The Australian Politics Thread

All things Rugby

Whos Going to Lead the Labor Rabble

Albo
7
35%
Plibbers
1
5%
Bowen
1
5%
Chalmers
4
20%
Uncle Tony
1
5%
Clive Palmer
3
15%
George Smith
3
15%
 
Total votes: 20

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MungoMan
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by MungoMan »

Bindi wrote:
Redsfan wrote:Comrades, looks like the Whitlam letters will be released. Good times.
:thumbup: Glad you're still with us, comrade.
And I am, in equal proportions, surprised and gratified.

I had feared Redsfan may have hurled himself from a lofty prominence consequent to the Reds’ performances of the last few seasons.
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Taranaki Snapper
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Taranaki Snapper »

guy smiley wrote:If you guys are interested in stepping aside from your academic one upping for a sec, you may be interested to know the Federal govt has announced it is scrapping Robodebt and refunding all funds gathered by the scheme.

Like, wowsers. That’s been a cluster and a half.
the class action will proceed and how much did these dicks spend on legally defending the indefensible?
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Ali's Choice
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

Interesting to scan The Australian online this morning. Not a single mention of the government's $800 million Robodebt farce, but multiples stories demanding Industrial Relations 'reform' and a lengthy Op-ed article demanding wage freezes for the public sector. It's almost like the News Ltd press were pushing a conservative agenda?

Do conservatives forget that our economic woes prior to COVID were largely a result of stagnat wage growth putting pressure on demand?
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kiwigreg369
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Do conservatives forget that our economic woes prior to COVID were largely a result of stagnat wage growth putting pressure on demand?
Interesting times in this.

Wages are stagnant as they are high and (internationally) uncompetitive. Raising wages without increase s in output don’t make sense - business can’t sustain. So paying more for the same is a tough ask. I closed a function in Sydney and moved it to India / China / Philippines before Christmas- usual wage arbitration- but also to a new team in Japan (japan was cheaper that Aus).

So I’m sure News Corp are pushing a right wing agenda - it’s what they do (in addition to appealing to mungo’s). This whole IR thing is funny - Libs puked as couldn’t get through... and they still expect to win this one and break Union/ bargaining power.

One bright hope is that Covid may actually increase domestic demand and even things like manufacturing - which could grow some businesses and drive demand.

But back to wages - they’re too high, hence low growth.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

kiwigreg369 wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote: Do conservatives forget that our economic woes prior to COVID were largely a result of stagnat wage growth putting pressure on demand?
Interesting times in this.

Wages are stagnant as they are high and (internationally) uncompetitive. Raising wages without increase s in output don’t make sense - business can’t sustain. So paying more for the same is a tough ask. I closed a function in Sydney and moved it to India / China / Philippines before Christmas- usual wage arbitration- but also to a new team in Japan (japan was cheaper that Aus).

So I’m sure News Corp are pushing a right wing agenda - it’s what they do (in addition to appealing to mungo’s). This whole IR thing is funny - Libs puked as couldn’t get through... and they still expect to win this one and break Union/ bargaining power.

One bright hope is that Covid may actually increase domestic demand and even things like manufacturing - which could grow some businesses and drive demand.

But back to wages - they’re too high, hence low growth.
Apart from the fact that Productivity keeps increasing. Wages share from this productivity has decreased.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

kiwigreg369 wrote:But back to wages - they’re too high, hence low growth.
I guess it all depends if you're an employee or an employer.

As an aside, are there many examples of countries where the wealth and standard of living of citizens was increased by cutting wages?
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

Ali's Choice wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:But back to wages - they’re too high, hence low growth.
I guess it all depends if you're an employee or an employer.

As an aside, are there many examples of countries where the wealth and standard of living of citizens was increased by cutting wages?
IPA theory - all about the shareholders.
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kiwinoz
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwinoz »

Wages may be too high but so are the costs.
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guy smiley
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

‘Wages are too high’...

