RIP the internal combustion engine!

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Homer
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Homer »

merlin the happy pig wrote:
Geek wrote:Interesting that Dyson canned their planned electric car, stating that it wouldn't be commercially viable. A little worrying for those predicting a major shift away from ICE to motors.
I think this mostly relates to how difficult it is to be profitable as a car manufacturer rather than the pros/cons of electric power.

It's not a foregone conclusion, but battery prices continue to fall slowly but surely, and battery chemistry continues to improve.

Perhaps the biggest news in this space is the feasibility of batteries that last 1 million miles (1.6 million kms)
https://bigthink.com/technology-innovat ... le-battery.

Longer battery life obviously helps lessen some of the downsides of batteries, i.e. mining, recycling/toxic waste, and replacement cost.
Yep, anyone can make an electric car. Making one that can sell in enough volume and at a price that gives a suitable return on investment is another thing........
Homer
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Homer »

message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
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Fat Albert
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Fat Albert »

Hey folks, don't know if Slow Wing is still about but, despite his time scale prophecies being wildly inaccurate, I thought he/thee might like to know that I now drive an iPace :P

Great car but, achieved range on cold, rainy, nights is more like 150 miles than the rated 250.

Oh and Tesla have still lost $100k on every car they've delivered, thank God for the US tax payer :blush:
bimboman
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by bimboman »

Fat Albert wrote:Hey folks, don't know if Slow Wing is still about but, despite his time scale prophecies being wildly inaccurate, I thought he/thee might like to know that I now drive an iPace :P

Great car but, achieved range on cold, rainy, nights is more like 150 miles than the rated 250.

Oh and Tesla have still lost $100k on every car they've delivered, thank God for the US tax payer :blush:

That’s two decent bottles of wine I didn’t get.

Tesla stock has flown in the last day or so, I can’t see it still.
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Leinsterman
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Leinsterman »

An ipace? Very nice. Know someone who got one recently and she absolutely loves it. I still think it looks a bit too "plastic" inside for a car that price. Still though, very nice to drive by all accounts.
Happy driving :thumbup:
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Geek
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Geek »

Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
bimboman
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by bimboman »

Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Honda are saying they’ll not be making any combustion only cars from 2022.

Of course if they actually successfully sell, the electricity network will be overwhelmed...
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guy smiley
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by guy smiley »

Geek wrote:
Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
Every building has the potential to be a small scale power station through pv arrays. The city of Adelaide has a trial underway connecting something like 20 000 houses to a virtual network and managing the power generated by their panels as a small scale smart grid, which includes the use of domestic batteries. Expand that simple idea into wider use across metro areas and you are on the way to providing a chunk of the demand.
dinsdale
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by dinsdale »

Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
The difference vs fusion is that batteries do actually work and have been improving slowly.

Whether batteries are the best energy storage medium for cars is still up for grabs - maybe fuel cells will work out - however electric motors are definitely the future.
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message #2527204
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by message #2527204 »

Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
Al-air was always dismissed due to the toxicity of its electrolyte. Aluminium is much more readily available than lithium, and easier to recycle.

It will be pretty difficult to sell an ice vehicle in the EU past 2025
dinsdale
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by dinsdale »

message #2527204 wrote:
Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
Al-air was always dismissed due to the toxicity of its electrolyte. Aluminium is much more readily available than lithium, and easier to recycle.

It will be pretty difficult to sell an ice vehicle in the EU past 2025
As was pointed out further up the thread, Al-Air batteries are non rechargeable which rules them out for most private use cases. Maybe suitable for buses etc. where there's a depot who can swap the batteries regularly.
bimboman
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by bimboman »

guy smiley wrote:
Geek wrote:
Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
Every building has the potential to be a small scale power station through pv arrays. The city of Adelaide has a trial underway connecting something like 20 000 houses to a virtual network and managing the power generated by their panels as a small scale smart grid, which includes the use of domestic batteries. Expand that simple idea into wider use across metro areas and you are on the way to providing a chunk of the demand.

The batteries have to work then as the issue with electric car demand is it’s night time demand.
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Geek
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Geek »

dinsdale wrote:
Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
The difference vs fusion is that batteries do actually work and have been improving slowly.

