**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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Hawk97
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hawk97 »

Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Curry, George, Sinckler from the current crop. Lawes and Underhill can make yards. Then you've got to assume if Billy is replaced, it's by either DomB or Simmonds - both can carrry. One is bigger than the other, but Simmonds uses low centre of grav plus power to generate yards.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

Yeah I guess you're right. :)
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hawk97 »

Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:05 am Yeah I guess you're right. :)
I wouldn't be surprised to see Dombrandt ineffective at international level though. We thought the same about Armand didn't we... :x :uhoh:
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

So in the guardian, Eddie has ear marked 9 and 10 as the main position of depth that need either changing or looking at.

I do wonder if Ford's teetering genuinely.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ns-unclear
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by ovalball »

Hawk97 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:02 am
Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Curry, George, Sinckler from the current crop. Lawes and Underhill can make yards. Then you've got to assume if Billy is replaced, it's by either DomB or Simmonds - both can carrry. One is bigger than the other, but Simmonds uses low centre of grav plus power to generate yards.
Barbeary is the answer.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Hawk97 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:02 am
Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Curry, George, Sinckler from the current crop. Lawes and Underhill can make yards. Then you've got to assume if Billy is replaced, it's by either DomB or Simmonds - both can carrry. One is bigger than the other, but Simmonds uses low centre of grav plus power to generate yards.
In traffic?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Hawk97 »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:35 pm
Hawk97 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:02 am
Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Curry, George, Sinckler from the current crop. Lawes and Underhill can make yards. Then you've got to assume if Billy is replaced, it's by either DomB or Simmonds - both can carrry. One is bigger than the other, but Simmonds uses low centre of grav plus power to generate yards.
In traffic?
Try against Toulouse was a pick and go vs 2 players. Same against Glasgow. Same against La Rochelle

All in the first 2 mins in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RatqrNrHps4&t=184s
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Hawk97 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:54 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:35 pm
Hawk97 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:02 am
Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Curry, George, Sinckler from the current crop. Lawes and Underhill can make yards. Then you've got to assume if Billy is replaced, it's by either DomB or Simmonds - both can carrry. One is bigger than the other, but Simmonds uses low centre of grav plus power to generate yards.
In traffic?
Try against Toulouse was a pick and go vs 2 players. Same against Glasgow. Same against La Rochelle

All in the first 2 mins in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RatqrNrHps4&t=184s

Things that work at a lower level. This didn't work when he tried it at a higher level. Albeit only give a brief chance, and was often send to stand far away from the ball and then we didn't pass wide to where he'd been stood
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

Hawk97 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:47 am
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:58 pm
Quins89 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:22 pm
piquant wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:36 pm Also Youngs has just come through the 6N as probably the best 9 in this season's event. He really is a very good player.

Sure England have struggled at times, but that's not come down to Youngs
So where have we struggled Piq?

I don't think saying players have done somewhat well and we've come off a 6-11 hammering, 40-24 (regardless of scenario) hammering, 32-18 Hammering, Italy having their best game comfortably against us and winning at the death against France albeit in style a good tournament.

Penalties are a factor, but there's no way they are the sole factor. Wales and Scotland in particular haven't changed much but the scoreline and performance difference is huge. France allow you to play somewhat I get that and Ireland had a good game. But there hasn't been huge change outside of probably France yet the results have been getting worse and worse.

Any thoughts? :)
We've struggled with discipline. Sure some of those calls could have gone for us, but some others could have gone against, and we're tipping the scales the wrong way. And sure France highlighted against Wales the problem of trying to be careful, you just lose territory and don't contest possession enough, but before anything else we've got to get the penalty count under control. Or at the very least we've got to stop the repeat infringements where we concede 2-3 in a matter of moments.

Discipline isn't just Hill piling in right in front of the ref making sure his error is noted. It's May or Farrell rolling on the floor on our ball, perhaps that's coming from pressure but their work into contact ahead of presenting the ball back isn't up to snuff.

In the main that's it, unless we get the penalties under control trying to judge the rest is just very problematic. Yes the defence didn't look as tight as we'd like, but in the main it's again penalties hurting us, and we were shifting around with who played in the front three, both in selection and injury. Penalties are over riding so much else.