Sorry, but piss off. They’re not... the comparison is drawn against the cost of exploited labour overseas that doesn’t enjoy the protections derived from 100 years of industrial struggle. To suggest that wages must be lowered in order to ‘compete’ is to engage in a race to the bottom regarding human rights and exploitation. It also ignores the massive escalation of corporate profit and executive pay... two factors that blow the wages too high argument right out of the sewage pond.

Australian labour efficiency and productivity has been on the rise consistently for years. Poor management techniques and short sighted pursuit of profit over evolution is a much greater problem... and the return to a robust labour protection mechanism including a workplace umpire with real power over both employer bodies and unions is essential.

Wages too high is a cop out, neoliberal hogwash.
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kiwigreg369
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

GS / Pat - where is evidence of improved productivity, what have you seen, read? I would like to read - especially it is by sector/ industry.

AC - I was an employee as well, that employed people (so to them I was the employer).
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kiwigreg369
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

BTW - I was reading things live this - https://www.afr.com/technology/wages-hu ... 619-p51zbc

Where productivity growth is lower than wage growth. That combined with high base indicate issues in achieving growth.

GS - see the improvements from mining industry - you might be seeing more of that
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guy smiley
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Here’s a contrasting perspective (that corrects my inaccurate claim about consistency)...

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/australi ... e-economy/

Australia has managed consistent improvement when the Coalition aren’t setting policy.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

I think you need to turn the question around. What will companies do with extra all this extra productivity?

It seems very clear that it is just a term for "work for less pay".
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kiwigreg369
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Pat you always turn the question around...

Anyway - this goes to your point - https://www.theguardian.com/business/gr ... e_btn_link

Highlights how less earnings are coming through to households. Yes, corporates are making more profit which is going to shareholders ... maybe...
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

I read that article when it was originally published.

TBH, it doesn't really invalidate my point
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Ali's Choice
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

So despite corporate Australia making record profits, and the gap between the wealthiest and poorest Australian growing faster than at any time in our modern history, kiwigreg is advocating for wage cuts? :roll:
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kiwigreg369
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Pat - I think it agrees with your comment.

AC - for a teacher your comprehension is poor. I haven’t argued for wage cuts, I’ve said they’re too high (in the context of wage growth).
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Redsfan
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Redsfan »

MungoMan wrote:
Bindi wrote:
Redsfan wrote:Comrades, looks like the Whitlam letters will be released. Good times.
:thumbup: Glad you're still with us, comrade.
And I am, in equal proportions, surprised and gratified.

I had feared Redsfan may have hurled himself from a lofty prominence consequent to the Reds’ performances of the last few seasons.
Thanks fellas. I was alarmed to learn that I hadn't posted in about 18 months. I pop in from time to time, but there hasn't been much to chat about. Work is generally too busy to post as well :(

Anyhow, the idea that wages in Australia are too low is just absurd. You can barely eke out a living in any of the major cities if you're on or under the national median, and starving the economy of what little demand is left during a crisis would cause a complete economic collapse. Wages have not kept up with productivity increases for decades, so the idea that wage increases should only now be tied to productivity increases is a complete red herring. This is all about stamping on what's left of union power in this country.

IMO, unions should focus on legislative change to ensure that only members are covered by enterprise agreements, all other workers should be on the award.
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guy smiley
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

It’s good to see this thread return to a more sensibly centrist direction after a protracted push into a more radical hardline Right dominated discourse :thumbup:

Any word on the Whitlam letters yet?
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kiwigreg369
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwigreg369 »

Reds - it’s a bit chicken and egg though.
Raise wages, raise costs, raises prices, worsen cost of living etc..
Raise wages, raise costs, reduce profits, impact super schemes etc...

In my view the fundamentals are more fundamental:
- size and nature of cities (Including immigration)
- stupid tax breaks prolong up the house building industry
- inability to extract community value out of mining profits

That said peoples buying patterns and then need for the latest 70 inch tv on your jet ski is hard to earn for ...
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

kiwigreg369 wrote:Pat - I think it agrees with your comment.