Whether batteries are the best energy storage medium for cars is still up for grabs - maybe fuel cells will work out - however electric motors are definitely the future.
I agree to an extent, however the comparison to fission is with the expectation of a major change (in spite of all evidence to the contrary). Batteries have been slowly improving at a very steady rate for nearly 100 years. And yet, there is still an expectation amongst those who have just dipped into battery tech that they have uncovered the game-changer which is going to make a dramatic improvement. It seems unlikely.

Fuel cells are also not the newest tech now. My old uni (University of Birmingham) has had fuel cell cars running round campus for nearly 15 years now. Hydrogen fuel cells themselves are nearly 200 years old. Eventually, it may start to take off, but the biggest challenge (I think) is with the storage of hydrogen in large quantities.
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Geek
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Geek »

guy smiley wrote:
Geek wrote:
Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
Every building has the potential to be a small scale power station through pv arrays. The city of Adelaide has a trial underway connecting something like 20 000 houses to a virtual network and managing the power generated by their panels as a small scale smart grid, which includes the use of domestic batteries. Expand that simple idea into wider use across metro areas and you are on the way to providing a chunk of the demand.
I'd love that to work over in the UK. I fear the efficiency of PV cells is very low at the low light levels we typically get over here. Hence why most renewables here are going in the direction of wind and biomass.
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kiweez
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by kiweez »

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12295775

Power play: Government bolsters green fleet, almost half of all ministerial cars now an EV
Jason Walls is a political reporter for the New Zealand Herald

The Government is promising to ditch diesel-powered ministerial cars and is immediately purchasing another six new electric SUVs for the fleet.

The new vehicles will mean that roughly 40 per cent of the 72-vehicle ministerial Crown fleet is either fully electric, or a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. That's up from 2 per cent when the current Government took over in 2017.

As well as the new six vehicles, the Government is promising to replace the remaining diesel-powered cars with a greener option over the next two years. The cost of the new SUVs - as well as the replacements of the rest of the fleet - has not been released.

The move follows a surge in the number of Kiwis buying electric vehicles. According to figures from the Ministry of Transport, there are now more than 18,000 EVs on New Zealand's roads.

One of them is driven by National leader Simon Bridges, who made the switch in 2016 when he was Transport Minister.

The number of electric vehicles in New Zealand has been increasing rapidly. In 2016, there were just 2380 EV cars on the road, compared with almost 6000 in 2017 and 11,000 in 2018. The most popular EV is the Nissan Leaf and the majority of EVs are registered in Auckland, according to the data.

The Minister Responsible for Ministerial Services, Chris Hipkins, told the Herald that electric vehicles (EVs) offer potentially massive benefits to both the environment and the Government's back pocket.

"Low emission, environmentally sustainable, fit for purpose transport is an important priority for the Government," he said.

"We are playing a leadership role and intend to transition the full Crown car fleet to emissions-free vehicles by 2025/26."

Hipkins said that a transition over this period allows time for the electric market to grow. It also would help ensure taxpayers get value for money.

The Government also planned to establish more EV infrastructure including, such charging stations, over the coming years.

"In the meantime, we expect the new electric-powered vehicles to be used for urban trips within the main centres," Hipkins said.

Earlier this year, the Government unveiled a feebate scheme to encourage people to buy greener vehicles. The Government announced it would slash the price of imported electric and hybrid vehicles by up to $8000. But it is also planning to slap a new fee of up to $3000 on the import of vehicles with the highest greenhouse gas emissions.

"Most Kiwis want to buy a car that's good for the environment, but tell us the upfront cost and limited choice makes it a challenge," Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter said at the time.

