way to providing a chunk of the demand.

Jason Walls is a political reporter for the New Zealand Herald

The Government is promising to ditch diesel-powered ministerial cars and is immediately purchasing another six new electric SUVs for the fleet.

The new vehicles will mean that roughly 40 per cent of the 72-vehicle ministerial Crown fleet is either fully electric, or a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. That's up from 2 per cent when the current Government took over in 2017.

As well as the new six vehicles, the Government is promising to replace the remaining diesel-powered cars with a greener option over the next two years. The cost of the new SUVs - as well as the replacements of the rest of the fleet - has not been released.

The move follows a surge in the number of Kiwis buying electric vehicles. According to figures from the Ministry of Transport, there are now more than 18,000 EVs on New Zealand's roads.

One of them is driven by National leader Simon Bridges, who made the switch in 2016 when he was Transport Minister.

The number of electric vehicles in New Zealand has been increasing rapidly. In 2016, there were just 2380 EV cars on the road, compared with almost 6000 in 2017 and 11,000 in 2018. The most popular EV is the Nissan Leaf and the majority of EVs are registered in Auckland, according to the data.

The Minister Responsible for Ministerial Services, Chris Hipkins, told the Herald that electric vehicles (EVs) offer potentially massive benefits to both the environment and the Government's back pocket.

"Low emission, environmentally sustainable, fit for purpose transport is an important priority for the Government," he said.

"We are playing a leadership role and intend to transition the full Crown car fleet to emissions-free vehicles by 2025/26."

Hipkins said that a transition over this period allows time for the electric market to grow. It also would help ensure taxpayers get value for money.

The Government also planned to establish more EV infrastructure including, such charging stations, over the coming years.

"In the meantime, we expect the new electric-powered vehicles to be used for urban trips within the main centres," Hipkins said.

Earlier this year, the Government unveiled a feebate scheme to encourage people to buy greener vehicles. The Government announced it would slash the price of imported electric and hybrid vehicles by up to $8000. But it is also planning to slap a new fee of up to $3000 on the import of vehicles with the highest greenhouse gas emissions.

"Most Kiwis want to buy a car that's good for the environment, but tell us the upfront cost and limited choice makes it a challenge," Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter said at the time.

But a cabinet paper looking into the scheme revealed a plan which would have put an extra up to $2000 in the back pocket of Kiwis buying electric cars was scrapped by the Government as it was considered to be "poor value for money".

carlos_c wrote:Can people stop saying "energy production" when they mean electricity... In UK majority of houses use gas for cooking and heating and vehicles use petrol/diesel........ Its going to take a lot a hell of a lot more wind farms to replace that energy requirement.

Geek wrote:

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

bimboman wrote:

Geek wrote:

Homer wrote:

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.

The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....

Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Honda are saying they’ll not be making any combustion only cars from 2022.

Of course if they actually successfully sell, the electricity network will be overwhelmed...