**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

[Dobbin]

When you guys were winning and playing well you didn't blame the ref.
Think about it. Shipping 40 points wasn't the refs fault. There are a lot of rose cnuted glasses on tbh.
Enoy your delusions about being unfairly reffed every time you lose.

Why would we blame the ref for winning? We might thank him, as I'm sure all right-minded Welshies are thanking the hapless M. Gauzere today, but blame him for winning? What an odd idea.

[DragsterDriver]

The players are thick and indisciplined. Fücking shambles.

Looks like Eddie is such an autocrat with such a defined plan that they have been coached not to think, and just follow instructions. They may not have been the brightest bunch to start with, but he's managed to make them thicker.

The selection of the thickest player in the squad as captain is a huge mistake.

I can’t imagine Billy being the Sarries quiz champion tbf.

Itoje is reputed to have a brain the size of a planet but plays like an utter moron.

[nicebutdim]

Strangely enjoyable game.

I thought we did very well to get back into it at 24-24 after poor refereering. We were playing all the rugby and looking pretty damn good. However the way we played in the last twenty minutes when the game was there to win was dreadful and we deserved to lose. Wales were solid but we just threw the game away with ill discipline and errors.

We were behind because of the ref, and lost because of us.

[ovalball]

Strangely enjoyable game.

I thought we did very well to get back into it at 24-24 after poor refereering. We were playing all the rugby and looking pretty damn good. However the way we played in the last twenty minutes when the game was there to win was dreadful and we deserved to lose. Wales were solid but we just threw the game away with ill discipline and errors.

We were behind because of the ref, and lost because of us.

Their 1st try would not have happened if a) we hadn't committed so many penalties that Farrell was told to talk to his players b) we hadn't committed a penalty in a danger zone. We opened ourselves up to the dangers. 23 points scored where we didn't touch the ball after conceding a penalty. That's our problem - that's why we lost - not the unfortunate decisions that followed.

[blindcider]

This isnt a whinge but one thing I thought interesting yesterday was the ref and the offside lines. He was very clear on where he wanted the line to be but it had no relation to the law on offside. This then went out the window in the last quarter and he stopped refereeing it all together.

There was a real strange moment as well when he told off the entire English line for going offside and stopped them and then said it was ok as the ball had been lifted

[terryfinch]

This isnt a whinge but one thing I thought interesting yesterday was the ref and the offside lines. He was very clear on where he wanted the line to be but it had no relation to the law on offside. This then went out the window in the last quarter and he stopped refereeing it all together.

There was a real strange moment as well when he told off the entire English line for going offside and stopped them and then said it was ok as the ball had been lifted

I have given up trying to understand the laws tbh. It is becoming a cr*p game to watch with too many random stoppages.

[DragsterDriver]

It’s not the laws, it’s having an idiot reffing and a helmet in the TMO box.

[blindcider]

This isnt a whinge but one thing I thought interesting yesterday was the ref and the offside lines. He was very clear on where he wanted the line to be but it had no relation to the law on offside. This then went out the window in the last quarter and he stopped refereeing it all together.

There was a real strange moment as well when he told off the entire English line for going offside and stopped them and then said it was ok as the ball had been lifted

I have given up trying to understand the laws tbh. It is becoming a cr*p game to watch with too many random stoppages.

For me the worst thing they have changed recently is that they have really slowed down the scrum set process. Its leading to more collapsed and penalties because the front rows are needing to hold the balance for an age after the long bind

[ovalball]

This isnt a whinge but one thing I thought interesting yesterday was the ref and the offside lines. He was very clear on where he wanted the line to be but it had no relation to the law on offside. This then went out the window in the last quarter and he stopped refereeing it all together.

There was a real strange moment as well when he told off the entire English line for going offside and stopped them and then said it was ok as the ball had been lifted

I have given up trying to understand the laws tbh. It is becoming a cr*p game to watch with too many random stoppages.

For me the worst thing they have changed recently is that they have really slowed down the scrum set process. Its leading to more collapsed and penalties because the front rows are needing to hold the balance for an age after the long bind

Thing I hate is the caterpillar being formed at a ruck, to allow the SH to kick. At one stage Wales had a 4 men join behind the ruck to prevent any chance of a charge down. If refs enforced the 5 sec rule they wouldn't have time to bring in all the extra players. It needs to be outlawed.

