Planet Rugby Forum

friedchimp wrote:Moving on, I don't think we should be too doom and gloom about the future. I think we've got a good talent base and aside from hooker i think we can turn around the tight 5.
The major rebuilding job is in the backrow, how many of this lot will play in the 6N?

Wood
Robshaw
Haskell
Morgan
Vunipola
Easter

Billy looks like the only sure bet out of that sorry bunch. I don't know what they've done to Morgan but i preferred the chubby dude who made meters to this version. The rest can go but that's a lot of players to bring in.

Depends on the coaches. But at this moment:

Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Vunipola

We are surely going to have to look at new players in the backrow now, likes of Itoje, Ewers, Kvesic etc?

nicebutdim wrote:

friedchimp wrote:Moving on, I don't think we should be too doom and gloom about the future. I think we've got a good talent base and aside from hooker i think we can turn around the tight 5.
The major rebuilding job is in the backrow, how many of this lot will play in the 6N?

Wood
Robshaw
Haskell
Morgan
Vunipola
Easter

Billy looks like the only sure bet out of that sorry bunch. I don't know what they've done to Morgan but i preferred the chubby dude who made meters to this version. The rest can go but that's a lot of players to bring in.

Depends on the coaches. But at this moment:

Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Vunipola

haskell
morgan
vunipola

Kvesic and Clifford must be brought in.

Minimum. Add itoje if he continues his form and starting.

Wendigo7 wrote:Kvesic and Clifford must be brought in.

Minimum. Add itoje if he continues his form and starting.

Think it all hinges on the new coaching team.

geordie_6 wrote:We are surely going to have to look at new players in the backrow now, likes of Itoje, Ewers, Kvesic etc?

But this is evolution not revolution. The coaching staff have been laying the foundations for the future of English rugby that spans long into the future. Consistency, honesty, hard work, discipline, character. A core group of players have established this over the past 4 years and they both individually and collectively have tremendous credit in the bank and crucial experience that can be passed on to any new recruits. After identifying these world class personalities trust has been given and also repaid in spades. We must keep building this fortress of character from which all success will flow.

Q: er, what about the gameplan and playing philosophy?

A: Sorry you must not have understood. As I explained, character and lots of it.

ThePretender wrote:Chris Robshaw match stats:
six (8 on ESPN) tackles, five carries, three metres made, two passes, no turnovers

Tom Wood was little better

seven tackles, , 39 metres made, one pass, no turnovers


And our lock who didn't play 80 mins contributed

13 tackles, 33 metres, 2 defenders beaten 1 off load and 1 try assist!

You make him sound like heyneke Meyer.

ThePretender wrote:'hindsight' and all that.

but it was never, ever going to work.

Lancaster only ever coached Leeds Carnegie. Farrell was a failed league > union convert who somehow landed a big job in the national setup and directly coached his son, who he backed over ford. Rowntree was obviously a scrummaging great but our scrum is going backwards.

Lancaster seemed more interested in rebuilding the image of english rugby but forgot the rest. We've been absolutely humiliated.

we lost to Wales because from top to bottom we didn't know how to close out a big game and we lost to Australia because you need to a) know your best team and b) pick it and we did neither.

Fairly succinct summary. It has been clear for over a year that the thinking on selections has been, to describe it politely, muddled. That has to be largely down to a League convert exerting far too much influence .
The final straw for me was dropping Kvesic and Attwood from the squad. When Selim reported that the thinking was that the final stages of rwc would be very fast paced matches and the coaches were impressed with Kruis's fitness levels and thought that was more important than retaining our most powerful lock, I knew it would probably end in tears.

I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

I agree. It still means I pick Ford as the no 1 10 but I agree.

I still want Itoje, Kvesic and Clifford brought in.

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

Absolutely, forget building, pick a decent side and get them winning.

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

Its usually a bit of both, but really if a top talent is a bit of plum and can't integrate and work hard in camp then its easy to get shot of them. That judgement shouldn't be made before hand.

Agree about planning for the future. When you build everything towards a World Cup (which I personally hate, sometimes I wish it didn't exist) then it all seems rather pointless when you fail miserably. Start f**king winning, aim for number 1/2 in the world then worry about the pressure of delivering at a WC. Talk about putting the bloody cart before the horse.

Wendigo7 wrote:

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

I agree. It still means I pick Ford as the no 1 10 but I agree.

I still want Itoje, Kvesic and Clifford brought in.

And Ewers, get some serious carrying done !

Backwoodsman1 wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

I agree. It still means I pick Ford as the no 1 10 but I agree.

