**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Double · Post by **Double** » Mon May 06, 2013 4:21 pm

JM2K6 wrote:Should he be? He's still a shadow of the player we know.

I think he's still better than Goode, but that could be my bias. With all these new players winning first caps there needs to be one or two old heads to bookend them, Foden is one of the most-capped current England backline players in contention for 2015. If we want him instead of Goode in two years time, he needs time to mesh with the rest of the team, and I think more game-time will do him good.

geordie_6 · Post by **geordie_6** » Mon May 06, 2013 4:45 pm

Double wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Should he be? He's still a shadow of the player we know.
I think he's still better than Goode, but that could be my bias. With all these new players winning first caps there needs to be one or two old heads to bookend them, Foden is one of the most-capped current England backline players in contention for 2015. If we want him instead of Goode in two years time, he needs time to mesh with the rest of the team, and I think more game-time will do him good.

Brown might be the better shout though, for the 15 shirt, with Foden in #23. Brown has played well for Quins and England this term, and has earned a shot in his actual position.

I'm concerned that the squad will include guys who simply have not earned their chance, like Tait or Eastmond. Tomkins too.

Wendigo7 · Post by **Wendigo7** » Mon May 06, 2013 4:48 pm

geordie_6 wrote:
Double wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Should he be? He's still a shadow of the player we know.
I think he's still better than Goode, but that could be my bias. With all these new players winning first caps there needs to be one or two old heads to bookend them, Foden is one of the most-capped current England backline players in contention for 2015. If we want him instead of Goode in two years time, he needs time to mesh with the rest of the team, and I think more game-time will do him good.
Brown might be the better shout though, for the 15 shirt, with Foden in #23. Brown has played well for Quins and England this term, and has earned a shot in his actual position.

I'm concerned that the squad will include guys who simply have not earned their chance, like Tait or Eastmond. Tomkins too.

Tomkins is in good form lately I'm not sure where that comes from. The only thing I don't want to see is unfit players picked, or shoehorning of certain individuals just to get them on the pitch, ala Ashton, Wood and Croft in the 6Ns, it did us no favours.

We need 36 to play consistently now at 12, and be the 12, and hopefully Burns can kick on at 10, and nail the spot. Farrell's passing is very hit and miss, and combined with a defensive backrow which didn't turn over ball much, and a 10-12 combo which was shaky and couldn't pass at all, it completely limited our style of play and we're going to need to find more than that.

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 4:55 pm

Tomkins has had a few good games but he was pretty gash for the Saxons and his form hasn't really demanded a callup. They were going to pick him if he managed to stay upright thanks to our absurd obsession with rugby league players.

Farrell got a lot of flak for his mistakes in the HEC but Tomkins was just as guilty of spastic passing.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:04 pm

JM2K6 wrote:Tomkins has had a few good games but he was pretty gash for the Saxons and his form hasn't really demanded a callup. They were going to pick him if he managed to stay upright thanks to our absurd obsession with rugby league players.

Farrell got a lot of flak for his mistakes in the HEC but Tomkins was just as guilty of spastic passing.

How many poor passes did they throw. I can only remember the one each. Although they were both pretty bad. Watching it live I thought Farrell must have put in a kick for the winger

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:06 pm

Anonymous wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Tomkins has had a few good games but he was pretty gash for the Saxons and his form hasn't really demanded a callup. They were going to pick him if he managed to stay upright thanks to our absurd obsession with rugby league players.

Farrell got a lot of flak for his mistakes in the HEC but Tomkins was just as guilty of spastic passing.
How many poor passes did they throw. I can only remember the one each. Although they were both pretty bad. Watching it live I thought Farrell must have put in a kick for the winger

Tomkins threw another bad one IIRC.

Double · Post by **Double** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:08 pm

JM2K6 wrote:Tomkins has had a few good games but he was pretty gash for the Saxons and his form hasn't really demanded a callup. They were going to pick him if he managed to stay upright thanks to our absurd obsession with rugby league players.

Farrell got a lot of flak for his mistakes in the HEC but Tomkins was just as guilty of spastic passing.

