Planet Rugby Forum

bimboman wrote:

Jake wrote:I am concerned at the whole picture here. It seems very few clubs are even close to profitable.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... nd-verdict

That’s still a mixed bag and I’d be hopeful for some and not for others . I certainly can’t see how Worcester survives.

By changing owners every few years. There are a lot of mugs about!

JM2K6 wrote:
They brought him back on as soon as they could once Chris Malone got injured after replacing Evans. We had a kick before then, Brown missed it.

Evans came on because we didn't have a ten and Deano didn't trust Gommars and Care to be enough to see the team home. Evans missed a late drop goal but it was about directing the team.

He did not come on to make a kick. Though obviously it was far more preferable to have him in case we got a penalty.

That sounds familiar, and was at the the time what gave me pause for thought. It's not exactly unusual in rugby to have a shot at goal, and why an injured player, even one as good as Evans, is preferable to a 9 out of position and taking any kicks is exactly what struck me as odd. I don't remember what Evans did but my somewhat vague recollection is he wasn't moving well

piquant wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:
They brought him back on as soon as they could once Chris Malone got injured after replacing Evans. We had a kick before then, Brown missed it.

Evans came on because we didn't have a ten and Deano didn't trust Gommars and Care to be enough to see the team home. Evans missed a late drop goal but it was about directing the team.

He did not come on to make a kick. Though obviously it was far more preferable to have him in case we got a penalty.

That sounds familiar, and was at the the time what gave me pause for thought. It's not exactly unusual in rugby to have a shot at goal, and why an injured player, even one as good as Evans, is preferable to a 9 out of position and taking any kicks is exactly what struck me as odd. I don't remember what Evans did but my somewhat vague recollection is he wasn't moving well

He had done his knee.

Deano's testimony on this is available somewhere. Brown was too quiet to play 10, Care was needed at 9, Gommarsall he described as something like a disaster in defence.

Either way he risked the long term health of his star player, so fudge him.

Beeb are taking the mickey!

SaintK wrote:

bimboman wrote:

Jake wrote:I am concerned at the whole picture here. It seems very few clubs are even close to profitable.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... nd-verdict

That’s still a mixed bag and I’d be hopeful for some and not for others . I certainly can’t see how Worcester survives.

By changing owners every few years. There are a lot of mugs about!

I can see the longer term play of owning a rugby team and the growth of the TV dollar and entertainment business, but they’re debt is many more multiples of assets or incomes compared to the others.

Jake wrote:

Beeb are taking the mickey!

very convincing image from facebook, that

bimboman wrote:

SaintK wrote:

bimboman wrote:

Jake wrote:I am concerned at the whole picture here. It seems very few clubs are even close to profitable.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... nd-verdict

That’s still a mixed bag and I’d be hopeful for some and not for others . I certainly can’t see how Worcester survives.

By changing owners every few years. There are a lot of mugs about!

I can see the longer term play of owning a rugby team and the growth of the TV dollar and entertainment business, but they’re debt is many more multiples of assets or incomes compared to the others.

It's not as bad as set out, they don't account in the same fashion, something along the lines of stadium non rugby earnings aren't recorded on the club's books. So okay they're making a loss, but things appear worse in many such reports than they actually are.

JM2K6 wrote:

Joost wrote:

Plastic Sarrie wrote:

Bath seem to love spending money on props they then proceed to injure forever. Best of luck to the lad.

He's a good player, and closer to where he's from, couldn't blame him going. Plus Bath is nicer than St Albans (although I'm not sure if it'd be any cheaper?)

Bath do have a prolific record of injuring their star players (though front rowers in particular) - a couple of seasons ago 1/3 of the starting XV was regularly made up of injury jokers

Good to see certain Quims fans getting on their high horses about Sarries (and Bath, allegedly) being cheats who are bringing rugby into disrepute - short memories eh boys...

Hmmm yes let's compare bloodgate (a practice we hardly invented) which ended with big fines and huge bans to Saracens literally reshaping the league with financial doping...

