**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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piquant
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

What is a form player, how does a form pick at the point of EPS selection necessarily hold through to and during the 6N, through a summer tour, through the AIs?

Or when you say you want to pick form players, who often will not be as good as the incumbent, do you envisage replacing or simply binning the EPS?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by 4071 »

MrDominator wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:54 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm The one that consistently plays better at club and international rugby, please. So Ford.
Ballsy shout given their respective club trophies won in the last five years
Because rugby is notoriously a one man game.
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MrDominator
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by MrDominator »

4071 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:23 am
MrDominator wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:54 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm The one that consistently plays better at club and international rugby, please. So Ford.
Ballsy shout given their respective club trophies won in the last five years
Because rugby is notoriously a one man game.
This might come as a shock, but coaches tend to pick the guys whose teams win most often.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

MrDominator wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:53 am
4071 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:23 am
MrDominator wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:54 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm The one that consistently plays better at club and international rugby, please. So Ford.
Ballsy shout given their respective club trophies won in the last five years
Because rugby is notoriously a one man game.
This might come as a shock, but coaches tend to pick the guys whose teams win most often.
So why isnt Joe Simmonds starting?
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MrDominator
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by MrDominator »

Quins89 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:58 am
MrDominator wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:53 am
4071 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:23 am
MrDominator wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:54 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm The one that consistently plays better at club and international rugby, please. So Ford.
Ballsy shout given their respective club trophies won in the last five years
Because rugby is notoriously a one man game.
This might come as a shock, but coaches tend to pick the guys whose teams win most often.
So why isnt Joe Simmonds starting?
I said 'tend to' - not 'always do'.

There's a reason the squad isn't full of Worcester and London Irish players.

There's also a reason why every England coach has preferred Farrell to Ford.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

MrDominator wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:00 am

There's also a reason why every England coach has preferred Farrell to Ford.

There is even if one thinks Ford a much better player, and I do, it'd be daft to dismiss all the intensity and attitude Farrell brings on and off the park. We might want to as fans and just pick our 'best' XV or XXIII but nobody in rugby thinks what Farrell offers isn't massively important.

It might have been fairer to say Ford is a much better 10 than player, because I would concede Farrell as being the better 12
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:39 am What is a form player, how does a form pick at the point of EPS selection necessarily hold through to and during the 6N, through a summer tour, through the AIs?

Or when you say you want to pick form players, who often will not be as good as the incumbent, do you envisage replacing or simply binning the EPS?
Has Eddie brought in players that weren’t in the EPS?

George Martin?
Odogwu?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:42 am
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:39 am What is a form player, how does a form pick at the point of EPS selection necessarily hold through to and during the 6N, through a summer tour, through the AIs?

Or when you say you want to pick form players, who often will not be as good as the incumbent, do you envisage replacing or simply binning the EPS?
Has Eddie brought in players that weren’t in the EPS?

George Martin?
Odogwu?

He's capped 11 new players since the WC, not sure how many he's included just in the EPS. And I'm not saying he should bring people in from outside the EPS, I'm more wondering how does picking form players, whatever that means, fit alongside having the EPS?

I would think of the 11 new players he's picked you could make, or have made, a form argument for all of them.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by inactionman »

I frequently see Eddie's beautiful visage on the TV at most of the AP games - he's a bloody hard worker, I'll give him that - but I'd assume he's also got a set of scouts keeping tabs occurs the league (and presumably beyond, for the flying poach). I'm wondering what steer they give to/get from Eddie - what he wants to see, what would make him bring them into an England spot.

He picked and dropped both Roko and JC2 (JC2 injured anyway) as he was apparently concerned by aspects of defensive discipline - in JC2's case in particular, with some justification. Assume Eddie and the scouts (great boyband) are looking for any sign of improvement on that front, my query would be whether the player knows specifically what they're being judged on and what they need to demonstrate as improvement - it's one thing to be in the England camp and work on the aspects Eddie isn't happy with, another to try to figure what he's looking for and play to it within a completely different team/tactical/coaching structure. I think Rob Baxter would be a bit miffed with Simmonds if he tried to bosh it up like Billy as that's what Eddie wants to see.