[RodneyRegis]

This isnt a whinge but one thing I thought interesting yesterday was the ref and the offside lines. He was very clear on where he wanted the line to be but it had no relation to the law on offside. This then went out the window in the last quarter and he stopped refereeing it all together.

There was a real strange moment as well when he told off the entire English line for going offside and stopped them and then said it was ok as the ball had been lifted

I have given up trying to understand the laws tbh. It is becoming a cr*p game to watch with too many random stoppages.

For me the worst thing they have changed recently is that they have really slowed down the scrum set process. Its leading to more collapsed and penalties because the front rows are needing to hold the balance for an age after the long bind

Thing I hate is the caterpillar being formed at a ruck, to allow the SH to kick. At one stage Wales had a 4 men join behind the ruck to prevent any chance of a charge down. If refs enforced the 5 sec rule they wouldn't have time to bring in all the extra players. It needs to be outlawed.

Exactly. Call use it as soon as the ball is available at every ruck, not sometimes when it's already been available for 5 seconds, and then give them 10.

[Anonymous 1]

This isnt a whinge but one thing I thought interesting yesterday was the ref and the offside lines. He was very clear on where he wanted the line to be but it had no relation to the law on offside. This then went out the window in the last quarter and he stopped refereeing it all together.

There was a real strange moment as well when he told off the entire English line for going offside and stopped them and then said it was ok as the ball had been lifted

That was funny/weird watching them standing there clearly thinking WTF

[Hawk97]

This isnt a whinge but one thing I thought interesting yesterday was the ref and the offside lines. He was very clear on where he wanted the line to be but it had no relation to the law on offside. This then went out the window in the last quarter and he stopped refereeing it all together.

There was a real strange moment as well when he told off the entire English line for going offside and stopped them and then said it was ok as the ball had been lifted

And each ref has a different way of policing the offside line, some are strict and some aren't. Some (cough...Garces..) decides which team he'd like to be strict on during the game.

Our final game against SA during the tour (it was Jackson), he was VERY lenient to both sides.

Rugby reffing is f*kd right now with the inconsistencies. And that affects both teams on the day.

[Hawk97]

Metres made;

ENG - 382
WAL - 247

Kicks from hand;

WAL - 36
ENG - 24

Possession;

WAL - 55%
ENG - 45%

Clean Breaks;

ENG - 10
WAL - 4

Defenders Beaten;

ENG - 19
WAL - 10

Turnovers;

WAL - 12
ENG - 10

Penalties Conceded;

WAL - 9
ENG - 14

[DragsterDriver]

How many pens did curry concede? I’m seeing only one?

[Hawk97]

How many pens did curry concede? I’m seeing only one?

Yeah 1.

Here's full list;

Itoje - 5
Mako - 2
Faz, Ewels, Robson, May, Hill, Curry, Genge - all 1 each

[ovalball]

Metres made;

ENG - 382
WAL - 247

Kicks from hand;

WAL - 36
ENG - 24

Possession;

WAL - 55%
ENG - 45%

Clean Breaks;

ENG - 10
WAL - 4

Defenders Beaten;

ENG - 19
WAL - 10

Turnovers;

WAL - 12
ENG - 10

Penalties Conceded;

WAL - 9
ENG - 14

I'd like to see the number of knock ons and turnovers - it felt like we often made great progress only to give a way a stupid penalty, or cough up the ball, and not keep the pressure on their defence.

[4071]

Say the ref was riding itoje- calm it down and stop taking risks. Not rocket science.

And that way, you stop giving away penalties and instead concede the gainline. You hesitate, play a more restrained game and let the opposition dominate that way instead.

I think you and Fatty and others underestimate the impact of a bad ref. It's all very well to say that you can't control the ref, but you can control what you do, but in reality that's bullshit. A one-sided ref will either penalise you to defeat or force you to play your game on the back foot and lose that way.