Let’s not forget the lengths Quims went to to try and cover it up and then tried to get Williams to take the fall for Deano’s actions. No, they didn’t invent the practice, but the club’s response to being caught out was shameful.

It’s interesting that Wray has said the disciplinary panel acknowledged that Sarries never deliberately sought to breach the cap or mislead anyone - the punishment seems somewhat harsh if that’s true!

Anyone get the sense this punsihment is an opening bid rather than the end of the matter? Wray’s lawyers will have had a bollocking this morning and will be expected to come back with something better by tomorrow. Invest in takeaways in the city...

Joost wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

Joost wrote:

Plastic Sarrie wrote:

Bath seem to love spending money on props they then proceed to injure forever. Best of luck to the lad.

He's a good player, and closer to where he's from, couldn't blame him going. Plus Bath is nicer than St Albans (although I'm not sure if it'd be any cheaper?)

Bath do have a prolific record of injuring their star players (though front rowers in particular) - a couple of seasons ago 1/3 of the starting XV was regularly made up of injury jokers

Good to see certain Quims fans getting on their high horses about Sarries (and Bath, allegedly) being cheats who are bringing rugby into disrepute - short memories eh boys...

Hmmm yes let's compare bloodgate (a practice we hardly invented) which ended with big fines and huge bans to Saracens literally reshaping the league with financial doping...

Let’s not forget the lengths Quims went to to try and cover it up and then tried to get Williams to take the fall for Deano’s actions. No, they didn’t invent the practice, but the club’s response to being caught out was shameful.

It’s interesting that Wray has said the disciplinary panel acknowledged that Sarries never deliberately sought to breach the cap or mislead anyone - the punishment seems somewhat harsh if that’s true!

Wray says anything to make Sarries look good.

But hey, if you want to believe that blood capsules are the same as years of blatant financial doping that ruin the entire concept of the sport as a level playing field then I suppose he's a credible source.

Joost wrote:
It’s interesting that Wray has said the disciplinary panel acknowledged that Sarries never deliberately sought to breach the cap or mislead anyone - the punishment seems somewhat harsh if that’s true!

Somewhere else I thought Wray said that they told them what they were doing and there was no complaint. Is that right?

croyals wrote:Anyone get the sense this punsihment is an opening bid rather than the end of the matter? Wray’s lawyers will have had a bollocking this morning and will be expected to come back with something better by tomorrow. Invest in takeaways in the city...

Inner Temple dude, hardly the City. Prices for a small beer will reveal the hourly charge rate for legal beagles.

In truth a little surprising, the scale of this. Wray has pumped a LOT of money into this and in so doing added substantially both to the 'glamour' of the Prem AND to the number of English rugby celebrities - it would have been easy to go down the route of buying in talent but.....

However, here we have the RFU stamping on the golden eggs and threatening to turn the goose into fois gras (fecking auto cat rectal didn't like that!). High stakes chess

ManInTheBar wrote:

croyals wrote:Anyone get the sense this punsihment is an opening bid rather than the end of the matter? Wray’s lawyers will have had a bollocking this morning and will be expected to come back with something better by tomorrow. Invest in takeaways in the city...

Inner Temple dude, hardly the City. Prices for a small beer will reveal the hourly charge rate for legal beagles.

In truth a little surprising, the scale of this. Wray has pumped a LOT of money into this and in so doing added substantially both to the 'glamour' of the Prem AND to the number of English rugby celebrities - it would have been easy to go down the route of buying in talent but.....

However, here we have the RFU stamping on the golden eggs and threatening to turn the goose into fois gras (fecking auto cat rectal didn't like that!). High stakes chess

The RFU aren't doing anything. This has very little to do with the RFU.

ManInTheBar wrote:

croyals wrote:Anyone get the sense this punsihment is an opening bid rather than the end of the matter? Wray’s lawyers will have had a bollocking this morning and will be expected to come back with something better by tomorrow. Invest in takeaways in the city...

Inner Temple dude, hardly the City. Prices for a small beer will reveal the hourly charge rate for legal beagles.

In truth a little surprising, the scale of this. Wray has pumped a LOT of money into this and in so doing added substantially both to the 'glamour' of the Prem AND to the number of English rugby celebrities - it would have been easy to go down the route of buying in talent but.....