More to do with our obsession with Saracens players. Is there an EQP in their squad who hasn't had at least some concerted over-hyping (Saull?) or a few crappy games in an England shirt (a la Botha)? Calling up Tomkins would be premature, there are a lot of good outside centers around at the moment. The real experiments are needed in the back 3 and possibly the backrow.

Wendigo7 · Post by **Wendigo7** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:09 pm

JM2K6 wrote:Tomkins has had a few good games but he was pretty gash for the Saxons and his form hasn't really demanded a callup. They were going to pick him if he managed to stay upright thanks to our absurd obsession with rugby league players.

Farrell got a lot of flak for his mistakes in the HEC but Tomkins was just as guilty of spastic passing.

Contractual agreements JM.

I think that has been proven with the majority of high profile signings from League to Union, the player must ask in the contract that he be involved in the England set up within in an X period of time when switching codes, otherwise, no deal/code-switch. Too many league converts have come over as internationals for that to be otherwise. The RFU has some blame for this as much as anyone really.

chaddy · Post by **chaddy** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:15 pm

Not sure about that, Lee Smith and Chev Walker didn't get a sniff did they?

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:18 pm

Yeah that sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Double wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Tomkins has had a few good games but he was pretty gash for the Saxons and his form hasn't really demanded a callup. They were going to pick him if he managed to stay upright thanks to our absurd obsession with rugby league players.

Farrell got a lot of flak for his mistakes in the HEC but Tomkins was just as guilty of spastic passing.
More to do with our obsession with Saracens players. Is there an EQP in their squad who hasn't had at least some concerted over-hyping (Saull?) or a few crappy games in an England shirt (a la Botha)? Calling up Tomkins would be premature, there are a lot of good outside centers around at the moment. The real experiments are needed in the back 3 and possibly the backrow.

Lancaster has always seen Tomkins as a player who he expected to be a key member of his squad. I can't see how Tomkins won't be called up seeing as he was in the squad at times during the 6N's.

chaddy · Post by **chaddy** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:22 pm

Actually just checking, Lee Smith played one game for Wasps before moving back to Leeds

What a waste, fantastic before he crossed, didn't give it a decent shot and has done next to nothing since moving back to League

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:23 pm

Walker and Pryce were two of the worst professional rugby players I've ever seen. Genuinely cack-handed.

chaddy · Post by **chaddy** » Mon May 06, 2013 5:25 pm

Ha, forgot about Karl Pryce, another massive waste of talent.

Would love to know how much Smith, Walker and Pryce made from switching

geordie_6 · Post by **geordie_6** » Mon May 06, 2013 6:57 pm

Wendigo7 wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:
Double wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Should he be? He's still a shadow of the player we know.
I think he's still better than Goode, but that could be my bias. With all these new players winning first caps there needs to be one or two old heads to bookend them, Foden is one of the most-capped current England backline players in contention for 2015. If we want him instead of Goode in two years time, he needs time to mesh with the rest of the team, and I think more game-time will do him good.
Brown might be the better shout though, for the 15 shirt, with Foden in #23. Brown has played well for Quins and England this term, and has earned a shot in his actual position.

I'm concerned that the squad will include guys who simply have not earned their chance, like Tait or Eastmond. Tomkins too.
Tomkins is in good form lately I'm not sure where that comes from. The only thing I don't want to see is unfit players picked, or shoehorning of certain individuals just to get them on the pitch, ala Ashton, Wood and Croft in the 6Ns, it did us no favours.

We need 36 to play consistently now at 12, and be the 12, and hopefully Burns can kick on at 10, and nail the spot. Farrell's passing is very hit and miss, and combined with a defensive backrow which didn't turn over ball much, and a 10-12 combo which was shaky and couldn't pass at all, it completely limited our style of play and we're going to need to find more than that.

JM pretty much covered it: hasn't done enough, consistently, to earn a spot in my opinion. I'd rather us go with someone like JJ at 13 outside 36 and Burns. I prefer JJ's skillset at 13 over a player like Tomkins.

