**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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Wendigo7
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

bealonian wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:On the positive, two excellent fullback displays yesterday :)

Alex goode must be looking over his shoulder now.
Tait, while not the messiah he was made out to be when first on the scene, is showing now what he can do when partnered with a decent pack (sorry Falcons / Sharks fans). I've been one of those who bagged him for his poor option taking in an England shirt over the years but, for the 2nd half of the season, his form for Tiggers appears pretty good and I see a greater maturity and awareness in his game. Love the fact that, when he pins his ears back, he's still got a huge amount of pace to get him out of the initial tackle.

As for Foden, that game was the one we've been waiting for.

Good to see from both.
This. Burrell was a big surprise for me, I didn't think he was that good, great basic skills. The scrummies were fantastic, thought Ben Youngs was excellent when it mattered, always delivers when it really counts. Dicksons form is good news for the tour. Lawes and Wood, Tom Youngs all played well. Hartley and Croft weren't that great, Tuilagi was ok, but, crucially showed what happens when he's in the team and you have other dangermen in the side.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by geordie_6 »

Wendigo7 wrote:
bealonian wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:On the positive, two excellent fullback displays yesterday :)

Alex goode must be looking over his shoulder now.
Tait, while not the messiah he was made out to be when first on the scene, is showing now what he can do when partnered with a decent pack (sorry Falcons / Sharks fans). I've been one of those who bagged him for his poor option taking in an England shirt over the years but, for the 2nd half of the season, his form for Tiggers appears pretty good and I see a greater maturity and awareness in his game. Love the fact that, when he pins his ears back, he's still got a huge amount of pace to get him out of the initial tackle.

As for Foden, that game was the one we've been waiting for.

Good to see from both.
This. Burrell was a big surprise for me, I didn't think he was that good, great basic skills. The scrummies were fantastic, thought Ben Youngs was excellent when it mattered, always delivers when it really counts. Dicksons form is good news for the tour. Lawes and Wood, Tom Youngs all played well. Hartley and Croft weren't that great, Tuilagi was ok, but, crucially showed what happens when he's in the team and you have other dangermen in the side.
Youngs seemed to have a bit of an off day in the lineout, for the first time in a while.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

Still not happy with Tait under the high ball but he was again excellent aside from that, and Foden looked somewhere near his best.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

JM2K6 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Wondered what would happen with our collection of hookers. We seem to have a good relationship with Worcs - quite a few players shifting to them after being with us.

Brooker was briefly a cracking player but that injury was so badly timed. With Gray, Buchanan, Ward, and uh some youngster we're well covered. Hope he stays injury free.
Have Quins made any new signings aside from Doran-Jones this summer? I can't imagine they'd need to, given the success of their youngsters in the LV, but I haven't heard anything about a replacement for Clegg, and with two fairly experienced THPs leaving, I'm surprised they haven't gone with a safer signing than Doran-Jones.
Two tightheads leaving? We lost Fairbrother ages ago and he hadn't contributed for a while, Collier is already the better option and Sinckler is a Marler-style U20s hero. Clegg's left because there's no room for him to play regularly - we have Evans & Botica, with Grimoldby as the development option.

I haven't heard of any new signings but I do think we need one or two; we have a heap of back 3 players but only Brown is consistently dangerous, the rest are all worthy players but none of them terrify teams. Ugo isn't the player he was in 2009, Williams is getting quite flaky and slowing down, and the youngsters are hard working but flawed.
openclashXX wrote:Who would be next in line if he weren't to make it? Fearns? Kruis? Gibson?
Depends what they see him as. If it's a lock, then Kruis. If it's a flanker, then Wallace or Fearns.
Would be a real coup for Quins to sign a genuine game-breaking winger, Williams and Smith have always seemed decent enough finishers with pace but like you said, nothing to terrify a team on a kick-return or from broken field play.

It's hard to pick who, since it's all based on what position they saw Clark playing. Lancaster seems odd about that, Clark plays 6 for his club (with Wood at 7, oddly enough) but I'd consider him more of an openside than Wood. It would've made sense for Kvesic and Clark to have been the two opensides on this tour, with Wood and Johnson the blindsides, but then Lancaster went out and said that he'd be trying Johnson out at 7. So then I think I'm right in saying that Clark was seen as a 6?

