**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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Margin_Walker
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Margin_Walker »

Joost wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:Glad that Dombrandt made the initial cut.

One season wonder or not, he's a fun player to watch and offers a genuine point of difference. Given his late start will be interesting to see where his ceiling is
He was seriously impressive in the BaaBaas game - deserves a look

Really pleased that Ruairi McConnochie is in as well; he’ll suit England’s aerial game perfectly and has been outstanding in a very underwhelming Bath side all season.
Yeah, he's been quietly very impressive whenever I've seen him. In hindsight a very smart signing by Bath
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happyhooker
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by happyhooker »

Joost wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:Glad that Dombrandt made the initial cut.

One season wonder or not, he's a fun player to watch and offers a genuine point of difference. Given his late start will be interesting to see where his ceiling is
He was seriously impressive in the BaaBaas game - deserves a look

Really pleased that Ruairi McConnochie is in as well; he’ll suit England’s aerial game perfectly and has been outstanding in a very underwhelming Bath side all season.
Someone has already updated his wiki page to include his call up, but it still has him on 0 appearances for bath. I've only seen a couple of bath games this season and missed him entirely. I assume he's a winger
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Brad Shields :lol: :lol:
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DragsterDriver
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Margin_Walker wrote:
Joost wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:Glad that Dombrandt made the initial cut.

One season wonder or not, he's a fun player to watch and offers a genuine point of difference. Given his late start will be interesting to see where his ceiling is
He was seriously impressive in the BaaBaas game - deserves a look

Really pleased that Ruairi McConnochie is in as well; he’ll suit England’s aerial game perfectly and has been outstanding in a very underwhelming Bath side all season.
Yeah, he's been quietly very impressive whenever I've seen him. In hindsight a very smart signing by Bath
For a lean 7s player I was really impressed with his hard carrying, surprisingly tough to put down.
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fatcat
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by fatcat »

Yeah in the games I saw of bath he usually stood out.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Mike Catt joins the Ireland set up- prepare for him to attain god status :lol:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Will Greenwood's comments on the England squad are strange, seems like a massive bit of revisionism but he claims Care's performance vs Japan last Autumn was what cost him his place in the WC squad

I mean, sure it fits the timeline given he hasn't played for England since, but really?
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eldanielfire
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

DragsterDriver wrote:Mike Catt joins the Ireland set up- prepare for him to attain god status :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Balls Out!
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Balls Out! »

openclashXX wrote:Will Greenwood's comments on the England squad are strange, seems like a massive bit of revisionism but he claims Care's performance vs Japan last Autumn was what cost him his place in the WC squad

I mean, sure it fits the timeline given he hasn't played for England since, but really?
I saw that and questioned it, as I don't really remember that game. But sure enough I found a Telegraph article from back then in which (from the first couple of non-paywalled paragraphs) Care himself says Eddie dropped him because he wasn't good enough against Japan. He would have to earn his spot back through club form which presumably he didn't manage to do
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Joost
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Joost »

eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:Mike Catt joins the Ireland set up- prepare for him to attain god status :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
So the IRFU now has the entire 2015 RWC coaching team on their books :shock:
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fatcat
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by fatcat »

Ireland's loss is Italy's gain.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

Balls Out! wrote:
openclashXX wrote:Will Greenwood's comments on the England squad are strange, seems like a massive bit of revisionism but he claims Care's performance vs Japan last Autumn was what cost him his place in the WC squad

I mean, sure it fits the timeline given he hasn't played for England since, but really?
I saw that and questioned it, as I don't really remember that game. But sure enough I found a Telegraph article from back then in which (from the first couple of non-paywalled paragraphs) Care himself says Eddie dropped him because he wasn't good enough against Japan. He would have to earn his spot back through club form which presumably he didn't manage to do
Yep. That game was the death knell for Care and seems to have put a black mark against Lozowski and Mercer too.

I find that ridiculous on a number of levels.