However, here we have the RFU stamping on the golden eggs and threatening to turn the goose into fois gras (fecking auto cat rectal didn't like that!). High stakes chess

Err, while they have some academy graduates who've come very good and of whom they can rightly be proud, let's not pretend they haven't bought in talent.

Just the current squad - Billy V, Lozowski, Daly, Williams, Maitland, Lewington, Clark, Koch, Barritt, Figallo, Rhodes, Lamositele, Skelton, Wigglesworth. Possibly more whose backgrounds I'm less familiar with.

Now some of those, have been good bargain hunts on their part, but all were well established pros if not internationals when they were signed by Sarries.

Let's not also forget that the beginnings of this era of Sarries' success were the Saffacens days.

Has there been any information about whose businesses Wray invested in?

Remember hearing about Wolfpack lager (Wyles and Hargreaves) and Matt Stevens’ pie business. Assuming there are others, given the seasons quoted.

Joost wrote:Has there been any information about whose businesses Wray invested in?

Remember hearing about Wolfpack lager (Wyles and Hargreaves) and Matt Stevens’ pie business. Assuming there are others, given the seasons quoted.

Wiggy, Farell, the Vunipolas, all appear to have some sort of property investments with Wray - in these cases the businesswe appear to be set up first, then the players gain share of ownership

There's also quite a lot of joint house ownership, with it being unclear if any rent is paid

Wolfpack lager is a pretty good business, you can find it in a decent number of places in north London.

croyals wrote:Wolfpack lager is a pretty good business, you can find it in a decent number of places in north London.

Yeah, to be honest that and the stuff in that link is more likely to be above board. It's the low profile property ventures that would be more likely to raise alarm bells

croyals wrote:Wolfpack lager is a pretty good business, you can find it in a decent number of places in north London.

Well, that's what a few hundred thousand in startup money can do for a small business.

Joost wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

Joost wrote:

Plastic Sarrie wrote:

Bath seem to love spending money on props they then proceed to injure forever. Best of luck to the lad.

He's a good player, and closer to where he's from, couldn't blame him going. Plus Bath is nicer than St Albans (although I'm not sure if it'd be any cheaper?)

Bath do have a prolific record of injuring their star players (though front rowers in particular) - a couple of seasons ago 1/3 of the starting XV was regularly made up of injury jokers

Good to see certain Quims fans getting on their high horses about Sarries (and Bath, allegedly) being cheats who are bringing rugby into disrepute - short memories eh boys...

Hmmm yes let's compare bloodgate (a practice we hardly invented) which ended with big fines and huge bans to Saracens literally reshaping the league with financial doping...

Let’s not forget the lengths Quims went to to try and cover it up and then tried to get Williams to take the fall for Deano’s actions. No, they didn’t invent the practice, but the club’s response to being caught out was shameful.

It’s interesting that Wray has said the disciplinary panel acknowledged that Sarries never deliberately sought to breach the cap or mislead anyone - the punishment seems somewhat harsh if that’s true!

They should have been triple relegated

croyals wrote:Wolfpack lager is a pretty good business, you can find it in a decent number of places in north London.

When Wyles retired and said he was going to dedicate his time to Wolfpack Lager, I thought he was joking about becoming an alcoholic in retirement!

Double wrote:

croyals wrote:Wolfpack lager is a pretty good business, you can find it in a decent number of places in north London.

Well, that's what a few hundred thousand in startup money can do for a small business.

Those are the questions eh! I’m starting from the position there’s going to be clouds over it all. Why should Owen get a property venture but captain Brad has to fund his own tiki tonga?

Guess these sort of tricks have roots all the way back to the shamateurism era!

DragsterDriver wrote:

Double wrote:

croyals wrote:Wolfpack lager is a pretty good business, you can find it in a decent number of places in north London.

Well, that's what a few hundred thousand in startup money can do for a small business.

Those are the questions eh! I’m starting from the position there’s going to be clouds over it all. Why should Owen get a property venture but captain Brad has to fund his own tiki tonga?

