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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:04 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
I remember reading in The Times magazine donkeys years ago, and I mean probably at least 30 years ago, that Division 3 or 4 players (can't remember which) could expect to earn £50k on average. It was an interview with a player.

I would suggest 70k is way below what an average L1 player earns.


According to this article:

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowled ... id-so-much

"In 2014-15, the average League 1 player was paid just below £70,000 compared with an average"

That was 6 years ago. It is probably around 100k now.

Just found a good page, no idea how reliable it is but average wage of football players each week vs average wage of their fans:

https://www.footy.com/footballers-vs-th ... league-one


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:16 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
They’re getting paid a vast amount of money without being on furlough, despite their employers haemorrhaging money with no immediate prospect of income.


Not to mention potentially having to pay back millions in season ticket cash


Fans will be urged not to ask for refunds for the ‘good of the club’.

Fine for the local club coaching kids, not fine to keep pros in range rovers.


They certainly will, without much thought for the people whose wages have been cut/jobs lost, and can ill afford to pay for shit matches won't see.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 1:33 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:

This is it. The club men are wrong as well. I genuinely believe test rugby has a Wimbledon like status, People see Rugby internationals as an event to go to. They aren't interested in following the game. People follow their football club and will happily watch Test Rugby, Wimbledon, a big athletics event, the Boat Race.

Let's face it there isn't huge scope for Rugby to expand club audience. One of Harlequins old directors said the ideal place for a rugby club is a town with 100k and a surrounding urban area of 500k with no major football team. Because you can create a local identity and won't have the rival football brand for people to attend on the weekend. It's hard to attend a football game each week and a rugby game. It's easy to attend a football game most weeks and attend/watch England Rugby internationals and the odd big club final.

This is spot on. Club rugby is a provincial show by and large. It doesn't have a huge capacity for growth. Fwiw I am 'the rugby guy' of my group of mates (imagine the shite poured into their ears...) - mention the 6N and they'll all be there at the pub at 11. Mention I've got tickets to Twickers and £90 a pop is in my bank account before you know what's hit you. Fancy a few beers and going to watch Sarries? Not so much.

Insert top shelf banter about Sarries fans/lack of/salary cap here but you get the point.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:48 pm 
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croyals wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

This is it. The club men are wrong as well. I genuinely believe test rugby has a Wimbledon like status, People see Rugby internationals as an event to go to. They aren't interested in following the game. People follow their football club and will happily watch Test Rugby, Wimbledon, a big athletics event, the Boat Race.

Let's face it there isn't huge scope for Rugby to expand club audience. One of Harlequins old directors said the ideal place for a rugby club is a town with 100k and a surrounding urban area of 500k with no major football team. Because you can create a local identity and won't have the rival football brand for people to attend on the weekend. It's hard to attend a football game each week and a rugby game. It's easy to attend a football game most weeks and attend/watch England Rugby internationals and the odd big club final.

This is spot on. Club rugby is a provincial show by and large. It doesn't have a huge capacity for growth. Fwiw I am 'the rugby guy' of my group of mates (imagine the shite poured into their ears...) - mention the 6N and they'll all be there at the pub at 11. Mention I've got tickets to Twickers and £90 a pop is in my bank account before you know what's hit you. Fancy a few beers and going to watch Sarries? Not so much.

Insert top shelf banter about Sarries fans/lack of/salary cap here but you get the point.


Yep, the West Country teams are a good example of what EDF is talking about and having LI and Wasps play in half empty (at best) football stadiums of two unremarkable lower league teams makes the point about premiership teams establishing themselves in a football area.

Having said that, Tigers have a massive and loyal supporter base and have a premiership football team (quite literally) next door, so it is possible for an area to sustain both if the club’s identity is strong enough.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 1:02 pm 
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Joost wrote:
croyals wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

This is it. The club men are wrong as well. I genuinely believe test rugby has a Wimbledon like status, People see Rugby internationals as an event to go to. They aren't interested in following the game. People follow their football club and will happily watch Test Rugby, Wimbledon, a big athletics event, the Boat Race.