AC - for a teacher your comprehension is poor. I haven’t argued for wage cuts, I’ve said they’re too high (in the context of wage growth).
This sentence makes no sense. By advocating for jobs to be moved offshore, you're effectively lowering wages by reducing available jobs. Making it a seller's market.

Do you not agree that the massive gains in productivity have all gone to Shareholders and executives, with little "trickling down" to the workers?
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guy smiley
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

kiwigreg369 wrote:Reds - it’s a bit chicken and egg though.
Raise wages, raise costs, raises prices, worsen cost of living etc..
Raise wages, raise costs, reduce profits, impact super schemes etc...

In my view the fundamentals are more fundamental:
- size and nature of cities (Including immigration)
- stupid tax breaks prolong up the house building industry
- inability to extract community value out of mining profits

That said peoples buying patterns and then need for the latest 70 inch tv on your jet ski is hard to earn for ...
Fair enough and I particularly agree with the second part of your post. There’s a sort of philosophy underpinning economic structure here that suggests there are levels of entitlement. The tax system has loopholes designed into it to reward wealth accumulation for instance, with the housing market the obvious example. Likewise, business is effectively being sponsored by wage earners and that is rationalised by the creating jobs argument, something Ng that doesn’t stand up to serious scrutiny.

I reckon a massive overhaul of the taxation system is in order with revenue collection spread right across the board and an underpinning philosophy that says everyone pulls their weight and everyone shares the benefits through healthcare, education and the like.

That makes me a dirty commie though, right.
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kiwinoz
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwinoz »

Nearly 3 months work from home and possibly another three is being strongly suggested (US Corporate).

Still not allowed to visit client sites without high level approval :(

I am f@#king over 6 hour on zoom days
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

guy smiley wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:Reds - it’s a bit chicken and egg though.
Raise wages, raise costs, raises prices, worsen cost of living etc..
Raise wages, raise costs, reduce profits, impact super schemes etc...

In my view the fundamentals are more fundamental:
- size and nature of cities (Including immigration)
- stupid tax breaks prolong up the house building industry
- inability to extract community value out of mining profits

That said peoples buying patterns and then need for the latest 70 inch tv on your jet ski is hard to earn for ...
Fair enough and I particularly agree with the second part of your post. There’s a sort of philosophy underpinning economic structure here that suggests there are levels of entitlement. The tax system has loopholes designed into it to reward wealth accumulation for instance, with the housing market the obvious example. Likewise, business is effectively being sponsored by wage earners and that is rationalised by the creating jobs argument, something Ng that doesn’t stand up to serious scrutiny.

I reckon a massive overhaul of the taxation system is in order with revenue collection spread right across the board and an underpinning philosophy that says everyone pulls their weight and everyone shares the benefits through healthcare, education and the like.

That makes me a dirty commie though, right.

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Farva
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Farva »

kiwinoz wrote:Nearly 3 months work from home and possibly another three is being strongly suggested (US Corporate).

Still not allowed to visit client sites without high level approval :(

I am f@#king over 6 hour on zoom days
Im in the same boat.
And senior management are getting dozens of requests to attend site each day so there is no real oversight there, its just a tick box - there is no value add to it really. We are getting something like 25% of staff back to the office in the coming weeks but I wont be one of them - I dont need to be there and anticipate that I will never be back at the office full time. I anticipate work from home 2 to 3 days a week from now on - I dont mind that, just get to the office to connect to the team, get out from Friday beers and go to key client meetings.

Was just talking to someone about that. The city businesses set up to cater for office workers will be hammered, while the suburban cafes, etc will make a killing.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

My next Contract will be a similar ratio - I only go into the office now to meet with Builders onsite.

It's likely finally broken the "Must be in to be working" mentality - the banking sector seem to be embracing it the most.

I have a depressed immune system so not taking any risks
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Sensible Stephen
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Sensible Stephen »

Farva wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:Nearly 3 months work from home and possibly another three is being strongly suggested (US Corporate).

