RIP the internal combustion engine!

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:54 am

That pic is named "ecoFascismInAction.gif". I'm starting to worry about you, FA...

So those are some impressive reviews for the Tesla Model S, no?

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:25 am

Fascinating video here of a Tesla Model S test drive...

Tesla Model S first drive: the sports sedan goes electric (update: video)

You can already see that the handling is amazing! It goes around corners at speed and with basically zero body roll...

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:46 am

slow wing wrote:That pic is named "ecoFascismInAction.gif". I'm starting to worry about you, FA...

So those are some impressive reviews for the Tesla Model S, no?

It's also completely made up. Here are the DOE's actual projections:

http://www.cce.utk.edu/energyplan/Hudso ... Policy.pdf

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:59 am

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:06 am

Elon Musk: In 20 years, more than half of new car sales will be fully electric
Posted: Jun 27, 2012

At the launch of new Model S electric sedan, Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk said that electric-cars will start matching the popularity of gasoline powered vehicles by the middle of next decade.

“In 20 years more than half of new cars manufactured will be fully electric,” [Tesla CEO Elon] Musk said. “I feel actually quite safe in that bet. That’s a bet I will put money on.”
Musk went onto say that it may even happen sooner. “It’s probably going to be in the 12- to 15-year time frame.”

Link.

I still think we will reach a 'tipping point' where people realise electric cars are just better, and it will be even sooner.

Sandstorm · Post by **Sandstorm** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:08 am

slow wing wrote:
Elon Musk: In 20 years, more than half of new car sales will be fully electric
Posted: Jun 27, 2012

At the launch of new Model S electric sedan, Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk said that electric-cars will start matching the popularity of gasoline powered vehicles by the middle of next decade.

“In 20 years more than half of new cars manufactured will be fully electric,” [Tesla CEO Elon] Musk said. “I feel actually quite safe in that bet. That’s a bet I will put money on.”
Musk went onto say that it may even happen sooner. “It’s probably going to be in the 12- to 15-year time frame.”
Link.

I still think we will reach a 'tipping point' where people realise electric cars are just better, and it will be even sooner.

I hope we have enough power to charge them up each night.

South Korea makes many of the batteries for those electric cars and they're already shitting themselves that they can't keep the factories running 24/7 to keep up with a 1% electric car market share. Push that up to 50%......

Fat Albert · Post by **Fat Albert** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:24 pm

Good to know that the earliest we can expect BEVs to represent 50% of the market will coincide with systematic power cuts across the UK

Prosyma via National Grid wrote:The National Grid requires a Short Term Operating Reserve (STORR) to ensure that electricity supplies are maintained, without interruption, over the complete island of Great Britain. This Reserve varies according to the time of year but, at times of peak winter demand, is presently about 4 GW on top of a maximum demand of nearly 60 GW or about a 7% margin.

Currently the generating capacity provided by wind turbines is hardly significant but, if the wind generation capacity increases to the extent envisaged in GG, this will increase to around 9 GW by the year 2025.

We do not believe that National Grid’s Reserves approach is adequate to the task of dealing with the chance of virtually no electricity from the wind turbines on a certain number of days in the year.

We consider that a safe operating margin would be obtained by adding an additional margin of 95% for all available power provided by wind, waves and tidal generation to the current STORR of 7%. Using this principle, we calculated the maximum winter demand and the minimum available power for the years to 2025. These results are given in Figure 5 and it can be seen that there is a significant danger of power cuts from 2016, a near certainty of power shortages from 2018 and a catastrophic shortage from 2024.

The lawsuits will be fun, remember Tesla's warranty specifically excludes 'bricked' battery replacement, just imagine staggering home on the last of your charge only to find a 3 day power cut which 'could' brick your battery and require, at current prices, a $40,000 replacement pack.