I haven't done this, but if you were to look back at all the tries we conceded, I bet a large % of them are directly from penalties. It's where and when we give them away as well - like when we are in their 22, and we end up defending our own 22 two mins later. If it doesn't improve, we don't win. It improved in 2019, we averaged 8/9 per game (which is very low for us), and we nearly won 6N, done well at the RWC etc.

I'm also going to blame selection. I think it was clearly a mistake to pick the Sarries. They ALL were shadows of their former selves

- Watch Mako blowing in the first half vs France, getting minced in the scrums throughout, not having the same affect in the power running
- George was dropped!
- Maro was still distruptive and a machine, but the pens were a joke
- Billy V, enough has been said. Watch him walking around whilst we concede tries
- Farrell looks like he's been on the couch for 3 months. It's not an indication of his ability, but his legs have shrunk (call out Dominator...) and he has a gut. He's still the commander on the field, but he's not up to it

I do think the selections cost us.

Question is - does he pull a 2019 and pick 4 or 5 new players? Who goes? Last time it was Robshaw, Hask, Hartley, Brown and Care. I can't identify the players up for the chop this time. Billy V, Daly, Hill?

The Sarries situation did not work well, albeit it was certainly complicated by Covid. I can live with it though because back when they talked to the players about how it'd work the idea the players would have had some rest ahead of the Lions tour wasn't a bad line of thought.

Events have obviously not worked out as hoped, and it's been made worse when none of Genge, Stuart, Robson, Ewels, Hill, Earls, Malins and Lawrence have been impactful enough, nor Willis albeit that's more the events thing again. And I assume they were thinking 2-3 of that group would have done more by now. Add in that lot looking to establish and some undercooked Sarries players and we've been at best inconsistent.

I've also no idea if the group have been training harder than suits playing, Eddie has run them hard in the past at times and it is just hard to accommodate that alongside pushing for results in the now. If they have been getting flogged that's a big bit of mitigation, though they might have been getting to take it easy, which would make it worse
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKl6UngFEX8

Shall we start looking at another new fullback.

I watched Josh Hodge yesterday. What a try. Burned Rees Zammit and Jonny May, big and likes to tackle.

Really did get stuck in and stopped May and Zammit in his traps. Yes LTVG etc etc.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

We haven't even looked at Malins yet. And yes, it's the ltvg look at the shiny thing. Hodge, for now, needs to try and establish some game time at Exeter, which will not be easy looking at their back three options
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Hawk97 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:54 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:35 pm
Hawk97 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:02 am
Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Curry, George, Sinckler from the current crop. Lawes and Underhill can make yards. Then you've got to assume if Billy is replaced, it's by either DomB or Simmonds - both can carrry. One is bigger than the other, but Simmonds uses low centre of grav plus power to generate yards.
In traffic?
Try against Toulouse was a pick and go vs 2 players. Same against Glasgow. Same against La Rochelle

All in the first 2 mins in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RatqrNrHps4&t=184s
Sorry but that is basically a backs highlight video. There is no example of him carrying in traffic. I couldnt imagine him making any impact from the base of a scrum against international player.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Anonymous 1 »

DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
Read is 4 inches taller and 20lbs heavier.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
You also get excellent hands, real pace, a huge workrate and top standard decision making with Read, and he played in a side that had the nous to be able to use all that.

Even if we had a player like Read, and we don't, putting just one such player into England's team wouldn't be enough. Maybe the closest we'd get is Mercer and he's much more a highlights player than Read, although there is enough about Mercer to think he could push on
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:10 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
Read is 4 inches taller and 20lbs heavier.
Than who? Eddie Jones?
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

piquant wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:28 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
You also get excellent hands, real pace, a huge workrate and top standard decision making with Read, and he played in a side that had the nous to be able to use all that.

Even if we had a player like Read, and we don't, putting just one such player into England's team wouldn't be enough. Maybe the closest we'd get is Mercer and he's much more a highlights player than Read, although there is enough about Mercer to think he could push on
Gregory Aldritt?