I still want Itoje, Kvesic and Clifford brought in.

And Ewers, get some serious carrying done !

Still don't see what Ewers brings at 6 that we cannot get simply by moving Billy V there.

I've been slow to get on the Ewers bandwagon because IMO he looks a bit slow to play at this level

But if Clifford is going to be stuck on the bench behind the doormat and Itoje is going to be played at lock not flanker, then perhaps it's time England brought in some Zimbabwean muscle of their own

Raggs wrote:

Backwoodsman1 wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

I agree. It still means I pick Ford as the no 1 10 but I agree.

I still want Itoje, Kvesic and Clifford brought in.

And Ewers, get some serious carrying done !

Still don't see what Ewers brings at 6 that we cannot get simply by moving Billy V there.

Who is your eight ? Billy is worth sticking with imho, unless Hughes gets selected over him.

Page 666.

Backwoodsman1 wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Backwoodsman1 wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

I agree. It still means I pick Ford as the no 1 10 but I agree.

I still want Itoje, Kvesic and Clifford brought in.

And Ewers, get some serious carrying done !

Still don't see what Ewers brings at 6 that we cannot get simply by moving Billy V there.

Who is your eight ? Billy is worth sticking with imho, unless Hughes gets selected over him.

Morgan, followed by Hughes.

If we're not having a jumper at 6, then BV can play there, and for me he's everything that Ewers is, but perhaps even better (and tried and tested).

Billy should be the one area of continuity in the back row and should stay at 8 for the time being

In an ideal world I'd also be keen to explore the dual openside approach of Kvesic at 7 and Clifford at 8 with Itoje at 6

Wendigo7 wrote:Kvesic and Clifford must be brought in.

Minimum. Add itoje if he continues his form and starting.

Too early for Cliffod IMO

I just find embarrassing that Ford comes on at half time and england looked infinitely better, what the fudge was the game plan and who in their right mind thought putting those 2 in midfield was a good idea?

Ford still looked good even with those 2 as well.

woken up this morning and disappointed but can't say its anywhere near the level i was at after the wales game last week.

i think everyone knew deep down during the warm up matches that this side were in a muddled state and we knew again when the world cup squad was selected that it all looked a bit "hmmm".
the lineup against Fiji was fine but, in typical English style, the inexperienced coach abandoned all risk and went with the safety blanket for Wales.

he looked at the team he'd tried to build for the last 4 years and thought "what if i've got it wrong?" and before we knew it it was yet another un-tried and untested combination debuting in a must win game against an enemy who very rarely lie down, even when decimated by injuries.

and so a team took the field full of honest young men who will work hard, but ultimately alot of them don't have the spark or the skill to take it to the next level.

Is it really any surprise we blew it in the last 15 minutes against Wales? Gatland has been there, he's done it before, Lancaster is a novice on the international stage. He's never even coached a team in a knockout tournament of any note and its hardly a shock that his decision making and his mark on the team full of honest, hardworking men, ended up costing us victory.

and we knew after the Wales game that this was it. It was always likely to be the case that we had to beat Wales as Australia was going to be too much. everyone knew that after the final whistle went against Wales that it probably spelled the end of our world cup.

Australia just confirmed what we knew was coming, it was our capitulation against Wales that was the terminal diagnosis for our World Cup chances.

ultimately it all falls on the coaching staff
- persisting with too many players (like Twelvetrees) and giving them time when it would be better to blood other, more talented options
- parachuting un-tested players in at the last minute - Burgess - and starting him in basically the biggest group match in a position he doesn't even play for his bloody club
- chopping, changing, second guessing, muddling, tweaking your backline seemingly every match. 14th different centre pairing, 18th different half back combination.
- not knowing the style of rugby... is 10 man rugby with a good kicking game? are we looking to really go wide, are we playing flat on the gainline, do we want to be deeper
- not picking a recognised 7. this is absolute LUNACY at this level and we all knew it would come back to get us eventually
- awful, pre-planned substitutions designed to fulfill a game plan thought out prior to the match with no consideration for the situation on the field
- a scrum and forward pack regressing at great speed

also - if you want a very clear view on how someone can stamp authority and clear planning on a team in 12 months look at what Cheika did with Australia. he's picked a plan, picked players, identified the weaknesses and has turned a very average australian side into a serious outfit.

Wendigo7 wrote:I just find embarrassing that Ford comes on at half time and england looked infinitely better, what the f**k was the game plan and who in their right mind thought putting those 2 in midfield was a good idea?

Ford still looked good even with those 2 as well.

The same person who didn't have Nowell on the bench to cover wing and center, thus shifting our attacking center out to the wing when May went off.

