Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

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Blackrock Bullet
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

Seriously that child's prospects are to be sent begging door to door with her mother with an empty pram for the next 15 years.

The same woman with a horrible tash has been begging or selling the big issue at the same spot outside Blackrock Shopping Centre for as long as I can remember. How is this allowed?
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

danthefan wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
danthefan wrote:Ridiculous stuff really. Apparently the Gardai have to believe the child is in imminent danger in order to take them from the family without a court order. Apparently here there was little or nothing to suggest the child was in danger.
Eh she was with gypos
She is a gypo.


Sorry lads, just not mad on the state going around stealing children.
Why? They're Romas. Normal families are fine.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by merry! »

:lol:

oops.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by alliswell »

Malahide Mullet wrote:
alliswell wrote:Racists, racists everywhere.

Where?!?
See?
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

The re-positioning of the media has begun
Roma: myth, suspicion and prejudice
As Roma families are accused of abducting children in Greece and Ireland, we should beware of persecuting an ancient people

A Roma girl at a migrants’ encampment near Paris. The Third Reich regarded Roma as racially impure; an estimated one million died in concentration camps



By Peter Stanford

8:57PM BST 23 Oct 2013

It is a measure of the sensitivity of a topic that any nomenclature you use risks causing offence. So, in writing about the two cases of alleged child abduction in Greece and Ireland that have made headlines this week, should I revert to childhood and say gipsies, a word used back then only with negative overtones by my parents and in story books? Or do I say travellers, imitating the young, radical curate in our Catholic parish who brought a group of families, whose caravans were parked nearby, to join us for Mass (and who was pilloried for his trouble)?

Or is it better – as I did earlier this year on a trip to Romania for the Telegraph to investigate the imminent removal of migration restrictions on that country – to opt for Roma, the politically correct collective noun I had gleaned from the EU’s current “Decade of Roma Inclusion” initiative? “Will you stop using that word,” my translator rebuked me. “That’s why the whole of Europe thinks all Romanians are gipsies.”

Roma make up fewer than 10 per cent of Romanians and face, as I observed, pretty naked prejudice and hostility in that country. A borderless Europe should, in theory, favour their itinerant lifestyle, yet it seems there are few places that offer any sort of welcome. After another allegation of child abduction levelled against Roma in Naples in 2008, their camps were attacked by a mob. Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, responded by announcing all 150,000 Roma in Italy had to be fingerprinted.

Europe’s estimated 10 million Roma are so called because of their shared Romani language (with many regional and national dialects). “That the history of our people must be sought in our language has become something of a cliché, but to a great extent it holds true,” writes Ian Hancock (Romani name Yanko le Redzosko), a British-born academic who is director of Romani Studies at the University of Texas.

In Germany and many parts of central Europe, the Roma population is known as Sinti. In France, it’s Manush or Manouche. In Britain, some, such as the writer and educationalist Robert Dawson, still prefer gipsy (a word said to derive from a misunderstanding that identified them as Egyptians). Others go for Romanichal gipsies. And then there are the travellers, mainly of Irish origin, who insistently see themselves as a separate group. But this, says the novelist Louise Doughty, herself of Romani ancestry, can be “an artificial distinction” used by those far-Right groups who target Roma.

Even the origins of the Roma are hotly disputed. The standard line is that they are the descendants of a group of nomadic Indians (some say musicians) who travelled to Persia in the fifth century, and thereafter spread out across the lands of the Byzantine empire and into what is now eastern Europe. There are numerous sightings in early texts – the Irish friar Simon Fitzsimons, travelling round the eastern Mediterranean in 1332, writes of a people he calls “Indians… all of whom have much in common with crows and charcoal”. Already, it seems, the Roma were not getting a good press.

The Indian connection, though, is not accepted by all. The overlap between Romani and Indian dialects has been picked away at by Romani academics and often rejected in favour of a more tenuous connection with the East. It is, arguably, precisely such vagueness that has allowed outsiders – gadje, as non-Roma are called in Romani – to project their own stories and stereotypes on to the Roma and, in the process, often demonise a way of life.