Still not allowed to visit client sites without high level approval :(

I am f@#king over 6 hour on zoom days
Im in the same boat.
And senior management are getting dozens of requests to attend site each day so there is no real oversight there, its just a tick box - there is no value add to it really. We are getting something like 25% of staff back to the office in the coming weeks but I wont be one of them - I dont need to be there and anticipate that I will never be back at the office full time. I anticipate work from home 2 to 3 days a week from now on - I dont mind that, just get to the office to connect to the team, get out from Friday beers and go to key client meetings.

Was just talking to someone about that. The city businesses set up to cater for office workers will be hammered, while the suburban cafes, etc will make a killing.
It will be interesting to see where we are at in 18 months time.

Will what you describe above be the new norm, or will we drift back to 5 days a week in the office.

I think we will slowly return to 5 days a week in the office, pre-covid behaviours.

I am not enjoying working from home, as like kiwinoz, more than half my days are taken up purely with MS Teams meetings. What would be 5 minute informal catchups in the office are now 30 minute meetings that go on and on. Never have time to actually do work.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

Sensible Stephen wrote: What would be 5 minute informal catchups in the office are now 30 minute meetings that go on and on. Never have time to actually do work.
There are plenty of online resources for creating short meetings.

I regularly cut mine short if we've discussed everything - people are glad to get the time back.
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UncleFB
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Sensible Stephen wrote:
Farva wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:Nearly 3 months work from home and possibly another three is being strongly suggested (US Corporate).

Still not allowed to visit client sites without high level approval :(

I am f@#king over 6 hour on zoom days
Im in the same boat.
And senior management are getting dozens of requests to attend site each day so there is no real oversight there, its just a tick box - there is no value add to it really. We are getting something like 25% of staff back to the office in the coming weeks but I wont be one of them - I dont need to be there and anticipate that I will never be back at the office full time. I anticipate work from home 2 to 3 days a week from now on - I dont mind that, just get to the office to connect to the team, get out from Friday beers and go to key client meetings.

Was just talking to someone about that. The city businesses set up to cater for office workers will be hammered, while the suburban cafes, etc will make a killing.
It will be interesting to see where we are at in 18 months time.

Will what you describe above be the new norm, or will we drift back to 5 days a week in the office.

I think we will slowly return to 5 days a week in the office, pre-covid behaviours.

I am not enjoying working from home, as like kiwinoz, more than half my days are taken up purely with MS Teams meetings. What would be 5 minute informal catchups in the office are now 30 minute meetings that go on and on. Never have time to actually do work.
I'm the opposite from you, loving WFH and way more productive, plus I get to walk in the sunlight. We have Slack so have our informal catch ups that way and a once week meeting.

I get interrupted too much at the office by people asking me stuff they can find in 20 seconds themselves.

We're going back June 22 and I'm already annoyed, I just wanted to get through the winter WFH so I could keep up my daylight walks.
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by wamberal99 »

Sensible Stephen wrote:I am not enjoying working from home, as like kiwinoz, more than half my days are taken up purely with MS Teams meetings. What would be 5 minute informal catchups in the office are now 30 minute meetings that go on and on. Never have time to actually do work.
One technique that I used was that everybody had to stand for the duration of the meeting. I suppose it all depends on whether the meetings are spontaneous, or organised? If they are organised, the organiser can set the rules, which should include time limits, and clear leadership to ensure that everybody who needs to can have a say, briefly and without interruption.
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

wamberal99 wrote:
Sensible Stephen wrote:I am not enjoying working from home, as like kiwinoz, more than half my days are taken up purely with MS Teams meetings. What would be 5 minute informal catchups in the office are now 30 minute meetings that go on and on. Never have time to actually do work.
One technique that I used was that everybody had to stand for the duration of the meeting. I suppose it all depends on whether the meetings are spontaneous, or organised? If they are organised, the organiser can set the rules, which should include time limits, and clear leadership to ensure that everybody who needs to can have a say, briefly and without interruption.
Can't you just shut your laptop lid. If you make out that you have short daily internet cut outs you'll be fine. :D
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kiwinoz
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwinoz »

Our office block in Brisbane had a cafe downstairs and within 100m close to 40 coffee/cafe/lunch places in a 100m radius. At least half were struggling pre CoVid as there were quite a few new places (replacing the failed one before). I dont know how many will still be left especially if they were still paying rent.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

UncleFB wrote:
I'm the opposite from you, loving WFH and way more productive, plus I get to walk in the sunlight. We have Slack so have our informal catch ups that way and a once week meeting.

