**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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fatcat
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by fatcat »

Players like Itoje are the exception rather than the rule in terms of Sarries academy players.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JJR »

fatcat wrote:Players like Itoje are the exception rather than the rule in terms of Sarries academy players.

Farrell is up there. Jamie George isn't too shabby either. Or Kruis. And of course Alex Goode is the reigning player of the year.
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fatcat
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by fatcat »

And how old are those players?
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Plastic Sarrie
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Plastic Sarrie »

Fazlet is 24 iirc, Kruis and Wray 26/27. George 25.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Dunnikin Diver »

Gospel wrote:
Petros wrote:Indeed, but it was only when I looked at the ESPN stats as to how many times Itoje had been pinged. That sort of figure has us all moaning about the likes of the Hask or Wood for England
Itoje has been quite heavily pinged in an England shirt too if memory serves. He's certainly not afraid to chance his arm at times, however he makes so many positive interventions it's easy to forgive is over exuberance.
Lives in the same rarefied air as the likes of Back and Dayglo
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fatcat
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by fatcat »

Plastic Sarrie wrote:Fazlet is 24 iirc, Kruis and Wray 26/27. George 25.
Yep, Faz is in the same category as Itoje - first choice (more or less for Faz when Sir Charles was around) and capped when still very young. The others have had a much longer road to success.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by pjm1 »

I don't know why a website called "You are not so smart" might be relevant to posters on this bored, but let's give it a go...

OC - here is something which might help explain your slightly creepy obsessions with Kev and "Doormat". It even goes some way to explain your persistence in continuing to use one of the most tedious player nicknames ever coined:

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10 ... re-effect/
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Backwoodsman1 »

Scrumhead wrote:I'm inclined to agree ... we'll probably never find out now. Williams could have been great, but I suspect it could have been a Harrison v2.0 had he played at 7.

Hopefully by the time he's fit, we can consider him as a good option at 6 rather than the odd notion of putting him at 7.

Could Will Welch be a dark horse to get in the mix with England? He's never mentioned, but is a former age grade international and captain of his club. He's always looked decent in a team under the cosh and now he's a part of a Newcastle back row that's rarely been outfought so far this season.
Good 7 , Welch, always enjoy watching him play.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

Backwoodsman1 wrote:
Scrumhead wrote:I'm inclined to agree ... we'll probably never find out now. Williams could have been great, but I suspect it could have been a Harrison v2.0 had he played at 7.

Hopefully by the time he's fit, we can consider him as a good option at 6 rather than the odd notion of putting him at 7.

Could Will Welch be a dark horse to get in the mix with England? He's never mentioned, but is a former age grade international and captain of his club. He's always looked decent in a team under the cosh and now he's a part of a Newcastle back row that's rarely been outfought so far this season.
Good 7 , Welch, always enjoy watching him play.
That's why I find it curious he never even features in any conversations about English 7s. Perhaps it's something to do with playing for a less fashionable club?

Under normal circumstances, he's not someone I'd see challenging to make the EPS, but with the current injury situation, I'm surprised he's not been on the radar at all.

I'd argue he fits Eddie's brief as a big, destructive flanker and he has the advantage of actually playing 7, week-in, week-out, rather than being a 6 or lock masquerading as a 7.

Incidentally, I saw Kirwan from Worcester was pressing his case in last week's TRP ... Reaching a bit I thought :roll:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Chuckles1188 »

I have a lot of time for the Falcons backrow. Wilson is impressive as well
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

If he was ambitious he'd move to a 'bigger' club, sounds harsh but it's that simple really. Are 'bigger' clubs trying to sign him?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

DragsterDriver wrote:If he was ambitious he'd move to a 'bigger' club, sounds harsh but it's that simple really. Are 'bigger' clubs trying to sign him?
I don't know? Ask his agent.

He's the captain and a guaranteed starter at Falcons. He might feel as though that gives him a better platform to shine than going to another club where he'd have to re-establish himself.

Also, where would he go? The top 6 sides are all pretty well stocked with flankers. It wouldn't do him any favours sitting on the bench.
Chuckles1188 wrote:I have a lot of time for the Falcons backrow. Wilson is impressive as well
I also agree on Wilson. Regularly tops tackle stats and is a very solid AP 6/8.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by kagamusha »

JJR wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Most of their academy graduates seem to come from outside of North London.
Yep,

Kruis
Fraser
George
Farrell
Goode

etc etc etc. All not from North London. But then there is Itoje
Wray Essex
Tompkins Kent
Earle Kent

If anything the fact that the most densely populated catchment area (N.London) yields just one academy player (Itoje) backs up what I said about football hoovering up the best young athletes.