Let's face it there isn't huge scope for Rugby to expand club audience. One of Harlequins old directors said the ideal place for a rugby club is a town with 100k and a surrounding urban area of 500k with no major football team. Because you can create a local identity and won't have the rival football brand for people to attend on the weekend. It's hard to attend a football game each week and a rugby game. It's easy to attend a football game most weeks and attend/watch England Rugby internationals and the odd big club final.

This is spot on. Club rugby is a provincial show by and large. It doesn't have a huge capacity for growth. Fwiw I am 'the rugby guy' of my group of mates (imagine the shite poured into their ears...) - mention the 6N and they'll all be there at the pub at 11. Mention I've got tickets to Twickers and £90 a pop is in my bank account before you know what's hit you. Fancy a few beers and going to watch Sarries? Not so much.

Insert top shelf banter about Sarries fans/lack of/salary cap here but you get the point.


Yep, the West Country teams are a good example of what EDF is talking about and having LI and Wasps play in half empty (at best) football stadiums of two unremarkable lower league teams makes the point about premiership teams establishing themselves in a football area.

Having said that, Tigers have a massive and loyal supporter base and have a premiership football team (quite literally) next door, so it is possible for an area to sustain both if the club’s identity is strong enough.


Wasps actually have a pretty high home attendance by Prem standards (last season's average was a bit over 18,000 which this article alleges was second best in the Prem https://www.insidermedia.com/news/midlands/wasps-group-makes-first-profit-since-coventry-move) but their stadium is far too big and makes the numbers look bad. Like you say, if one of the better attended clubs can only about half fill a lower league football stadium, that speaks volumes about rugby's place in the sporting pecking order and its value as a product.

I recall reading that negotations for the next Prem TV deal have stalled with BT. Quite apart from anything else, the salary cap will have to come down if the TV revenue decreases. I don't see a queue of independent individuals willing to make up the shortfall for clubs. Particularly in a post-Covid 19 environment.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 3:56 pm 
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Burns to Japan, Goode (loan), Matthews and Kruis also possibly to Japan (the latter having been on the books for quite some time).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ttles.html


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 4:48 pm 
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Here's a sentence i never believed I'd say...

Really disappointed that Matthews is leaving, he's been really good for wasps this season.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:39 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Here's a sentence i never believed I'd say...

Really disappointed that Matthews is leaving, he's been really good for wasps this season.


Have they changed the rules on overseas players in Japan? If not Matthews heading over there seems weird, even if he's had a decent year


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:46 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Here's a sentence i never believed I'd say...

Really disappointed that Matthews is leaving, he's been really good for wasps this season.

I thought we could have kept him at Quins. While he has weaknesses he was our best lineout operator in both attack and defence and that's a skill we could really have done with.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:53 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Here's a sentence i never believed I'd say...

Really disappointed that Matthews is leaving, he's been really good for wasps this season.


He definitely brought up his average (though that was a low bar). Not sure I'd go as far as to say he'd been really good bar a couple of games.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:17 pm 
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geordie_6 wrote:
Burns to Japan, Goode (loan), Matthews and Kruis also possibly to Japan (the latter having been on the books for quite some time).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ttles.html


Would be a real shame re Kruis - still very much at the top of his game and first choice for England.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:20 pm 
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When does the Japanese league kick off?


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 7:15 pm 
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Joost wrote:
polyallstar wrote:
croyals wrote:
fishfoodie wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
People would rather watch paint dry.


Someone needs to make this clear to the players, (or at least their Agents), & clubs !

I've banged this drum for a while - it has been clear for years that rugby has massive delusions of grandeur. Christ knows how they get sustained by people who play in front of 5,000 at the AJ Bell but it seems rife. Premiership rugby is League One football without the big clubs (Sunderlands etc).


Do they not get paid equivalent of League One (plus a bit more TV money)? Let’s not pretend lower league football teams are the model to follow


Wiki says league 1 footballers earn, on average, just shy of £70k a year; I've seen estimates of £100-120k average for premiership rugby players (before you include international appearances etc).