I get interrupted too much at the office by people asking me stuff they can find in 20 seconds themselves.

We're going back June 22 and I'm already annoyed, I just wanted to get through the winter WFH so I could keep up my daylight walks.
I've worked from home for long periods before as a Tech. You always get plenty more done without walkups.

I log out of Teams if I need to concentrate.

It's doubly fun for me as it seems to have finally cracked the Bums on seats mentality, and also highlighted the people who thought that way don't generate a lot of productivity themselves.

Re Bolded part, they can't legally force you back 100% at present. FWO Have legislated that and the Premier has confirmed it
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Farva »

Im having a tonne of MS Teams meetings but I would be doing these meetings anyway. I actually find it a little easier - if Im not involved in the immediate conversation then I can do something else while still listening in for when I am needed again. In the office I cant do other things while that conversation happens. If I lead the meeting then I would be there anyway and am focused regardless.

There are often meetings for things that could be killed off quickly by a conversation, but largely they are killed off by a conversation - I can still call someone for a 30 second chat.
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kiwinoz
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by kiwinoz »

A lot of meetings seem to be from people you used to be able to ignore now they sneak it in under "collaboration" . Most of these could be sent as an email or if they really wish a pdf of their over designed PowerPoint.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

And channels under teams is the way to go - It synchs to Sharepoint and has all the information from the chats.

Great stuff :D
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I'm the opposite from you, loving WFH and way more productive, plus I get to walk in the sunlight. We have Slack so have our informal catch ups that way and a once week meeting.

I get interrupted too much at the office by people asking me stuff they can find in 20 seconds themselves.

We're going back June 22 and I'm already annoyed, I just wanted to get through the winter WFH so I could keep up my daylight walks.
I've worked from home for long periods before as a Tech. You always get plenty more done without walkups.

I log out of Teams if I need to concentrate.

It's doubly fun for me as it seems to have finally cracked the Bums on seats mentality, and also highlighted the people who thought that way don't generate a lot of productivity themselves.

Re Bolded part, they can't legally force you back 100% at present. FWO Have legislated that and the Premier has confirmed it
My boss brought me over from another job and our parent company is who want us to come back to work ... I don't want to be the catalyst for him being in confrontation with the CEO.

I might push for a work from home day a week though.

I had a WFH job for 10 years before moving to Oz, took me a long time to get used to going to an office each day.
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Pat the Ex Mat
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by Pat the Ex Mat »

I have RA so will always use that in any conversation about full-time returning.

This contract ends in July so I'm only going in for cutovers.

The next one will be odd from an interview POV I think

Interestingly, the company I am at now at a Zero WFH policy and have really embraced it. They are closing floors off and looking to not return to 100% office based.
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

So, ScoMo shows up in Googong to hold one of those staged ‘pressers’ announcing something on the side of the road...

and the homeowner steps out of his front door, interrupts very politely and says please, cmon fellas, I’ve just reseeded that forcing the circus off his lawn and the footpath :lol: :lol:

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-06- ... 21544?nw=0
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Re: The Australian Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

guy smiley wrote:So, ScoMo shows up in Googong to hold one of those staged ‘pressers’ announcing something on the side of the road...

and the homeowner steps out of his front door, interrupts very politely and says please, cmon fellas, I’ve just reseeded that forcing the circus off his lawn and the footpath :lol: :lol:

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-06- ... 21544?nw=0
:lol:
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