Planet Rugby Forum

Torque wrote:The letter to reservation holders covered the 60 kilowatt-hour model, the 40 kilowatt-hour model, cars with the standard (coil) suspension, and cars with the 2013 Red multi-coat paint.

The 60 kilowatt-hour models will begin manufacturing in January 2013, with deliveries beginning in January or February. The 40 kilowatt-hour models will begin manufacturing in March 2013, with deliveries beginning in March/April.

The delay of 60- and 40-kilowatt-hour models is to be expected because of the other delays, and the lessened 2012 Model S production target. The original target of 5000 Model S's in 2012 has been downgraded by Tesla's management to the range of 2,500-3,500 Model S's in 2012.

Elon's Fan Blog wrote:Now, Tesla Motors [NSDQ:TSLA] has released the details of the price increases on the different versions of the Model S all-electric luxury sport sedan.

The new prices are $59,900 for the base version with a 40-kilowatt-hour battery pack, $69,900 for the mid-range 60-kWh model, $79,900 for the top-end 85-kWh level, and $94,900 for the Performance model, which also uses the 85-kWh pack.

EFB wrote:Tesla also released pricing for replacement battery packs, giving current and future owners a better sense of what it will cost to own their electric sport sedans over a decade or more.

The price of a 40 kWh pack is $8,000. Another $2,000 gets the 60 kWh pack, and the 85 kWh pack costs another $2,000 on top of that.

Tesla CEO, Elon Musk, on Twitter wrote:Am happy to report that Tesla was narrowly cash flow positive last week. Continued improvement expected through year end.

slow wing wrote:

Tesla CEO, Elon Musk, on Twitter wrote:Am happy to report that Tesla was narrowly cash flow positive last week. Continued improvement expected through year end.

So they have made it through the Valley of Death. A historic moment for transportation and the writing is now all over the wall for ICE vehicles.

slow wing wrote:Cheers for the information, FA.

You mentioned the batteries. Ford has endorsed Tesla's Panasonic batteries as the best in the world and is using it themselves in their Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid.

Next year Panasonic will be mass producing new batteries with a 30% increase in energy storage over this year's batteries of the same volume. They are using a new negative electrode where silicon replaces the graphite. We can expect such incremental improvements to continue for lithium ion batteries. Once they are good enough, electric cars will dominate in all sectors.

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:Actually we got a lend of one from a local garage, as part of our work, for two weeks so we each got it for 2/3 days. It was a Renault Fluence, the car we got wasn't for general sale it was just a garage car.

Pros: The way Renault have structured the battery rental is very good, basically you pay a subscription to Renault every month, depending on how many miles you do, this could vary from €150-300/month. So you don't buy the potential problems with batteries you do with other car manufacturers.

I do about 120-140km/day, basically if I was to get one I am spending about €300/month on Diesel it would cost me €200/month (including rental and charging(night rate)). To buy it initially, it is the same as the diesel/petrol equivalent.

Cons: Battery range was poor as I do 120-140/km day I have to recharge at work, but I think this is related to the fact that this car not only a garage car, the battery range is supposed to be 200km in reality more like 150/160km.

I know the Electric Ireland at the moment are installing the home charge point for free (think this is for the first 2000 or so) and the public charge points are free at the moment as they haven't worked out the charging structure, they will use yet. So now would be a good time to get them.

Overall driving experience, is very good, once you get over the eery silence at the start. It is actually quite nice, a colleague of mine suffer for severe travel sickness and he said it was great as you have less noise and vibration, which is a side benefit.

Would I get one in the future: Most definitely, and I am sure when I do buy again (I have a 09) battery technology will have improved and the infrastructure around the country will have drastically improved (charge points). I do think other facilities also need to be brought on board, like manufactures having their owner battery 'lockers' at filling station, and you could just pull up take out half your batteries bay and put in fully charged ones, something like that would really help to integrate them faster.

slow wing wrote:Have you had a chance to drive a Tesla Model S yet, Homer?