Margin_Walker · Post by **Margin_Walker** » Mon May 06, 2013 7:09 pm

geordie_6 wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:
Double wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Should he be? He's still a shadow of the player we know.
I think he's still better than Goode, but that could be my bias. With all these new players winning first caps there needs to be one or two old heads to bookend them, Foden is one of the most-capped current England backline players in contention for 2015. If we want him instead of Goode in two years time, he needs time to mesh with the rest of the team, and I think more game-time will do him good.
Brown might be the better shout though, for the 15 shirt, with Foden in #23. Brown has played well for Quins and England this term, and has earned a shot in his actual position.

I'm concerned that the squad will include guys who simply have not earned their chance, like Tait or Eastmond. Tomkins too.
Tomkins is in good form lately I'm not sure where that comes from. The only thing I don't want to see is unfit players picked, or shoehorning of certain individuals just to get them on the pitch, ala Ashton, Wood and Croft in the 6Ns, it did us no favours.

We need 36 to play consistently now at 12, and be the 12, and hopefully Burns can kick on at 10, and nail the spot. Farrell's passing is very hit and miss, and combined with a defensive backrow which didn't turn over ball much, and a 10-12 combo which was shaky and couldn't pass at all, it completely limited our style of play and we're going to need to find more than that.
JM pretty much covered it: hasn't done enough, consistently, to earn a spot in my opinion. I'd rather us go with someone like JJ at 13 outside 36 and Burns. I prefer JJ's skillset at 13 over a player like Tomkins.

JJ has looked pretty ordinary since returning from injury. Kept out of the side by Armitage until this weekend (where Armitage was shifted to 12) and didn't really do anything to impress. Think he needs to show a bit of form next season at Bath before talking about him for England again.

openclashXX · Post by **openclashXX** » Mon May 06, 2013 7:22 pm

Margin_Walker wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:JM pretty much covered it: hasn't done enough, consistently, to earn a spot in my opinion. I'd rather us go with someone like JJ at 13 outside 36 and Burns. I prefer JJ's skillset at 13 over a player like Tomkins.
JJ has looked pretty ordinary since returning from injury. Kept out of the side by Armitage until this weekend (where Armitage was shifted to 12) and didn't really do anything to impress. Think he needs to show a bit of form next season at Bath before talking about him for England again.

beat me to it. selecting JJ over tomkins would be reputation over form, if even that. JJ has played so little at 13 this season in between his injuries that making a case for him ahead of tomkins seems daft. daly perhaps, but he's clearly being eyed up more as a fullback than a 13 by england.

who else is there at 13 ahead of tomkins? george lowe? turnstile trinder? matt banahan?

geordie_6 · Post by **geordie_6** » Mon May 06, 2013 7:29 pm

openclashXX wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:JM pretty much covered it: hasn't done enough, consistently, to earn a spot in my opinion. I'd rather us go with someone like JJ at 13 outside 36 and Burns. I prefer JJ's skillset at 13 over a player like Tomkins.
JJ has looked pretty ordinary since returning from injury. Kept out of the side by Armitage until this weekend (where Armitage was shifted to 12) and didn't really do anything to impress. Think he needs to show a bit of form next season at Bath before talking about him for England again.
beat me to it. selecting JJ over tomkins would be reputation over form, if even that. JJ has played so little at 13 this season in between his injuries that making a case for him ahead of tomkins seems daft. daly perhaps, but he's clearly being eyed up more as a fullback than a 13 by england.

He hasn't been in form/fit, but I prefer him and his skillset/style to that of Tomkins.