Which is even more confusing in terms of speculating a replacement, because Fearns is the out-and-out blindside out of those you listed, but he's probably in the worst form of the three, and we don't really need to develop much more depth at 6. Kruis is a lock that Sarries have been playing at 6 all season, but they're grooming him to become a lineout caller once Borthwick retires. Wallace is obviously the 7, which would rule him out of being called up, unless Lancaster has a change of heart and now sees Johnson as a 6?

Makes my head heart.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

In the papers yesterday he referred to Kvesic, Fraser, and Wallace as the queue behind Robshaw at 7.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Wendigo7 wrote:
bealonian wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:On the positive, two excellent fullback displays yesterday :)

Alex goode must be looking over his shoulder now.
Tait, while not the messiah he was made out to be when first on the scene, is showing now what he can do when partnered with a decent pack (sorry Falcons / Sharks fans). I've been one of those who bagged him for his poor option taking in an England shirt over the years but, for the 2nd half of the season, his form for Tiggers appears pretty good and I see a greater maturity and awareness in his game. Love the fact that, when he pins his ears back, he's still got a huge amount of pace to get him out of the initial tackle.

As for Foden, that game was the one we've been waiting for.

Good to see from both.
This. Burrell was a big surprise for me, I didn't think he was that good, great basic skills. The scrummies were fantastic, thought Ben Youngs was excellent when it mattered, always delivers when it really counts. Dicksons form is good news for the tour. Lawes and Wood, Tom Youngs all played well. Hartley and Croft weren't that great, Tuilagi was ok, but, crucially showed what happens when he's in the team and you have other dangermen in the side.
I too thought Burrell played really well but Allen got Man of the Match. Allen was pretty deserving of it in fairness, a huge effort from him in defence, and took a lot of the heat off Ford in decision making when Tigers were attacking. Really a shame he isn't available for the tour this summer.

Cole had a strong scrummaging game I thought, had both Saints looseheads under immense pressure whilst he was on, can't think of a single scrum where Saints weren't on the back foot. Youngs was his usual self in the loose but had his first real shit throwing game. Ben Youngs had a pretty composed game and helped take a lot of heat off Ford. Tait keeps getting better, and one missed tackle on Foden aside, did no wrong. Foden was back to his best, which is even more bad news for Goode.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

JM2K6 wrote:In the papers yesterday he referred to Kvesic, Fraser, and Wallace as the queue behind Robshaw at 7.
So Johnson and Clark are now both blindsides? I was under the impression Johnson was being taken because Fraser was injured. That leaves us with just 1 openside in the squad.

I could see Wallace getting the call up then.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by geordie_6 »

openclashXX wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:In the papers yesterday he referred to Kvesic, Fraser, and Wallace as the queue behind Robshaw at 7.
So Johnson and Clark are now both blindsides? I was under the impression Johnson was being taken because Fraser was injured. That leaves us with just 1 openside in the squad.

I could see Wallace getting the call up then.
Unless Johnson is seen primarily as a blindside, but they want to try him at 7 for the sake of versatility? Wouldn't be worth it in my opinion, as I think we have better players at both 6 and 7, but still.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by fatcat »

Wendigo7 wrote:On route via coach to twickers now.
Latin good. French shit.

(spelling, not use of)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by maverickmak »

JM2K6 wrote:Still not happy with Tait under the high ball but he was again excellent aside from that, and Foden looked somewhere near his best.
As far as I can remember, Tait hasn't cocked one up for quite a while now (last glaring one I can remember was vs Toulon). He certainly isn't unreliable in that department any more. Seems to be bouncing off the challenges too.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

maverickmak wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Still not happy with Tait under the high ball but he was again excellent aside from that, and Foden looked somewhere near his best.
As far as I can remember, Tait hasn't cocked one up for quite a while now (last glaring one I can remember was vs Toulon). He certainly isn't unreliable in that department any more. Seems to be bouncing off the challenges too.
Tait will always be seen as being dodgy under the high ball when compared to a thoroughbred fullback like Brown, in the same way Youngs will always have wonky throwing compared to a proper hooker (and prat) like Hartley. Those guys have played in the position all their lives, so naturally are better at the basics. The decision is whether Tait, like Youngs, has extra qualities which offset his weaknesses.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

maverickmak wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Still not happy with Tait under the high ball but he was again excellent aside from that, and Foden looked somewhere near his best.
As far as I can remember, Tait hasn't cocked one up for quite a while now (last glaring one I can remember was vs Toulon). He certainly isn't unreliable in that department any more. Seems to be bouncing off the challenges too.
Under pressure he's likely shell one or lose possession when challenged. He did so again on his own 22 against Saints. Foden produced a stunning take under pressure. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I don't think he's cack-handed.