Worth repeating again that Saracens also have a great track record of converting average pros into first team regulars.
I don't see this competition for young people from soccer...looking at the current England soccer team, how many of the players would be in a top rugby team even if they had been recruited at an early age.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by armchairfan »

I think Ben Spencer is Sarries academy too (and he's shaping up nicely).
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by le chat »

kagamusha wrote:
JJR wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Most of their academy graduates seem to come from outside of North London.
Yep,

Kruis
Fraser
George
Farrell
Goode

etc etc etc. All not from North London. But then there is Itoje
Wray Essex
Tompkins Kent
Earle Kent

If anything the fact that the most densely populated catchment area (N.London) yields just one academy player (Itoje) backs up what I said about football hoovering up the best young athletes.

Worth repeating again that Saracens also have a great track record of converting average pros into first team regulars.
I don't see this competition for young people from soccer...looking at the current England soccer team, how many of the players would be in a top rugby team even if they had been recruited at an early age.
Not just the national football side, there will be loads of players in the football league would have had the potential to be top rugby players. No doubt football takes all the best athletes. When a kid is good at football, he doesn't tend to give it up. This is one of the reasons most of our players are from public schools, because rugby is the number 1 sport there.
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Plastic Sarrie
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Plastic Sarrie »

armchairfan wrote:I think Ben Spencer is Sarries academy too (and he's shaping up nicely).
Came from Cambridge, iirc.
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fatcat
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by fatcat »

armchairfan wrote:I think Ben Spencer is Sarries academy too (and he's shaping up nicely).
60 appearances in 5 years, and many from the bench. Another slow burner.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

JM2K6 wrote:Not just the national football side, there will be loads of players in the football league would have had the potential to be top rugby players. No doubt football takes all the best athletes. When a kid is good at football, he doesn't tend to give it up. This is one of the reasons most of our players are from public schools, because rugby is the number 1 sport there.
True. It's a shame because the chances of many talented athletes making it as professional footballers is incredibly slim.

I would imagine there is a massive amount of untapped talent with the right physical attributes and potential to make it as professional rugby players who are simply lost to amateur football. Although we do get the odd one or two - I'm pretty sure Danny Care was a trainee at Sheffield Wednesday and Alex Lozowski was in the Chelsea academy.

We don't have an issue with our player base, but if rugby were the number one sport as it is in New Zealand, we'd have a ridiculous amount of talent available.

Also, given the chance to represent your country in a sport where you're consistently a top 4 team (or better), is surely more attractive than a consistently embarrassing/terrible football team.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

The hell? That wasn't me.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

Sorry - hard to do on a phone ... At least it wasn't a quote about Wade or Kvesic ...
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

:lol:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Plastic Sarrie wrote:
armchairfan wrote:I think Ben Spencer is Sarries academy too (and he's shaping up nicely).
Came from Cambridge, iirc.
Yep- wasted his time at Sarries but he was grateful for the chance and stayed :)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by 45jumper »

Ben Spencer went to Bramhall High School, still a bit annoyed that Sale didn't try and snap him up :(
He's in a fantastic environment at Sarries, but I can't help but think he would've benefited hugely from more gametime in recent seasons, I really do think he has it all :thumbup:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

Even George seems not to start as many matches as he should right now.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by BurrowHill »

Tigers sign Argie back row Tomas Leonardi. Ex Sunwolves, Toulouse, Edinburgh.

Could well be injury dispensation for Mike Williams. It would be a bit underwhelming if he is deemed a solution to our number 8 issues, not really being an 8 himself.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

Laidlaw going to Clermont could be a good thing for England.

Presumably it means Billy Burns will be kicking and maybe Braley will get a chance to show he's up to the job in the AP? They also have Harry Randall, but I think he's too young/lightweight to be a consideration any time soon.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

They'll probably splash the cash on an overrated old foreigner.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JJR »

I've heard a rumour that Jones is looking at playing Hughes, Vunipola and Robshaw in the backrow against South Africa.

:|
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

JJR wrote:I've heard a rumour that Jones is looking at playing Hughes, Vunipola and Robshaw in the backrow against South Africa.

:|
From where?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JJR »

Wendigo7 wrote:
JJR wrote:I've heard a rumour that Jones is looking at playing Hughes, Vunipola and Robshaw in the backrow against South Africa.

:|
From where?

Friends of a friend link only but the origin is someone in the England camp. Just reporting what I heard.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

I've not watched much of the rugby championship this time round, but the bits I did watch didn't have SA being too exceptional.

Hughes had a bad start, I suspect he was knackered from extra fitness work myself, when he came back into the starting lineup against Quins he had a storming game, and although BV was better, Hughes wasn't too shabby against Sarries either, picked up 2 or 3 turnovers I believe. With Itoje offering a lot in the breakdown, I can see it working.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by nicebutdim »

Raggs wrote:I've not watched much of the rugby championship this time round, but the bits I did watch didn't have SA being too exceptional.