I’ll not be convinced of why we need a gutbucket at no8.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Anonymous 1 »

DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:50 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:10 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
Read is 4 inches taller and 20lbs heavier.
Than who? Eddie Jones?
Than the little fast guy called Sam Simmonds.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:06 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:50 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:10 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
Read is 4 inches taller and 20lbs heavier.
Than who? Eddie Jones?
Than the little fast guy called Sam Simmonds.
Hmm, simmonds is only 14st 2 lb, that is suprisingly light for a 6ft 2 backrower
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Anonymous 1 »

ChipSpike wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:24 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:06 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:50 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:10 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
Read is 4 inches taller and 20lbs heavier.
Than who? Eddie Jones?
Than the little fast guy called Sam Simmonds.
Hmm, simmonds is only 14st 2 lb, that is suprisingly light for a 6ft 2 backrower
https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/players/sam-simmonds

DOB 10/11/1994
Born Torquay
Height 6ft / 1.84m
Weight 16st 2lbs / 103kg
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by ChipSpike »

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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Anonymous 1 »

ChipSpike wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:43 pm https://rd.premiershiprugby.com/matchce ... ef=dynamic

Sam simmonds stats from here
I don't know what planet he is 14 stone on but it's not this one
Last edited by Anonymous 1 on Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:51 pm
piquant wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:28 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
You also get excellent hands, real pace, a huge workrate and top standard decision making with Read, and he played in a side that had the nous to be able to use all that.

Even if we had a player like Read, and we don't, putting just one such player into England's team wouldn't be enough. Maybe the closest we'd get is Mercer and he's much more a highlights player than Read, although there is enough about Mercer to think he could push on
Gregory Aldritt?

I’ll not be convinced of why we need a gutbucket at no8.

If Aldritt is availablet to us we should certainly be taking a look.

And you don't need one, but it simplifies things in very helpful fashion. Without it you're more reliant on skill and decision making, we don't have those, we do have some big lumps
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

piquant wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:06 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:51 pm
piquant wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:28 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
You also get excellent hands, real pace, a huge workrate and top standard decision making with Read, and he played in a side that had the nous to be able to use all that.

Even if we had a player like Read, and we don't, putting just one such player into England's team wouldn't be enough. Maybe the closest we'd get is Mercer and he's much more a highlights player than Read, although there is enough about Mercer to think he could push on
Gregory Aldritt?

I’ll not be convinced of why we need a gutbucket at no8.

If Aldritt is availablet to us we should certainly be taking a look.

And you don't need one, but it simplifies things in very helpful fashion. Without it you're more reliant on skill and decision making, we don't have those, we do have some big lumps
But we don’t- we’re not a big physical side by any stretch.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

Really good first half this.

Bristol 14-14 Harlequins
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

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High hopes for young Raphael Quirke starting his first Sale game at scrum half today. Sale FC were talking him up as the real deal.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Quins89 »

21-17 HT.

Great Half.
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Post by Quins89 »

Bristol 35-33 Quins

Try in over time - second time in 2 weeks they've won it late.

Gutted :(
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by danny_fitz »

Cracking London Irish result
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by mr flaps »

Barbeary has got some work rate for a big lump.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Margin_Walker »

danny_fitz wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:23 pm Cracking London Irish result
Yeah, it was. Was a bit messy at the end letting them in for the two point, but it was a big step up in performance from the last few weeks.

Thought the backline especially were superb. Some cracking tries scored
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:14 pm
piquant wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:06 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:51 pm
piquant wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:28 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 am Other countries do fine without using their 8 as a lazy battering ram. Probably why Read got more caps than Lauaki.
You also get excellent hands, real pace, a huge workrate and top standard decision making with Read, and he played in a side that had the nous to be able to use all that.

Even if we had a player like Read, and we don't, putting just one such player into England's team wouldn't be enough. Maybe the closest we'd get is Mercer and he's much more a highlights player than Read, although there is enough about Mercer to think he could push on
Gregory Aldritt?

I’ll not be convinced of why we need a gutbucket at no8.

If Aldritt is availablet to us we should certainly be taking a look.

And you don't need one, but it simplifies things in very helpful fashion. Without it you're more reliant on skill and decision making, we don't have those, we do have some big lumps
But we don’t- we’re not a big physical side by any stretch.
We do have some big lumps in players like Billy and Mako. And there are consequences to taking them out if we cannot use those lumps. Even if some people claim not to see value in said lumps
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Dobbin »

I think Sale have just used all their get out of jail free cards in a single game. Great guts to win after all those sin-bins.