In general, what is it that Eddie, or his coaches, need to see before picking someone? I'm still nonplussed about Spencer not getting a look-in as he's apparently too quiet. Is that it? Shout a bit more and you're in?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by 4071 »

MrDominator wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:53 am
4071 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:23 am
MrDominator wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:54 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm The one that consistently plays better at club and international rugby, please. So Ford.
Ballsy shout given their respective club trophies won in the last five years
Because rugby is notoriously a one man game.
This might come as a shock, but coaches tend to pick the guys whose teams win most often.
Jackson Wray for England!
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Maybe Simmonds doesn't bosh in the same way as Billy, but Eddie will note things like his leg drive through contact, and no way is Baxter going to complain about leg drive through contact. Everyone will notice leg drive with Barbeary, Eddie will be picking up on all players he's looking at how that works at much less visual impact, given who's making the tackle, what the build up to the tackle was and the decision making with the ball once in contact.

And Eddie is going to be very keen on work off the ball, fans partly because we're drawn to watching the ball, but also that's more what TV shows, tend not to notice the off the ball work, oftentimes you couldn't notice it on TV if you tried. If you make the off the ball work that will interest Eddie, and you're still having those big moments on the ball that will grab his attention, if you just manage off the ball work or big moments on the ball not so much.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

And yes Eddie is massive on communication at 9 and 10. Possibly at 12 too.

Go ask Quade Cooper about how bad things get if you don't talk enough on the pitch for Eddie, he's got some great stories about being left doing contact work with the props until he started talking enough. That was in club, at test level Eddie doesn't have to even pick you to begin with
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Monk Zombie »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:08 pm And yes Eddie is massive on communication at 9 and 10. Possibly at 12 too.

Go ask Quade Cooper about how bad things get if you don't talk enough on the pitch for Eddie, he's got some great stories about being left doing contact work with the props until he started talking enough. That was in club, at test level Eddie doesn't have to even pick you to begin with
now how sensible can one get?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Monk Zombie wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:15 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:08 pm And yes Eddie is massive on communication at 9 and 10. Possibly at 12 too.

Go ask Quade Cooper about how bad things get if you don't talk enough on the pitch for Eddie, he's got some great stories about being left doing contact work with the props until he started talking enough. That was in club, at test level Eddie doesn't have to even pick you to begin with
now how sensible can one get?

Yes. Though in the event the very young Quade started talking pretty damn quickly, and the exact same thing happened with Genia.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Monk Zombie »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:18 pm
Monk Zombie wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:15 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:08 pm And yes Eddie is massive on communication at 9 and 10. Possibly at 12 too.

Go ask Quade Cooper about how bad things get if you don't talk enough on the pitch for Eddie, he's got some great stories about being left doing contact work with the props until he started talking enough. That was in club, at test level Eddie doesn't have to even pick you to begin with
now how sensible can one get?

Yes. Though in the event the very young Quade started talking pretty damn quickly, and the exact same thing happened with Genia.
:nod:

a couple of smacks about the head would probably have had the same effect
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by inactionman »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:08 pm And yes Eddie is massive on communication at 9 and 10. Possibly at 12 too.

Go ask Quade Cooper about how bad things get if you don't talk enough on the pitch for Eddie, he's got some great stories about being left doing contact work with the props until he started talking enough. That was in club, at test level Eddie doesn't have to even pick you to begin with
I'm inferring a bit, but what you're effectively saying is that Ben Youngs never shuts up?

I knew there was a reason
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

inactionman wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:13 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:08 pm And yes Eddie is massive on communication at 9 and 10. Possibly at 12 too.

Go ask Quade Cooper about how bad things get if you don't talk enough on the pitch for Eddie, he's got some great stories about being left doing contact work with the props until he started talking enough. That was in club, at test level Eddie doesn't have to even pick you to begin with
I'm inferring a bit, but what you're effectively saying is that Ben Youngs never shuts up?

I knew there was a reason
Actually I don't know if that's quite the case. But he's clearly doing enough chat with the forwards at least to keep Eddie happy. I've never seen Youngs in a quiet enough ground to know if his chat is incessant

History says it's a key issue for Eddie. He was possibly spoiled with Gregan
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Also Youngs has just come through the 6N as probably the best 9 in this season's event. He really is a very good player.

Sure England have struggled at times, but that's not come down to Youngs
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:36 pm Also Youngs has just come through the 6N as probably the best 9 in this season's event. He really is a very good player.

Sure England have struggled at times, but that's not come down to Youngs
So where have we struggled Piq?