I guess the fact that Twickenham gets 80,000 half-a-dozen times a year and the 6N gets a massive tv audience makes rugby suits believe that the club game has an untapped market to expand into


The salary cap makes it pretty easy to work out the Prem Rugby average

However don’t forget that prem rugby will get more money via TV than L1/L2 so it makers sense they earn more? Although prize money and promotion ‘potential’ need to be considered too tbf

Summary: dunno


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 11:11 am 
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I didn't see this coming. Look forward to some retro shellsuits

Quote:
The English sports brand will be the Official Technical Kit Partner from 1 September 2020, when the iconic double-diamond of Umbro will be worn by the England Men’s teams, Red Roses, Sevens and age grade teams.

Umbro will provide the team’s match kit, training wear and off-field kit as well as offering fans a full range of supporter wear including men’s, women’s and children’s ranges from 1 September 2020. Umbro join England Rugby next season with nearly a 100 years of experience in the development of performance products that have been tried and tested at elite level, across sports.

Renowned for its pedigree supporting professional teams, Umbro has a heritage in rugby union; having previously supported each of the home nations, multiple clubs and the only British & Irish Lions team to win a series in New Zealand, in 1971.
'Ready for rugby'

The brand’s extensive experience across sports and its pioneering approach to developing kit and rigorous testing has ensured Umbro is ready for rugby.

Umbro managing director Anthony Little said: “The partnership between Umbro and England Rugby from September is a seminal chapter in our history. The first time the England rugby team runs out onto the pitch, wearing the double-diamond logo, will be a proud moment for us, as an English brand.”

“Modern rugby is demanding but our approach at Umbro has always been to make sure our kits are fit for purpose and we have been working tirelessly to ensure that we meet those demands and deliver a kit that will perform for England Rugby.”

Simon Massie-Taylor, chief commercial officer for England Rugby added: “We are delighted to be entering this new chapter with Umbro as Official Technical Kit Partner from September and welcome them into the England Rugby family.

"Umbro has a rich heritage supporting English sports and share our values in dedication to high performance and innovation. We look forward to unveiling the new kit later this year.”


https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... it-partner


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 1:00 pm 
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I certainly won’t be wearing any shitty arse sports direct Umbro stash.

Lonsdale trainers next and Tap-Out caps.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 1:11 pm 
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Umbro made some decent England shirts back in the day - wouldn’t mind a more ‘classic’ design

Spoiler: show
Image


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:19 pm 
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Buy a cotton traders at the garden centre? :P

Should have gone Nike, Adidas, Canterbury it’s another dumb decision.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:57 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Buy a cotton traders at the garden centre? :P

Should have gone Nike, Adidas, Canterbury it’s another dumb decision.

Canterbury were outbid, not sure Nike or Adidas were in thre frame


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:59 pm 
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RFU set to lose £100m+ if next years 6N not played
Quote:
The Rugby Football Union’s chief executive Bill Sweeney has warned it would be a “catastrophe” if next year’s Six Nations is hit by coronavirus, admitting the organisation would need a government bailout if England do not play again until next summer.
Sweeney revealed the union is facing losses of at least £100m if England’s autumn internationals are played behind closed doors – a figure which rises to £122m if they are cancelled – and if next year’s Six Nations is similarly affected, he conceded: “We would have to come to the government for support.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/05/rfu-government-bailout-england-summer-2021-coronavirus


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:35 pm 
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SaintK wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Buy a cotton traders at the garden centre? :P

Should have gone Nike, Adidas, Canterbury it’s another dumb decision.

