**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

[Hawk97]

Who would you rather have a 8, Dombrandt or Simmonds?

Simmonds for me. Just the carrying and suddenness would shock a lot of defences. I don't know as much about Alex though.

Don Brand at 8, Simmonds at 6. Leave Wilson curling dumbbells.

At least he didn't give a pen away. Some in here said he was smarter, they were spot on.

[Hawk97]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

You can understand his thinking - especially with no Manu. But he was playing Curry there, when Billy was last injured - and that seemed to work ok, despite him not being an experienced 8. Can't remember if Manu was playing at that time - I think he was. Either way, there's no point in playing a big lump that isn't playing well and doesn't trouble defences (albeit he was a bit better v Wales).

He was. 2020 6N;

VS Wales - 6. Lawes, 7. Wilson, 8. Curry...13. Manu
Vs Ireland - 6. Lawes, 7. Underhill, 8. Curry....13. Manu

I can't remember how he went in his first chance with England, I do seem to remember thinking he (Simmonds) was too small. But he's different now, he's a strong carrier, and he's the fecking European player of the year. It's like Poland leaving Lewandowski out.

[Gospel]

Didn't see the game. Feel good about it.

[S Club]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

He played Curry at 8, though ..

[Hawk97]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

He played Curry at 8, though ..

He was saying maybe he feels he can go away from playing a lump at 8 if he has Manu in the team. When Manu isn't there, it's an automatic fatty selection

[Anonymous 1]

The words of England boss Eddie Jones on the 3 November, 2019, as he picked through the wreckage of the World Cup final defeat by South Africa.

Jones repeated that mantra a few months later after signing a new contract to take the team through to the World Cup in France in 2023.

"I don't think this group can have another World Cup in them," he told the BBC after putting pen to paper in April 2020.

So, 16 months on from the World Cup, how much has actually changed?

New players have come through, of course, with Jones capping a whopping 11 rookies since the tournament in Japan.

But the starting XV that lost to Wales last weekend included 12 of the 15 that started the World Cup final; if Sam Underhill, Courtney Lawes and Manu Tuilagi had been fit, Jones could have picked the exact same side.

I don't believe England have once started with a new 9,10 or 15 since the world cup. I believe only South Africa can match that.

[mr flaps]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

England’s best performances often come when Mako and Sinkler are tipping ball on and off loading. Throw Dombandt into that mix and it will be very hard to defend.

[Hawk97]

Had the 2019 Ireland game on in the background 'working' from home today.

Even that game, where everyone probably assumes we were peak - we gave 4 ridiculous penalties away in the first 20 mins.

Curry has a second bite in a ruck, Curry takes out Earls late and is yellow carded, Itoje jumps into Earls for a pressure relieving penalty, George picks a ball up offside.

It's this team's nature.

[ovalball]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

England’s best performances often come when Mako and Sinkler are tipping ball on and off loading. Throw Dombandt into that mix and it will be very hard to defend.

Yep - we seem to have lost that edge recently - far less off loading happening. Mako/Sinks and George haven't found their form of 12 months ago - Still a decent front row but not quite providing that point of difference they were giving us. Perhaps it's another consequence of not having the wrecking ball that is Manu - perhaps he creates more opportunities and space for them.

With Billy so out of form, Underhill, Willis and Lawes injured - it'd be an ideal time to have a look at what Simmonds and Dombrandt can offer (at 8 or 6). It's not as if they are some callow youths without experience.

I also wonder WTF Eddie is doing with Odogwu. Hasn't played a single minute in the 6N and hasn't been released back to his club either - so hasn't played since Jan. He either need to play him or send him back to Wasps. I'd like to see what he could do at 12 for England.

[Anonymous 1]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

England’s best performances often come when Mako and Sinkler are tipping ball on and off loading. Throw Dombandt into that mix and it will be very hard to defend.

Yep - we seem to have lost that edge recently - far less off loading happening. Mako/Sinks and George haven't found their form of 12 months ago - Still a decent front row but not quite providing that point of difference they were giving us. Perhaps it's another consequence of not having the wrecking ball that is Manu - perhaps he creates more opportunities and space for them.

With Billy so out of form, Underhill, Willis and Lawes injured - it'd be an ideal time to have a look at what Simmonds and Dombrandt can offer (at 8 or 6). It's not as if they are some callow youths without experience.