But a cabinet paper looking into the scheme revealed a plan which would have put an extra up to $2000 in the back pocket of Kiwis buying electric cars was scrapped by the Government as it was considered to be "poor value for money".
carlos_c
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by carlos_c »

Can people stop saying "energy production" when they mean electricity... In UK majority of houses use gas for cooking and heating and vehicles use petrol/diesel........ Its going to take a lot a hell of a lot more wind farms to replace that energy requirement.
Gwenno
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Gwenno »

carlos_c wrote:Can people stop saying "energy production" when they mean electricity... In UK majority of houses use gas for cooking and heating and vehicles use petrol/diesel........ Its going to take a lot a hell of a lot more wind farms to replace that energy requirement.
Nuclear power will be needed too.
Homer
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Homer »

Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
It's not that bold. EU emissions regulations (and the consumer flight away from diesel) means all OEMS have a fight to bring down their CO2 (or get hit with massive fines). The most palatable is 'electrification', which includes mild-hybrids, hybrids, plug-in hybrids and BEVs. In terms of volume most will not actually be BEVs, as they are still too expensive for most consumers and many people still have concerns about range and access to charging.
Homer
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Homer »

bimboman wrote:
Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.

Honda are saying they’ll not be making any combustion only cars from 2022.

Of course if they actually successfully sell, the electricity network will be overwhelmed...
Your missing the fact that most of those vehicle will never be plugged in.....
Gwenno
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Gwenno »

Homer wrote:
Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
It's not that bold. EU emissions regulations (and the consumer flight away from diesel) means all OEMS have a fight to bring down their CO2 (or get hit with massive fines). The most palatable is 'electrification', which includes mild-hybrids, hybrids, plug-in hybrids and BEVs. In terms of volume most will not actually be BEVs, as they are still too expensive for most consumers and many people still have concerns about range and access to charging.
Cutting human population will solve this problem, I estimate that the first few wars will start the ball rolling, season with famine, flood, and drought, and you're cooking with gas, sorry, renewables.
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6.Jones
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by 6.Jones »

carlos_c wrote:Can people stop saying "energy production" when they mean electricity... In UK majority of houses use gas for cooking and heating and vehicles use petrol/diesel........ Its going to take a lot a hell of a lot more wind farms to replace that energy requirement.
Cadent gas in the UK are collaborating with Keele University on mixing hydrogen with methane for the gas supply. Here in Oz, there are plans to create a renewable energy hub on the Burrup Peninsula, with solar-powered hydrogen production commencing in 2021.
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6.Jones
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by 6.Jones »

Gwenno wrote:
Homer wrote:
Geek wrote:
Homer wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:Saw an article the other day saying that some British guy had invented a new electrolyte for Al-air batteries. Could be a game changer, but stiffly resisted by the motor industry who've invested in li ion tech no doubt.
The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
It's not that bold. EU emissions regulations (and the consumer flight away from diesel) means all OEMS have a fight to bring down their CO2 (or get hit with massive fines). The most palatable is 'electrification', which includes mild-hybrids, hybrids, plug-in hybrids and BEVs. In terms of volume most will not actually be BEVs, as they are still too expensive for most consumers and many people still have concerns about range and access to charging.
Cutting human population will solve this problem, I estimate that the first few wars will start the ball rolling, season with famine, flood, and drought, and you're cooking with gas, sorry, renewables.
Sad, but likely true.
bimboman
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by bimboman »

Cutting human population will solve this problem, I estimate that the first few wars will start the ball rolling, season with famine, flood, and drought, and you're cooking with gas, sorry, renewables.

The last decade was the most peaceful and successful in human history.
Gwenno
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Gwenno »

bimboman wrote:
Cutting human population will solve this problem, I estimate that the first few wars will start the ball rolling, season with famine, flood, and drought, and you're cooking with gas, sorry, renewables.

The last decade was the most peaceful and successful in human history.
Wait until the fires, floods, famine and drought start displacing whole populations - we know how dangerous refugees are, we've seen the political broadcasts.
bimboman
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by bimboman »

Gwenno wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Cutting human population will solve this problem, I estimate that the first few wars will start the ball rolling, season with famine, flood, and drought, and you're cooking with gas, sorry, renewables.

The last decade was the most peaceful and successful in human history.
Wait until the fires, floods, famine and drought start displacing whole populations - we know how dangerous refugees are, we've seen the political broadcasts.

Indeed, let’s wait.

Either way humans are being quite successful in any historical comparison.
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6.Jones
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by 6.Jones »

bimboman wrote:
Gwenno wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Cutting human population will solve this problem, I estimate that the first few wars will start the ball rolling, season with famine, flood, and drought, and you're cooking with gas, sorry, renewables.