Tesla Motors is way out ahead of everyone else when it comes to electric cars. The existing big car companies seem to have too much inertia in ICE cars but it doesn't matter because Tesla is blazing the path that others will have to follow or else fall out of the market.

slow wing wrote:Have you had a chance to drive a Tesla Model S yet, Homer?


Tesla Motors is way out ahead of everyone else when it comes to electric cars. The existing big car companies seem to have too much inertia in ICE cars but it doesn't matter because Tesla is blazing the path that others will have to follow or else fall out of the market.

bimboman wrote:

slow wing wrote:Have you had a chance to drive a Tesla Model S yet, Homer?


Tesla Motors is way out ahead of everyone else when it comes to electric cars. The existing big car companies seem to have too much inertia in ICE cars but it doesn't matter because Tesla is blazing the path that others will have to follow or else fall out of the market.

If Tesla even get close to 100,000 units a year one of the big players will blow them out of the water in two years. This will not happen until there is a real infrastructure for recharging on Motorways/trunk roads and general acceptance that they will become mainstream.

SW , how long will it be before Tesla turn a profit ?

Richard D. James wrote:

bimboman wrote:

slow wing wrote:Have you had a chance to drive a Tesla Model S yet, Homer?


Tesla Motors is way out ahead of everyone else when it comes to electric cars. The existing big car companies seem to have too much inertia in ICE cars but it doesn't matter because Tesla is blazing the path that others will have to follow or else fall out of the market.

If Tesla even get close to 100,000 units a year one of the big players will blow them out of the water in two years. This will not happen until there is a real infrastructure for recharging on Motorways/trunk roads and general acceptance that they will become mainstream.

SW , how long will it be before Tesla turn a profit ?

Doesn't Tesla owns a lot of the tech that the big players are using in their own vehicles, so I would imagine the more batteries the big players put in their cars the more royalties Tesla will get?

I'm sure Slow WIng will know.

Anyway I've never understood the negativity surrounding this car from some quarters. Don't people want more choice in the car market? I guess your politics has a lot to do with it unfortunately.

bimboman wrote:

Richard D. James wrote:

bimboman wrote:

slow wing wrote:Have you had a chance to drive a Tesla Model S yet, Homer?


Tesla Motors is way out ahead of everyone else when it comes to electric cars. The existing big car companies seem to have too much inertia in ICE cars but it doesn't matter because Tesla is blazing the path that others will have to follow or else fall out of the market.

If Tesla even get close to 100,000 units a year one of the big players will blow them out of the water in two years. This will not happen until there is a real infrastructure for recharging on Motorways/trunk roads and general acceptance that they will become mainstream.

SW , how long will it be before Tesla turn a profit ?

Doesn't Tesla owns a lot of the tech that the big players are using in their own vehicles, so I would imagine the more batteries the big players put in their cars the more royalties Tesla will get?

I'm sure Slow WIng will know.

Anyway I've never understood the negativity surrounding this car from some quarters. Don't people want more choice in the car market? I guess your politics has a lot to do with it unfortunately.

Nothing I have said is a negative, I said that things will happen as and when the infratsructure is really there and that consumers makea choice that supports an electric car. They are not really in the game right now. And as for Tech BMW , Mercedes and the big US guys will blow patents and tech the minute they feel they can make any part of profit or have a share in a meaningful market. At the moment Tesla are a Hobby firm.

towny wrote:Yeah, Ferrari are shitting themselves.

bimboman wrote:SW , how long will it be before Tesla turn a profit ?

Richard D. James wrote:Doesn't Tesla owns a lot of the tech that the big players are using in their own vehicles, so I would imagine the more batteries the big players put in their cars the more royalties Tesla will get? ...

Australia
S[ignature Model S] 38 (August 18, 2012)
P[roduction version Model S] 30 (July 13, 2012)

Tesla Motors Australia Pty Ltd
(02) 9666 3424
U9/ 1 Exell St
Banksmeadow NSW 2019

Local pricing and specifications for the Model S are still to be confirmed, although Tesla Australia's Jay McCormack has confirmed an early 2013 launch, with deliveries to begin mid-year.