Rugby is a sport in which the officials can - if they were so inclined - win or lose a game without even needing to make a 'wrong' decision. It's a game that is INCREDIBLY dependent on the officials. And so an official having a bad day, or getting on the wrong side of one team - however unintended - has a big impact.

It's why ref management is one of the key skills of a captain (and something that Farrell is incredibly bad at).

[Hawk97]

Say the ref was riding itoje- calm it down and stop taking risks. Not rocket science.

And that way, you stop giving away penalties and instead concede the gainline. You hesitate, play a more restrained game and let the opposition dominate that way instead.

I think you and Fatty and others underestimate the impact of a bad ref. It's all very well to say that you can't control the ref, but you can control what you do, but in reality that's bullshit. A one-sided ref will either penalise you to defeat or force you to play your game on the back foot and lose that way.

Rugby is a sport in which the officials can - if they were so inclined - win or lose a game without even needing to make a 'wrong' decision. It's a game that is INCREDIBLY dependent on the officials. And so an official having a bad day, or getting on the wrong side of one team - however unintended - has a big impact.

It's why ref management is one of the key skills of a captain (and something that Farrell is incredibly bad at).

Another recurring problem then. Lawrence pissed the refs off, as did Trundle. Borthwick was hopeless with refs. Robshaw was OK I think, now Faz.

If the reffing/discipline game is so important (I agree with you that it is), why do we not give more priority to addressing it? It has to come right up our priority list, surely? If we want to win games, we have to cut off the oppo's points fountain, which is our stupidity and not getting on with the ref's interpretations.

[Hawk97]

Can someone explain Hill and Ewels to me? Really not sure what Ewels, in particular, offers.

[ovalball]

Say the ref was riding itoje- calm it down and stop taking risks. Not rocket science.

And that way, you stop giving away penalties and instead concede the gainline. You hesitate, play a more restrained game and let the opposition dominate that way instead.

I think you and Fatty and others underestimate the impact of a bad ref. It's all very well to say that you can't control the ref, but you can control what you do, but in reality that's bullshit. A one-sided ref will either penalise you to defeat or force you to play your game on the back foot and lose that way.

Rugby is a sport in which the officials can - if they were so inclined - win or lose a game without even needing to make a 'wrong' decision. It's a game that is INCREDIBLY dependent on the officials. And so an official having a bad day, or getting on the wrong side of one team - however unintended - has a big impact.

It's why ref management is one of the key skills of a captain (and something that Farrell is incredibly bad at).

I take your point - but England are giving away more penalties than the oppo, all the time. And, many of the penalties are simply stupid - like the one Robson gave away. We could easily reduce the count by 30% just by cutting out the stupidity.

[DragsterDriver]

Say the ref was riding itoje- calm it down and stop taking risks. Not rocket science.

And that way, you stop giving away penalties and instead concede the gainline. You hesitate, play a more restrained game and let the opposition dominate that way instead.

I think you and Fatty and others underestimate the impact of a bad ref. It's all very well to say that you can't control the ref, but you can control what you do, but in reality that's bullshit. A one-sided ref will either penalise you to defeat or force you to play your game on the back foot and lose that way.

Rugby is a sport in which the officials can - if they were so inclined - win or lose a game without even needing to make a 'wrong' decision. It's a game that is INCREDIBLY dependent on the officials. And so an official having a bad day, or getting on the wrong side of one team - however unintended - has a big impact.

It's why ref management is one of the key skills of a captain (and something that Farrell is incredibly bad at).

It wouldn’t mean conceding the gain line for itoje, just not the riskier bits. A proper captain would have told him. Make your tackles and carries- play straight.

None of this excuses the ref and TMO of course.

[Hawk97]

We were screaming for players like Curry and Itoje for years, as we watched every other team have good poachers. I can excuse a lot of their penalties, given how disruptive they are. But 5 pens in a game from one player...can't happen. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.

[mr flaps]

Can someone explain Hill and Ewels to me? Really not sure what Ewels, in particular, offers.

Hill will come good, Ewels is a mystery though.

[mr flaps]

We were screaming for players like Curry and Itoje for years, as we watched every other team have good poachers. I can excuse a lot of their penalties, given how disruptive they are. But 5 pens in a game from one player...can't happen. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.