I don't think saying players have done somewhat well and we've come off a 6-11 hammering, 40-24 (regardless of scenario) hammering, 32-18 Hammering, Italy having their best game comfortably against us and winning at the death against France albeit in style a good tournament.

Penalties are a factor, but there's no way they are the sole factor. Wales and Scotland in particular haven't changed much but the scoreline and performance difference is huge. France allow you to play somewhat I get that and Ireland had a good game. But there hasn't been huge change outside of probably France yet the results have been getting worse and worse.

Any thoughts? :)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by MrDominator »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:23 am
MrDominator wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:00 am There's also a reason why every England coach has preferred Farrell to Ford.

There is even if one thinks Ford a much better player, and I do, it'd be daft to dismiss all the intensity and attitude Farrell brings on and off the park. We might want to as fans and just pick our 'best' XV or XXIII but nobody in rugby thinks what Farrell offers isn't massively important.

It might have been fairer to say Ford is a much better 10 than player, because I would concede Farrell as being the better 12
Exactly.

It's the old intangible 'Test match animal' thing.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Ben Youngs isn’t particularly vocal.

Eddie will say what he needs to justify his decisions.

Does being vocal make Daly a fullback when he can’t catch or tackle?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Quins89 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:22 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:36 pm Also Youngs has just come through the 6N as probably the best 9 in this season's event. He really is a very good player.

Sure England have struggled at times, but that's not come down to Youngs
So where have we struggled Piq?

I don't think saying players have done somewhat well and we've come off a 6-11 hammering, 40-24 (regardless of scenario) hammering, 32-18 Hammering, Italy having their best game comfortably against us and winning at the death against France albeit in style a good tournament.

Penalties are a factor, but there's no way they are the sole factor. Wales and Scotland in particular haven't changed much but the scoreline and performance difference is huge. France allow you to play somewhat I get that and Ireland had a good game. But there hasn't been huge change outside of probably France yet the results have been getting worse and worse.

Any thoughts? :)
We've struggled with discipline. Sure some of those calls could have gone for us, but some others could have gone against, and we're tipping the scales the wrong way. And sure France highlighted against Wales the problem of trying to be careful, you just lose territory and don't contest possession enough, but before anything else we've got to get the penalty count under control. Or at the very least we've got to stop the repeat infringements where we concede 2-3 in a matter of moments.

Discipline isn't just Hill piling in right in front of the ref making sure his error is noted. It's May or Farrell rolling on the floor on our ball, perhaps that's coming from pressure but their work into contact ahead of presenting the ball back isn't up to snuff.

In the main that's it, unless we get the penalties under control trying to judge the rest is just very problematic. Yes the defence didn't look as tight as we'd like, but in the main it's again penalties hurting us, and we were shifting around with who played in the front three, both in selection and injury. Penalties are over riding so much else.

And we have brought a number of new or relatively new players into the side, and so far you couldn't say there's been much return from Dunn, Willis, Earl, Hill, Ludlam, Furbank, Lawrence, Malins, Robson, Ewels, nor a few others. We need some of the new crowd to not simply have a shirt but to fill a shirt. We can, and probably will try some other new faces, whether a Smith or Simmonds or Dombrandt it'll be someone. Until 3-4 of them start delivering we just have some exposed areas of the team/squad.

And we do need to allow this has been a very weird event, perhaps with sides having slightly differing levels of controls because of Covid, and perhaps ours were more unsettling for the players. That's hit us both in the composition of the EPS with Sarries not playing, and with time in camp not going as we'd like. That's not something I'd want to assign much if any blame for, the only simple thing to have said would be don't even think about holding the event.

And yet within that some players have done well. Youngs has been one of them, Curry another, maybe Watson (just)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by MrDominator »

4071 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:00 pm
MrDominator wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:53 am
4071 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:23 am
MrDominator wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:54 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm The one that consistently plays better at club and international rugby, please. So Ford.
Ballsy shout given their respective club trophies won in the last five years
Because rugby is notoriously a one man game.
This might come as a shock, but coaches tend to pick the guys whose teams win most often.
Jackson Wray for England!
:yawn:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:37 pm Ben Youngs isn’t particularly vocal.

Eddie will say what he needs to justify his decisions.

Does being vocal make Daly a fullback when he can’t catch or tackle?