You don't think Brad got any business help setting up? Maybe a loan at 0% interest? Fairly sure his coffee was sold at the stadium, pretty good audience to get started with for a budding business.

James Johnston, 3rd rate prop extraordinaire, went to Sarries and in no time had his own pie business selling in the stadium, left to go to wasps and his pie business seemingly disappeared? Not a bad way to "prop" up someones wages, give them a company with exclusive rights to selling in the stadium. I'm sure if he'd have been a loyal and successful team member, it'd have gained traction and probably spread over London etc, much like another business venture.

Raggs wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

Double wrote:

croyals wrote:Wolfpack lager is a pretty good business, you can find it in a decent number of places in north London.

Well, that's what a few hundred thousand in startup money can do for a small business.

Those are the questions eh! I’m starting from the position there’s going to be clouds over it all. Why should Owen get a property venture but captain Brad has to fund his own tiki tonga?

You don't think Brad got any business help setting up? Maybe a loan at 0% interest? Fairly sure his coffee was sold at the stadium, pretty good audience to get started with for a budding business.

James Johnston, 3rd rate prop extraordinaire, went to Sarries and in no time had his own pie business selling in the stadium, left to go to wasps and his pie business seemingly disappeared? Not a bad way to "prop" up someones wages, give them a company with exclusive rights to selling in the stadium. I'm sure if he'd have been a loyal and successful team member, it'd have gained traction and probably spread over London etc, much like another business venture.

I'm sure it's all dodgy as fcuk.

Following some twitter discussions on this and a Wuss supporter suggested they have no cap space to pick up any players Sarries might have to offload. Got me thinking: do weaker clubs really spend up to the cap on average players?

I’ve never thought about salaries but just imagined it was like a video game where you are paid around about what you’re worth as a player.

Nieghorn wrote:Following some twitter discussions on this and a Wuss supporter suggested they have no cap space to pick up any players Sarries might have to offload. Got me thinking: do weaker clubs really spend up to the cap on average players?

I’ve never thought about salaries but just imagined it was like a video game where you are paid around about what you’re worth as a player.

Either you add more people to the squad or you pay your best / most promising players more to increase their chances of staying at the club.

Nieghorn wrote:Following some twitter discussions on this and a Wuss supporter suggested they have no cap space to pick up any players Sarries might have to offload. Got me thinking: do weaker clubs really spend up to the cap on average players?

I’ve never thought about salaries but just imagined it was like a video game where you are paid around about what you’re worth as a player.

Until I got fed up of the waffle at the start I listened to the Flats and Shanks podcast, can't remember the episode but they discussed this and Flats said unequivocally that lower level clubs have to pay over the odds for even fairly average players, indicating it was a factor in wage inflation across the league. i.e. someone says to his club when it's time to re-negotiate 'So and so at ******* is on x, I'm much better so you need to give me y'

Joost wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

Joost wrote:

Plastic Sarrie wrote:

Bath seem to love spending money on props they then proceed to injure forever. Best of luck to the lad.

He's a good player, and closer to where he's from, couldn't blame him going. Plus Bath is nicer than St Albans (although I'm not sure if it'd be any cheaper?)

Bath do have a prolific record of injuring their star players (though front rowers in particular) - a couple of seasons ago 1/3 of the starting XV was regularly made up of injury jokers

Good to see certain Quims fans getting on their high horses about Sarries (and Bath, allegedly) being cheats who are bringing rugby into disrepute - short memories eh boys...

Hmmm yes let's compare bloodgate (a practice we hardly invented) which ended with big fines and huge bans to Saracens literally reshaping the league with financial doping...

Let’s not forget the lengths Quims went to to try and cover it up and then tried to get Williams to take the fall for Deano’s actions. No, they didn’t invent the practice, but the club’s response to being caught out was shameful.

It’s interesting that Wray has said the disciplinary panel acknowledged that Sarries never deliberately sought to breach the cap or mislead anyone - the punishment seems somewhat harsh if that’s true!