Model s Net Total: 18,718 - December 25, 2012*
Model X Gross Total: 2,635 - December 20, 2012

Bill wrote:I think the bog standard electric golf buggy would do most urban dwellers as their 2nd car right now

You can easily get 4 hours driving out of them - perfectly adequate for the vast majority of little trips made by the average 2nd car

Nuclear power stations - electric cars - perfect combo

towny wrote:

slow wing wrote:Cheers for the information, FA.

You mentioned the batteries. Ford has endorsed Tesla's Panasonic batteries as the best in the world and is using it themselves in their Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid.

Next year Panasonic will be mass producing new batteries with a 30% increase in energy storage over this year's batteries of the same volume. They are using a new negative electrode where silicon replaces the graphite. We can expect such incremental improvements to continue for lithium ion batteries. Once they are good enough, electric cars will dominate in all sectors.

Will renewables have the capacity to handle all of the current load and all of the tens of millions of cars in the world?

Or will cars be ultimately powered using coal?

Fat Albert wrote:Slowy

There are 8,000 laptop batteries in one 85kwh Tesla pack, if they sell 20,000 units next year that could be 160,000,000 laptop batteries gone from the market! As a result, do you think that the consequence might be a distortion in the market and result in an effect on laptop battery prices?

I don't think you need to worry that too much mind, on Musk's past record Tesla will not get anywhere near the necessary 400 a week production, even if they could find the customers...

Global Li-ion Cell Shipments to Increase 9% in 2013: IEK-ITIS
2012/12/03
Taipei, Dec. 3, 2012 (CENS)--Global shipments of lithium-ion battery cells are estimated to reach 4.59 billion units, and the volume is expected to continue to rise 9% in 2013 with annual production value increasing 6% to US$12 billion, according to the Industrial Economics & Knowledge Center IEK-ITIS (Industry & Technology Intelligence Services) in Taiwan.

H.L. Lee, material analyst at IEK, pointed out that the cold global economy in the second and third quarters led to stagnated 3C (computer, communication, and consumer electronics) product sales, forcing most notebook PC assemblers to reduce shipment goals. So, IEK-ITIS has reduced its li-ion cell shipment forecast in 2012 from an annual growth of 12% to 9%. ...

...the weak demand from the 3C industry drove the prices of 18650 cylindrical li-ion cells to US$0.12-US$0.2/Wh (watt hour), while the prices for soft-pack cells (adopted mainly in ultrabooks or tablet PCs) remained at about US$0.5/Wh.

merlin the happy pig wrote:

towny wrote:

slow wing wrote:Cheers for the information, FA.

You mentioned the batteries. Ford has endorsed Tesla's Panasonic batteries as the best in the world and is using it themselves in their Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid.

Next year Panasonic will be mass producing new batteries with a 30% increase in energy storage over this year's batteries of the same volume. They are using a new negative electrode where silicon replaces the graphite. We can expect such incremental improvements to continue for lithium ion batteries. Once they are good enough, electric cars will dominate in all sectors.

Will renewables have the capacity to handle all of the current load and all of the tens of millions of cars in the world?

Or will cars be ultimately powered using coal?

Not as much of a problem as you might think because power stations far exceed the efficiency of ICE's.
Up to 60% if you include the use of waste heat for other industry.
In a real ICE the percentage would be probably be 25% if you don't include transmission losses as they are common to all drivetrains.

The charge/discharge cycle efficiency of batteries means that you are still way better off using electrics if efficiency of non-renewables is your focus.

slow wing wrote:Makes sense, Guy, for everyone with a hydrogen refilling station in their garage.


Oh yeah, and if they can also bring down the price of the fuel cells by a large factor. And make them more durable and reliable.


Ah, I forgot, and when they have a network of hydrogen refilling stations on the highway.


And perhaps also if there was a practical way to make hydrogen cheaply and in a sustainable way.