Hughes had a bad start, I suspect he was knackered from extra fitness work myself, when he came back into the starting lineup against Quins he had a storming game, and although BV was better, Hughes wasn't too shabby against Sarries either, picked up 2 or 3 turnovers I believe. With Itoje offering a lot in the breakdown, I can see it working.
Hughes offers a lot physically but the biggest issue for him is how he uses it. Too often takes contact fairly upright. At international level the top sides and Ireland would hold him up quite frequently. If he could get his body lower and punch holes then he could offer a lot to England.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Raggs »

nicebutdim wrote:
Raggs wrote:I've not watched much of the rugby championship this time round, but the bits I did watch didn't have SA being too exceptional.

Hughes had a bad start, I suspect he was knackered from extra fitness work myself, when he came back into the starting lineup against Quins he had a storming game, and although BV was better, Hughes wasn't too shabby against Sarries either, picked up 2 or 3 turnovers I believe. With Itoje offering a lot in the breakdown, I can see it working.
Hughes offers a lot physically but the biggest issue for him is how he uses it. Too often takes contact fairly upright. At international level the top sides and Ireland would hold him up quite frequently. If he could get his body lower and punch holes then he could offer a lot to England.
Think he stays upright to try and work the offload, but you're right that he can potentially get caught. Hopefully Eddie and co work with him.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by nicebutdim »

Raggs wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Raggs wrote:I've not watched much of the rugby championship this time round, but the bits I did watch didn't have SA being too exceptional.

Hughes had a bad start, I suspect he was knackered from extra fitness work myself, when he came back into the starting lineup against Quins he had a storming game, and although BV was better, Hughes wasn't too shabby against Sarries either, picked up 2 or 3 turnovers I believe. With Itoje offering a lot in the breakdown, I can see it working.
Hughes offers a lot physically but the biggest issue for him is how he uses it. Too often takes contact fairly upright. At international level the top sides and Ireland would hold him up quite frequently. If he could get his body lower and punch holes then he could offer a lot to England.
Think he stays upright to try and work the offload, but you're right that he can potentially get caught. Hopefully Eddie and co work with him.
In big games against beastly opposition I see him get nullified a lot because of this. Sometimes he needs to put his head down and knock them backwards and international level the physically will go up another gear.

Still very raw in this regard anf yes I hope Eddie works on him.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Plastic Sarrie »

JM2K6 wrote:Even George seems not to start as many matches as he should right now.
he was fairly clearly first choice last season ahead of Brits until he got injured.

I have a suspicion that McCall might be protecting him in anticipation of England/Lions/going deep in Europe.

That said, Billy & Maro aren't being protected, so what do I know?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JJR »

Jones has said he wants 5 ball carriers and 3 ball players in his pack. That doesn't leave any room to carry anyone. I'm not even sure how Hartley would get into a pack with that mandate, George is the nearest England has to a ball playing hooker. I'm not particularly enamored of Cole's abilities outside of the set-piece either.

Who would Jones need to pick to have the 5/3 split?

1. M. Vunipola - Ball Carrier (BC)
2. George - Ball Player (BP)
3. Brookes - BC
4. Itoje - BC or BP?
5. Launchbury - BC
6. Robshaw - neither?
8. B. Vunipola - BC
7. Hughes - BC
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

Plastic Sarrie wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Even George seems not to start as many matches as he should right now.
he was fairly clearly first choice last season ahead of Brits until he got injured.

I have a suspicion that McCall might be protecting him in anticipation of England/Lions/going deep in Europe.

That said, Billy & Maro aren't being protected, so what do I know?
Happy to defer to your knowledge. Was just surprised that he's already been benched for a couple of games this season AFAIK.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by A5D5E5 »

JJR wrote:Jones has said he wants 5 ball carriers and 3 ball players in his pack. That doesn't leave any room to carry anyone. I'm not even sure how Hartley would get into a pack with that mandate, George is the nearest England has to a ball playing hooker. I'm not particularly enamored of Cole's abilities outside of the set-piece either.

Who would Jones need to pick to have the 5/3 split?

1. M. Vunipola - Ball Carrier (BC)
2. George - Ball Player (BP)
3. Brookes - BC
4. Itoje - BC or BP?
5. Launchbury - BC
6. Robshaw - neither?
8. B. Vunipola - BC
7. Hughes - BC
I don't know if what you are saying is correct re what Eddie wants, but irrespective of that, Mako is as fine a ball playing prop as you will find anywhere on the planet. I'd even call his passing "deft".
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

avoids obvious bait
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by blindcider »

avoids JJR
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