Interesting that Nissan & Toyota both attempt to avoid the brick scenario by leaving around 30% of the charge in the battery when the gauge says empty and the systems shut down. I wondered how Tesla got their extra range! Strange coincidence that the departure of Peter Rawlinson, Tesla’s vice president and chief engineer, and Nick Sampson, who supervised vehicle and chassis engineering, in February coincided with the publicity over bricked Tesla roadsters

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:53 pm

Fat Albert wrote:Good to know that the earliest we can expect BEVs to represent 50% of the market will coincide with systematic power cuts across the UK
Prosyma via National Grid wrote:The National Grid requires a Short Term Operating Reserve (STORR) to ensure that electricity supplies are maintained, without interruption, over the complete island of Great Britain. This Reserve varies according to the time of year but, at times of peak winter demand, is presently about 4 GW on top of a maximum demand of nearly 60 GW or about a 7% margin.

Currently the generating capacity provided by wind turbines is hardly significant but, if the wind generation capacity increases to the extent envisaged in GG, this will increase to around 9 GW by the year 2025.

We do not believe that National Grid’s Reserves approach is adequate to the task of dealing with the chance of virtually no electricity from the wind turbines on a certain number of days in the year.

We consider that a safe operating margin would be obtained by adding an additional margin of 95% for all available power provided by wind, waves and tidal generation to the current STORR of 7%. Using this principle, we calculated the maximum winter demand and the minimum available power for the years to 2025. These results are given in Figure 5 and it can be seen that there is a significant danger of power cuts from 2016, a near certainty of power shortages from 2018 and a catastrophic shortage from 2024.
The lawsuits will be fun, remember Tesla's warranty specifically excludes 'bricked' battery replacement, just imagine staggering home on the last of your charge only to find a 3 day power cut which 'could' brick your battery and require, at current prices, a $40,000 replacement pack.

Interesting that Nissan & Toyota both attempt to avoid the brick scenario by leaving around 30% of the charge in the battery when the gauge says empty and the systems shut down. I wondered how Tesla got their extra range! Strange coincidence that the departure of Peter Rawlinson, Tesla’s vice president and chief engineer, and Nick Sampson, who supervised vehicle and chassis engineering, in February coincided with the publicity over bricked Tesla roadsters

Fats, that snippet from Prosyma (the only submission they've made AFAIK) presumes that the UK grid is both self-contained and without any storage systems. Neither of those things is likely to be true in the timescales they suggest. The reality is that planning on capacity moves in lockstep with research and development. National Grid is a very conservative and obsessively thorough organisation - it isn't going to make the simple error of not realising that transients may not support daily supplies.

Fat Albert · Post by **Fat Albert** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:13 pm

Self contained

The only significant external capacity I'm aware of is France, we do buy a token amount from Ireland but predominantly I thought that interconnector was t'other way...

Francois Hollande's threat to close French nuclear plants (at least those providing excess energy) could return us to an energy island as well as turning out the lights in Italy...

Storage

Please advise of any planned storage capacity approaching 9GW x 72 hours, I'm not aware of any within the 12 year timescale. We should also consider that green politics has killed any chance of new nuclear stations in the UK, the partners who were going to build them (e.g. EDF) have been told by Moodys that if they remain in the projects their rating will be downgraded

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:42 pm

Fat Albert wrote:Self contained

The only significant external capacity I'm aware of is France, we do buy a token amount from Ireland but predominantly I thought that interconnector was t'other way...

Francois Hollande's threat to close French nuclear plants (at least those providing excess energy) could return us to an energy island as well as turning out the lights in Italy...

Storage

Please advise of any planned storage capacity approaching 9GW x 72 hours, I'm not aware of any within the 12 year timescale. We should also consider that green politics has killed any chance of new nuclear stations in the UK, the partners who were going to build them (e.g. EDF) have been told by Moodys that if they remain in the projects their rating will be downgraded

Detailed planning is well underway for a European super-grid. The risk of it not happening (e.g. for geopolitical reasons) is interesting, and is part of the work I'm doing at my computer as we speak.