Also, if it wasn't so difficult to store the leaky stuff in a portable high-pressure container.




Maybe one or two teething issues with that technology then. If only there was a way, instead of using a fuel cell to create electricity, to store the electricity and use it directly...

slow wing wrote:2012 Tesla Model S Performance vs 2012 Mercedes-Benz E63 BiTurbo Non-PP 0-110 MPH - YouTube

Too easy? How about this then...
Video: Tesla Model S Defeats Dodge Viper SRT10 to Become Fastest Electric car


The start is carnage, with the electric car getting full torque immediately. That raises the obvious question, which would initially be quicker away from the lights: a Bugatti Veyron or a Tesla Model S?

deadduck wrote:

slow wing wrote:Makes sense, Guy, for everyone with a hydrogen refilling station in their garage.


Oh yeah, and if they can also bring down the price of the fuel cells by a large factor. And make them more durable and reliable.


Ah, I forgot, and when they have a network of hydrogen refilling stations on the highway.


And perhaps also if there was a practical way to make hydrogen cheaply and in a sustainable way.


Also, if it wasn't so difficult to store the leaky stuff in a portable high-pressure container.




Maybe one or two teething issues with that technology then. If only there was a way, instead of using a fuel cell to create electricity, to store the electricity and use it directly...

Have you thought about the consequences to the grid of everyone coming home from work at 5 pm and plugging in their cars to charge? Or everyone arriving at work at 8:30 am and plugging in their cars? There are already usage peaks between 5 and 9 pm and you would expect those to at least double. Where does that power come from?

That may be the failing of electric vehicles, it will require cooperation with investment in the grid capacity specifically for for those peak charge times. It's the kind of investment that will preclude the mainstream use of electric cars, but no one is going to invest that money unless electric cars become mainstream. Catch-22, someone is going to have to risk a white elephant.

towny wrote:

slow wing wrote:Cheers for the information, FA.

You mentioned the batteries. Ford has endorsed Tesla's Panasonic batteries as the best in the world and is using it themselves in their Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid.

Next year Panasonic will be mass producing new batteries with a 30% increase in energy storage over this year's batteries of the same volume. They are using a new negative electrode where silicon replaces the graphite. We can expect such incremental improvements to continue for lithium ion batteries. Once they are good enough, electric cars will dominate in all sectors.

Will renewables have the capacity to handle all of the current load and all of the tens of millions of cars in the world?

Or will cars be ultimately powered using coal?

deadduck wrote:Perhaps a system similar to diesel road user charges should be applied to electric vehicles, a portion of which will go to expanding network capacity and a portion of which will replace the fuel taxes they're not paying.

deadduck wrote:

slow wing wrote:Makes sense, Guy, for everyone with a hydrogen refilling station in their garage.


Oh yeah, and if they can also bring down the price of the fuel cells by a large factor. And make them more durable and reliable.


Ah, I forgot, and when they have a network of hydrogen refilling stations on the highway.


And perhaps also if there was a practical way to make hydrogen cheaply and in a sustainable way.


Also, if it wasn't so difficult to store the leaky stuff in a portable high-pressure container.




Maybe one or two teething issues with that technology then. If only there was a way, instead of using a fuel cell to create electricity, to store the electricity and use it directly...

Have you thought about the consequences to the grid of everyone coming home from work at 5 pm and plugging in their cars to charge? Or everyone arriving at work at 8:30 am and plugging in their cars? There are already usage peaks between 5 and 9 pm and you would expect those to at least double. Where does that power come from?

That may be the failing of electric vehicles, it will require cooperation with investment in the grid capacity specifically for for those peak charge times. It's the kind of investment that will preclude the mainstream use of electric cars, but no one is going to invest that money unless electric cars become mainstream. Catch-22, someone is going to have to risk a white elephant.


As for making hydrogen, it's cheap and sustainable already if you just whack an electrolysis plant onto the back of a solar power plant. I still think it's a bit of a goose chase anyhow, and would rather see some exploration of the potential of the methanol fuel cell.