“If the words gipsy or traveller were replaced with Muslim, gay, lesbian, Asian or Jew, most decent citizens would not talk in such negative terms,” says Isaac Blake, director of the Cardiff-based Romani Cultural and Arts Company. “We need to respect a long-standing heritage and culture. We need to learn more about marginalised groups, reach out and accept, not base our judgments on ignorance and fear. If we condemn Roma, gipsies and travellers, we are simply keeping the doors open for wider prejudice.”

In a world that penalises discrimination of almost every type, his argument is that society makes a special exemption for the Roma and drags its feet in shaking off the baggage of the past. Friar Fitzsimons writing 700 years ago of Roma as crows (collective name: “a murder”) is hardly a positive image, while his mention of charcoal sets up a colour contrast with white Europeans that resonates to this day. The Greek press has labelled Maria – the young girl “rescued” from Christos Salis and Eleftheria Dimopoulou, the gipsy couple who had claimed her as their own – as “the blonde angel”.

It was the blonde hair and blue eyes of the seven-year-old taken by police from a traveller family at Tallaght, west of Dublin, that caused anonymous callers to the Irish police to suspect she had been kidnapped. Geneticists are clear that two parents with jet-black hair are able to produce a blond child, if they have blond ancestors. How else to explain the number of blond, blue-eyed Sicilians?

The “blood libel” of medieval times – when Christians believed that Jews in their midst were kidnapping young children and sacrificing them so as to eat and drink their blood at Passover – caused pogroms and may ultimately have fed into the Holocaust. Yet it has been shown to have had no basis in fact. Anyone suggesting it today would be ridiculed – even arrested.

Similar myths were told of the Roma for centuries in the same Church-dominated society. They, too, were routinely accused of child kidnap – even though, as Thomas Acton, not Roma but Britain’s first professor of Romani Studies, based at Greenwich University, has argued emphatically: “I know of no documented case of Roma/gipsy/travellers stealing a non-gipsy child anywhere.” And the Roma community, too, suffered appallingly at the hands of the Nazis, with an estimated one million being murdered in concentration camps. err I found a case last night

Isaac Blake puts the re-emergence of child-stealing allegations in Greece and Ireland down to both countries’ perilous economic situation. “The revival of the medieval myth around gipsy child-stealing comes when Greece is going through its worst crisis since the Fifties. Ireland’s economy has collapsed utterly. The old, tried and trusted ways of distracting anger, frustration and attention are being rolled out again.”

It may be that this is a European phenomenon, where old suspicions are never quite extinguished. In America, the estimated one million Roma have been largely assimilated into a society that doesn’t carry with it such long memories.Others prefer simpler, more practical explanations for the spectre that has reappeared this week closer to home. Apparently damning evidence in both current cases should be seen in context, according to one British-based Roma writer, who prefers not to be named. He points to his community’s tradition of children living in extended families when mothers and fathers had to travel in search of work; of taking in waifs and strays and giving them a home without asking for formal adoption paperwork; and of Roma women falling in love with blond, blue-eyed gadje. “But we are passionate about our children,” he insists.

Politicians would dispute such claims. Claude Guéant, the former French interior minister, claimed last year that 10 per cent of all crime in France could be attributed to the country’s 150,000-strong Roma community, with half of that being carried out by children who were exploited by adults.

Others argue there is a wider context to the stereotype of Roma as beggars. Roma communities in today’s Europe are at the very bottom of the economic tree, just as they have been for centuries. Around 84 per cent live below the poverty line. EU statistics show that Roma children are over-represented in the various care systems of the continent; the Irish travellers’ rights group, Pavee Point, responds that “the main underlying reasons are poverty and discrimination”.