In the context of a European grid the storage becomes moot. The grid had excess capacity in hydroelectric systems without recourse to new technologies.

That grid exists in a prototypical form now. You just have to buy electricity instead of pooling it financially.

If none of this happens (e.g. for geopolitical or economic reasons) and new unit storage systems don't come into play, then the UK will ramp down its plans for wind power generation in advance of that.

It's a very conservative business. The risks you're imagining just aren't going to be taken.

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:31 am

Perhaps the best review yet...

I Am Silent, Hear Me Roar
It doesn't snarl like a Lamborghini, but Tesla's new Model S is no eat-your-broccoli all-electric car, says Dan Neil—more like eat-up-the-pavement-while-grinning-ear-to-ear
By DAN NEIL

Tesla Model S at SpaceX

THIS TESLA MODEL S thing you've heard so much about? You know, all-electric sedan, Silicon Valley, that guy from SpaceX? This is one amazing car. I mean, hard-core amazing. But first and foremost, gentle reader, it goes like the very stink of hell. Fifty-to-100-mph acceleration in the $97,900 Signature Performance model I drove is positively Lambo-like and…

Link - Wall Street Journal

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:57 am

Here is a financial analyst who 'gets it', writing for Forbes magazine and realising that electric cars are a disruptive technology...

Why Tesla is Beating GM, Ford and Toyota - Electric Cars

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:38 am

The Empire strikes back! GM's Bob Lutz replies in Forbes Magazine with a scoff piece on Tesla Motors...

Tesla Beating Detroit? That's Just Nonsense - Bob Lutz in Forbes

He damns the Model S with faint praise as "well-styled" and "a nice car for a social elite".

Adam Hartung, the author of the original piece posted above, is dissed as a 'Detroit-hating e-scribe'.

Then scroll down to the Comments section for Adam Hartung's aggressive counter-counter punch at Maximum Bob.

Good stuff...

merlin the happy pig · Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:56 am

Much as I see the benefits of electric vehicles and don't fear the ability of the electricity grid to adapt, I wonder if we have missed the benefits of a much simpler technology that can achieve similar results.

The average occupancy of cars when commuting is about 1.3.
Improving the occupancy to 2 through ride sharing would achieve a similar decrease in energy use with far fewer infrastructure or technological advances.

Matching drivers and passengers, identification, payment are all achievable using existing IT infrastructure and mobile devices. There is nothing fundamentally difficult in this at all.

Anyway good luck to the electric car, but focusing on the system instead of the vehicle has potentially bigger benefits.

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:48 am

2012 Tesla Model S Track Test (with video)

The first independent track test for the Model S and Edmunds is officially impressed...

How does it perform? Impressively. This thing is fast.

In Performance trim, the 2012 Tesla Model S makes 416 horsepower and 443 pound-feet of torque. Enough to blow the doors off our long-term Audi A8 and long-list of luxury sedans that don't wear badges like M or AMG. It also turns and stops like Tesla has been building high-performance sedans for decades.

That last part is the most impressive for me...

The article has more detailed comments and all the stats.

0-60 (sec): 4.3 (4.3 w/ TC on)
0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec): 4.0 (4.0 w/ TC on)

That is actually faster than Tesla themselves claim.
Q. what is a "1-ft Rollout"? Is it a 1-foot high down ramp?

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:51 am

The article has 69 photos as well. It's a beautiful car too, it has to be said - from all angles...

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:16 am

Monster Meets Model S - YouTube (3m12s)

The guy himself is amazing. He is in his 60s yet he has dominated the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb in recent years.

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:47 am

On Thursday evening, Musk tweeted this to his more than 87,000 followers:

Elon Musk
✔
@elonmusk
Tesla Supercharger unveiling event set for Sept 24. It will feel like alien spaceships landed at highway rest stops.

solar power?

battery swap option?

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:53 am

I can't help myself, one more glowing review of the Model S...