Canterbury were outbid, not sure Nike or Adidas were in thre frame


Penny rich, pound poor, when the ugly stuff is in the sale bin.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:36 pm 
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SaintK wrote:
RFU set to lose £100m+ if next years 6N not played
Quote:
The Rugby Football Union’s chief executive Bill Sweeney has warned it would be a “catastrophe” if next year’s Six Nations is hit by coronavirus, admitting the organisation would need a government bailout if England do not play again until next summer.
Sweeney revealed the union is facing losses of at least £100m if England’s autumn internationals are played behind closed doors – a figure which rises to £122m if they are cancelled – and if next year’s Six Nations is similarly affected, he conceded: “We would have to come to the government for support.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/05/rfu-government-bailout-england-summer-2021-coronavirus


The pro game shouldn’t get a penny until they cancel all player contracts.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:45 pm 
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I was thinking there are a number of ways they could raise funds before going to the government. I've got season tickets with a couple of local clubs, and I'd be willing to pay maybe double, maybe more to help support the game locally even absent of any games. And the RFU might want to ask fans directly for support. I don't think I'd go as far as saying I want player contracts cancelled before putting in any money, but they would for me need a sensible limit on what someone could be paid for a duration they'd be receiving extra support, off the top of my head around £250k seems a reasonable top level, that's still high but lots of people in the game will have higher mortgage payments than some, perhaps school fees and the like.

But rugby does have fans that have access to money, and asking those fans if they're in a position to do so before going to the government seems a better way to do it. Okay that's not every fan


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 4:07 pm 
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This tweet from Rugby Pass on the kit announcement has had me in stitches: https://twitter.com/RugbyPass/status/12 ... 96288?s=20


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 4:22 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
This tweet from Rugby Pass on the kit announcement has had me in stitches: https://twitter.com/RugbyPass/status/12 ... 96288?s=20

:lol:

That's rather good


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 4:40 pm 
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I get that it's a "football" thing (though maybe some people just need to get over it?), but people were also talking up Under Armour as a better option?

I would more happily wear something that looks like this, which is just like the RWC 19 shirt ...

Image


... than these:

Spoiler: show
Image


Image


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 7:31 pm 
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It'll be cheap shit. I actually rather like Canterbury stuff :((


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 pm 
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However much they outbid Adidas by will be more than offset by the fact that nobody will buy them.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 9:46 pm 
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Punter15 wrote:
However much they outbid Adidas by will be more than offset by the fact that nobody will buy them.


Yeah that was how I see it.

If we do get pro games behind closed doors they need fake crowd noise, the NRL game I watched was a poor training run in silence :(


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 12:01 pm 
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Not seen much about Ellis Genge and his new players union.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:36 pm 
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As if anyone has an England shirt that isn't some sort of old school cotton number


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:36 am 
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... -lockdown/

Can anybody copy and paste this?


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:44 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/05/06/rfu-working-plans-no-scrums-tackles-shorter-matches-post-lockdown/

Can anybody copy and paste this?


Top tip to get round the telegraph paywall - reload the page, the whole page will briefly appear, hit ctrl+A to copy all, copy and paste to word (or PR)

You’re welcome


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:47 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/05/06/rfu-working-plans-no-scrums-tackles-shorter-matches-post-lockdown/

Can anybody copy and paste this?



RFU working on plans for no scrums or tackles and shorter matches in post-lockdown grass-roots plan

Exclusive: Scrums and tackles could be the last aspects to return in the community game due to the high-intensity contact involved

By Gavin Mairs, Chief Rugby Union Correspondent 6 May 2020 • 4:47pm

Steam rises from the scrum during the round three Mitre 10 Cup match between Counties Manukau and Taranaki - RFU working on plans for no scrums or tackles and shorter matches in post-lockdown grass-roots plan

Image
The heavy contact at scrums is more likely to spread the Covid-19 virus than other aspects of the sport Credit: GETTY IMAGES


Plans are being drawn up for rugby union to be played without scrummaging, tackling and mauling next season to increase the likelihood of some form of the game returning if the Covid-19 lockdown is eased.

An internal working group at the Rugby Football Union is understood to be working on a number of variations of what is being described as ‘rugby activity’ – focusing on reducing the levels of contact in the sport to encourage players to return to their clubs next season even if full contact is not permissible because of continuing social distancing measures.

A range of phased activities are being considered, starting from social-distanced training to forms of competitive touch rugby and a shortened version of the game similar to X-rugby, played on half a pitch with limited contact.