I also wonder WTF Eddie is doing with Odogwu. Hasn't played a single minute in the 6N and hasn't been released back to his club either - so hasn't played since Jan. He either need to play him or send him back to Wasps. I'd like to see what he could do at 12 for England.

Fucking Wasps up the arse

[mr flaps]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

England’s best performances often come when Mako and Sinkler are tipping ball on and off loading. Throw Dombandt into that mix and it will be very hard to defend.

Yep - we seem to have lost that edge recently - far less off loading happening. Mako/Sinks and George haven't found their form of 12 months ago - Still a decent front row but not quite providing that point of difference they were giving us. Perhaps it's another consequence of not having the wrecking ball that is Manu - perhaps he creates more opportunities and space for them.

With Billy so out of form, Underhill, Willis and Lawes injured - it'd be an ideal time to have a look at what Simmonds and Dombrandt can offer (at 8 or 6). It's not as if they are some callow youths without experience.

I also wonder WTF Eddie is doing with Odogwu. Hasn't played a single minute in the 6N and hasn't been released back to his club either - so hasn't played since Jan. He either need to play him or send him back to Wasps. I'd like to see what he could do at 12 for England.

He’d be great at 12.

[DragsterDriver]

He’d be Kyle eastmond?

[ovalball]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

England’s best performances often come when Mako and Sinkler are tipping ball on and off loading. Throw Dombandt into that mix and it will be very hard to defend.

Yep - we seem to have lost that edge recently - far less off loading happening. Mako/Sinks and George haven't found their form of 12 months ago - Still a decent front row but not quite providing that point of difference they were giving us. Perhaps it's another consequence of not having the wrecking ball that is Manu - perhaps he creates more opportunities and space for them.

With Billy so out of form, Underhill, Willis and Lawes injured - it'd be an ideal time to have a look at what Simmonds and Dombrandt can offer (at 8 or 6). It's not as if they are some callow youths without experience.

I also wonder WTF Eddie is doing with Odogwu. Hasn't played a single minute in the 6N and hasn't been released back to his club either - so hasn't played since Jan. He either need to play him or send him back to Wasps. I'd like to see what he could do at 12 for England.

He’d be great at 12.

And Slade would also benefit from Having a genuine running threat at 12. All wishful thinking though because Eddie is married to having Farrell in the side - and he will also persist with a 6/2 bench which leaves very little opportunity for Odogwu, even from the bench.

[Anonymous 1]

He’d be Kyle eastmond?

Two inches taller and two stone heavier but similar colour. Anyway the word is in training they can't get him to stop passing the ball. So no debut.

[mr flaps]

He’d be Kyle eastmond?

No. Eastmond had fantastic handling skill as a second play maker. I see Paolo as a carrying threat. His passing game actually looks a bit shite, but if we have a 13 like Slade it won’t be an issue.

[DragsterDriver]

Ollie lawrence?

I don't think we pass to ball carrying centres as a rule.

[DragsterDriver]

Anyway, i hope he doesn't get capped and opts for Italy. Better choice.

[Anonymous 1]

Ollie lawrence?

I don't think we pass to ball carrying centres as a rule.

Eddie Jones kept talking him up as a replacement for Manu. That was strange because he is a footballing centre who looks to avoid contact ball in hand and has a good kicking game. Makes you wonder
ollie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmesySLkdXs

manu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_sRZKZK4U

[DragsterDriver]

Ollie lawrence?

I don't think we pass to ball carrying centres as a rule.

Eddie Jones kept talking him up as a replacement for Manu. That was strange because he is a footballing centre who looks to avoid contact ball in hand and has a good kicking game. Makes you wonder
ollie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmesySLkdXs

manu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_sRZKZK4U

He hits a nice line at pace.

I just don’t know what England want now, think Eddie has disappeared up his own arse. I’m Not fussed watching Faz carry like Borthwick and the backline kicking everything away. Eye AIDS.

[Hawk97]

I think Eddie's idea of a number 8 is a big lump. Simmons and Dombrandt may be too athletic.

England’s best performances often come when Mako and Sinkler are tipping ball on and off loading. Throw Dombandt into that mix and it will be very hard to defend.

Yep - we seem to have lost that edge recently - far less off loading happening. Mako/Sinks and George haven't found their form of 12 months ago - Still a decent front row but not quite providing that point of difference they were giving us. Perhaps it's another consequence of not having the wrecking ball that is Manu - perhaps he creates more opportunities and space for them.