A 4-Day Test Drive of the Tesla S — Elon Musk’s Tesla S

[ends with...]
The real question I asked when driving the Model S was, simply: Would it suit my day-to-day needs for commuting, hauling and the occasional backroad blast? And the answer is a resounding, unequivocal, “yes.”

Tesla hasn’t just created a fully functional EV. It’s made a vehicle that’s both incredibly engaging and fully practical. As with any car, compromises were made — we’ll be delving into those more deeply on future Autopia reports, so stay tuned — but as a whole, the Model S feels and drives like the future. It’s a rolling testament to the potential of automotive innovation, and a massive leap forward for an industry struggling to stake a claim in the 21st century.

Link - wired.com

Tomorrow, the big announcement on Tesla's roadside charging network from outer space...

Cubo-Futurist · Post by **Cubo-Futurist** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:49 pm

I'll be taking delivery of my new C63 saloon on November 25th, I'll let you know how healthy the engine is in due course.

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:05 pm

I've got a CLS63 and it is actually a great multipurpose motor. But I want a Tesla S.

deadduck · Post by **deadduck** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:18 pm

Not going to read the thread to find out but can anyone answer if they've solved the problem of battery deterioration?

What happens once you've had the car 3 years and the batteries are stuffed? New ones? How much? What happens to the old ones? Who pays? How many Chinese miners have to die?

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:34 pm

deadduck wrote:Not going to read the thread to find out but can anyone answer if they've solved the problem of battery deterioration?

What happens once you've had the car 3 years and the batteries are stuffed? New ones? How much? What happens to the old ones? Who pays? How many Chinese miners have to die?

You can buy a prepaid replacement option for $12k. That's a one-time replacement, but the current battery life seems to be > 200,000 km.

I think that's a small fraction in human terms of the cost of the petroleum differential.

Cubo-Futurist · Post by **Cubo-Futurist** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:38 pm

6roucho wrote:I've got a CLS63 and it is actually a great multipurpose motor. But I want a Tesla S.

i've finally twisted the wife's arm - it's taken me the best part of 6 months.

Bye bye E350 tractor, hello 451 snarling ponies.

Sandstorm · Post by **Sandstorm** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:38 pm

6roucho wrote:I've got a CLS63 and it is actually a great multipurpose motor. But I want a Tesla S.

Those AMG powerplants are just awesome!

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:42 pm

Cubo-Futurist wrote:
6roucho wrote:I've got a CLS63 and it is actually a great multipurpose motor. But I want a Tesla S.
i've finally twisted the wife's arm - it's taken me the best part of 6 months.

Bye bye E350 tractor, hello 451 snarling ponies.

That's a damned small car for 451 hp.

Cubo-Futurist · Post by **Cubo-Futurist** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:46 pm

6roucho wrote:
Cubo-Futurist wrote:
6roucho wrote:I've got a CLS63 and it is actually a great multipurpose motor. But I want a Tesla S.
i've finally twisted the wife's arm - it's taken me the best part of 6 months.

Bye bye E350 tractor, hello 451 snarling ponies.
That's a damned small car for 451 hp.

Same spec as this beaut

Fat Albert · Post by **Fat Albert** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:26 pm

6rouch wrote:You can buy a prepaid replacement option for $12k. That's a one-time replacement, but the current battery life seems to be > 200,000 km.

Hmmmmm!

Have Nissan Leafs in hot states suffered premature battery aging, or is the apparent loss in capacity down to a malfunction in the Leaf’s dashboard display?

That’s been the question on the lips of Nissan Leaf owners worldwide after some owners in Phoenix, Arizona, began reporting that their cars had lost capacity bars.
...
The test, organized by Leaf owner and electric car advocate Tony Williams, took place over the past weekend in Phoenix, Arizona.