The last decade was the most peaceful and successful in human history.
Wait until the fires, floods, famine and drought start displacing whole populations - we know how dangerous refugees are, we've seen the political broadcasts.

Indeed, let’s wait.

Either way humans are being quite successful in any historical comparison.
Aren't the refugees threatening Europe now?
Harvey2.0
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

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Image
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6.Jones
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by 6.Jones »

Harvey2.0 wrote:Image
At the risk of being obvious, isn't the solution to the problem of the unethical exploitation of minerals the ethical exploitation of minerals? Cobalt is mined in Australia without the use of children.
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Ted.
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Ted. »

6.Jones wrote:
Gwenno wrote:
Homer wrote:
Geek wrote:
Homer wrote: The more obvious explanation, based on working in powertrain (including electrified powertrains) development for the last 25 years, is that the technology is some way off being viable for volume production.

I've seen many quite brilliant technologies that have never made it to scale.....
Yep, there's been a battery revolution just over the horizon every year for at least the last decade. It's almost like the nuclear fission dream..

In better news for electric cars is the amount of investment the likes of Hyundai and VW say they are going to make over the next 5 years (something like $35b each). VW have said they're going to introduce around 70 new electric models in that time, which is crazy. If we even get half of that it will change the shape of the car market dramatically. In the latest news, Nissan have announced they will only sell EVs and hybrids in Europe from 2022 onwards (which is a bold statement to make).

Now we just need loads more lithium. And loads more electricity generating stations. And a better charging network. Plenty of work to do if the projection of an electric future is to come true.
It's not that bold. EU emissions regulations (and the consumer flight away from diesel) means all OEMS have a fight to bring down their CO2 (or get hit with massive fines). The most palatable is 'electrification', which includes mild-hybrids, hybrids, plug-in hybrids and BEVs. In terms of volume most will not actually be BEVs, as they are still too expensive for most consumers and many people still have concerns about range and access to charging.
Cutting human population will solve this problem, I estimate that the first few wars will start the ball rolling, season with famine, flood, and drought, and you're cooking with gas, sorry, renewables.
Sad, but likely true.
The US are leading the way on this front. The very best, the greatest ever innovation.
Harvey2.0
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Harvey2.0 »

6.Jones wrote:
Harvey2.0 wrote:Image
At the risk of being obvious, isn't the solution to the problem of the unethical exploitation of minerals the ethical exploitation of minerals? Cobalt is mined in Australia without the use of children.
According to Amnesty 50% of the worlds cobalt comes from mines in The DRC that use child labour https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... batteries/
Biffer29
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Biffer29 »

Harvey2.0 wrote:
6.Jones wrote:
Harvey2.0 wrote:Image
At the risk of being obvious, isn't the solution to the problem of the unethical exploitation of minerals the ethical exploitation of minerals? Cobalt is mined in Australia without the use of children.
According to Amnesty 50% of the worlds cobalt comes from mines in The DRC that use child labour https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... batteries/
That doesn’t really answer the question posed.
Harvey2.0
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Harvey2.0 »

Biffer29 wrote:
Harvey2.0 wrote:
6.Jones wrote:
Harvey2.0 wrote:Image
At the risk of being obvious, isn't the solution to the problem of the unethical exploitation of minerals the ethical exploitation of minerals? Cobalt is mined in Australia without the use of children.
According to Amnesty 50% of the worlds cobalt comes from mines in The DRC that use child labour https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... batteries/
That doesn’t really answer the question posed.
Fair point, I wonder much more expensive the inevitable price increase in batteries from sourcing cobalt ethically will make electric cars ?
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eldanielfire
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by eldanielfire »

Sadly a good example of a good environmental idea that goes wrong because it's a badly planned stunt. Good idea, bad policy is not the way forward for Environmentalism:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ay-be-dead

Most of 11m trees planted in Turkish project 'may be dead'
Agriculture and forestry union says up to 90% of saplings they have looked at so far have died

Sami Kent in Istanbul

Thu 30 Jan 2020 10.00 GMTLast modified on Thu 30 Jan 2020 10.02 GMT
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The Speaker of Turkey’s parliament, Mustafa Şentop, planting a tree in Ankara on 11 November 2019 as part of National Forestation Day.
The Speaker of Turkey’s parliament, Mustafa Şentop, planting a tree in Ankara on 11 November 2019 as part of National Forestation Day. Photograph: Anadolu Agency via Getty Images
Up to 90% of the millions of saplings planted in Turkey as part of a record-breaking mass planting project may have died after just a few months, according to the country’s agriculture and forestry trade union.