Given the intensity of the contact involved in scrummaging, tackling and mauling, there is a growing acceptance that these will be the last aspects of the sport that are allowed to return in the community game and may not be possible until next year.

“By rugby activity we are definitely not talking about 15-a-side, full-on contact rugby,” said Steve Grainger, the RFU’s director of rugby development.

“There are a whole range of activities that you could create without having 16 people in a scrum.

“That is probably the most invasive and intensive form of contact that we are going to have. Or a pile of people in a ruck.

“Those are the things I think that are quite hard to see your way past with the sort of virus that we have had. They seem like they will be the last things to come back.

“We are looking at staging posts all the way along that – from a situation where a group of people can start to handle a ball together through to a situation where a group of people can start to challenge another group of people with a ball in their hands.

“I think we will get to a situation with a non-contact or limited contact variant of the game such as X-rugby. The return of contact activity will then engineer when the competitive programme can start.”
There are also concerns within the governing body that even if Government directives allow rugby to return to full contact next season, players may be put off returning because of the public health concerns.

A nationwide consultation process across England is also expected to be rolled out over the summer to gauge the level of interest from grass-roots players to return to full contact rugby.

"Even when [full contact] is permitted, it will be assessing people’s appetite to actually engage in it,” Grainger added.

“If we are going to try to get 30 people back onto a community rugby pitch in a local community somewhere and 16 of them plus two scrum-halves know that they have got to get pretty close to each other on a fairly regular basis, you only need 25 per cent of them to say ‘no thanks’ and all of a sudden you have not got a game.”

“Once lockdown starts to get lifted the other piece of work we will start to gradually do is talk to and hear from players about what they feel is their degree of appetite and tolerance to get back involved.

“We are reckoning that we are going to need between four to six weeks from contact training to be able to get going to competitive rugby happening. There will probably be some differential between National One and Level 12 because the demands on the players will be very different.”

The return of mini and junior rugby, the areas that are generally thriving in most grass-roots clubs, is also uncertain because of parental concerns.

“Whatever happens, 2020-21 is going to be a transition season,” Grainger added. “If we have a group of nine-year-olds who play no rugby because parents don’t want them in that environment, we have got to keep them engaged, interested and motivated in the game and if we do that we have to have every confidence they will come back in the following season.”

Another RFU working group is also examining competition structures from National One and below if the season is not able to start as scheduled, including the worst case scenario of abandonment.

“We have a couple of groups established who were already looking at the options and scenarios for competition programmes, one in the age-grade game and one in the adult game because again clearly if we can commence in September, the programme at least can commence,” Grainger added.

“But if we get into October, or worse still into January, the pressure on the season, the position of cup and representative rugby will have to be carefully considered.

“That group is going to have to consider everything from a fully operational normal league programme right through to total abandonment of the league programme and just let clubs play when they can.”


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:50 am 
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Joost wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/05/06/rfu-working-plans-no-scrums-tackles-shorter-matches-post-lockdown/

Can anybody copy and paste this?


Top tip to get round the telegraph paywall - reload the page, the whole page will briefly appear, hit ctrl+A to copy all, copy and paste to word (or PR)

You’re welcome


I’ll try that on the MacBook :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:51 am 
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Thanks Dinsdale- certainly matches up with my expectations unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:04 am 
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Pro's playing tag rugby :D.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:05 am 
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croyals wrote:
As if anyone has an England shirt that isn't some sort of old school cotton number


My longsleeve is actually one of the recent canterbury ones. Very plain, just the 02 and Canterbury logos in addition to the rose. Otherwise I've got 2 polo shirts as those tend to be even plainer with just the country emblem. One of those is based on the lovely throwback kit we donned against Wales in 2010.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:08 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Thanks Dinsdale- certainly matches up with my expectations unfortunately.

Yes. Glorified tag or touch rugby!!!


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:10 am 
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Might get some views out of those truly in Premiership withdrawal, but I can't say it sounds appealing. I'm clearly not desperate enough yet.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:10 am 
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No junior rugby until a vaccine or an effective treatment. If that’s correct rugby is pretty much done for.


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