Using twelve different Nissan Leafs with varying amounts of battery capacity bar loss, Williams and his team of volunteers meticulously recorded each car’s state of charge versus distance travelled on a pre-planned route, using the popular third-party GID state of charge meter for added accuracy.

In order to eliminate as much noise from the data as possible, each driver was given a set of strict test conditions to follow, including no use of air conditioning, and traveling at a pre-set speed where possible.

The results show a clear loss of range in line with indicated battery capacity loss.

Moreover, some of the Leafs used in the test exhibited battery capacity loss after two years far greater than Nissan's own five and ten year battery capacity estimates predicted.
...
Speaking to Williams earlier on, we were told that despite some extensive searching, the team could not find a single Nissan Leaf in Phoenix which had its original battery capacity intact.

And that included brand new 2012 Leafs sitting on dealer lots.

So, Nissan have made a serious engineering miscalculation or lied about the range of the Leaf in real life use!

Some 8 months after the first Tesla 'S' rolled off the production line and 4 months after first customer deliveries, Tesla still refuse to provide production cars to independent reviewers for an extended review and are still preventing owners from doing the same, the only extended review was carried out using Musk's personal car, anyone who believes that this was a 'standard' production model no doubt believes that Ferrari give 'standard' production models to magazines for road tests!

Uncritical fan support

One of the company's assets is a loud chorus of fans cheering it on and enthusiastically evangelizing for its products. To them, Tesla Motors can do no wrong and the Model S is the most innovative car in auto-industry history.

As comments on Tesla stories indicate, fans feel that any hints of criticism of the Model S are

(a) made by writers, analysts, or others who have no idea what they're talking about
(b) an attempt to crush Tesla Motors on behalf of Detroit
(c) funded by oil interests
(d) contemptibly ignorant of the realities of the world (from their specific vantage points)

Meanwhile, Tesla--we presume--is slowly ramping up Model S production to ensure high-quality vehicles, and continuing to deliver cars to early customers, as it should.

It's impossible for the outside world to know for sure, however, since the company has refused to release monthly sales data as do all other auto companies.

I wonder where I've heard this kind (a,b,c & d) of behaviour before, is it not standard practice for ecofundies?

So tell me Slowy, if the Tesla 'S' is all its cracked up to be (and it may be), why are Tesla preventing independent extended road tests?, and why are they refusing to publish unit sales and delivery numbers, like every other serious player in the industry?

Fat Albert · Post by **Fat Albert** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:37 pm

GM is losing up to $49k On Every Chevvy Volt Sold

Is this astonishing headline from some right wing, conservative, oil funding conspiracy? Nope, its from Reuters!!!

Nearly two years after the introduction of the path-breaking plug-in hybrid, GM is still losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds, according to estimates provided to Reuters by industry analysts and manufacturing experts. GM on Monday issued a statement disputing the estimates.

Cheap Volt lease offers meant to drive more customers to Chevy showrooms this summer may have pushed that loss even higher. There are some Americans paying just $5,050 to drive around for two years in a vehicle that cost as much as $89,000 to produce.

The future is bright, the future is BEV/HEV... as long as tax payers pay for the mess left behind

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:38 pm

I'm not worried by the technology. I think I'll be placing an order.

deadduck · Post by **deadduck** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:59 pm

They've just installed two "electric vehicles only" parking spaces outside my work building, with the charging units. I'll wait with baited breath for the first person to park in it. I have a feeling I'll be waiting some time considering only about 30 people work in the adjacent buildings. Good one Murdoch University

Student fees well spent.

The Man Without Fear · Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:59 pm

Fat Albert wrote:GM is losing up to $49k On Every Chevvy Volt Sold

Is this astonishing headline from some right wing, conservative, oil funding conspiracy? Nope, its from Reuters!!!
Nearly two years after the introduction of the path-breaking plug-in hybrid, GM is still losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds, according to estimates provided to Reuters by industry analysts and manufacturing experts. GM on Monday issued a statement disputing the estimates.