On 11 November last year, which the government declared National Forestation Day, 11 million trees were planted by volunteers in more than 2,000 sites across the country, including by the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, and the parliament Speaker, Mustafa Şentop.

The government-backed programme broke the world record for the most trees planted in one hour in a single location, with 303,150 saplings planted in the northern Anatolian city of Çorum.

The head of the union claimed, however, that 90% of the saplings his teams have inspected so far have died because of insufficient water. Speaking to the Guardian, Şükrü Durmuş attributed the deaths to the saplings being planted at “the wrong time” and “not by experts”, as well as a lack of rainfall.

Durmuş said the union has carried out research in six of Turkey’s 81 provinces, and further investigations are planned.

The ministry of agriculture and forestry denied the claim and said that “as of today, 95% of the more than 11 million saplings planted are healthy and continuing to grow”.

The union cast doubt on the government’s claims. “Even with normal time and preparation, the success rate is between 65 and 70%,” said Durmuş. “The 95% rate given by the ministry is never true.”

The dispute adds to the global debate about mass tree-planting, with critics pointing out the sometimes poor survival rate of mass-planted saplings, and the use of such projects to “greenwash” states and companies with otherwise poor environmental records.

Both trees and the wider environment have emerged as particularly prominent in Turkish politics over the past few years, most notably during the months-long protests sparked by the government plan to redevelop Istanbul’s Gezi Park.

Erdoğan has declared that National Reforestation Day will be repeated every 11 November.

The ruling AK party claims it has planted more than 4.5bn saplings in its 17 years in power. However, its environmental policies continue to attract criticism, most recently over the razing of forests to build Istanbul’s new airport, and over plans to create a 45km (28-mile) canal to divert shipping traffic from the Bosphorus.
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6.Jones
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by 6.Jones »

Harvey2.0 wrote:[I wonder much more expensive the inevitable price increase in batteries from sourcing cobalt ethically will make electric cars ?
There's 15kg of cobalt in a typical NMC lithium ion car battery. The spot price of cobalt is about $US25k / tonne. So that's $375 per doubling of the cobalt price. A Tesla NCA cathode has only 3% cobalt - compared to 10-20% for an NMC battery - so a fraction of that.
dinsdale
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by dinsdale »

6.Jones wrote:
Harvey2.0 wrote:[I wonder much more expensive the inevitable price increase in batteries from sourcing cobalt ethically will make electric cars ?
There's 15kg of cobalt in a typical NMC lithium ion car battery. The spot price of cobalt is about $US25k / tonne. So that's $375 per doubling of the cobalt price. A Tesla NCA cathode has only 3% cobalt - compared to 10-20% for an NMC battery - so a fraction of that.
Also Tesla have said that they will phase out cobalt in the next generation of batteries.
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by Gordon Bennett »

Geek wrote: Fuel cells are also not the newest tech now. My old uni (University of Birmingham) has had fuel cell cars running round campus for nearly 15 years now. Hydrogen fuel cells themselves are nearly 200 years old. Eventually, it may start to take off, but the biggest challenge (I think) is with the storage of hydrogen in large quantities.
This is relevant to two pieces of research I've recently read.

The first involved high density hydrogen storage as ammonia, and using a palladium-nickel catalyst to help the ammonia to decompose to generate hydrogen on demand with nitrogen as the by-product.

Secondly, was reading some research talking about a new method of ammonia production at room temperature and pressure. No good using ammonia as your hydrogen storage medium when currently ammonia production is one of the most carbon-generating industries.