Agreed about the pinball stuff :)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by maverickmak »

Everyone loses one here and there under good pressure. Tigers stole more ball in the air than Saints managed. If the one you were referring to is the one I can vaguely remember, Tait has a lot of traffic to take that one clean. Even someone like Geordan Murphy would have struggled. You say you are still not happy with him under the high ball, but I would say that he hasn't been noticeably less reliable than any other English fullback.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

My current best XV: (not lancasters m.o. )

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Geoff Parling
5. Joe Launchbury
6. Chris Robshaw (c)
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Freddie Burns
11. Marlon Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Christian Wade
15. Ben Foden

Substitutes:
16. Mako Vunipola
17. Rob Webber
18. David Wilson
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Tom Wood
21. Danny Care
22. Owen Farrell
23. Jonny May

:smug: :thumbup:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

maverickmak wrote:Everyone loses one here and there under good pressure. Tigers stole more ball in the air than Saints managed. If the one you were referring to is the one I can vaguely remember, Tait has a lot of traffic to take that one clean. Even someone like Geordan Murphy would have struggled. You say you are still not happy with him under the high ball, but I would say that he hasn't been noticeably less reliable than any other English fullback.
I've yet to see him take one in traffic. 90% of the time he shells it. He is not commanding in the air or even particularly good. It's a problem for Alex Goode and it's a problem for Mat Tait. Foden and Brown are streets ahead in that department, as are most international 15s.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

Anyway, just watched the BaaBaas game. Very pleasing performance and attitude, tigerish in defence and keen to run the ball. Twelvetrees was fantastic, really hammering them in the tackle and making play revolve around him. Yarde was top notch, Launchbury back to the form that saw him get a starting shirt in the first place, front row very good. Basically everyone except maybe Billy V, Thomas (in the scrum - how's his injury?), JJ all did themselves justice.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by maverickmak »

I disagree, but ah well.

One fine performance and Foden is back to the top of the 15's pecking order Wendigo? And no place for Lion Croft?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

maverickmak wrote:I disagree, but ah well.

One fine performance and Foden is back to the top of the 15's pecking order Wendigo? And no place for Lion Croft?
Just personal preference. Nothing wrong with Brown, Tait, Daly or Croft. I went Robshaw as I wanted a workaholic next to Kvesic to help him out and do what a normal 6 does. Foden was chosen because at his best, he is the best FB in the side. Just my opinion though :)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

Who will Kvesic be up against in the next few tests? Because he seemed to have a rather easy time of it. He did very well, but I want to see what happens when there's another 7 fighting. Poff has been off form for a while now, and would have been a nice test if he'd been firing well, but really didn't do much from what I could tell.

The interview with Lancaster suggested to me that if Daly wasn't with the Baabaas when Tomkins was declared injured, he'd have been off to Arg now. Still, no doubt that he'll be in the squad soon enough. He'll be on that bench soon too.

In a way I really hope that Eastmond goes to 10 for Bath next season, but I guess with Ford on his way that's not likely. Still be nice if he gets some time there, since a bench of Daly and Eastmond covers 10-15 with very solid choices. Just place kicking that may be questionable, but apparently Eastmond can do the job.

I read something about across the tasman? Good place for downloading games right, but needs invitation, anyone got one going?

Croft strikes me almost as something more of a luxury player, though in a game like the Baabaas he'd have been fantastic. Against a team where you should be solid in the breakdown (with Kvesic, Launch and Cole we could have a great setup there), he can be devastating.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pandion »

Upfront I thought Webber was ok and Corbs showed why he's first choice. Wilson was excellent as he's been a lot for bath and was so underused in the 6ns adding to Coles dip in form. Not convinced about Kvesic, missed to many tackles against a poor barbarians. Johnson was everywhere as was Morgan but non of his trademark carrying. Attwood still looks to cumbersome and gasses after 30 so hopefully we'll see Slater step up if his injury hasn't trashed his form. Lawes was excellent again on Sat and is adding the extras to his game like better carrying/handling that most thought he couldn't. He and launch as cover at 6/lock is so important with all our 8s being specialist and needing the extra bench spot for cover.