With Billy so out of form, Underhill, Willis and Lawes injured - it'd be an ideal time to have a look at what Simmonds and Dombrandt can offer (at 8 or 6). It's not as if they are some callow youths without experience.

I also wonder WTF Eddie is doing with Odogwu. Hasn't played a single minute in the 6N and hasn't been released back to his club either - so hasn't played since Jan. He either need to play him or send him back to Wasps. I'd like to see what he could do at 12 for England.

He’d be great at 12.

And Slade would also benefit from Having a genuine running threat at 12. All wishful thinking though because Eddie is married to having Farrell in the side - and he will also persist with a 6/2 bench which leaves very little opportunity for Odogwu, even from the bench.

The Italy game was the time to try him. LCD starting was as adventurous as he got though

[Hawk97]

Ollie lawrence?

I don't think we pass to ball carrying centres as a rule.

Eddie Jones kept talking him up as a replacement for Manu. That was strange because he is a footballing centre who looks to avoid contact ball in hand and has a good kicking game. Makes you wonder
ollie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmesySLkdXs

manu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_sRZKZK4U

I think we need to get over this 'Manu replacement' thing. There is no replacement to him. No one in that position in the world can do what he does, let alone in Worcester or Coventry.

The only bright spot is that when Manu plays, Farrell goes to 10. At least this way we get a genuine fly half on the field that can bring people in. Ford, Manu and Slade would be ideal for me, but he's never dropping Fazzle.

[Anonymous 1]

Ollie lawrence?

I don't think we pass to ball carrying centres as a rule.

Eddie Jones kept talking him up as a replacement for Manu. That was strange because he is a footballing centre who looks to avoid contact ball in hand and has a good kicking game. Makes you wonder
ollie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmesySLkdXs

manu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_sRZKZK4U

I think we need to get over this 'Manu replacement' thing. There is no replacement to him. No one in that position in the world can do what he does, let alone in Worcester or Coventry.

The only bright spot is that when Manu plays, Farrell goes to 10. At least this way we get a genuine fly half on the field that can bring people in. Ford, Manu and Slade would be ideal for me, but he's never dropping Fazzle.

We dont need to get over it. Eddie Jones needs to get over it.

[DragsterDriver]

With the ability of modern defenders you rarely run over them
Any longer. Billy gets chopped on the spot.

[Hawk97]

With the ability of modern defenders you rarely run over them
Any longer. Billy gets chopped on the spot.

Need to bring the offloads back in. We'd soon get defenders going on high on our carriers if they started offloaded again. Argh! How have we fallen back to 2018?!

[eldanielfire]

Mike Brown is even more miserable than normal:

[piquant]

With the ability of modern defenders you rarely run over them
Any longer. Billy gets chopped on the spot.

Need to bring the offloads back in. We'd soon get defenders going on high on our carriers if they started offloaded again. Argh! How have we fallen back to 2018?!

There could be something in this, but there's little to no point worry about it before sorting the discipline out and seeing where that leaves us. England looked okay on attack when not giving away penalties

[Anonymous 1]

With the ability of modern defenders you rarely run over them
Any longer. Billy gets chopped on the spot.

Need to bring the offloads back in. We'd soon get defenders going on high on our carriers if they started offloaded again. Argh! How have we fallen back to 2018?!

There could be something in this, but there's little to no point worry about it before sorting the discipline out and seeing where that leaves us. England looked okay on attack when not giving away penalties

Itoje sort out lineout infringements. The rest of it I have no problem and feel he was unlucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40

[Hawk97]

With the ability of modern defenders you rarely run over them
Any longer. Billy gets chopped on the spot.

Need to bring the offloads back in. We'd soon get defenders going on high on our carriers if they started offloaded again. Argh! How have we fallen back to 2018?!

There could be something in this, but there's little to no point worry about it before sorting the discipline out and seeing where that leaves us. England looked okay on attack when not giving away penalties

Itoje sort out lineout infringements. The rest of it I have no problem and feel he was unlucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40

How was the offside call ever offside? SH has the ball in his hands and has taken a step...it's not even good timing from itoje. It just a tackle....

[Magpie26]

With the ability of modern defenders you rarely run over them
Any longer. Billy gets chopped on the spot.

Need to bring the offloads back in. We'd soon get defenders going on high on our carriers if they started offloaded again. Argh! How have we fallen back to 2018?!