3 of them weren’t pens. Stripping a ball is not a deliberate knock on. He’s not going to ignore a ball that’s obviously out and the second strip was legal.
The line out pen was also debatable as nothing had formed when he latched onto the ball carrier.

[Hawk97]

Can someone explain Hill and Ewels to me? Really not sure what Ewels, in particular, offers.

Hill will come good, Ewels is a mystery though.

Aside from being a part of the Exeter machine (where I argue it's about the collective anyway) what does he do to separate himself from the likes of Lawes or Launch or Attwood etc?

[Hawk97]

We were screaming for players like Curry and Itoje for years, as we watched every other team have good poachers. I can excuse a lot of their penalties, given how disruptive they are. But 5 pens in a game from one player...can't happen. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.

3 of them weren’t pens. Stripping a ball is not a deliberate knock on. He’s not going to ignore a ball that’s obviously out and the second strip was legal.
The line out pen was also debatable as nothing had formed when he latched onto the ball carrier.

Ref had a shocker. An absolute shocker. 5 pens in a game though, you just can't carry it. I'm hoping it never happens again, but apparently he's up to 10 in 3 games now.

[ovalball]

We were screaming for players like Curry and Itoje for years, as we watched every other team have good poachers. I can excuse a lot of their penalties, given how disruptive they are. But 5 pens in a game from one player...can't happen. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.

3 of them weren’t pens. Stripping a ball is not a deliberate knock on. He’s not going to ignore a ball that’s obviously out and the second strip was legal.
The line out pen was also debatable as nothing had formed when he latched onto the ball carrier.

Doesn't explain why we nearly always concede more penalties than our opposition. If it was just this one game, we could put it down to the rub of the green with the ref - but that argument just doesn't wash when we are serial offenders - and when we keep giving up really dumb penalties.

The players, as a whole, just don't seem to learn.

[Hawk97]

We were screaming for players like Curry and Itoje for years, as we watched every other team have good poachers. I can excuse a lot of their penalties, given how disruptive they are. But 5 pens in a game from one player...can't happen. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.

3 of them weren’t pens. Stripping a ball is not a deliberate knock on. He’s not going to ignore a ball that’s obviously out and the second strip was legal.
The line out pen was also debatable as nothing had formed when he latched onto the ball carrier.

Doesn't explain why we nearly always concede more penalties than our opposition. If it was just this one game, we could put it down to the rub of the green with the ref - but that argument just doesn't wash when we are serial offenders - and when we keep giving up really dumb penalties.

The players, as a whole, just don't seem to learn.

Yep. Last time we didn't lose the penalty count was the Scotland game in Edinburgh.

That would have been another loss had we done so, given the style of play from both

[ovalball]

Can someone explain Hill and Ewels to me? Really not sure what Ewels, in particular, offers.

Hill will come good, Ewels is a mystery though.

Aside from being a part of the Exeter machine (where I argue it's about the collective anyway) what does he do to separate himself from the likes of Lawes or Launch or Attwood etc?

I don't think he'd be there if Lawes and Launch were available. They're a long way ahead of him atm.

I haven't been very impressed with him in an ENgland shirt - but I wouldn't give up on him quite yet.

[Hawk97]

Can someone explain Hill and Ewels to me? Really not sure what Ewels, in particular, offers.

Hill will come good, Ewels is a mystery though.

Aside from being a part of the Exeter machine (where I argue it's about the collective anyway) what does he do to separate himself from the likes of Lawes or Launch or Attwood etc?

I don't think he'd be there if Lawes and Launch were available. They're a long way ahead of him atm.

I haven't been very impressed with him in an ENgland shirt - but I wouldn't give up on him quite yet.

I hope you're right about Launch, but Lawes and Hill are in the squad and both played the last game didn't they?

[ovalball]

Can someone explain Hill and Ewels to me? Really not sure what Ewels, in particular, offers.

Hill will come good, Ewels is a mystery though.

Aside from being a part of the Exeter machine (where I argue it's about the collective anyway) what does he do to separate himself from the likes of Lawes or Launch or Attwood etc?