Margin_Walker · Post by **Margin_Walker** » Mon May 06, 2013 7:37 pm

geordie_6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:JM pretty much covered it: hasn't done enough, consistently, to earn a spot in my opinion. I'd rather us go with someone like JJ at 13 outside 36 and Burns. I prefer JJ's skillset at 13 over a player like Tomkins.
JJ has looked pretty ordinary since returning from injury. Kept out of the side by Armitage until this weekend (where Armitage was shifted to 12) and didn't really do anything to impress. Think he needs to show a bit of form next season at Bath before talking about him for England again.
beat me to it. selecting JJ over tomkins would be reputation over form, if even that. JJ has played so little at 13 this season in between his injuries that making a case for him ahead of tomkins seems daft. daly perhaps, but he's clearly being eyed up more as a fullback than a 13 by england.
He hasn't been in form/fit, but I prefer him and his skillset/style to that of Tomkins.

Not the biggest fan of Tomkins myself, but I think you send out the wrong message when you pick on reputation (at least on someone who doesn't have proven international calibre). I think if you're looking at style of player, then Trinder, Daly etc may be better bets.

openclashXX · Post by **openclashXX** » Mon May 06, 2013 7:37 pm

geordie_6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:JM pretty much covered it: hasn't done enough, consistently, to earn a spot in my opinion. I'd rather us go with someone like JJ at 13 outside 36 and Burns. I prefer JJ's skillset at 13 over a player like Tomkins.
JJ has looked pretty ordinary since returning from injury. Kept out of the side by Armitage until this weekend (where Armitage was shifted to 12) and didn't really do anything to impress. Think he needs to show a bit of form next season at Bath before talking about him for England again.
beat me to it. selecting JJ over tomkins would be reputation over form, if even that. JJ has played so little at 13 this season in between his injuries that making a case for him ahead of tomkins seems daft. daly perhaps, but he's clearly being eyed up more as a fullback than a 13 by england.
He hasn't been in form/fit, but I prefer him and his skillset/style to that of Tomkins.

i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club

geordie_6 · Post by **geordie_6** » Mon May 06, 2013 7:43 pm

openclashXX wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:JM pretty much covered it: hasn't done enough, consistently, to earn a spot in my opinion. I'd rather us go with someone like JJ at 13 outside 36 and Burns. I prefer JJ's skillset at 13 over a player like Tomkins.
JJ has looked pretty ordinary since returning from injury. Kept out of the side by Armitage until this weekend (where Armitage was shifted to 12) and didn't really do anything to impress. Think he needs to show a bit of form next season at Bath before talking about him for England again.
beat me to it. selecting JJ over tomkins would be reputation over form, if even that. JJ has played so little at 13 this season in between his injuries that making a case for him ahead of tomkins seems daft. daly perhaps, but he's clearly being eyed up more as a fullback than a 13 by england.
He hasn't been in form/fit, but I prefer him and his skillset/style to that of Tomkins.
i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club

Because I don't rate him.

MW, I'd be happy with Trinder or Daly, especially over Tomkins. Sadly, I think his inclusion is set to go ahead.

Joost · Post by **Joost** » Mon May 06, 2013 8:10 pm

chaddy wrote:Not sure about that, Lee Smith and Chev Walker didn't get a sniff did they?

Walker played a couple of games for the Saxons iirc, but never looked up to much - strong in contact but terrible hands. Karl Pryce couldn't even get in the Glaws team.

I think some players were fast-tracked where the RFU had contributed towards their transfer fee or had been involved in bringing them over (Henry Paul, Andy Farrell etc). Don't think that's happened recently, with the likes of Ashton, Eastmond, Tomkins etc.

Re Foden; he's not in great form but at least he doesn't fall off tackles in the way that Goode always seems to (and Brown does occasionally) - someone you could genuinely rely on as a last-ditch defender and covering across. Ashton, Goode and Brown made a seriously limp back 3 in that sense.

openclashXX · Post by **openclashXX** » Mon May 06, 2013 8:38 pm

geordie_6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
geordie_6 wrote: He hasn't been in form/fit, but I prefer him and his skillset/style to that of Tomkins.
i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club
Because I don't rate him.

why not?

and don't say sarries/rugby league

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 8:42 pm

openclashXX wrote:i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club

The form 13 in the AP? Hmm. Daly's played some 13 and does more. I'd even pick Eastmond ahead of him, at least he has a passing game of sorts. Tuilagi is miles ahead of him as a battering ram / offloader.