I felt sorry for Tomkins and Daly as both will miss out and JJ other than a pass was anonymous. Burns 12t played really well but kicked a lot of ball away which being a baabaas game was disappointing and I really wanted to see the outside backs have chance to find their feet. Wade/Yarde had good games and Wade with Eastmond attacking together will scare defenses (when was the last time England could say that?). Burrell, Foden and May should add more options. Can Burrell move to 13? or even May? Not writing JJ off just need to see a bit of his potential show.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

Problem with playing Slater is that Launchbury is really showing himself to be undroppable. And we need someone to call the lineouts. To my knowledge neither Slater nor Lawes run their lineouts, Launchbury definitely doesn't.

Kvesic was working hard in the breakdown, but with little opposition, I'm less worried about the tackles if he's effectively stopping their attack ever really amounting to anything in the first place. If he can keep that up with another active 7 fighting him, then he'll be looking good.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by geordie_6 »

JM2K6 wrote:Anyway, just watched the BaaBaas game. Very pleasing performance and attitude, tigerish in defence and keen to run the ball. Twelvetrees was fantastic, really hammering them in the tackle and making play revolve around him. Yarde was top notch, Launchbury back to the form that saw him get a starting shirt in the first place, front row very good. Basically everyone except maybe Billy V, Thomas (in the scrum - how's his injury?), JJ all did themselves justice.
JJ didn't get too much chance to show what he could do as a running threat sadly, but he showed great hands for the Wade try.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Raggs wrote:Who will Kvesic be up against in the next few tests? Because he seemed to have a rather easy time of it. He did very well, but I want to see what happens when there's another 7 fighting. Poff has been off form for a while now, and would have been a nice test if he'd been firing well, but really didn't do much from what I could tell.
Likely to be the amateur player Tomas de la Vega. He's fairly highly rated as a young specialist openside, but he's likely to be of an even worse quality than Poff. It shouldn't be that much of a test as a one-on-one encounter.
The interview with Lancaster suggested to me that if Daly wasn't with the Baabaas when Tomkins was declared injured, he'd have been off to Arg now. Still, no doubt that he'll be in the squad soon enough. He'll be on that bench soon too.
I personally don't see him breaking into the national side for this World Cup cycle. This was really his last chance. He wouldn't be picked uncapped for an Autumn series or a Six Nations given our depth at fullback and outside centre, and definitely not for a three match tour of New Zealand. He'll be in the side for the next World Cup though, I'm sure.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by WitchKing »

Wendigo7 wrote:My current best XV: (not lancasters m.o. )

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Geoff Parling
5. Joe Launchbury
6. Chris Robshaw (c)
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Freddie Burns
11. Marlon Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Christian Wade
15. Ben Foden

Substitutes:
16. Mako Vunipola
17. Rob Webber
18. David Wilson
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Tom Wood
21. Danny Care
22. Owen Farrell
23. Jonny May

:smug: :thumbup:
I like that team, but I'd start wood.
The backs look a fair but more balanced and threatening than our 6n lot.
Bit worried about the pack though, hopefully it matures over next couple of years.....
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

openclashXX wrote:
Raggs wrote:Who will Kvesic be up against in the next few tests? Because he seemed to have a rather easy time of it. He did very well, but I want to see what happens when there's another 7 fighting. Poff has been off form for a while now, and would have been a nice test if he'd been firing well, but really didn't do much from what I could tell.
Likely to be the amateur player Tomas de la Vega. He's fairly highly rated as a young specialist openside, but he's likely to be of an even worse quality than Poff. It shouldn't be that much of a test as a one-on-one encounter.
The interview with Lancaster suggested to me that if Daly wasn't with the Baabaas when Tomkins was declared injured, he'd have been off to Arg now. Still, no doubt that he'll be in the squad soon enough. He'll be on that bench soon too.
I personally don't see him breaking into the national side for this World Cup cycle. This was really his last chance. He wouldn't be picked uncapped for an Autumn series or a Six Nations given our depth at fullback and outside centre, and definitely not for a three match tour of New Zealand. He'll be in the side for the next World Cup though, I'm sure.
Poff hasn't been playing very well recently, so it may be a youngster looking to make his mark will be more of a challenge.