I don't think he'd be there if Lawes and Launch were available. They're a long way ahead of him atm.

I haven't been very impressed with him in an ENgland shirt - but I wouldn't give up on him quite yet.

I hope you're right about Launch, but Lawes and Hill are in the squad and both played the last game didn't they?

Yes - but that was partly due to a couple of injuries in the back row as well as Launch being out

[Hawk97]

On Spencer;

“I’ve had a couple of conversations with Eddie and he has given me a few areas to work on,” Spencer revealed.

“One was to be more vocal and organise the pack and I’ve tried to put that into practice as much as possible.

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... ular-no-9/


So...where is he, Eddie? He's surely worked on that by now

[4071]

Can someone explain Hill and Ewels to me? Really not sure what Ewels, in particular, offers.

Hill will come good, Ewels is a mystery though.

Aside from being a part of the Exeter machine (where I argue it's about the collective anyway) what does he do to separate himself from the likes of Lawes or Launch or Attwood etc?

Well, for a start he's not injured...

[4071]

We were screaming for players like Curry and Itoje for years, as we watched every other team have good poachers. I can excuse a lot of their penalties, given how disruptive they are. But 5 pens in a game from one player...can't happen. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.

3 of them weren’t pens. Stripping a ball is not a deliberate knock on. He’s not going to ignore a ball that’s obviously out and the second strip was legal.
The line out pen was also debatable as nothing had formed when he latched onto the ball carrier.

Ref had a shocker. An absolute shocker. 5 pens in a game though, you just can't carry it. I'm hoping it never happens again, but apparently he's up to 10 in 3 games now.

5 in 2 is just about acceptable for someone who causes as much havoc to the opposition as he does. It's a decent enough trade off. And - as pointed out earlier - several of the penalties against Wales were... um... inventive interpretations from Gauzerre.

As long as this was a one-off, then it's still not a problem. We won't see reffing quite like that again. At least not until next time we play Wales.

[Hawk97]

We were screaming for players like Curry and Itoje for years, as we watched every other team have good poachers. I can excuse a lot of their penalties, given how disruptive they are. But 5 pens in a game from one player...can't happen. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.

3 of them weren’t pens. Stripping a ball is not a deliberate knock on. He’s not going to ignore a ball that’s obviously out and the second strip was legal.
The line out pen was also debatable as nothing had formed when he latched onto the ball carrier.

Ref had a shocker. An absolute shocker. 5 pens in a game though, you just can't carry it. I'm hoping it never happens again, but apparently he's up to 10 in 3 games now.

5 in 2 is just about acceptable for someone who causes as much havoc to the opposition as he does. It's a decent enough trade off. And - as pointed out earlier - several of the penalties against Wales were... um... inventive interpretations from Gauzerre.

As long as this was a one-off, then it's still not a problem. We won't see reffing quite like that again. At least not until next time we play Wales.

100%.

[Hawk97]

Who would you rather have a 8, Dombrandt or Simmonds?

Simmonds for me. Just the carrying and suddenness would shock a lot of defences. I don't know as much about Alex though.

[ovalball]

Who would you rather have a 8, Dombrandt or Simmonds?

Simmonds for me. Just the carrying and suddenness would shock a lot of defences. I don't know as much about Alex though.

I think Simmonds would add more to the team dynamic but I'd have no problem with Dombrandt either. Mercer would also be a decent choice - just not sure he's quite as reliable. All acedemic though because Eddie will pick Billy again.

[DragsterDriver]

Who would you rather have a 8, Dombrandt or Simmonds?

Simmonds for me. Just the carrying and suddenness would shock a lot of defences. I don't know as much about Alex though.

Don Brand at 8, Simmonds at 6. Leave Wilson curling dumbbells.

[Rowdy]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

[ovalball]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

You can understand his thinking - especially with no Manu. But he was playing Curry there, when Billy was last injured - and that seemed to work ok, despite him not being an experienced 8. Can't remember if Manu was playing at that time - I think he was. Either way, there's no point in playing a big lump that isn't playing well and doesn't trouble defences (albeit he was a bit better v Wales).