Anyway, storage of ammonia is much safer than storage of vast quantities of hydrogen, as long as the ammonia can be deconstructed to useable volumes of hydrogen on demand. No idea how far away a test site would be, but the relevant theses can be found on t'internet.
pigaaaa
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by pigaaaa »

Gordon Bennett wrote:
Geek wrote: Fuel cells are also not the newest tech now. My old uni (University of Birmingham) has had fuel cell cars running round campus for nearly 15 years now. Hydrogen fuel cells themselves are nearly 200 years old. Eventually, it may start to take off, but the biggest challenge (I think) is with the storage of hydrogen in large quantities.
This is relevant to two pieces of research I've recently read.

The first involved high density hydrogen storage as ammonia, and using a palladium-nickel catalyst to help the ammonia to decompose to generate hydrogen on demand with nitrogen as the by-product.

Secondly, was reading some research talking about a new method of ammonia production at room temperature and pressure. No good using ammonia as your hydrogen storage medium when currently ammonia production is one of the most carbon-generating industries.

Anyway, storage of ammonia is much safer than storage of vast quantities of hydrogen, as long as the ammonia can be deconstructed to useable volumes of hydrogen on demand. No idea how far away a test site would be, but the relevant theses can be found on t'internet.
Good post. There is one misconception there though.
The most carbon intensive step of Ammonia production is reforming of natural gas to produce hydrogen. If you talk of ammonia as a means of hydrogen storage - I presume you talk about storing ‘green’ hydrogen from renewable energy. Then you won’t have that step and the remaining processes like air capture of nitrogen and N and H synthesis is not all that energy consuming. Using ammonia as a hydrogen carrier makes a lot of sense. Ammonia toxicity is a bigger problem.
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message #2527204
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

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An electric-powered Cessna 208B Grand Caravan lifted off a Moses Lake runway on 28 May, marking another milestone in a project that aims to bring all-electric flight to consumer air travel.
Image

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 00.article
bimboman
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

Post by bimboman »

message #2527204 wrote:
An electric-powered Cessna 208B Grand Caravan lifted off a Moses Lake runway on 28 May, marking another milestone in a project that aims to bring all-electric flight to consumer air travel.
Image

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 00.article

Sell jet fuel.
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Re: RIP the internal combustion engine!

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https://www.euractiv.com/section/shippi ... -in-style/


The world’s largest all-electric ferry completed 10 months of trials last week, as the EU-funded project revealed that battery-powered boats will save operators money compared to their diesel counterparts during their decades of service.

Ellen is a 60 metre-long car and passenger ferry, plying a route between two Danish islands in the Baltic Sea. It is most notable for being exclusively powered by 4.3 megawatts of battery power.

In August 2019, Ellen – which received funding from the EU’s Horizon 2020 research programme – began operating a 40km return-trip route. High-performance chargers top up the battery between sailings, so passengers do not need to wait long to depart.

After nearly a year of service, the e-ferry’s operators concluded that the entire system has an energy efficiency rating of 85%, nearly twice that of diesel boats. That success has a direct impact on how much it costs to run the vessel.

“Perhaps most important of all for the dissemination of e-technology, pure electricity is simply the cheapest solution now,” the Ellen project team said in a statement, adding that although the upfront costs are still high, operating costs are much lower.

World’s largest electric ferry enters service in Denmark

An all-electric ferry, purported to be the world’s largest, completed its first voyage between two Danish islands last week, as the shipping sector gears up for strict new emission laws due to take effect in 2020.

According to their calculations, an e-ferry that cost just over €15 million to put in the water will reach financial parity with an older diesel vessel in its fourth year of service and achieve the same feat versus a new boat in its fifth year.

“Depending on the conditions, technical and regulatory, that apply to the route”, an e-ferry will be the most economical option after a maximum of eight years, Ellen’s operators said, adding that “significant savings” can be made given that ferries typically have a shelf life of 30 years.

Over the 10 months of voyages, passengers were asked to complete a survey about their experience. Almost all were very happy with the quieter trip and lack of diesel fumes on deck due to lack of engine. None voiced concerns at being on an electric boat at sea.

It is not just financial savings that can be made by the vessel: the e-ferry can also curb emissions by 2,250 tonnes of CO2 every year, if the power used to charge the battery is 100% renewable energy.
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