He got given a few chances for the Saxons. He was f**king bad.

Joost wrote:Re Foden; he's not in great form but at least he doesn't fall off tackles in the way that Goode always seems to (and Brown does occasionally) - someone you could genuinely rely on as a last-ditch defender and covering across. Ashton, Goode and Brown made a seriously limp back 3 in that sense.

That's one of the many things he HAS been doing since coming back from injury. And I don't know if you saw his efforts as a cover defender at the weekend but

Missed tackle percentage of 23% in the league this season - same as Goode. Brown is on 14%.

bacon · Post by **bacon** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:01 pm

I think they may be trying out Tomkins as he is a similar type of player to Manu.
So if they need a like for like replacement they want to know if he up to a decent standard (eg if Manu goes down midweek can the bring someone in without having to change the entire way they play - for example if jj came in "crash ball of first phase from the outside center to get go forward and tie up the opposing loose forwards" wouldn't work as well.)
In the same vein as manu is a close to an automatic pick as we have lancaster may want to see how some possibles (eg wade/may on the wings) can play with the same kind of player and game plan. Ie can may/wade track a the big offloading center like ashton used to for example. Also the coaches might see little point in seeing some players excel in a much different game-plan than the want to play with the lions back. So if some of the new lads do well in an barbarians style gameplan with lots of small jinking players with JJ at 13 but we get hockeyed (not say it will happen its at all but a possibility)- how much does lancaster know about how they will perform in the more conservative style he wants to play leading up to the WC?

openclashXX · Post by **openclashXX** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:02 pm

JM2K6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club
The form 13 in the AP? Hmm. Daly's played some 13 and does more. I'd even pick Eastmond ahead of him, at least he has a passing game of sorts. Tuilagi is miles ahead of him as a battering ram / offloader.

He got given a few chances for the Saxons. He was f**king bad.

eastmond has been playing at 12, daly been shifting around a lot but mainly (when available) at 15 where wasps see his future. neither are a fair comparison, especially since neither will be at 13 next season

the EQPs playing first choice at 13 this season are tuilagi, tomkins, lowe/hopper, trinder/tindall, banahan and armitage. tuilagi is the best of the lot when he can be arsed, but the last time that happened was in the game vs saints. he notably went missing in the HEC match vs toulon. lowe missed half the season with injury, trinder is a complete turnstile in defence, banahan is banahan and armitage is just a loan player who happens to be english qualified

tomkins is the best of a pretty average bunch, admittedly, but he certainly deserves his spot ahead of JJ right now. i also wouldn't pay too much attention to a second-string piss-about

geordie_6 · Post by **geordie_6** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:09 pm

openclashXX wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
geordie_6 wrote: He hasn't been in form/fit, but I prefer him and his skillset/style to that of Tomkins.
i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club
Because I don't rate him.
why not?

and don't say sarries/rugby league

His club or previous crimes have nothing to do with it, I just don't believe he is very good. I don't see him as the future, or even the present, in the position for England as I'm yet to see him do much of note which would warrant a senior cap. He has little pace, his passing is iffy, and he seems to go into tackles whilst flailing the ball around in one hand, which seems to have given him the reputation of having an "offloading game".

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:12 pm

openclashXX wrote:eastmond has been playing at 12

IIRC he played a decent amount of 13.

daly been shifting around a lot but mainly (when available) at 15 where wasps see his future. neither are a fair comparison, especially since neither will be at 13 next season

Eastmond might not be, but Daly keeps getting games at 13. Like, say, at the weekend.

trinder is a complete turnstile in defence

Harsh. Tomkins - 82% tackle rate. Trinder - 77%. Not exactly a massive difference, and Trinder is by some distance the classier attacker.

Tomkins is a big guy who does one thing very well and that's offload. He also concedes a fuckload of possession.

tomkins is the best of a pretty average bunch, admittedly, but he certainly deserves his spot ahead of JJ right now. i also wouldn't pay too much attention to a second-string piss-about

Well I do kinda give a shit about players picking up caps and being earmarked for the future when they've been a bag of wank at Saxons level.