Openside wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:Kvesic and Clifford must be brought in.

Minimum. Add itoje if he continues his form and starting.

Too early for Cliffod IMO

Clifford is 22. Not exactly a baby compared to many international debutants

I'm of Welsh heritage but lived in Glos for ages so see quite a lot of AP rugby.

Whoever is next after Lancaster needs to choose a game plan, the 30 or so players best suited to the gameplan and just stick to both it and them.

Probably the best thing Gatland did was nail his colours firmly to the Lydiate/Warbs/Toby back row and stick with it. They have all got over 50 caps now and will be around for 2019 and possibly further.

England need to build around Ford, Joseph and the back 3.

The front row issues are there for all to see. Is it worth now sticking with Brookes and Mako and just letting them learn on the job. Let's be honest, they can't go worse than Cole /Marler tonight.

Hooker is another issue, again they need to pick their man and stick with him.

2nd row depth is fine.

Back row is all over the shop. Robshaw not good enough at 7, but having seen a lot of Kevesic I am not sure he is either, but you've got to at least have a proper look. Wood/Easter/Haskell are not good enough full stop. I assume Burgess is the long term 6 so him and someone like Ewers are good options there. Not sure Morgan is good enough either but you might have to stick with Billy V and him.

Scrum half is a massive issue. Youngs and Wigglesworth just not good enough. You need Simpson to stay fit and have a real good look at him.

Ford is the real deal. I reckon he is sometimes at least a second ahead of everyone else in terms of what he sees do you need people with him who see things much quicker.

Barritt should never play again. He ruined every move he was involved in with terrible timing of the pass and not committing any defenders. Slade looks the real deal so has hot to be given a shot.

openclashXX wrote:I think for a change we should plan for 2016, not 2019

That is, don't exclude any players for their age, simply their playing ability

Yep. Easter must be very bitter and rightly so.

Paul_ wrote:I'm of Welsh heritage

Stopped reading at this.

Petros wrote:

ThePretender wrote:Chris Robshaw match stats:
six (8 on ESPN) tackles, five carries, three metres made, two passes, no turnovers

Tom Wood was little better

seven tackles, , 39 metres made, one pass, no turnovers


And our lock who didn't play 80 mins contributed

13 tackles, 33 metres, 2 defenders beaten 1 off load and 1 try assist!

That's damning.

He told The Rugby Paper: “I don’t think England have any world-class players at the moment in terms of getting into a World XV. George Ford is a very good player at 10, but I don’t think he’s at that level yet.

Sean Fitzpatrick.

What's an example of a balanced back row we could pick?

Burgess
Kvesic
BV

?

Itoje, Kvesic, Clifford.

It's a bit drastic and very unlikely to be selected but I think it's the most balanced we can put out.

Wendigo7 wrote:Itoje, Kvesic, Clifford.

It's a bit drastic and very unlikely to be selected but I think it's the most balanced we can put out.

That's a bit light isn't it? (question, not a statement)

Billy V and Morgan need to be battering rams again. Without the weight and destructive carrying they're ordinary. Easter and Waldron have been the best alround players and Easter a lineout option.

I'd have Morgan and Billy but only after pies and expecting 50 minutes of bludgeon.

pandion wrote:Billy V and Morgan need to be battering rams again. Without the weight and destructive carrying they're ordinary. Easter and Waldron have been the best alround players and Easter a lineout option.

I'd have Morgan and Billy but only after pies and expecting 50 minutes of bludgeon.

Yeah the stupid thing is they made them lose weight but then sub them anyway.

So they spend the same amount of time on the pitch but are less impactful.

Joe Launchbury collecting his motm award

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... ralia.html

Sorry but look at his face.....

So 6nations team/squad assuming all are fit? 8-15 (excluding 12) practically pick themselves. After that do we have a single player who you would say is 'nailed on' to start?

1. Marler/Mako/Corbs/Auterac - fudge knows assume Marler puts some weight back on he could retain his place, or Corbs could find form/fitness again?
2. Hartley has to start surely with Youngs/George competing for subs spot, until we know what's caused the scrum problems it's hard to judge Youngs but everything else has been good from him imo
3. Brookes/Cole/wilson/Thomas. Brooke's for me as Cole looks underpowered and a penalty magnet, interested to see who is first choice at Bath next season

4/5. I still Launch and Lawes are the ideal pairing but as with Youngs until the scrum is sorted the shirts are up for grabs for Attwood, Slater, Itoje and Kruis to aim for

6. Erm fudge knows again Ewers, Clarke, Burgess, Wood, Haskell, Robshaw, Itoje all could have the shirt by 6n time. Biggest concern with Ewers is him and Billy would be very similar in the same backrow

7. Key shirt for how we play next season and Kvesic is the only contender really, more due to the dearth of genuine options (only 4 English starters at 7 in the AP and two of them are Clarke and Robshaw) Fraser has potential and Clifford might grow into the role given the chance too?