What the hell has happened to Wasps' attacking game? They were woeful
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Post by mr flaps »

Harlequins game review.

https://youtu.be/hNatmCHkI-Q
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by danny_fitz »

Margin_Walker wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:42 pm
danny_fitz wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:23 pm Cracking London Irish result
Yeah, it was. Was a bit messy at the end letting them in for the two point, but it was a big step up in performance from the last few weeks.

Thought the backline especially were superb. Some cracking tries scored
Loaders first try was great
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by Margin_Walker »

danny_fitz wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:39 pm
Margin_Walker wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:42 pm
danny_fitz wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:23 pm Cracking London Irish result
Yeah, it was. Was a bit messy at the end letting them in for the two point, but it was a big step up in performance from the last few weeks.

Thought the backline especially were superb. Some cracking tries scored
Loaders first try was great
Yeah it was. Did three players in a post box.

Threats all over the place out wide at the moment, which is nice to see. If we manage to cling on up front, we can hurt teams when the game loosens up.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:59 am The Vunipola's are both the answer and the problem for me.

Take out those 2, who is a consistent carrier in the pack?

Look at how small we look across the field if those 2 aren't in the team. If Mako doesn't play Billy is generally naff in his performance.

It's a real conundrum. If he does drop them or a new coach comes in and drops them, we are going to play a vastly different method of play in the forwards. Who knows what that looks like?

I do hope Eddie takes a hard hard look at the undroppables though. Having no options behind AND not looking, even if you think it's much of the same, means there's no competition at all. Tactically may be sound but the players may realise the same thing, feel they aren't under any threat to perform even if they are in the jersey and as a result look bad when they play.
Carrying is a bit of a big problem. Especially when England rarely try to throw the ball to a player hitting the line at speed. It's always to a static or barely moving player. It's something always complain about. It might be a Ben Youngs issue. Dithering scrum half's waste these opportunities after all. Look at New Zealand they rarely throw it to a static player. Some one like Kieran Reed regularly made yards and it was usually because he took the ball at speed.

I suspect it's not helped with Farrell as well. When he plays 10 he's not gonna be able to throw quick balls into players hitting the line, he passes short balls to players behind him looping or long passes onto static players in obvious space. Likewise he lacks the capability to hit the line into half gaps at speed himself only to run into big gaps when they are available.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:02 pm So in the guardian, Eddie has ear marked 9 and 10 as the main position of depth that need either changing or looking at.

I do wonder if Ford's teetering genuinely.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ns-unclear
9 and 10 should be looked at, but Ford isn't the problem. But this 6 Nations he's had no centers running onto the ball to do anything effective. Though I see that Faz is still effectively undropable if that's what Jones is looking at. It's still coming a campaign too late.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by mr flaps »

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:16 pm
Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:02 pm So in the guardian, Eddie has ear marked 9 and 10 as the main position of depth that need either changing or looking at.

I do wonder if Ford's teetering genuinely.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ns-unclear
9 and 10 should be looked at, but Ford isn't the problem. But this 6 Nations he's had no centers running onto the ball to do anything effective. Though I see that Faz is still effectively undropable if that's what Jones is looking at. It's still coming a campaign too late.
If they park Faz outside Smith to run the show from 12 then why bother. Really hope Smiths selection coincides with Tuilagi coming back into the side.
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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Post by eldanielfire »

mr flaps wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:28 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:16 pm
Quins89 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:02 pm So in the guardian, Eddie has ear marked 9 and 10 as the main position of depth that need either changing or looking at.

I do wonder if Ford's teetering genuinely.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ns-unclear
9 and 10 should be looked at, but Ford isn't the problem. But this 6 Nations he's had no centers running onto the ball to do anything effective. Though I see that Faz is still effectively undropable if that's what Jones is looking at. It's still coming a campaign too late.
If they park Faz outside Smith to run the show from 12 then why bother. Really hope Smiths selection coincides with Tuilagi coming back into the side.
I agree.
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