This post is a parody right?

sockwithaticket wrote:

Nieghorn wrote:Following some twitter discussions on this and a Wuss supporter suggested they have no cap space to pick up any players Sarries might have to offload. Got me thinking: do weaker clubs really spend up to the cap on average players?

I’ve never thought about salaries but just imagined it was like a video game where you are paid around about what you’re worth as a player.

Until I got fed up of the waffle at the start I listened to the Flats and Shanks podcast, can't remember the episode but they discussed this and Flats said unequivocally that lower level clubs have to pay over the odds for even fairly average players, indicating it was a factor in wage inflation across the league. i.e. someone says to his club when it's time to re-negotiate 'So and so at ******* is on x, I'm much better so you need to give me y'

Yikes! That's not healthy.

Stevens did not have a pie business

The catering outlets sold his pies from time to time.

Barritt's coffee company is him and a bloke called Justin Stockwell who's main business is coffee machines. I don't believe Wray is remotely involved.

Wolfpack is a great beer, and their pub is excellent.

That's nice for them. Wonder if they'd have gotten the same opportunities if Sarries were a mid table club having to pay competitive wages.

Dunno, but Wray didn't get involved with Wolfpack until 3 years after it started, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

Plastic Sarrie wrote:Stevens did not have a pie business

The catering outlets sold his pies from time to time.

Barritt's coffee company is him and a bloke called Justin Stockwell who's main business is coffee machines. I don't believe Wray is remotely involved.

Wolfpack is a great beer, and their pub is excellent.

Where did wolfpack start off selling? Where did Barritts brand start off selling?

Who said Stevens had a pie business? Johnston did. Setup remarkably soon after coming to sarries, and disappearing after he left.

Johnston may have lost weight, but that has not stopped him from branching into business by launching his own pie-making company.

He explained: “It’s just a little venture I’m working on and Saracens helped me set it up.

“We make beef and cheese pies and I launched them (100 samples in Sarries’ Olympic Bar) at the London Irish game last week. It’s something I’m looking at for life after rugby.

“I’ve thought about it for a while so it’s nice to get the ball rolling. It hasn’t got a name yet but I’m thinking of ‘JJ’s Pies’.”

Saracens helped him set it up, and sold his pies, and stopped selling his pies once he left...

England will face the Brave Blossoms in a two-Test series in Oita (4 July) and Kobe (11 July)

Premiership final is on the 20th June and assume most of the starters from the RWC will be rested so not a clue what kind of squad Eddie will take.

Hells Bells wrote:

England will face the Brave Blossoms in a two-Test series in Oita (4 July) and Kobe (11 July)

Premiership final is on the 20th June and assume most of the starters from the RWC will be rested so not a clue what kind of squad Eddie will take.

Personnell-wise I reckon we'll be in England XV/Saxons in all but name territory.

sockwithaticket wrote:

Hells Bells wrote:

England will face the Brave Blossoms in a two-Test series in Oita (4 July) and Kobe (11 July)

Premiership final is on the 20th June and assume most of the starters from the RWC will be rested so not a clue what kind of squad Eddie will take.

Personnell-wise I reckon we'll be in England XV/Saxons in all but name territory.

He confirmed that in the interviews after the finals didn't he, along with the comments about doing a slash and burn job on the squad for the 6n?

Brazil wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

Hells Bells wrote:

England will face the Brave Blossoms in a two-Test series in Oita (4 July) and Kobe (11 July)

Premiership final is on the 20th June and assume most of the starters from the RWC will be rested so not a clue what kind of squad Eddie will take.

Personnell-wise I reckon we'll be in England XV/Saxons in all but name territory.

He confirmed that in the interviews after the finals didn't he, along with the comments about doing a slash and burn job on the squad for the 6n?

Certainly remember the confirmation that the squad would be subject to alterations come the 6N.

I suppose, depending on what he does there, the Japan tour could be less Saxon-y than anticipated.

Could see some of the fringe members of the RWC squad go, something like the following (can you tell I’m bored at work):

Genge, LCD, Williams, Launchbury, Ewels, Shields, Ludlam, Dombrandt
Robson, Smith, Cokanasiga, Mills, Joseph, Thorley, Furbank