**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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DragsterDriver
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

JM2K6 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Anyway, who’s ready for more ill-conceived cockeyed nonsense masquerading as rugby journalism?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson losing his mind again.
What offence are you taking with that column? Kitson certainly does talk rubbish frequently, but I think he raises a few good points, is a team of all rounders vulnerable to a team of specialists? Rugby academies in England certainly do frequently choose size over skill.
The idea that players with a range of skills hasn't been a thing for at least the last ten years
The idea that Kruis' attempted kick was a thing worth praising
JJ being touted as some kind of complete newcomer to the wing
Treating Eddie Jones' nonsense about Nowell & Earl as something worth considering just because a few players have played in very similar positions to those they normally play in


How the fuck do we get to this breathless ill-considered nonsense about "numbers don't matter" and "backs and forwards are interchangeable" from Eddie picking a few players in not their best positions and then talking a load of guff about stuff he'll never do?

Yep.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by forrester »

sockwithaticket wrote:
backrow wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Anyway, who’s ready for more ill-conceived cockeyed nonsense masquerading as rugby journalism?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson losing his mind again.
In amongst all that is a nugget of truth worth pursuing, particularly given our dearth of 12s, though it's more Eddie than Kitson:

Certain quicker, skilled flankers could be effectively used in the backline.

A lot of the time top level cenres and flankers are pretty physically indistinct. 6'2 to 6'4, robust and capable of carrying. The best flankers tend to be reasonably quick and 12s are rarely the fastest backs in the team.

Someone like Sam Hill who is basically a pure crash ball merchant, would his role be done less effectively by someone like Ben Earl?

Think of the years of Noon and Tindall, would we have lost anything by sticking prime Haskell or Croft in one of those positions? Croft would've comfortably outrun either of them.

Teach them to pass properly and a flanker would be doing a better job than a surprising number of professional 12s.
wasn't there a Flanker / lock who filled in pretty successfully in the backs for a few games ? Forrester ?
Can't think of anyone who did it for a sustained period, but I feel like we might have had Narraway or someone doing 10 minutes there due to injuries.
Forrester filled in there at the end of a few games and he had a couple of starts when we were missing a few through injury.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by geordie_6 »

sockwithaticket wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:Some chat in the Wail today that the England v Italy game could be relocated, with the two named options being either Twickenham or St James' Park.
As it was due to be an way game, taking it to St. James' would be a good option and a gesture towards engagement with the north. Believe the players said they'd like to play more gamed outside of HQ?

RFU probably, want the Twickenham revenue though
Difficulty would be that Newcastle have a home game that Saturday I believe.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by 4071 »

geordie_6 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
geordie_6 wrote:Some chat in the Wail today that the England v Italy game could be relocated, with the two named options being either Twickenham or St James' Park.
As it was due to be an way game, taking it to St. James' would be a good option and a gesture towards engagement with the north. Believe the players said they'd like to play more gamed outside of HQ?

RFU probably, want the Twickenham revenue though
Difficulty would be that Newcastle have a home game that Saturday I believe.
Play the test as a warm up for the Newcastle match.

2 for 1 deal on the tickets.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Nabberuk »

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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by The Man Without Fear »

Rumours that Watson is nearly fit enough to be rushed back too soon, or alternatively just in time to pick up another injury.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Womack »

JM2K6 wrote:
The idea that players with a range of skills hasn't been a thing for at least the last ten years
The idea that Kruis' attempted kick was a thing worth praising
JJ being touted as some kind of complete newcomer to the wing
Treating Eddie Jones' nonsense about Nowell & Earl as something worth considering just because a few players have played in very similar positions to those they normally play in


How the fuck do we get to this breathless ill-considered nonsense about "numbers don't matter" and "backs and forwards are interchangeable" from Eddie picking a few players in not their best positions and then talking a load of guff about stuff he'll never do?
It's the sort of stuff that might have been written a couple of years into professionalism, when everything was exciting and new.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by backrow »

forrester wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
backrow wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Anyway, who’s ready for more ill-conceived cockeyed nonsense masquerading as rugby journalism?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson losing his mind again.
In amongst all that is a nugget of truth worth pursuing, particularly given our dearth of 12s, though it's more Eddie than Kitson:

Certain quicker, skilled flankers could be effectively used in the backline.

A lot of the time top level cenres and flankers are pretty physically indistinct. 6'2 to 6'4, robust and capable of carrying. The best flankers tend to be reasonably quick and 12s are rarely the fastest backs in the team.

Someone like Sam Hill who is basically a pure crash ball merchant, would his role be done less effectively by someone like Ben Earl?

Think of the years of Noon and Tindall, would we have lost anything by sticking prime Haskell or Croft in one of those positions? Croft would've comfortably outrun either of them.