Margin_Walker · Post by **Margin_Walker** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:15 pm

openclashXX wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club
The form 13 in the AP? Hmm. Daly's played some 13 and does more. I'd even pick Eastmond ahead of him, at least he has a passing game of sorts. Tuilagi is miles ahead of him as a battering ram / offloader.

He got given a few chances for the Saxons. He was f**king bad.
eastmond has been playing at 12, daly been shifting around a lot but mainly (when available) at 15 where wasps see his future. neither are a fair comparison, especially since neither will be at 13 next season

the EQPs playing first choice at 13 this season are tuilagi, tomkins, lowe/hopper, trinder/tindall, banahan and armitage. tuilagi is the best of the lot when he can be arsed, but the last time that happened was in the game vs saints. he notably went missing in the HEC match vs toulon. lowe missed half the season with injury, trinder is a complete turnstile in defence, banahan is banahan and armitage is just a loan player who happens to be english qualified

tomkins is the best of a pretty average bunch, admittedly, but he certainly deserves his spot ahead of JJ right now. i also wouldn't pay too much attention to a second-string piss-about

Armitage was resigned from Toulon half way through the season. Agree with the thrust of the post though. Would't have a problem with giving Tomkins a proper go in Argentina in the absence of anyone making an irresistible case for selection.

Petros · Post by **Petros** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:20 pm

Daly has played most of his games for wasps, and the U20s, at 13, but has the pace to cover/play on the wing where he's played a few times for wasps. until the Saxons games, where Bomber apparently made the decisions, he had played 2 (3?) games for wasps at FB.

he also has the merit of a very big boot.

Joost · Post by **Joost** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:22 pm

JM2K6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:i still don't see the logic in leaving out (arguably) the form 13 in the aviva this season for somebody who can barely get a start for their club
The form 13 in the AP? Hmm. Daly's played some 13 and does more. I'd even pick Eastmond ahead of him, at least he has a passing game of sorts. Tuilagi is miles ahead of him as a battering ram / offloader.

He got given a few chances for the Saxons. He was f**king bad.

Joost wrote:Re Foden; he's not in great form but at least he doesn't fall off tackles in the way that Goode always seems to (and Brown does occasionally) - someone you could genuinely rely on as a last-ditch defender and covering across. Ashton, Goode and Brown made a seriously limp back 3 in that sense.
That's one of the many things he HAS been doing since coming back from injury. And I don't know if you saw his efforts as a cover defender at the weekend but

Missed tackle percentage of 23% in the league this season - same as Goode. Brown is on 14%.

Only just seen the highlights now. Still, I've not seen him continually steamrollered in the way Goode had been this season for England. Our back 3 definitely needs re-jigging as a matter of urgency and I reckon Foden will be involved somewhere come 2015, more than likely as a wing, might be better taking this summer off though.

Eastmond's value is as a second receiver imo, he has a very nice flat passing game and gets between defenders and offloads well. His big issue is his defence, which would be magnified at 13. Might be worth a go in one of the BaaBaas style games.

One player I'd like to see in the Saxons who never gets a mention is Luther Burrell.

bacon · Post by **bacon** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:22 pm

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:24 pm

Joost wrote:Only just seen the highlights now. Still, I've not seen him continually steamrollered in the way Goode had been this season for England. Our back 3 definitely needs re-jigging as a matter of urgency and I reckon Foden will be involved somewhere come 2015, more than likely as a wing, might be better taking this summer off though.

Yeah Foden can tackle head-on far better than Goode, that's true.

Eastmond's value is as a second receiver imo, he has a very nice flat passing game and gets between defenders and offloads well. His big issue is his defence, which would be magnified at 13. Might be worth a go in one of the BaaBaas style games.

You've probably seen a lot more of him than me and I'm not a massive fan of his but his defence seems really solid to me. The stats back it up too - best tackle percentage of anyone mentioned on this thread.

One player I'd like to see in the Saxons who never gets a mention is Luther Burrell.