Cheap Volt lease offers meant to drive more customers to Chevy showrooms this summer may have pushed that loss even higher. There are some Americans paying just $5,050 to drive around for two years in a vehicle that cost as much as $89,000 to produce.
The future is bright, the future is BEV/HEV... as long as tax payers pay for the mess left behind

Speaking if which, I see Shell is still spectacularly failing to clean up its spillages in Nigeria. There's a surprise. Come on in, FA, the delta's lovely!

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:26 pm

Cubo-Futurist wrote:
6roucho wrote:
Cubo-Futurist wrote:
6roucho wrote:I've got a CLS63 and it is actually a great multipurpose motor. But I want a Tesla S.
i've finally twisted the wife's arm - it's taken me the best part of 6 months.

Bye bye E350 tractor, hello 451 snarling ponies.
That's a damned small car for 451 hp.
Same spec as this beaut

Eww!! It's got some sort of sump pipes dripping poison onto the road. Get it off my thread!

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:02 am

Webcast: Watch Tesla Unveil Their Supercharger Tonight at 8 PST (11 EST)

That's right now folks! Live stream. Allegedly. I'm not getting it yet.

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:18 am

Now I'm getting the visual but no sound. Anyone else?

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:20 am

"You will be able to travel forever, for free, on pure sunlight"

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:05 am

Tesla reveals Supercharger network it says will cover the US in two years; Model S fills up for free, always
By Richard Lawler posted Sep 24th 2012 11:22PM

At Tesla's event, CEO Elon Musk has finally taken the wraps off of its Superchargers, which it has already set up in six locations across California, Nevada and Arizona. The company expects to cover the US with them nationally in the next two years. According to Musk, the solar powered systems will put more power back into the grid than the cars use while driving. Oh, and for you Model S owners? You will always be able to charge at any of the stations for free. According to Musk, the economies of scale developed while building the Model S have helped it get costs down on the chargers, although he did not offer specifics.

During the event we also saw video of drivers charging their vehicles at stations today that Tesla apparently constructed in secret. They're using solar technology from (also owned by Musk) SolarCity, and can charge a Model S with 100 kilowatts good for three hours of driving at 60mph in about 30 minutes. They're currently pushing 90kW, and could go as high as 120 in the future. Check the press release embedded after the break or Tesla's website for more details.

Link

By crikey, that is some ambition...

ONWARDS ELON MUSK AND THE GREEN REVOLUTION!!!

slow wing · Post by **slow wing** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:21 am

Click on that link and play the video of Musk's press conference - it is amazing stuff!!

merlin the happy pig · Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:53 am

I really do think the real revolution in personal transport is going to occur in the transportation system rather than propulsion.

See this analysis by KPMG.
https://www.kpmg.com/US/en/IssuesAndIns ... lution.pdf

Imagine if roads were a good analog of computer networks where packets of information are automatically routed via an optimal route, where they are coordinated to avoid collisions.
Cars will very soon be capable of being automatically controlled entities which operate cooperatively to drastically improve the efficiency of roading.

Obvious and less obvious benefits:
No road deaths.
No insurance.
No traffic police
no traffic lights, few roundabouts, minimal road signage.
Vastly reduced new road building (expect to more than double existing road capacity)
Many fewer car parks because many will subscribe to a car service where cars are scheduled on demand.
No driving jobs.
No need for buses and trains.
Elderly regain their mobility.
Shag the missus on the way to work while the car drives itself.

Vastly improved fuel economy from:
No heavy crash protection.
Less requirement for fast acceleration braking therefore smaller engines, lighter chassis.
Car to network communication means automated ride sharing is an option.

In short the car of the future may well be electric, but compared to the coming revolution in automation it's effects are small scale

6roucho · Post by **6roucho** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:31 am

slow wing wrote:Click on that link and play the video of Musk's press conference - it is amazing stuff!!

That's remarkable. It's good to see people actually constructing the future instead of carping about how different it is.