“Roma, gipsies and travellers are very proud people,” insists Isaac Blake. “They have immaculate homes with cultural rules on cleanliness and propriety. In many communities, traditional courting rules still apply and families bring up their children with a clear moral code. We ask ourselves if mainstream society has something to learn.”
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Flametop
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Flametop »

Now that the shit has hit the fan the child will need to be a completely different race for any suspicion to be entertained.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by dantedelew »

Would a fairer complexioned couple with a darker complexioned child be as likely to be tipped-off to the police, receive the same police attention and media interest as this case?
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Zico »

There has to be an EU quota for itinerants hasn't there? If there's a country in Europe with no room for more gypsies it's Ireland.

I suppose it's karma for the mobile crimewaves we've exported to Britain over the years.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by camroc1 »

dantedelew wrote:Would a fairer complexioned couple with a darker complexioned child be as likely to be tipped-off to the police, receive the same police attention and media interest as this case?
If tipped off to the police, I suspect exactly the same action would be taken. The problem in this case, was that the passport photo was of a two yr old, which looked nothing like the 7 yr old, and allegedly, the childs name differed on the birth cert and on the passport.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Flametop »

Expect a civil case to the tune of €100,000 will be the likely outcome.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by alliswell »

camroc1 wrote:
dantedelew wrote:Would a fairer complexioned couple with a darker complexioned child be as likely to be tipped-off to the police, receive the same police attention and media interest as this case?
If tipped off to the police, I suspect exactly the same action would be taken. The problem in this case, was that the passport photo was of a two yr old, which looked nothing like the 7 yr old, and allegedly, the childs name differed on the birth cert and on the passport.
I have dealings with a family of Roma and there are three brothers on the go, one of them with a different last name to the other two.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by camroc1 »

Flametop wrote:Expect a civil case to the tune of €100,000 will be the likely outcome.
Unlikely. The Gardaí and HSE have the power to take any kid in the country if they want to, if there is any suspicion of anything untoward at all. Once the child was in HSE care, the DNA tests were expedited. Once the results were known the child was returned. No doubt some solicitor will take it on, but those powers have been given to the Gardaí/HSE by the legislature; unless the Supreme Court finds them unconstitutional, no case.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Uncle Fester »

camroc1 wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:Poor child, that was like getting a golden ticket with the chance of getting away from that life of filth.
I'm not sure what else the authorities could have done, given that there were discrepancies in the paperwork.

No doubt some bottom feeding 'no foal/no fee' lawyer will attempt to sue the state on their behalf.
Let's put it this way, if one of your neighbours was to contact the gards saying that they thought your son had been kidnapped from another couple, the gards would rightly laugh them out of the station but because this couple were roma or travellers, the gards seemed to think that was reason enough to take it seriously.

It really is a bad look.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by ID2 »

Uncle Fester wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:Poor child, that was like getting a golden ticket with the chance of getting away from that life of filth.
I'm not sure what else the authorities could have done, given that there were discrepancies in the paperwork.

No doubt some bottom feeding 'no foal/no fee' lawyer will attempt to sue the state on their behalf.
Let's put it this way, if one of your neighbours was to contact the gards saying that they thought your son had been kidnapped from another couple, the gards would rightly laugh them out of the station but because this couple were roma or travellers, the gards seemed to think that was reason enough to take it seriously.

It really is a bad look.
Who cares how it looks, the right thing was done
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Killer Rabbit »

Someone needs to take a hard look at this "family"

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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by LeinsterLion »

Would go along with those saying that the right steps at least seem to have followed here and it was all resolved nice and quickly. Time was spent trying to evaluate the identity of the child, questions weren't satisfactorily answered so the child was taken away for all of a day. Better that approach than the other possibility.

Yet, predictably, campaign groups have already started with comments about the State "abducting" the child and racial profiling. They are a reprehensible lot really.

EDIT: Changed to campaign groups, may not have been PP
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by alliswell »

LeinsterLion wrote:Would go along with those saying that the right steps at least seem to have followed here and it was all resolved nice and quickly. Time was spent trying to evaluate the identity of the child, questions weren't satisfactorily answered so the child was taken away for all of a day. Better that approach than the other possibility.

Yet, predictably, campaign groups have already started with comments about the State "abducting" the child and racial profiling. They are a reprehensible lot really.