1) all three have gone on to have very good seasons, so club form clearly didn’t count
2) the players called up instead of them either haven’t been as good (Mercer vs. Ludlam) or have serious injury question marks (Robson).
3) how come Brad Shields firstly got in and secondly kept his place without a single game (club or international) good enough to justify it?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

to be fair it was a shitshow against Japan when he started, but let's be honest about this - Danny Care has 80+ test under 3 different coaching setups and has never looked convincing as a starting 9 for England, all of his positive impact for England has come from the bench - so everyone knows what Care brings to an England team

what I find bizarre is why he was dropped now having been involved with Eddie's England squads for the previous 3 seasons, and what has changed in the pecking order with other 9s to allow him to be dropped (other than maybe Ben Spencer's emergence as the starting 9 for Sarries)

Robson is still pretty much untested at this level (and potentially not even able to compete physically given his medical status), Wigglesworth is still Wigglesworth (and not even starting the big games for Sarries anymore), the young kids that have been given the odd call-up or namecheck here and there (Maunder, Randall etc) aren't realistically going to be involved - so why dump Care now and not 1-2 years ago?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

It’s also possible they just don’t like care.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

just having a look at Care's record under Eddie:

1. involved in 31 tests in three seasons, with 10 starts

2. of those 10 starts - 1 vs Samoa, 1 vs Japan, 1 vs Italy and 2 vs Argentina B

3. the remaining 5 starts against serious opposition: Scotland 2016 (W), France 2016 (W), Wales 2018 (W), Scotland 2018 (L), France 2018 (L)

4. the longest uninterrupted run he's had as a starter before being dropped is 3 games during the 2018 Six Nations (vs Youngs who started 10 games consecutively between 2016-17)

so it's fairly obvious that he's not seen by Eddie as a realistic starting option at 9 for England - only an impact sub or occasionally a tactical selection - but then why drop him now, less than six months out from the WC?
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Joost
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Joost »

openclashXX wrote:to be fair it was a shitshow against Japan when he started, but let's be honest about this - Danny Care has 80+ test under 3 different coaching setups and has never looked convincing as a starting 9 for England, all of his positive impact for England has come from the bench - so everyone knows what Care brings to an England team

what I find bizarre is why he was dropped now having been involved with Eddie's England squads for the previous 3 seasons, and what has changed in the pecking order with other 9s to allow him to be dropped (other than maybe Ben Spencer's emergence as the starting 9 for Sarries)

Robson is still pretty much untested at this level (and potentially not even able to compete physically given his medical status), Wigglesworth is still Wigglesworth (and not even starting the big games for Sarries anymore), the young kids that have been given the odd call-up or namecheck here and there (Maunder, Randall etc) aren't realistically going to be involved - so why dump Care now and not 1-2 years ago?
Would’ve thought Mitchell would be worth a look after the BaaBaas game and his form for Saints; hopefully he starts being involved after the RWC.

Hughes is still the biggest head-scratcher for me - suggests a change of tack from EJ re his no.8s.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by sockwithaticket »

And right after he'd re-found his best club form.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

Club form counts for nothing with Eddie. Look no further than Ben Te’o for the evidence of that.

What he likes and doesn’t like are a real mystery TBH.

Care is not a starter for England, but he is an excellent impact sub. Leaving him out would have been OK if Eddie had actually given Robson or Spencer any meaningful game time over the past few seasons. My issue is dropping him at the 11th hour without having invested in his replacements.

The same goes for Hughes. Eddie stuck with him despite a significant slump in form only to drop him when he’s actually playing well. :?

It just defies all logic.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

not all club form is equal - Brad Shields is evidence of that

the only rationale is perhaps if Ben Spencer has fully usurped Care as the #2 scrum-half for England - he's always been a fantastic impact sub for Sarries but this is the first season he's been a convincing first-choice 9

still, it's a dire situation no matter who gets picked - if Youngs pulls up injured in the first game of the WC then we're frankly f*cked because Care is an impact sub at best, and the remaining 9s are all too green at this level
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Scrumhead »

That’s fair re. Spencer. Less so for Robson, who could and should have had more of a chance way before he finally got it.