As for Daly, you may be right, but there's still plenty of time for an injury to give him a shot and try and grab a spot like Launchbury managed.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pandion »

WitchKing wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:My current best XV: (not lancasters m.o. )

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Geoff Parling
5. Joe Launchbury
6. Chris Robshaw (c)
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Freddie Burns
11. Marlon Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Christian Wade
15. Ben Foden

Substitutes:
16. Mako Vunipola
17. Rob Webber
18. David Wilson
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Tom Wood
21. Danny Care
22. Owen Farrell
23. Jonny May

:smug: :thumbup:
I like that team, but I'd start wood.
The backs look a fair but more balanced and threatening than our 6n lot.
Bit worried about the pack though, hopefully it matures over next couple of years.....
I don't think we can carry on with Launch Parling pairing against most opposition especially when Morgan is unavailable. Bringing Slater and Attwood in as beef shows lancs is atleast looking at it.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

You need someone running the lineout though. This is where Attwood has the advantage over all the others, since he does run the bath lineout, none of the other options (except Parling) run theirs.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pandion »

Raggs wrote:You need someone running the lineout though. This is where Attwood has the advantage over all the others, since he does run the bath lineout, none of the other options (except Parling) run theirs.
Cant see Parling being dropped but if injured who runs the lineouts then?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

pandion wrote:
Raggs wrote:You need someone running the lineout though. This is where Attwood has the advantage over all the others, since he does run the bath lineout, none of the other options (except Parling) run theirs.
Cant see Parling being dropped but if injured who runs the lineouts then?
I don't know who takes over, but at the moment I have to assume it's not someone with a lot of experience, think someone said that one of our flankers can do it?

As to Parling not getting dropped, that's the thing, can you see Launch getting dropped? I can't, except for the lineout calls, I think Launch offers more than Parling.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

pandion wrote:
WitchKing wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:My current best XV: (not lancasters m.o. )

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Geoff Parling
5. Joe Launchbury
6. Chris Robshaw (c)
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Freddie Burns
11. Marlon Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Christian Wade
15. Ben Foden

Substitutes:
16. Mako Vunipola
17. Rob Webber
18. David Wilson
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Tom Wood
21. Danny Care
22. Owen Farrell
23. Jonny May

:smug: :thumbup:
I like that team, but I'd start wood.
The backs look a fair but more balanced and threatening than our 6n lot.
Bit worried about the pack though, hopefully it matures over next couple of years.....
I don't think we can carry on with Launch Parling pairing against most opposition especially when Morgan is unavailable. Bringing Slater and Attwood in as beef shows lancs is atleast looking at it.
I left Attwood or Slater out purely because we haven't seen them properly yet to get an opinion. I actually thought we looked alot more solid at the set piece with Attwood than Parling, especially more grunt in the scrum, but we'll need to see more of the 2 to make that decision. Luckily, Lancaster has looked at that :D as a way of improving the side.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pandion »

Raggs wrote:
pandion wrote:
Raggs wrote:You need someone running the lineout though. This is where Attwood has the advantage over all the others, since he does run the bath lineout, none of the other options (except Parling) run theirs.
Cant see Parling being dropped but if injured who runs the lineouts then?
I don't know who takes over, but at the moment I have to assume it's not someone with a lot of experience, think someone said that one of our flankers can do it?

As to Parling not getting dropped, that's the thing, can you see Launch getting dropped? I can't, except for the lineout calls, I think Launch offers more than Parling.
I don't think there is enough power with that combination. Launch to 6 is an option as is lawes for more biff and drive at scrum time. I'm sure Wood or Croft could run a lineout, its not something England should let hold them back.

Launch had another good season but dipped at the end off the 6ns and prem looking tired. He's still a young guy and needs looking after to avoid the injuries Corbs,Lawes etc have picked up. I think Parling has been very consistent for the last 2 seasons. Just my opinion but I think that's why he made the lions.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Double »

pandion wrote:
Raggs wrote:
pandion wrote:
Raggs wrote:You need someone running the lineout though. This is where Attwood has the advantage over all the others, since he does run the bath lineout, none of the other options (except Parling) run theirs.
Cant see Parling being dropped but if injured who runs the lineouts then?
I don't know who takes over, but at the moment I have to assume it's not someone with a lot of experience, think someone said that one of our flankers can do it?