Teach them to pass properly and a flanker would be doing a better job than a surprising number of professional 12s.
wasn't there a Flanker / lock who filled in pretty successfully in the backs for a few games ? Forrester ?
Can't think of anyone who did it for a sustained period, but I feel like we might have had Narraway or someone doing 10 minutes there due to injuries.
Forrester filled in there at the end of a few games and he had a couple of starts when we were missing a few through injury.
pffft, how would you know ?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Joost »

Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by happyhooker »

Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
At 11?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by terryfinch »

sockwithaticket wrote:
backrow wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Anyway, who’s ready for more ill-conceived cockeyed nonsense masquerading as rugby journalism?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson losing his mind again.
In amongst all that is a nugget of truth worth pursuing, particularly given our dearth of 12s, though it's more Eddie than Kitson:

Certain quicker, skilled flankers could be effectively used in the backline.

A lot of the time top level cenres and flankers are pretty physically indistinct. 6'2 to 6'4, robust and capable of carrying. The best flankers tend to be reasonably quick and 12s are rarely the fastest backs in the team.

Someone like Sam Hill who is basically a pure crash ball merchant, would his role be done less effectively by someone like Ben Earl?

Think of the years of Noon and Tindall, would we have lost anything by sticking prime Haskell or Croft in one of those positions? Croft would've comfortably outrun either of them.

Teach them to pass properly and a flanker would be doing a better job than a surprising number of professional 12s.
wasn't there a Flanker / lock who filled in pretty successfully in the backs for a few games ? Forrester ?
Can't think of anyone who did it for a sustained period, but I feel like we might have had Narraway or someone doing 10 minutes there due to injuries.
Jonny May at flanker was a sight to behold.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Balls Out! »

happyhooker wrote:
Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
At 11?
:lol:

I have a feeling that when Eddie makes a decision he gets panned for (say, Curry at 8, Lawes at 6, Daly at 15, JJ on the wing) he'll persist with it until it pays off - by chance or otherwise - even if it takes an eternity. Only then will he reverse that decision, and he can then feel like he's made that change on his own terms, not because the media have bullied him into it. Extreme stubbornness, basically.

Now that he's essentially been vindicated by the Ireland result, I dare say we'll see a reversion to a more standard teamsheet.

Incidentally, everyone's been talking about Eddie being nuts for having 5 second rows in the team this past weekend, and Ewels playing at 8 when Itoje could have moved. I wonder if this is actually Proudfoot's influence. Everyone seems to have forgotten than when Pieter Steph du Toit was moved from 2nd to back row, he was panned at first (dummied twice in one game by Youngs etc), but that paid off pretty well in the end, didn't it? Think we're seeing England in 2020 trying to replicate SA in 2019
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

Wasn't PSDT actually playing openside in that match, though?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by backrow »

JM2K6 wrote:Wasn't PSDT actually playing openside in that match, though?
no, he wears 7, in SA that's blindside not openside I think.
Kolisi was 6
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hells Bells »

Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
Ideally for Wales you’d see Wilson start at 8 with Curry moved back to 6 but can see Eddie keeping the same team sheet as the Ireland game.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Woddy »

Hells Bells wrote:
Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
Ideally for Wales you’d see Wilson start at 8 with Curry moved back to 6 but can see Eddie keeping the same team sheet as the Ireland game.
Not sure he will. He's a horses for courses coach, and Wales are a very different nag to Ireland this year. Perhaps he'll want more speed and linking and less power-defence. Might even see Mako back, if his family issues have been dealt with.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

backrow wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Wasn't PSDT actually playing openside in that match, though?
no, he wears 7, in SA that's blindside not openside I think.
Kolisi was 6
Ah, I remembered it as Alberts. Mind we probably went sans openside too with Wood and Robshaw
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Balls Out! »

piquant wrote:
backrow wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Wasn't PSDT actually playing openside in that match, though?
no, he wears 7, in SA that's blindside not openside I think.
Kolisi was 6
Ah, I remembered it as Alberts. Mind we probably went sans openside too with Wood and Robshaw
I guess my point wasn't about the specific positions in the back row, more just that SA were upsizing even more than usual by filling the pack with more 2nd row types. Seems to what England are now doing, with 2Rs at 4, 5, 6, and 8. Was Ewels on before Earl? If so, that meant we had 4 on at the same time
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by crash 669 »

Hells Bells wrote:
Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
Ideally for Wales you’d see Wilson start at 8 with Curry moved back to 6 but can see Eddie keeping the same team sheet as the Ireland game.
Or Earl at 8 and Wilson on the bench covering 8 and 6?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