As it is, I’d start Spencer for the warm-ups to give him the maximum amount of exposure with Youngs easing back in off the bench.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by sockwithaticket »

Scrumhead wrote:Club form counts for nothing with Eddie. Look no further than Ben Te’o for the evidence of that.

What he likes and doesn’t like are a real mystery TBH.

Care is not a starter for England, but he is an excellent impact sub. Leaving him out would have been OK if Eddie had actually given Robson or Spencer any meaningful game time over the past few seasons. My issue is dropping him at the 11th hour without having invested in his replacements.

The same goes for Hughes. Eddie stuck with him despite a significant slump in form only to drop him when he’s actually playing well. :?

It just defies all logic.
That's what I was hinting at, he's stuck within Hughes through some really patchy form and now that he's been playing well again he appears to be dropped
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Sale Sharks’ Chris Ashton has withdrawn from England’s World Cup training squad for family reasons.

The 32 year old winger will not be replaced in the squad that assembles at Pennyhill Park Hotel today.

Ashton, who has been capped 44 times for England, said: “When I returned from Toulon last season it was for two reasons; firstly for my family and secondly to try and realise the dream of playing for England again.

“Pulling on the white shirt is always special and I’m grateful to Eddie for giving me the opportunity to have done so again.

“My wife, Melissa, is pregnant with our second child and I don’t feel it is right for me to commit to being away in camp at this stage.

“In the meantime I wish Owen and the boys all the very best with their preparation over the coming months.”
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

sockwithaticket wrote:
Scrumhead wrote:Club form counts for nothing with Eddie. Look no further than Ben Te’o for the evidence of that.

What he likes and doesn’t like are a real mystery TBH.

Care is not a starter for England, but he is an excellent impact sub. Leaving him out would have been OK if Eddie had actually given Robson or Spencer any meaningful game time over the past few seasons. My issue is dropping him at the 11th hour without having invested in his replacements.

The same goes for Hughes. Eddie stuck with him despite a significant slump in form only to drop him when he’s actually playing well. :?

It just defies all logic.
That's what I was hinting at, he's stuck within Hughes through some really patchy form and now that he's been playing well again he appears to be dropped
I'm hot and cold about hughes, he's a shit straight-line ball runner but was in excellent form for wasps end of the season. He's not billy, you can't play him like that...even billy can't take the punishment.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Scrumhead wrote:Club form counts for nothing with Eddie. Look no further than Ben Te’o for the evidence of that.

What he likes and doesn’t like are a real mystery TBH.

Care is not a starter for England, but he is an excellent impact sub. Leaving him out would have been OK if Eddie had actually given Robson or Spencer any meaningful game time over the past few seasons. My issue is dropping him at the 11th hour without having invested in his replacements.

The same goes for Hughes. Eddie stuck with him despite a significant slump in form only to drop him when he’s actually playing well. :?

It just defies all logic.
Test coaches don't give a fuck about club form, never have, almost certainly never will.

Inclined to agree that Eddie's concluded that running with a Picamoles-esque No. 8 is not a sustainable strategy and is looking elsewhere, which I agree with, but it's got a bit of a Johnno in 2011 feel to it. Though with perhaps some justification this time
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

Heinz, Thorley, Cips and Lawes to be called into the squad on the next wave

Heinz over Care is a shambles pick
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by choc »

Squad as expected but Sinkler sent home and Schonert retained. I guess with Hartley gone and Mako injured we’ve got to up the poach quotient, which surely can be the only explanation as to why Heinz is in there, but seems an odd one.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by happyhooker »

Why was sinkler sent home?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by choc »