As to Parling not getting dropped, that's the thing, can you see Launch getting dropped? I can't, except for the lineout calls, I think Launch offers more than Parling.
I don't think there is enough power with that combination. Launch to 6 is an option as is lawes for more biff and drive at scrum time. I'm sure Wood or Croft could run a lineout, its not something England should let hold them back.

Launch had another good season but dipped at the end off the 6ns and prem looking tired. He's still a young guy and needs looking after to avoid the injuries Corbs,Lawes etc have picked up. I think Parling has been very consistent for the last 2 seasons. Just my opinion but I think that's why he made the lions.
Moving flankers to 6 doesn't work, not to mention the fact that blindside is probably our strongest position. Lawes could be worth a look at 4 or 5, he's been playing better than he was before his injuries. That said, there's a lot more competition in the positions now.
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Petros
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Petros »

openclashXX wrote:
Raggs wrote:Who will Kvesic be up against in the next few tests? Because he seemed to have a rather easy time of it. He did very well, but I want to see what happens when there's another 7 fighting. Poff has been off form for a while now, and would have been a nice test if he'd been firing well, but really didn't do much from what I could tell.
Likely to be the amateur player Tomas de la Vega. He's fairly highly rated as a young specialist openside, but he's likely to be of an even worse quality than Poff. It shouldn't be that much of a test as a one-on-one encounter.
The interview with Lancaster suggested to me that if Daly wasn't with the Baabaas when Tomkins was declared injured, he'd have been off to Arg now. Still, no doubt that he'll be in the squad soon enough. He'll be on that bench soon too.
I personally don't see him breaking into the national side for this World Cup cycle. This was really his last chance. He wouldn't be picked uncapped for an Autumn series or a Six Nations given our depth at fullback and outside centre, and definitely not for a three match tour of New Zealand. He'll be in the side for the next World Cup though, I'm sure.

After all Daly is only 20 and the youngest player on the pitch yesterday
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pandion »

Wendigo7 wrote:
pandion wrote:
WitchKing wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:My current best XV: (not lancasters m.o. )

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Geoff Parling
5. Joe Launchbury
6. Chris Robshaw (c)
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Freddie Burns
11. Marlon Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Christian Wade
15. Ben Foden

Substitutes:
16. Mako Vunipola
17. Rob Webber
18. David Wilson
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Tom Wood
21. Danny Care
22. Owen Farrell
23. Jonny May

:smug: :thumbup:
I like that team, but I'd start wood.
The backs look a fair but more balanced and threatening than our 6n lot.
Bit worried about the pack though, hopefully it matures over next couple of years.....
I don't think we can carry on with Launch Parling pairing against most opposition especially when Morgan is unavailable. Bringing Slater and Attwood in as beef shows lancs is atleast looking at it.
I left Attwood or Slater out purely because we haven't seen them properly yet to get an opinion. I actually thought we looked alot more solid at the set piece with Attwood than Parling, especially more grunt in the scrum, but we'll need to see more of the 2 to make that decision. Luckily, Lancaster has looked at that :D as a way of improving the side.
Liked the look of Attwood a few seasons ago under Jonno but he just seems unfit or perhaps struggling with his conditioning to last even 40. He was walking and blowing hard before half time in a pretty low tempo game.

To be clear I have no problem with tight 5s expecting to play 50-60 mins most games if they are effective.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pandion »

Double wrote:
pandion wrote:
Raggs wrote:
pandion wrote:
Raggs wrote:You need someone running the lineout though. This is where Attwood has the advantage over all the others, since he does run the bath lineout, none of the other options (except Parling) run theirs.
Cant see Parling being dropped but if injured who runs the lineouts then?
I don't know who takes over, but at the moment I have to assume it's not someone with a lot of experience, think someone said that one of our flankers can do it?

As to Parling not getting dropped, that's the thing, can you see Launch getting dropped? I can't, except for the lineout calls, I think Launch offers more than Parling.
I don't think there is enough power with that combination. Launch to 6 is an option as is lawes for more biff and drive at scrum time. I'm sure Wood or Croft could run a lineout, its not something England should let hold them back.