Missing tackles and catches is a fine reason not to pick Daly, or to not pick him at 15 depending on the question. But on Youngs both Youngs and Eddie can cite he played well, probably the best 9 across the tournament
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by ovalball »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:51 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:37 pm Ben Youngs isn’t particularly vocal.

Eddie will say what he needs to justify his decisions.

Does being vocal make Daly a fullback when he can’t catch or tackle?

Missing tackles and catches is a fine reason not to pick Daly, or to not pick him at 15 depending on the question. But on Youngs both Youngs and Eddie can cite he played well, probably the best 9 across the tournament
Better than Dupont.............. Nah.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Short Man Syndrome »

Are Ford and Farrell the new Lampard/Gerrard?

How annoying will England be to play against with Barbeary at 8? Answer = Very. Fvcking. Annoying.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

ovalball wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:19 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:51 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:37 pm Ben Youngs isn’t particularly vocal.

Eddie will say what he needs to justify his decisions.

Does being vocal make Daly a fullback when he can’t catch or tackle?

Missing tackles and catches is a fine reason not to pick Daly, or to not pick him at 15 depending on the question. But on Youngs both Youngs and Eddie can cite he played well, probably the best 9 across the tournament
Better than Dupont.............. Nah.
I'd agree Dupont is the better player, if I had a choice of both I'd pick Dupont. But Youngs was the better 9 in the tournament, Dupont the one with more flashy moments that just look so good, and indeed were so good.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by ovalball »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:29 pm
ovalball wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:19 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:51 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:37 pm Ben Youngs isn’t particularly vocal.

Eddie will say what he needs to justify his decisions.

Does being vocal make Daly a fullback when he can’t catch or tackle?

Missing tackles and catches is a fine reason not to pick Daly, or to not pick him at 15 depending on the question. But on Youngs both Youngs and Eddie can cite he played well, probably the best 9 across the tournament
Better than Dupont.............. Nah.
I'd agree Dupont is the better player, if I had a choice of both I'd pick Dupont. But Youngs was the better 9 in the tournament, Dupont the one with more flashy moments that just look so good, and indeed were so good.
Youngs was decent against Wales, very good v France, pretty poor against the Scots and Irish. He was better than he has been - but we're always suprised when he puts in a performance that would be a 'given' for an international SH.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Better than DuPont? You’re seriously typing that?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Sure. Dupont made some fine attacking plays, but also dicked around and kicked like a moron.

That said, it's easy for me to say he kicked like a dick, people said some very similar things about Ronnie O'Sullivan when he started playing left handed, if Dupont is doing this 2 years out from a WC with a view to being Wilkinsonesque by the time of the WC then fair enough. But as a for instance when he set up that England try dropping it onto his left boot I was fundamentally pissed off with him even before England ran it back to score, that merde shouldn't happen.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by inactionman »

inactionman wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 pm .... And cips to Bath?

Quite a change of pace to priestland, but Spencer cipriani redpath jj Watson roko/jc2/mcconichie/other 7s bloke de Glanville could prove exciting

That's if all stay, and jj gets mojo back
Confirmed

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ugby-union
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

If we assume that there will be another 2018-style clearout of players following this 6N, then who are this season's Care/Brown/Robshaw/Haskell etc

Initial thoughts are that Mark Wilson is done. Turning 32 this year and had a pretty anonymous 6Ns, obvious candidate to move on given other options at 6 with a greater upside

Jonny Hill another that is in a hyper competitive position and had a useless tournament - mostly anonymous other than penalties conceded. Ewels actually looked half decent in his two starts at the end of the tournament

Halfbacks-wise, Youngs also turns 32 this year but had an okay 6Ns given the circumstances and is hanging on only due to a lack of an alternative.

Otherwise I don't see a whole lot of room to move on elderly or below-par players like in 2018 in place of younger talent
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by inactionman »

openclashXX wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:42 pm If we assume that there will be another 2018-style clearout of players following this 6N, then who are this season's Care/Brown/Robshaw/Haskell etc

Initial thoughts are that Mark Wilson is done. Turning 32 this year and had a pretty anonymous 6Ns, obvious candidate to move on given other options at 6 with a greater upside

Jonny Hill another that is in a hyper competitive position and had a useless tournament - mostly anonymous other than penalties conceded. Ewels actually looked half decent in his two starts at the end of the tournament

Halfbacks-wise, Youngs also turns 32 this year but had an okay 6Ns given the circumstances and is hanging on only due to a lack of an alternative.

