**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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openclashXX
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

openclashXX wrote:Kvesic awarded official MOTM in Glos' win over Falcons
And Jamie George named MOTM in Sarries' win over Sale
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hawk97 »

openclashXX wrote:
openclashXX wrote:Kvesic awarded official MOTM in Glos' win over Falcons
And Jamie George named MOTM in Sarries' win over Sale

...Surprised? Lanc should be. Considering he doesn't rate them enough to give them a go.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by croyals »

Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by armchairfan »

croyals wrote:Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?
Because the England coaching team are devoid of intelligence ( sorry had a few )
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by armchairfan »

croyals wrote:Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?
I was really impressed with Streather, Tompkins, Ellery and Fraser ( hope he stays fit )
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by RodneyRegis »

croyals wrote:Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?

I suggested he should have been starting on numerous occasions. I was laughed out of town, too big an occasion. Against Fiji FFS. But hey, Youngs is good in the loose, so...

So much revisionism on this thread.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by RodneyRegis »

openclashXX wrote:
openclashXX wrote:Kvesic awarded official MOTM in Glos' win over Falcons
And Jamie George named MOTM in Sarries' win over Sale
And George Ford.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by croyals »

armchairfan wrote:
croyals wrote:Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?
I was really impressed with Streather, Tompkins, Ellery and Fraser ( hope he stays fit )
Sarries were impressive but it has to be said I don't think Sale looked like competing at any point so I wont read too much into it. Really rated Maro captaining the side, is McCall making a statement for the new England coach?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by SELondon »

RodneyRegis wrote:
croyals wrote:Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?

I suggested he should have been starting on numerous occasions. I was laughed out of town, too big an occasion. Against Fiji FFS. But hey, Youngs is good in the loose, so...

So much revisionism on this thread.
I wanted Youngs starting, cos I is a conservative cad, but I was pretty annoyed when George wasn't on the bench and I'm pretty annoyed that's it taken him so long to get here. Partly that's Sarries bringing him through gradually, but partly that was Lancaster. It was obvious when he took up the job that George was big, performed hooker skills well, and could play a bit - he always looked like he'd be involved at some point. Has he even picked up any Saxons caps?

I hope he starts in the 6N and would be livid if he wasn't involved at all.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

I stopped watching nz vs france not long after half time, didn't see the point, but I bet Mike Catt was grinning a little in seeing attacking rugby from the start in a knockout round. Could we have done that? Hell no. But I'd bet we'd have picked up another win and perhaps some more points if we'd tried.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

SELondon wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
croyals wrote:Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?

I suggested he should have been starting on numerous occasions. I was laughed out of town, too big an occasion. Against Fiji FFS. But hey, Youngs is good in the loose, so...

So much revisionism on this thread.
I wanted Youngs starting, cos I is a conservative cad, but I was pretty annoyed when George wasn't on the bench and I'm pretty annoyed that's it taken him so long to get here. Partly that's Sarries bringing him through gradually, but partly that was Lancaster. It was obvious when he took up the job that George was big, performed hooker skills well, and could play a bit - he always looked like he'd be involved at some point. Has he even picked up any Saxons caps?

I hope he starts in the 6N and would be livid if he wasn't involved at all.
Youngs was right to start- where England shit the bed was having webber ahead of george. That was insane.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Raggs wrote:I stopped watching nz vs france not long after half time, didn't see the point, but I bet Mike Catt was grinning a little in seeing attacking rugby from the start in a knockout round. Could we have done that? Hell no. But I'd bet we'd have picked up another win and perhaps some more points if we'd tried.
Nah, France needed Barritt at 12 :thumbup:

Basteuraud played well tbf when he came for a lump, reads the game nice in defence but NZ absolutely crushed them in every area.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Plastic Sarrie »

croyals wrote:
armchairfan wrote:
croyals wrote:Was at AP earlier today. Granted Sale were very poor but Jamie George looks excellent, does the hooking basics excellently, scrummages, good with ball in hand and can defend. Remind me again why he wasn't starting at the World Cup?
I was really impressed with Streather, Tompkins, Ellery and Fraser ( hope he stays fit )
Sarries were impressive but it has to be said I don't think Sale looked like competing at any point so I wont read too much into it. Really rated Maro captaining the side, is McCall making a statement for the new England coach?
Itoje spent last season captaining the Storm & LV Cup teams. With Barritt and Hargreaves both missing, he's the natural choice, given they clearly see him as the next long term Sarries captain.
You mean spencer lol
Realised that about an hour later when I saw my missus, mentioned it & she expressed surprised that Wiggy was playing :blush:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Where does the future Itoje play? Big 6 or small 4?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Grouchmonkey »

DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:I stopped watching nz vs france not long after half time, didn't see the point, but I bet Mike Catt was grinning a little in seeing attacking rugby from the start in a knockout round. Could we have done that? Hell no. But I'd bet we'd have picked up another win and perhaps some more points if we'd tried.
Nah, France needed Barritt at 12 :thumbup:

Basteuraud played well tbf when he came for a lump, reads the game nice in defence but NZ absolutely crushed them in every area.
NZ-Fra showed what a long way off the pace England are, though. See what their scrum did to a French pack that had the edge over us in the two warm-up games? The line out steals and turnovers at the breakdown? We have a lot of hard yakka to get through if England want to get anywhere near that level. I also did not see any NZ players whose gut wobbles when they run, despite all that "brutal" training at altitude. They just looked very fit and very sharp.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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Grouchmonkey wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:I stopped watching nz vs france not long after half time, didn't see the point, but I bet Mike Catt was grinning a little in seeing attacking rugby from the start in a knockout round. Could we have done that? Hell no. But I'd bet we'd have picked up another win and perhaps some more points if we'd tried.
Nah, France needed Barritt at 12 :thumbup:

Basteuraud played well tbf when he came for a lump, reads the game nice in defence but NZ absolutely crushed them in every area.
NZ-Fra showed what a long way off the pace England are, though. See what their scrum did to a French pack that had the edge over us in the two warm-up games? The line out steals and turnovers at the breakdown? We have a lot of hard yakka to get through if England want to get anywhere near that level. I also did not see any NZ players whose gut wobbles when they run, despite all that "brutal" training at altitude. They just looked very fit and very sharp.
Yep. Absolutely.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Grouchmonkey »

DragsterDriver wrote:Where does the future Itoje play? Big 6 or small 4?
Farrell has him pencilled in as a 12

Seriously, though. it has to be as a flanker, doesn't it? People are saying we need more grunt than Lawes can give us in the second row (though not sure I agree with that) and it is the back row where England need an injection of new blood.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by forrester »

RodneyRegis wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
openclashXX wrote:Kvesic awarded official MOTM in Glos' win over Falcons
And Jamie George named MOTM in Sarries' win over Sale
And George Ford.
From what I saw of the Bath game, which admittedly wasn't a lot, the best player on the pitch was Slade. The guy just looks a class act.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Grouchmonkey wrote: NZ-Fra showed what a long way off the pace England are, though. See what their scrum did to a French pack that had the edge over us in the two warm-up games? The line out steals and turnovers at the breakdown? We have a lot of hard yakka to get through if England want to get anywhere near that level. I also did not see any NZ players whose gut wobbles when they run, despite all that "brutal" training at altitude. They just looked very fit and very sharp.
We could manage a few more steals if allowed to close the gap like that. Got to hand it to NZ, they identify the maul as a concern so close to gap to less than 2cm never mind 2m.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pandion »

DragsterDriver wrote:Where does the future Itoje play? Big 6 or small 4?
Have to see how he develops and if he has the pace for 6. We have a lot of good locks/ big 6s atm.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by The Man Without Fear »

From looking at every other team in the World Cup, it's clear that whatever that conditioning was, we got it completely wrong and turned up weak as Budweiser. The coaching team were going on about an 80 minute non stop team, but forgot that whilst teams that pull away at the end tend to be fit, they spend the first hour battering their opponents up front so they have nothing left to give.

The thing about the All Blacks is not the flashy stuff, it's simple stuff executed to a very high standard. Midfielder? Draw your marker, put the man outside you into the space at the right time. It's not hard, it's a skill any centre should have, it's just well executed.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

The Man Without Fear wrote:From looking at every other team in the World Cup, it's clear that whatever that conditioning was, we got it completely wrong and turned up weak as Budweiser. The coaching team were going on about an 80 minute non stop team, but forgot that whilst teams that pull away at the end tend to be fit, they spend the first hour battering their opponents up front so they have nothing left to give.

The thing about the All Blacks is not the flashy stuff, it's simple stuff executed to a very high standard. Midfielder? Draw your marker, put the man outside you into the space at the right time. It's not hard, it's a skill any centre should have, it's just well executed.
They score some simple try's eh? Soften you up then straight hands drawing the man and passing accurately. So simple yet so effective...I still maintain we have enough talent in this country but it's just being coached by morons.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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I don't like this idea that we should try and be like New Zealand, that's what Lancaster was trying to do for the past four years and it failed miserably

we don't really have "natural ball-players" from 1-15 like NZ do, you won't be seeing Joe Marler or Dan Cole popping up in the centres to provide an assist for Courtney Lawes to run in a try on the wing
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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openclashXX wrote:I don't like this idea that we should try and be like New Zealand, that's what Lancaster was trying to do for the past four years and it failed miserably

we don't really have "natural ball-players" from 1-15 like NZ do, you won't be seeing Joe Marler or Dan Cole popping up in the centres to provide an assist for Courtney Lawes to run in a try on the wing
You think picking robshaw, wood and Vunipola is trying to play like NZ? :lol:

But yes I do agree, no sane coach would try running the kiwis around the pitch.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

openclashXX wrote:I don't like this idea that we should try and be like New Zealand, that's what Lancaster was trying to do for the past four years and it failed miserably

we don't really have "natural ball-players" from 1-15 like NZ do, you won't be seeing Joe Marler or Dan Cole popping up in the centres to provide an assist for Courtney Lawes to run in a try on the wing
In part that is true. It clearly is hard to keep it simple with the ball moved at pace into space with the ball being supported, and then the team attack shape constantly fed so the 9 and 10 have options. And looking at some of the passes the NZ forwards gave yesterday we'd not frown if our backs did that, and not just Read but Retallick as well. But we did somewhat louse selection, and perhaps looked too much at our losses to NZ, SA, Wales and Ireland, and didn't look at what we wanted to do.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

openclashXX wrote:I don't like this idea that we should try and be like New Zealand, that's what Lancaster was trying to do for the past four years and it failed miserably

we don't really have "natural ball-players" from 1-15 like NZ do, you won't be seeing Joe Marler or Dan Cole popping up in the centres to provide an assist for Courtney Lawes to run in a try on the wing
Marler might, Mako could too, Lawes did all right in the wide channels during the 6N if I recall correctly, and Launchbury has produced some lovely offloads (some half decent passes too). There's a few other tight forwards that can do it as well (Henry Thomas has some good handling moments).

We do have players that could play that game, probably not as well, since they haven't practiced it, and it's sure as hell not what we were trying to do often (else why were Barritt and Farrell involved...).
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

World Cup winning coach Graham Henry believes England have paid the price for trying to copy New Zealand’s style of play... without being good enough.

The man who led his side to victory in 2011 said England’s hammering by Australia demonstrated they don’t have the skills to compete at the highest level.

“It could have been embarrassing,” Henry told New Zealand radio station Newstalk ZB. “The English gave it 100 per cent, they just simply weren’t good enough.

“I think they’ve been playing the wrong game for too many years. They are trying to emulate the way New Zealand play and I don’t think they have the skill level to do that because they simply don’t come from that sort of environment.

“They’ve changed their game in recent years and it hasn’t been successful.


“Stuart Lancaster will get some stick in the press. He’s tried hard Stuart, no doubt about that. He has good standards in his team, good culture, but they’re not good enough at this level.

“The big thing about the Australians is they have some stability up front and the most embarrassing thing for the English was the way the Australians dominated the scrum. And they got better as the game went on.

“That has been their achilles heel in the past and that’s why England have beaten them in the past - they couldn’t scrum.”
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

Lancaster spoke about playing that game, but Farrell and Barritt (especially at 13), and not a true fetcher, suggest that at no point did he commit to it.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

He's just trolling.

Playing robshaw, wood, Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt- we were trying to emulate Canada more like. Lancaster and co didn't have a clue what they were trying to do.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Raggs wrote:Lancaster spoke about playing that game, but Farrell and Barritt (especially at 13), and not a true fetcher, suggest that at no point did he commit to it.
I think he kept trying to achieve it in the Six Nations, but when it came to the RWC I agree he properly shit the bed selection-wise
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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DragsterDriver wrote:He's just trolling.

Playing robshaw, wood, Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt- we were trying to emulate Canada more like. Lancaster and co didn't have a clue what they were trying to do.
It's not just selection it's style of play. In the Six Nations it's obvious he was trying to build an all-court NZ style of play, despite not having the right people to actually accomplish it half the time
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

openclashXX wrote:
Raggs wrote:Lancaster spoke about playing that game, but Farrell and Barritt (especially at 13), and not a true fetcher, suggest that at no point did he commit to it.
I think he kept trying to achieve it in the Six Nations, but when it came to the RWC I agree he properly shit the bed selection-wise
And we scored a record number of tries in the 6 nations, and had our pack actually had the breakdown game to support the backs, we'd have done even better. It was the breakdown that let us down (both attack and defence), rather than handling skills. And perhaps we don't have the skills to compete on that level, but I think we're OK elsewhere.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

openclashXX wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:He's just trolling.

Playing robshaw, wood, Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt- we were trying to emulate Canada more like. Lancaster and co didn't have a clue what they were trying to do.
It's not just selection it's style of play. In the Six Nations it's obvious he was trying to build an all-court NZ style of play, despite not having the right people to actually accomplish it half the time
Yep.