Launch had another good season but dipped at the end off the 6ns and prem looking tired. He's still a young guy and needs looking after to avoid the injuries Corbs,Lawes etc have picked up. I think Parling has been very consistent for the last 2 seasons. Just my opinion but I think that's why he made the lions.
Moving flankers to 6 doesn't work, not to mention the fact that blindside is probably our strongest position. Lawes could be worth a look at 4 or 5, he's been playing better than he was before his injuries. That said, there's a lot more competition in the positions now.
6 is very competitive but that is where launchbury made his impact initially for wasps.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Petros wrote:
openclashXX wrote: I personally don't see him breaking into the national side for this World Cup cycle. This was really his last chance. He wouldn't be picked uncapped for an Autumn series or a Six Nations given our depth at fullback and outside centre, and definitely not for a three match tour of New Zealand. He'll be in the side for the next World Cup though, I'm sure.

After all Daly is only 20 and the youngest player on the pitch yesterday
He's easily got at least another 8/9 years of rugby in him. He still hasn't finished properly developing physically. He should find a position and make it his own at Wasps too.

I was actually a little gutted to see Alex Goode miss out on this tour because Lancaster was set to try him out at 10, where I think he still is best suited. He grew up as a fly-half, played there at age-grade level and was very promising there for Sarries before he was converted to a fullback. He's a competent club-level fullback but definitely not at a higher level.
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nicebutdim
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by nicebutdim »

openclashXX wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
bealonian wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:On the positive, two excellent fullback displays yesterday :)

Alex goode must be looking over his shoulder now.
Tait, while not the messiah he was made out to be when first on the scene, is showing now what he can do when partnered with a decent pack (sorry Falcons / Sharks fans). I've been one of those who bagged him for his poor option taking in an England shirt over the years but, for the 2nd half of the season, his form for Tiggers appears pretty good and I see a greater maturity and awareness in his game. Love the fact that, when he pins his ears back, he's still got a huge amount of pace to get him out of the initial tackle.

As for Foden, that game was the one we've been waiting for.

Good to see from both.
This. Burrell was a big surprise for me, I didn't think he was that good, great basic skills. The scrummies were fantastic, thought Ben Youngs was excellent when it mattered, always delivers when it really counts. Dicksons form is good news for the tour. Lawes and Wood, Tom Youngs all played well. Hartley and Croft weren't that great, Tuilagi was ok, but, crucially showed what happens when he's in the team and you have other dangermen in the side.
I too thought Burrell played really well but Allen got Man of the Match. Allen was pretty deserving of it in fairness, a huge effort from him in defence, and took a lot of the heat off Ford in decision making when Tigers were attacking. Really a shame he isn't available for the tour this summer.

Cole had a strong scrummaging game I thought, had both Saints looseheads under immense pressure whilst he was on, can't think of a single scrum where Saints weren't on the back foot. Youngs was his usual self in the loose but had his first real shit throwing game. Ben Youngs had a pretty composed game and helped take a lot of heat off Ford. Tait keeps getting better, and one missed tackle on Foden aside, did no wrong. Foden was back to his best, which is even more bad news for Goode.
Is Allen not available or not selected?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Double »

nicebutdim wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
bealonian wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:On the positive, two excellent fullback displays yesterday :)

Alex goode must be looking over his shoulder now.
Tait, while not the messiah he was made out to be when first on the scene, is showing now what he can do when partnered with a decent pack (sorry Falcons / Sharks fans). I've been one of those who bagged him for his poor option taking in an England shirt over the years but, for the 2nd half of the season, his form for Tiggers appears pretty good and I see a greater maturity and awareness in his game. Love the fact that, when he pins his ears back, he's still got a huge amount of pace to get him out of the initial tackle.

As for Foden, that game was the one we've been waiting for.

Good to see from both.
This. Burrell was a big surprise for me, I didn't think he was that good, great basic skills. The scrummies were fantastic, thought Ben Youngs was excellent when it mattered, always delivers when it really counts. Dicksons form is good news for the tour. Lawes and Wood, Tom Youngs all played well. Hartley and Croft weren't that great, Tuilagi was ok, but, crucially showed what happens when he's in the team and you have other dangermen in the side.
I too thought Burrell played really well but Allen got Man of the Match. Allen was pretty deserving of it in fairness, a huge effort from him in defence, and took a lot of the heat off Ford in decision making when Tigers were attacking. Really a shame he isn't available for the tour this summer.