Otherwise I don't see a whole lot of room to move on elderly or below-par players like in 2018 in place of younger talent
Is Marler out of the equation now, or was latest omission just to avoid covid bubble away from family? He's definitely in if still available, but not sure if this time it's permanent. Also not sure who is next off rank.

Remind me, is Heinz still in any way involved, or did that end post WC run?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by openclashXX »

inactionman wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:55 pm
openclashXX wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:42 pm If we assume that there will be another 2018-style clearout of players following this 6N, then who are this season's Care/Brown/Robshaw/Haskell etc

Initial thoughts are that Mark Wilson is done. Turning 32 this year and had a pretty anonymous 6Ns, obvious candidate to move on given other options at 6 with a greater upside

Jonny Hill another that is in a hyper competitive position and had a useless tournament - mostly anonymous other than penalties conceded. Ewels actually looked half decent in his two starts at the end of the tournament

Halfbacks-wise, Youngs also turns 32 this year but had an okay 6Ns given the circumstances and is hanging on only due to a lack of an alternative.

Otherwise I don't see a whole lot of room to move on elderly or below-par players like in 2018 in place of younger talent
Is Marler out of the equation now, or was latest omission just to avoid covid bubble away from family? He's definitely in if still available, but not sure if this time it's permanent. Also not sure who is next off rank.

Remind me, is Heinz still in any way involved, or did that end post WC run?
Heinz was still getting caps in 2020, and being called up to camps as recently as October 2020. was ruled out with an injury for this 6N, but not clear at all that he's been moved on (but given he turns 35 this year I would be surprised if he gets a recall)

Marler would be involved for sure - only turning 31 this year as a prop, so easily another 2-3 years in him
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Marler-

I just don’t think you can bank on him as your scrummaging prop when his head’s gone and dropping out last minute.

Jonny May 30
Courtney Lawes 32
Mako Vunipola 57
George Kruis 31
Ben Youngs 31
Mark Wilson 31

The rwc is in what- 2 years?

That would make Faz 31 for example- it’s not a young squad.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by ovalball »

openclashXX wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:42 pm If we assume that there will be another 2018-style clearout of players following this 6N, then who are this season's Care/Brown/Robshaw/Haskell etc

Initial thoughts are that Mark Wilson is done. Turning 32 this year and had a pretty anonymous 6Ns, obvious candidate to move on given other options at 6 with a greater upside

Jonny Hill another that is in a hyper competitive position and had a useless tournament - mostly anonymous other than penalties conceded. Ewels actually looked half decent in his two starts at the end of the tournament

Halfbacks-wise, Youngs also turns 32 this year but had an okay 6Ns given the circumstances and is hanging on only due to a lack of an alternative.

Otherwise I don't see a whole lot of room to move on elderly or below-par players like in 2018 in place of younger talent
Probably more realistic to just look at players' who's stock may have fallen in the last year.

Billy
Mako
Daly
Hill
Genge
Wilson
JJ
Farrell
Ford

And I'd add Youngs to that list, purely on the basis that another SH has to be brought through for the WC

Obviously they aren't all destined for the scrapheap - but they're all likely to find their positions under far greater threat, if there's a real contender for their spot. The Sarries players' poor form could be put down to lack of match practice - but they won't be having top class club competition for some while either.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by ovalball »

And, for a proper 'reset' - a new captain is really required - otherwise it's just a rehash of the same old thing.
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Hawk97
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hawk97 »

piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:58 pm
Quins89 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:22 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:36 pm Also Youngs has just come through the 6N as probably the best 9 in this season's event. He really is a very good player.

Sure England have struggled at times, but that's not come down to Youngs
So where have we struggled Piq?

I don't think saying players have done somewhat well and we've come off a 6-11 hammering, 40-24 (regardless of scenario) hammering, 32-18 Hammering, Italy having their best game comfortably against us and winning at the death against France albeit in style a good tournament.

Penalties are a factor, but there's no way they are the sole factor. Wales and Scotland in particular haven't changed much but the scoreline and performance difference is huge. France allow you to play somewhat I get that and Ireland had a good game. But there hasn't been huge change outside of probably France yet the results have been getting worse and worse.