12. Can't even guess who this will be, I'm almost hopeful it'll be Manu as otherwise they might try and shoehorn him at 13 and JJ at 11. Beyond that, dare I say it, Faz is possibly our best option at 12 (I've discounted Slade although in retrospect he could be an option too?)

Ramble over...

It could have been worse too. Well played the Aussies, we had no answer with the players available to be able to keep Pocock and Hooper out of the game, and perhaps we wouldn't have had no matter any changes to selection. The Wales result was a right cock up by England, last night was man vs boy with one very clear and worthy winner.

AP starts soon, so there's that

From this squad Ford, Joseph, May, Nowell, Watson, Brown, the Youngs brothers, Launchbury, Kruis and Billy V should be the core we build around for the next 6 nations as players of fairly proven test quality. I expect some of the other fringe guys like Slade and George will prove their worth too.

Goode, Barritt, Wigglesworth, Wood, Webber and Burgess at centre should be gone for good, just not up to it really.

The rest of the squad divides into two categories for me, those who have shown they can do it but are lacking form (e.g. Morgan and Robshaw) and those who need to improve aspects of their game to get up to standard (e.g. Farrell, Mako).

Squad Position Standard Drop/Keep
Jamie George Hooker Average ?
Rob Webber Hooker Prospect Keep
Tom Youngs Hooker Club Player Drop
Kieran Brookes Prop Prospect Keep
Dan Cole Prop Over the Hill Drop
Joe Marler Prop Headcase Drop
Mako Vunipola Prop Average Drop
David Wilson Prop Prospect Keep
George Kruis Lock Prospect Keep
Joe Launchbury Lock Prospect Keep
Courtney Lawes Lock Club Player Drop
Geoff Parling Lock Over the Hill Drop
James Haskell Flanker Over the Hill Drop
Chris Robshaw (c) Flanker Club Player Drop
Tom Wood Flanker Average ?
Nick Easter Number 8 Over the Hill Drop
Ben Morgan Number 8 Good Keep
Billy Vunipola 1 Number 8 Club Player Drop
Danny Care Scrum-half Club Player Drop
Richard Wigglesworth Scrum-half Club Player Drop
Ben Youngs Scrum-half Club Player Drop
Owen Farrell Fly-half Club Player Drop
George Ford Fly-half Prospect Keep
Brad Barritt Centre Club Player Drop
Sam Burgess Centre WHY ? Drop
Jonathan Joseph Centre Prospect Keep
Henry Slade Centre Prospect Keep
Jonny May Wing Headless Chicken Drop
Jack Nowell Wing Club Player Drop
Anthony Watson Wing Prospect Keep
Mike Brown Fullback Nutter Drop
Alex Goode Fullback Prospect Keep

Time to re-build and be harsh. You won the WC under 20's, where are those players ? this is the future of English rugby. Get rid of the over rated cocky current players, who just think turning up is all they have to do, the Wales game would have shaken up The Boks, AB's and Aussie's, England just didn't seem to care less by their performance. You have a bunch of alsoran senior players who think their pop stars, the younger players are acting like them, instead of learning what it means to be an England rugby player. South Africa have brought through their Under 20's WC squad to play international rugby, New Zealand the same, learn and learn quickly or you will become the beating boys for SH rugby, also get your heads out of sand, so what if England players are playing in France, they play against world class players and learn much more than England players playing in a very sub standard league in relation to France. Maybe send all your best young talent to France ?

Coach Stuart Lancaster Why ? Who is he ? What has he done ? Only coached 2nd division Leeds, Get rid now move on
Backs Farrall Why ? Failed Rugby League coach ! Says it all Get rid now move on
Forwards Rowentree Good player, but coaching credentials ? Club Coach, get rid move on

As a South African I would hate it if it happened, but the best thing England can do is phone Eddie Jones and Jake White tomorrow, Eddie Jones is free after the WC, and White always loves working with Jones. They will sort England out.

The writing has been on the wall for years, England have won nothing under Lancaster, so how do you breed a winning mentality ? The Irish & French so called friendlies showed how under prepared and the lack of talent in the England team.

Good Luck with The RFU lads, Jolly hockey sticks lets have another bottle of bubbles