JM2K6 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Anyway, who’s ready for more ill-conceived cockeyed nonsense masquerading as rugby journalism?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson losing his mind again.
What offence are you taking with that column? Kitson certainly does talk rubbish frequently, but I think he raises a few good points, is a team of all rounders vulnerable to a team of specialists? Rugby academies in England certainly do frequently choose size over skill.
The idea that players with a range of skills hasn't been a thing for at least the last ten years
The idea that Kruis' attempted kick was a thing worth praising
JJ being touted as some kind of complete newcomer to the wing
Treating Eddie Jones' nonsense about Nowell & Earl as something worth considering just because a few players have played in very similar positions to those they normally play in


How the fuck do we get to this breathless ill-considered nonsense about "numbers don't matter" and "backs and forwards are interchangeable" from Eddie picking a few players in not their best positions and then talking a load of guff about stuff he'll never do?
Fair enough.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Balls Out! »

eldanielfire wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Anyway, who’s ready for more ill-conceived cockeyed nonsense masquerading as rugby journalism?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ix-nations

Kitson losing his mind again.
What offence are you taking with that column? Kitson certainly does talk rubbish frequently, but I think he raises a few good points, is a team of all rounders vulnerable to a team of specialists? Rugby academies in England certainly do frequently choose size over skill.
The idea that players with a range of skills hasn't been a thing for at least the last ten years
The idea that Kruis' attempted kick was a thing worth praising
JJ being touted as some kind of complete newcomer to the wing
Treating Eddie Jones' nonsense about Nowell & Earl as something worth considering just because a few players have played in very similar positions to those they normally play in


How the fuck do we get to this breathless ill-considered nonsense about "numbers don't matter" and "backs and forwards are interchangeable" from Eddie picking a few players in not their best positions and then talking a load of guff about stuff he'll never do?
Fair enough.
Yep. I also noted where he said (my emphasis) "Already you can see it lower down the scale. Youngsters are being picked for Premiership academies less on skill than size and physiology"

Weren't people saying that about England age groups for, well, over a decade now? Orclets on steroids etc etc. And that led to the re-emergence of Brian Ashton etc as the messiahs of skill-over-sized-based rugby? So, yeah, Kitson is kind of right, but like 10 years out of date, and there's maybe now a shift in the opposite direction
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by The Man Without Fear »

Balls Out! wrote:
piquant wrote:
backrow wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Wasn't PSDT actually playing openside in that match, though?
no, he wears 7, in SA that's blindside not openside I think.
Kolisi was 6
Ah, I remembered it as Alberts. Mind we probably went sans openside too with Wood and Robshaw
I guess my point wasn't about the specific positions in the back row, more just that SA were upsizing even more than usual by filling the pack with more 2nd row types. Seems to what England are now doing, with 2Rs at 4, 5, 6, and 8. Was Ewels on before Earl? If so, that meant we had 4 on at the same time
Fighting yesterday's battles today.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Woddy wrote:
Hells Bells wrote:
Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
Ideally for Wales you’d see Wilson start at 8 with Curry moved back to 6 but can see Eddie keeping the same team sheet as the Ireland game.
Not sure he will. He's a horses for courses coach, and Wales are a very different nag to Ireland this year. Perhaps he'll want more speed and linking and less power-defence. Might even see Mako back, if his family issues have been dealt with.
Tipuric is seriously mobile.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

backrow wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Wasn't PSDT actually playing openside in that match, though?
no, he wears 7, in SA that's blindside not openside I think.
Kolisi was 6

No. Wrong match. This was in 2016 and I'm fairly sure that despite wearing 7 he did play openside, because the other flanker was Willem Alberts...
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hells Bells »

Mark Wilson has been recalled into the squad ahead of England’s next Guinness Six Nations match against Wales at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 7 March (KO 4.45pm).

In addition, apprentice Alex Mitchell will join up with the squad and George Furbank will be in camp for rehabilitation.
Mako Vunipola and Luke Cowan-Dickie are not included for family reasons.
England have beaten Scotland and Ireland in the competition, while losing to France in round one.

Forwards
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Apprentice
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by tc27 »

Even without the directors of Vulnprop LTD there is a pretty good side in that squad.

Really hope Wilson gets the nod.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Woddy »

DragsterDriver wrote:
Woddy wrote:
Hells Bells wrote:
Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
Ideally for Wales you’d see Wilson start at 8 with Curry moved back to 6 but can see Eddie keeping the same team sheet as the Ireland game.
Not sure he will. He's a horses for courses coach, and Wales are a very different nag to Ireland this year. Perhaps he'll want more speed and linking and less power-defence. Might even see Mako back, if his family issues have been dealt with.
Tipuric is seriously mobile.
Quite. I reckon Eddie will want to go some way to matching / countering that. Chance to see if Curry can keep his own pace going all match.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by sockwithaticket »