There could be something in this, but there's little to no point worry about it before sorting the discipline out and seeing where that leaves us. England looked okay on attack when not giving away penalties

Itoje sort out lineout infringements. The rest of it I have no problem and feel he was unlucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40

How was the offside call ever offside? SH has the ball in his hands and has taken a step...it's not even good timing from itoje. It just a tackle....

I think he just did not retreat far enough. Probably the issue is there is a Welsh player and an English player stretched out, taking the offside line back quite a way.

[Anonymous 1]

Need to bring the offloads back in. We'd soon get defenders going on high on our carriers if they started offloaded again. Argh! How have we fallen back to 2018?!

There could be something in this, but there's little to no point worry about it before sorting the discipline out and seeing where that leaves us. England looked okay on attack when not giving away penalties

Itoje sort out lineout infringements. The rest of it I have no problem and feel he was unlucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40

How was the offside call ever offside? SH has the ball in his hands and has taken a step...it's not even good timing from itoje. It just a tackle....

I think he just did not retreat far enough. ProbTably the issue is there is a Welsh player and an English player stretched out, taking the offside line back quite a way.

The issue is they had decided to go after itoje

[45jumper]

As recently mentioned in the thread, can anyone remember anything that Ewels has done in an England shirt? He's got around 20 caps and I literally can't remember a single thing.
What's his point of difference supposed to be?

[Short Man Syndrome]

I don't buy into the Simmonds hype - he had some eye-catching performances running against very tired and beaten teams (finishing as top try-scorer was very impressive, mind) and it made sense to give the Euro player of the year award to an Exeter player, but there were two or three worthy candidates in that side. It probably speaks more about the competition England have at 8 these days but I like Ben Earl more than Simmonds - and perhaps I'd choose Dombrandt over both of them. I just don't see how Simmonds would flourish at international level where he would not enjoy the same flat tracks.

[Magpie26]

There could be something in this, but there's little to no point worry about it before sorting the discipline out and seeing where that leaves us. England looked okay on attack when not giving away penalties

Itoje sort out lineout infringements. The rest of it I have no problem and feel he was unlucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40

How was the offside call ever offside? SH has the ball in his hands and has taken a step...it's not even good timing from itoje. It just a tackle....

I think he just did not retreat far enough. ProbTably the issue is there is a Welsh player and an English player stretched out, taking the offside line back quite a way.

The issue is they had decided to go after itoje

Did they? I think most of the penalties were pretty clear cut, especially the lineout ones.
The deliberate knock on was pretty clear, he didn't make any attempt to grasp the ball, just sort of slapped at it.
Perhaps a bit unlucky for the rip in the tackle but that's about it.
He seems a bit frustrated at the moment and is pushing things constantly to the edge and is getting caught out.
Too many penalties and I can't remember the last time he won a lineout from the opposition.

[Anonymous 1]

I don't buy into the Simmonds hype - he had some eye-catching performances running against very tired and beaten teams (finishing as top try-scorer was very impressive, mind) and it made sense to give the Euro player of the year award to an Exeter player, but there were two or three worthy candidates in that side. It probably speaks more about the competition England have at 8 these days but I like Ben Earl more than Simmonds - and perhaps I'd choose Dombrandt over both of them. I just don't see how Simmonds would flourish at international level where he would not enjoy the same flat tracks.

I dont see the point of Simmonds and earl and Eddie clearly prefers earls. It's pathetic he is determined not to bring in a specialist like Dombrandt or Hughes if Billy is not available yet expect England to plaly the same way. Add that he won't start anyone new at 15,9 or 10 and we are in limbo

[Anonymous 1]

Itoje sort out lineout infringements. The rest of it I have no problem and feel he was unlucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40

How was the offside call ever offside? SH has the ball in his hands and has taken a step...it's not even good timing from itoje. It just a tackle....

I think he just did not retreat far enough. ProbTably the issue is there is a Welsh player and an English player stretched out, taking the offside line back quite a way.

The issue is they had decided to go after itoje

Did they? I think most of the penalties were pretty clear cut, especially the lineout ones.
The deliberate knock on was pretty clear, he didn't make any attempt to grasp the ball, just sort of slapped at it.
Perhaps a bit unlucky for the rip in the tackle but that's about it.
He seems a bit frustrated at the moment and is pushing things constantly to the edge and is getting caught out.
Too many penalties and I can't remember the last time he won a lineout from the opposition.