Kind of a mockery the whole selection thing now. How can we keep getting the selections wrong?

We definitely would have lost to NZ last night, but I wouldn't mind if the selections were positive and at least made sense. Ours haven't for the last 12 years :(( .
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Raggs wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Raggs wrote:Lancaster spoke about playing that game, but Farrell and Barritt (especially at 13), and not a true fetcher, suggest that at no point did he commit to it.
I think he kept trying to achieve it in the Six Nations, but when it came to the RWC I agree he properly shit the bed selection-wise
And we scored a record number of tries in the 6 nations, and had our pack actually had the breakdown game to support the backs, we'd have done even better. It was the breakdown that let us down (both attack and defence), rather than handling skills. And perhaps we don't have the skills to compete on that level, but I think we're OK elsewhere.
Agree. The selection of the pack (slow, one-dimensional, lacking any real out-and-out pace or dynamism at the breakdown) seems completely at odds with selecting the likes of Ford, Joseph, Watson, May etc

Ironically I'd say the closest we came to selecting a pack to match our backline was in 2012 when we had Croft at 6
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote:He's just trolling.

Playing robshaw, wood, Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt- we were trying to emulate Canada more like. Lancaster and co didn't have a clue what they were trying to do.
That's harsh on the Canucks, I really enjoyed watching Canada this WC
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Raggs wrote: And we scored a record number of tries in the 6 nations, and had our pack actually had the breakdown game to support the backs, we'd have done even better. It was the breakdown that let us down (both attack and defence), rather than handling skills. And perhaps we don't have the skills to compete on that level, but I think we're OK elsewhere.
We never managed to align supporting our breakdown in attack, keeping a good shape and options in attack, and not blowing up after 50 minutes with nothing left in the tank. I do think they got a bit freaked out on the NZ tour especially about having nothing left in the tank, and perhaps didn't allow enough it was the end of a long season and our players were just tired, and that thinking was too much to the fore in the training camps.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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“The big thing about the Australians is they have some stability up front and the most embarrassing thing for the English was the way the Australians dominated the scrum. And they got better as the game went on

Interesting , this. With say ,Wrigglesworth, bored consensus is why the f*ck have the coaches picked the 7th or 8th best halfback in the AP ?
However, with the props , there wasn't too much controversy that they'd gone for the wrong players, once Corbs looked under powered. So, are we a nation of weaklings, or is there a coaching issue ?
Second row , a lot of posters wanted Attwood, who is presumed to be the most powerful lock, in the squad. Selectors picked Kruis, allegedly for his super fitness. Now thinking back to the not the Heineken Cup, Kruis looked pretty ordinary against big French packs. Is it another coaches simply selecting the wrong player issue ?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

piquant wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:He's just trolling.

Playing robshaw, wood, Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt- we were trying to emulate Canada more like. Lancaster and co didn't have a clue what they were trying to do.
That's harsh on the Canucks, I really enjoyed watching Canada this WC
True :blush:

Seems we're all agreed you can't support any kind of running game with a pathetic back row. So much muddled thinking, wtf were the clowns trying to achieve? The left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Backwoodsman1 wrote:Now thinking back to the not the Heineken Cup, Kruis looked pretty ordinary against big French packs.
That's simply not true. Sarries' pack rarely came off second-best last season and Kruis was at the heart of that. Even in the semi-final defeat vs Clermont, Kruis (along with Itoje, George, Billy V and Mako) was excellent and all the headlines were saying how positive it was for English rugby to have such good young English forwards already making their mark in Europe

the side that regularly got manshamed vs big French packs was in fact Saints, not Sarries.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Backwoodsman1 »

DragsterDriver wrote:
piquant wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:He's just trolling.

Playing robshaw, wood, Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt- we were trying to emulate Canada more like. Lancaster and co didn't have a clue what they were trying to do.
That's harsh on the Canucks, I really enjoyed watching Canada this WC
True :blush:

Seems we're all agreed you can't support any kind of running game with a pathetic back row. So much muddled thinking, wtf were the clowns trying to achieve? The left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.
It goes back to the hoary old chesnut , 'defences win world cups'. Lancaster obviously believed this, which was why Farrell had him in thrall. Loig basically consists of 13 blokes, more or less all the same size , tackling each other head on and not being allowed to ferret around for the ball when the tackle is complete.
That leaves an awful lot of the game of Union, which an ex-league player knows sweet f a about.
Throw in the fact that, I believe, Lancaster played at 6 himself, ( ie too small for the row,not fast eough to be a 7, lacking the smarts and ball handling skills to be an 8,) and you have the recepie for a clusterf*ck.
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