Any thoughts? :)
We've struggled with discipline. Sure some of those calls could have gone for us, but some others could have gone against, and we're tipping the scales the wrong way. And sure France highlighted against Wales the problem of trying to be careful, you just lose territory and don't contest possession enough, but before anything else we've got to get the penalty count under control. Or at the very least we've got to stop the repeat infringements where we concede 2-3 in a matter of moments.

Discipline isn't just Hill piling in right in front of the ref making sure his error is noted. It's May or Farrell rolling on the floor on our ball, perhaps that's coming from pressure but their work into contact ahead of presenting the ball back isn't up to snuff.

In the main that's it, unless we get the penalties under control trying to judge the rest is just very problematic. Yes the defence didn't look as tight as we'd like, but in the main it's again penalties hurting us, and we were shifting around with who played in the front three, both in selection and injury. Penalties are over riding so much else.

I haven't done this, but if you were to look back at all the tries we conceded, I bet a large % of them are directly from penalties. It's where and when we give them away as well - like when we are in their 22, and we end up defending our own 22 two mins later. If it doesn't improve, we don't win. It improved in 2019, we averaged 8/9 per game (which is very low for us), and we nearly won 6N, done well at the RWC etc.

I'm also going to blame selection. I think it was clearly a mistake to pick the Sarries. They ALL were shadows of their former selves

- Watch Mako blowing in the first half vs France, getting minced in the scrums throughout, not having the same affect in the power running
- George was dropped!
- Maro was still distruptive and a machine, but the pens were a joke
- Billy V, enough has been said. Watch him walking around whilst we concede tries
- Farrell looks like he's been on the couch for 3 months. It's not an indication of his ability, but his legs have shrunk (call out Dominator...) and he has a gut. He's still the commander on the field, but he's not up to it

I do think the selections cost us.

Question is - does he pull a 2019 and pick 4 or 5 new players? Who goes? Last time it was Robshaw, Hask, Hartley, Brown and Care. I can't identify the players up for the chop this time. Billy V, Daly, Hill?
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Hawk97
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hawk97 »

ovalball wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:12 pm
openclashXX wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:42 pm If we assume that there will be another 2018-style clearout of players following this 6N, then who are this season's Care/Brown/Robshaw/Haskell etc

Initial thoughts are that Mark Wilson is done. Turning 32 this year and had a pretty anonymous 6Ns, obvious candidate to move on given other options at 6 with a greater upside

Jonny Hill another that is in a hyper competitive position and had a useless tournament - mostly anonymous other than penalties conceded. Ewels actually looked half decent in his two starts at the end of the tournament

Halfbacks-wise, Youngs also turns 32 this year but had an okay 6Ns given the circumstances and is hanging on only due to a lack of an alternative.

Otherwise I don't see a whole lot of room to move on elderly or below-par players like in 2018 in place of younger talent
Probably more realistic to just look at players' who's stock may have fallen in the last year.

Billy
Mako
Daly
Hill
Genge
Wilson
JJ
Farrell
Ford

And I'd add Youngs to that list, purely on the basis that another SH has to be brought through for the WC

Obviously they aren't all destined for the scrapheap - but they're all likely to find their positions under far greater threat, if there's a real contender for their spot. The Sarries players' poor form could be put down to lack of match practice - but they won't be having top class club competition for some while either.
Being realistic and trying to second guess Eddie (fool's game), I can only identify these as credible;

- Daly. He's already been dropped once, but I do think EJ liked what he saw off the bench. Still, it's not a good look if you've been dropped. He's already moved him once from where he started

- Wilson. Underhill walks back in, Lawes is coming back, so that means there is no Wilson by default. IF he picks Dombrandt as well, Wilson is done

- Hill. Again, dropped. Prefers Ewels, Launch is coming back, Lawes will be back and will Kruis be available in the summer/autumn?



That's it. Youngs, the Vunipolae, Farrell - they're going nowhere
Quins89
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Look at how small we look across the field if those 2 aren't in the team. If Mako doesn't play Billy is generally naff in his performance.

It's a real conundrum. If he does drop them or a new coach comes in and drops them, we are going to play a vastly different method of play in the forwards. Who knows what that looks like?

I do hope Eddie takes a hard hard look at the undroppables though. Having no options behind AND not looking, even if you think it's much of the same, means there's no competition at all. Tactically may be sound but the players may realise the same thing, feel they aren't under any threat to perform even if they are in the jersey and as a result look bad when they play.
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