Yep. Deserves JTH's place. That mid-season disappearance where Saints forgot all about him has cost him.

Joost · Post by **Joost** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:34 pm

JM2K6 wrote:
Joost wrote: Eastmond's value is as a second receiver imo, he has a very nice flat passing game and gets between defenders and offloads well. His big issue is his defence, which would be magnified at 13. Might be worth a go in one of the BaaBaas style games.
You've probably seen a lot more of him than me and I'm not a massive fan of his but his defence seems really solid to me. The stats back it up too - best tackle percentage of anyone mentioned on this thread.

Stats don't tell the whole story here, he's mainly been playing at 12 where the backrow protect him pretty well but he inevitably cedes a lot of ground when his channel gets attacked. Seems to have been a big part of the reason he and Banahan were swapped around towards the end of the season.

JM2K6 wrote:
Joost wrote:One player I'd like to see in the Saxons who never gets a mention is Luther Burrell.
Yep. Deserves JTH's place. That mid-season disappearance where Saints forgot all about him has cost him.

He's the sort of player who'd have been straight in under previous regimes - big, played league, dodgy accent. Smashes holes in attack, retains the ball and offloads nicely and seems to score plenty of tries (6 in 8 starts in the AP apparently), he'd be my boshing 12 of choice.

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:38 pm

Joost wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Joost wrote: Eastmond's value is as a second receiver imo, he has a very nice flat passing game and gets between defenders and offloads well. His big issue is his defence, which would be magnified at 13. Might be worth a go in one of the BaaBaas style games.
You've probably seen a lot more of him than me and I'm not a massive fan of his but his defence seems really solid to me. The stats back it up too - best tackle percentage of anyone mentioned on this thread.
Stats don't tell the whole story here, he's mainly been playing at 12 where the backrow protect him pretty well but he inevitably cedes a lot of ground when his channel gets attacked. Seems to have been a big part of the reason he and Banahan were swapped around towards the end of the season.

Ah. Is that likely to a bigger problem at 13? Would've thought that's where a player like him is more useful in defence - less likely to be defending against big runners, more likely to be trying to cover the faster guys. Technically he seems strong. George Lowe is another player of similar size (but quicker) who's been an excellent defensive 13 for a few seasons.

Joost · Post by **Joost** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:54 pm

JM2K6 wrote:
Ah. Is that likely to a bigger problem at 13? Would've thought that's where a player like him is more useful in defence - less likely to be defending against big runners, more likely to be trying to cover the faster guys. Technically he seems strong. George Lowe is another player of similar size (but quicker) who's been an excellent defensive 13 for a few seasons.

Trouble is when you get numbers on the outside and you get a more physical 13 who can either run over him or overpower him and get the offload away. At least further inside you have a better chance of the backrow helping him out. To be fair to him he doesn't fall off many, but he's never going to be a particularly strong defender.

His passing close to the defensive line is very good though - crisp, quick and accurate and he seems to time it well to put people away. Can step and get between defenders fairly well and he's stronger than he looks. He's not consistently screaming 'international centre' with his form for Bath, but he's had enough flashes of genuine skill to make me think he might swim rather than sink if thrown in to that environment on the Arg tour.

DragsterDriver · Post by **DragsterDriver** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:56 pm

I think foden is looking better, should thrive back in a white shirt.

openclashXX · Post by **openclashXX** » Mon May 06, 2013 9:59 pm

JM2K6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:eastmond has been playing at 12
IIRC he played a decent amount of 13.

he started the season on the wing, played a handful at 13 and was found to be most effective in attack/defence at 12. his future clearly lies at 12

daly been shifting around a lot but mainly (when available) at 15 where wasps see his future. neither are a fair comparison, especially since neither will be at 13 next season
Eastmond might not be, but Daly keeps getting games at 13. Like, say, at the weekend.

shane howarth has repeatedly said that daly is going to play at 15 long-term, given his broken field running and his boot. he's being groomed as southwell's replacement.

trinder is a complete turnstile in defence
Harsh. Tomkins - 82% tackle rate. Trinder - 77%. Not exactly a massive difference, and Trinder is by some distance the classier attacker.