My heart always sinks a bit seeing Dunn in the squad, he's just a decent Prem player imo. Then I remember that outside George and LCD, there really aren't any standout English hookers, which is a bloody travesty.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by SaintK »

sockwithaticket wrote:My heart always sinks a bit seeing Dunn in the squad, he's just a decent Prem player imo. Then I remember that outside George and LCD, there really aren't any standout English hookers, which is a bloody travesty.
Only 2 hookers so Dunn will see game time. Think you are being a bit harsh, he has looked more than "decent" the past couple of seasons. Agree with your other point mind you there aren't many putting their hands up
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by crash 669 »

Woddy wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Woddy wrote:
Hells Bells wrote:
Joost wrote:Mark Wilson recalled to the squad for Wales - some sense breaking-out at last?
Ideally for Wales you’d see Wilson start at 8 with Curry moved back to 6 but can see Eddie keeping the same team sheet as the Ireland game.
Not sure he will. He's a horses for courses coach, and Wales are a very different nag to Ireland this year. Perhaps he'll want more speed and linking and less power-defence. Might even see Mako back, if his family issues have been dealt with.
Tipuric is seriously mobile.
Quite. I reckon Eddie will want to go some way to matching / countering that. Chance to see if Curry can keep his own pace going all match.
I've erased the 2nd half of us vs the taffs last year from my memory, but I seem to remember Curry doing really well in spite of the result. Did he get yanked or drop off in the 2nd half? Really can't remember.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by happyhooker »

SaintK wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:My heart always sinks a bit seeing Dunn in the squad, he's just a decent Prem player imo. Then I remember that outside George and LCD, there really aren't any standout English hookers, which is a bloody travesty.
Only 2 hookers so Dunn will see game time. Think you are being a bit harsh, he has looked more than "decent" the past couple of seasons. Agree with your other point mind you there aren't many putting their hands up
Taylor was the other, but hasn't been quite the same since his injury
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by tc27 »

Welsh back three looking dodgy if they are forced to play North and 1/2p who both look miles off the pace.

Could be that last years kicking strategy may work better this time.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Joost »

happyhooker wrote:
SaintK wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:My heart always sinks a bit seeing Dunn in the squad, he's just a decent Prem player imo. Then I remember that outside George and LCD, there really aren't any standout English hookers, which is a bloody travesty.
Only 2 hookers so Dunn will see game time. Think you are being a bit harsh, he has looked more than "decent" the past couple of seasons. Agree with your other point mind you there aren't many putting their hands up
Taylor was the other, but hasn't been quite the same since his injury
Love Dunn, his workrate and commitment are excellent; he may not quite have the physical attributes to be a multi-cap international hooker (and he does get the occasional lineup yips), but he’ll tackle/carry his heart out if he gets on.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by terryfinch »

Anyone else struggling to understand the love for Ewels? What does he bring?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by crash 669 »

tc27 wrote:Welsh back three looking dodgy if they are forced to play North and 1/2p who both look miles off the pace.

Could be that last years kicking strategy may work better this time.
North is worrying with the frequency of concussions that he gets. Fantastic player no doubt, but it's a bit scary how often he's unconscious on the pitch.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by polyallstar »

terryfinch wrote:Anyone else struggling to understand the love for Ewels? What does he bring?
me, f**king baffling, flies under the radar as there are bigger selection WTFs
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by JM2K6 »

More Bath bias IMO.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by blindcider »

happyhooker wrote:
SaintK wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:My heart always sinks a bit seeing Dunn in the squad, he's just a decent Prem player imo. Then I remember that outside George and LCD, there really aren't any standout English hookers, which is a bloody travesty.
Only 2 hookers so Dunn will see game time. Think you are being a bit harsh, he has looked more than "decent" the past couple of seasons. Agree with your other point mind you there aren't many putting their hands up
Taylor was the other, but hasn't been quite the same since his injury
Thacker? :lol:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by sockwithaticket »

SaintK wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:My heart always sinks a bit seeing Dunn in the squad, he's just a decent Prem player imo. Then I remember that outside George and LCD, there really aren't any standout English hookers, which is a bloody travesty.
Only 2 hookers so Dunn will see game time. Think you are being a bit harsh, he has looked more than "decent" the past couple of seasons. Agree with your other point mind you there aren't many putting their hands up
I don't really see all that much of Bath tbh, so maybe I am being harsh, but when I have seen them Dunn seems like a 110% effort kind of player, but lacking in top class ability a la the two main England men.

He may well be the next best cab off the rank after LCD, but I see that more as a damning statement on our hooker stocks than any particular endorsement of his international credentials.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by sockwithaticket »

polyallstar wrote:
terryfinch wrote:Anyone else struggling to understand the love for Ewels? What does he bring?
me, f**king baffling, flies under the radar as there are bigger selection WTFs
Sign me up for this viewpoint.

The other thing is, with 4 top class second rows in the squad, why do we need a super average 5th? He's using up an EPS slot that could be filled more usefully with another scrum half or a back rower Eddie might condescend to play in their correct position...
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