Bad wording on my part. He’s not been “sent home” as in a disciplinary issue, which is probably a fair assumption with Sinckler, just not retained in the squad, whilst all the other senior players seem to have been.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Nobleman »

Sinckler and Smith have been sent back to Quins for the week. As always the explanation from EJ is strange:

"We have a couple of players going back to their clubs as we feel it is in their best interests in terms of the World Cup to do that, and we will consider their participation in the squad further down the track.”
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Bayern »

Nobleman wrote:Sinckler and Smith have been sent back to Quins for the week. As always the explanation from EJ is strange:

"We have a couple of players going back to their clubs as we feel it is in their best interests in terms of the World Cup to do that, and we will consider their participation in the squad further down the track.”
Sinckler provided the highlight of the 6N for me in the Scotland game. Great burst through the middle (glorious sight the biggins on the carry) he only had the f/b to run over and he would have gone all the way, try came a couple of phases later anyway.
Exchange with one of the coaches probably, no doubt he will feature in the warm-up games I would think.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by happyhooker »

Bayern wrote:
Nobleman wrote:Sinckler and Smith have been sent back to Quins for the week. As always the explanation from EJ is strange:

"We have a couple of players going back to their clubs as we feel it is in their best interests in terms of the World Cup to do that, and we will consider their participation in the squad further down the track.”
Sinckler provided the highlight of the 6N for me in the Scotland game. Great burst through the middle (glorious sight the biggins on the carry) he only had the f/b to run over and he would have gone all the way, try came a couple of phases later anyway.
Exchange with one of the coaches probably, no doubt he will feature in the warm-up games I would think.
I bloody hope so.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

And smith?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by happyhooker »

DragsterDriver wrote:And smith?
I can't see him making Japan, can you?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by sockwithaticket »

DragsterDriver wrote:And smith?
Told to come back when puberty strikes? Or when all of Cips, Ford and Farrell aren't available?

Suspect he was only there because Faz isn't right now and he'll be joining up next week won't he?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by choc »

Smiths omission is less of a surprise. He’s clearly 4th choice at best and making up the numbers whilst the semi and finalists have their rest. Sincklers is more concerning.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Just wondered as they’ve left together. Sinkler is a great player outside the scrum.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Tez »

openclashXX wrote:not all club form is equal - Brad Shields is evidence of that

the only rationale is perhaps if Ben Spencer has fully usurped Care as the #2 scrum-half for England - he's always been a fantastic impact sub for Sarries but this is the first season he's been a convincing first-choice 9

still, it's a dire situation no matter who gets picked - if Youngs pulls up injured in the first game of the WC then we're frankly f*cked because Care is an impact sub at best, and the remaining 9s are all too green at this level
If Youngs is your 1st choice 9 you’re already f**ked! I watch the GP quite a lot and wonder why he is no.1. He’s been there, not done it and doesn’t even have the T-shirt, all he has is experience but you wouldn’t know it. I would go with Spencer.
Apologies for interrupting your thread but he really grinds my gears.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Tez wrote:
openclashXX wrote:not all club form is equal - Brad Shields is evidence of that

the only rationale is perhaps if Ben Spencer has fully usurped Care as the #2 scrum-half for England - he's always been a fantastic impact sub for Sarries but this is the first season he's been a convincing first-choice 9

still, it's a dire situation no matter who gets picked - if Youngs pulls up injured in the first game of the WC then we're frankly f*cked because Care is an impact sub at best, and the remaining 9s are all too green at this level
If Youngs is your 1st choice 9 you’re already f**ked! I watch the GP quite a lot and wonder why he is no.1. He’s been there, not done it and doesn’t even have the T-shirt, all he has is experience but you wouldn’t know it. I would go with Spencer.
Apologies for interrupting your thread but he really grinds my gears.
I don't think many find youngs satisfactory.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by terryfinch »

Speak it quietly, and I know Super Rugby is shite, but should we be worried by the form of the Jaguars (Argentina) ahead of the RWC?
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