The deliberate knock on wasn't clear. It's not even clear he got the ball and not the arm. It looks at full speed and in capture like he got the arm.

[Hawk97]

As recently mentioned in the thread, can anyone remember anything that Ewels has done in an England shirt? He's got around 20 caps and I literally can't remember a single thing.
What's his point of difference supposed to be?

So when I posted the question, the answer I had in my mind was 'nothing'. He brings nothing special like Itoje, Launch and Kruis do/did. Then I've watched the latest behind the scenes thing on England Rugby's youtube and it seems like Ewels is a lineout director/specialist. Another bloody one of those.

Empty shirt, but he's clever with the lineout

[Hawk97]

I don't buy into the Simmonds hype - he had some eye-catching performances running against very tired and beaten teams (finishing as top try-scorer was very impressive, mind) and it made sense to give the Euro player of the year award to an Exeter player, but there were two or three worthy candidates in that side. It probably speaks more about the competition England have at 8 these days but I like Ben Earl more than Simmonds - and perhaps I'd choose Dombrandt over both of them. I just don't see how Simmonds would flourish at international level where he would not enjoy the same flat tracks.

It's a fair point, and I don't remember him standing out in his first go at international rugby a few years ago. But with Billy V not in form, isn't it worth just trying him out again? If he's 3/4 as effective as he is for Exeter, we've got a player.

[Magpie26]

How was the offside call ever offside? SH has the ball in his hands and has taken a step...it's not even good timing from itoje. It just a tackle....

I think he just did not retreat far enough. ProbTably the issue is there is a Welsh player and an English player stretched out, taking the offside line back quite a way.

The issue is they had decided to go after itoje

Did they? I think most of the penalties were pretty clear cut, especially the lineout ones.
The deliberate knock on was pretty clear, he didn't make any attempt to grasp the ball, just sort of slapped at it.
Perhaps a bit unlucky for the rip in the tackle but that's about it.
He seems a bit frustrated at the moment and is pushing things constantly to the edge and is getting caught out.
Too many penalties and I can't remember the last time he won a lineout from the opposition.

The deliberate knock on wasn't clear. It's not even clear he got the ball and not the arm. It looks at full speed and in capture like he got the arm.

It looks to me in the video he got to the ball but even if its not clear what he contacted, what is clear is that he is only making a forward motion so if the ref / touchie believe they saw contact to the ball, its only ever going to be seen as a deliberate act.

[piquant]

I don't buy into the Simmonds hype - he had some eye-catching performances running against very tired and beaten teams (finishing as top try-scorer was very impressive, mind) and it made sense to give the Euro player of the year award to an Exeter player, but there were two or three worthy candidates in that side. It probably speaks more about the competition England have at 8 these days but I like Ben Earl more than Simmonds - and perhaps I'd choose Dombrandt over both of them. I just don't see how Simmonds would flourish at international level where he would not enjoy the same flat tracks.

It's a fair point, and I don't remember him standing out in his first go at international rugby a few years ago. But with Billy V not in form, isn't it worth just trying him out again? If he's 3/4 as effective as he is for Exeter, we've got a player.

If he's 3/4 the player he is for Exeter at the much higher level of test rugby we've got a problem more than a player.

[Short Man Syndrome]

I don't buy into the Simmonds hype - he had some eye-catching performances running against very tired and beaten teams (finishing as top try-scorer was very impressive, mind) and it made sense to give the Euro player of the year award to an Exeter player, but there were two or three worthy candidates in that side. It probably speaks more about the competition England have at 8 these days but I like Ben Earl more than Simmonds - and perhaps I'd choose Dombrandt over both of them. I just don't see how Simmonds would flourish at international level where he would not enjoy the same flat tracks.

It's a fair point, and I don't remember him standing out in his first go at international rugby a few years ago. But with Billy V not in form, isn't it worth just trying him out again? If he's 3/4 as effective as he is for Exeter, we've got a player.

Yes - and you could also build an argument around the efficacy of having a core of players from the same club side, Simmonds would no doubt be right at home amongst his Exeter buddies in the pack. I can understand how Eddie might just want a bulldozer at 8, though. And - not being a coach - I can only guess at how much of a pain in the arse it might be to re-drill an international team to a different game plan. Eddie probably sees the best way to use a Simmonds or an Earl at 8, and he probably knows it would take weeks of re-structuring, drilling, practice, etc. before it was second nature to the side. Billy would probably be back in form by then...