Cole had a strong scrummaging game I thought, had both Saints looseheads under immense pressure whilst he was on, can't think of a single scrum where Saints weren't on the back foot. Youngs was his usual self in the loose but had his first real shit throwing game. Ben Youngs had a pretty composed game and helped take a lot of heat off Ford. Tait keeps getting better, and one missed tackle on Foden aside, did no wrong. Foden was back to his best, which is even more bad news for Goode.
Is Allen not available or not selected?
He has a scheduled operation I think.
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nicebutdim
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by nicebutdim »

Double wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
bealonian wrote: Tait, while not the messiah he was made out to be when first on the scene, is showing now what he can do when partnered with a decent pack (sorry Falcons / Sharks fans). I've been one of those who bagged him for his poor option taking in an England shirt over the years but, for the 2nd half of the season, his form for Tiggers appears pretty good and I see a greater maturity and awareness in his game. Love the fact that, when he pins his ears back, he's still got a huge amount of pace to get him out of the initial tackle.

As for Foden, that game was the one we've been waiting for.

Good to see from both.
This. Burrell was a big surprise for me, I didn't think he was that good, great basic skills. The scrummies were fantastic, thought Ben Youngs was excellent when it mattered, always delivers when it really counts. Dicksons form is good news for the tour. Lawes and Wood, Tom Youngs all played well. Hartley and Croft weren't that great, Tuilagi was ok, but, crucially showed what happens when he's in the team and you have other dangermen in the side.
I too thought Burrell played really well but Allen got Man of the Match. Allen was pretty deserving of it in fairness, a huge effort from him in defence, and took a lot of the heat off Ford in decision making when Tigers were attacking. Really a shame he isn't available for the tour this summer.

Cole had a strong scrummaging game I thought, had both Saints looseheads under immense pressure whilst he was on, can't think of a single scrum where Saints weren't on the back foot. Youngs was his usual self in the loose but had his first real shit throwing game. Ben Youngs had a pretty composed game and helped take a lot of heat off Ford. Tait keeps getting better, and one missed tackle on Foden aside, did no wrong. Foden was back to his best, which is even more bad news for Goode.
Is Allen not available or not selected?
He has a scheduled operation I think.
Shame because he looked bloody good at the weekend and I think deserves another shot at the England set up. Him, Eastmond and 12trees are the only 12's I would consider for the time being. Barritt has shown both he and England perform better when he plays 13.

Interesting that Slater is taken over Kitchener. Does anyone have an opinion about this....... is Kitchener just another line out guy and Lancaster wants grunt?
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pjm1
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pjm1 »

pandion wrote:Upfront I thought Webber was ok and Corbs showed why he's first choice. Wilson was excellent as he's been a lot for bath and was so underused in the 6ns adding to Coles dip in form. Not convinced about Kvesic, missed to many tackles against a poor barbarians. Johnson was everywhere as was Morgan but non of his trademark carrying. Attwood still looks to cumbersome and gasses after 30 so hopefully we'll see Slater step up if his injury hasn't trashed his form. Lawes was excellent again on Sat and is adding the extras to his game like better carrying/handling that most thought he couldn't. He and launch as cover at 6/lock is so important with all our 8s being specialist and needing the extra bench spot for cover.

I felt sorry for Tomkins and Daly as both will miss out and JJ other than a pass was anonymous. Burns 12t played really well but kicked a lot of ball away which being a baabaas game was disappointing and I really wanted to see the outside backs have chance to find their feet. Wade/Yarde had good games and Wade with Eastmond attacking together will scare defenses (when was the last time England could say that?). Burrell, Foden and May should add more options. Can Burrell move to 13? or even May? Not writing JJ off just need to see a bit of his potential show.
I think you've answered your own question... How many of those missed tackles were cover tackles or the 7 bridging a gap too wide because one of the other back rowers or locks is positioned to do "the fancy stuff"?

Kvesic is a classic 7 but he shouldn't be the primary tackler if you want him to be jackalling or acting as a link man. A bit like someone such as Salvi.

Robshaw is the opposite - and can work well with another 6.5 especially with good communication as to who will be first in and who goes for the ball.

Finally, can we please dispense with playing locks at 6. Lawes highlighted why it can be a very bad idea and while it's ok as a stopgap or injury solution, we have enough depth at lock and flanker not to need to shoe horn people in our of position.

We need a lock to call line out and a back rower who can replace the caller in the case of injury or sub. That means Parling could be swapped with Attwood but Launch could be swapped with any lock. Obviously with Parling on Lions duty, we have an opportunity to bring other callers in and also get Wood comfortable with a role of backup caller.
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