Tomkins is a big guy who does one thing very well and that's offload. He also concedes a fuckload of possession.

trinder isn't just a poor defender statistically, he's a fanny in defence. repeatedly gets targeted by opposition centres/forwards, most glaring example was vs quins where buchanan steamrollered him 10m out from the try line and scored, i also remember in an england vs baa-baas game in 2011 where his appalling missed tackle on paul sackey (literally got nowhere near him and was palmed off with ease) directly led to a try

tomkins is the best of a pretty average bunch, admittedly, but he certainly deserves his spot ahead of JJ right now. i also wouldn't pay too much attention to a second-string piss-about
Well I do kinda give a shit about players picking up caps and being earmarked for the future when they've been a bag of wank at Saxons level.

i'll cut tomkins the slack given that he was playing outside the dynamic, creative midfield presence of jordan turner-hall

JM2K6 · Post by **JM2K6** » Mon May 06, 2013 10:21 pm

DragsterDriver wrote:I think foden is looking better, should thrive back in a white shirt.

Eh? He was absolute shite at the weekend. I felt bad for the guy.

openclashXX wrote:trinder isn't just a poor defender statistically, he's a fanny in defence. repeatedly gets targeted by opposition centres/forwards, most glaring example was vs quins where buchanan steamrollered him 10m out from the try line and scored, i also remember in an england vs baa-baas game in 2011 where his appalling missed tackle on paul sackey (literally got nowhere near him and was palmed off with ease) directly led to a try

In 2011? fudge me. He had just turned 21? Buchanan's been steamrollering a lot of people. Saw him do it to Toulon last season.

tomkins is the best of a pretty average bunch, admittedly, but he certainly deserves his spot ahead of JJ right now. i also wouldn't pay too much attention to a second-string piss-about
Well I do kinda give a shit about players picking up caps and being earmarked for the future when they've been a bag of wank at Saxons level.
i'll cut tomkins the slack given that he was playing outside the dynamic, creative midfield presence of jordan turner-hall

Even without JTH there he was f**king shite. Having JTH next to you doesn't stop you from having a personal skill set.

Obviously at Saracens he plays outside an attacking maestro the likes of which the world has never seen before

openclashXX · Post by **openclashXX** » Mon May 06, 2013 10:40 pm

JM2K6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:trinder isn't just a poor defender statistically, he's a fanny in defence. repeatedly gets targeted by opposition centres/forwards, most glaring example was vs quins where buchanan steamrollered him 10m out from the try line and scored, i also remember in an england vs baa-baas game in 2011 where his appalling missed tackle on paul sackey (literally got nowhere near him and was palmed off with ease) directly led to a try
In 2011? fudge me. He had just turned 21? Buchanan's been steamrollering a lot of people. Saw him do it to Toulon last season.

for a start, i don't buy into your statistical argument, according to the statto machine on the telegraph cipriani is made out to be a decent defender ffs

i personally do not rate trinder at all, he's been fairly hit and miss so far in both attack and especially defence, tindall has been first choice ahead of him for most of the season and he isn't even a full time player

tomkins is the best of a pretty average bunch, admittedly, but he certainly deserves his spot ahead of JJ right now. i also wouldn't pay too much attention to a second-string piss-about
Well I do kinda give a shit about players picking up caps and being earmarked for the future when they've been a bag of wank at Saxons level.
i'll cut tomkins the slack given that he was playing outside the dynamic, creative midfield presence of jordan turner-hall

Even without JTH there he was f**king shite. Having JTH next to you doesn't stop you from having a personal skill set.

Obviously at Saracens he plays outside an attacking maestro the likes of which the world has never seen before[/quote]

i don't remember the exact performances of each player in those games but i remember being quite impressed by the pack as a whole and being very underwhelmed with the backs aside from the halfbacks. there was no cohesion whatsoever and not a single one out of 11-15 enhanced their reputation

still doesn't mean i'm writing any of them off