EDIT: Changed to campaign groups, may not have been PP
But it is racial profiling. And in fairness to Pavee Point, they'd be a pretty shit campaign group if they let this pass without comment.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Bullettyme »

I think it's a pretty sad story, I'd agree with alliswell, and the comments in this thread are pretty disgraceful.

An anonymous tip off leads parents to be hauled before the courts and their children removed from their custody because they looked slightly different, all the while treated as criminals, because of their ethnic background.

:?
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Openside »

Killer Rabbit wrote:Someone needs to take a hard look at this "family"

Image
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Openside »

Bullettyme wrote:I think it's a pretty sad story, I'd agree with alliswell, and the comments in this thread are pretty disgraceful.

An anonymous tip off leads parents to be hauled before the courts and their children removed from their custody because they looked slightly different, all the while treated as criminals, because of their ethnic background.

:?

Absolute nonsense!! It seems to me that enquiries were made subject to presumably a credible tip off, the family concerned were not able to provide suitable paperwork and the correct precautionary steps were taken. A DNA test was quickly done and the child returned as soon as proof was ascertained. You cannot have it both ways you would have been up in arms if the child wasn't theirs and had been spirited away while the authorities dithered.

I do agree greater credence may have been given to the tip off due to the fact they were Romas but that is because they are a secretive bunch and the ability to check data at arms length isn't as easy. If they want to stop being regarded as criminals they could stop being a travelling crime wave!!!
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by rusted »

Openside wrote:
Killer Rabbit wrote:Someone needs to take a hard look at this "family"

Image
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: I understand they had plans to holiday in Ireland but have now cancelled them.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Bullettyme »

Openside wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:I think it's a pretty sad story, I'd agree with alliswell, and the comments in this thread are pretty disgraceful.

An anonymous tip off leads parents to be hauled before the courts and their children removed from their custody because they looked slightly different, all the while treated as criminals, because of their ethnic background.

:?

Absolute nonsense!! It seems to me that enquiries were made subject to presumably a credible tip off, the family concerned were not able to provide suitable paperwork and the correct precautionary steps were taken. A DNA test was quickly done and the child returned as soon as proof was ascertained. You cannot have it both ways you would have been up in arms if the child wasn't theirs and had been spirited away while the authorities dithered.

I do agree greater credence may have been given to the tip off due to the fact they were Romas but that is because they are a secretive bunch and the ability to check data at arms length isn't as easy. If they want to stop being regarded as criminals they could stop being a travelling crime wave!!!
Charming.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Psychologist »

Openside wrote:You cannot have it both ways you would have been up in arms if the child wasn't theirs and had been spirited away while the authorities dithered.
:thumbup:
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Openside »

Bullettyme wrote:
Openside wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:I think it's a pretty sad story, I'd agree with alliswell, and the comments in this thread are pretty disgraceful.

An anonymous tip off leads parents to be hauled before the courts and their children removed from their custody because they looked slightly different, all the while treated as criminals, because of their ethnic background.

:?

Absolute nonsense!! It seems to me that enquiries were made subject to presumably a credible tip off, the family concerned were not able to provide suitable paperwork and the correct precautionary steps were taken. A DNA test was quickly done and the child returned as soon as proof was ascertained. You cannot have it both ways you would have been up in arms if the child wasn't theirs and had been spirited away while the authorities dithered.

I do agree greater credence may have been given to the tip off due to the fact they were Romas but that is because they are a secretive bunch and the ability to check data at arms length isn't as easy. If they want to stop being regarded as criminals they could stop being a travelling crime wave!!!
Charming.
Tis a fact (well certainly round our way) The travelling circus arrives and the local burglaries go through the roof. I have had my barn broken into 3 times luckily once it coincided with a planned raid on the locals pikey camp and the stuff recovered made the local cop shop look like a John Deere showroom!!!
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by camroc1 »

One of the families in question.

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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Uncle Fester »

LeinsterLion wrote:Would go along with those saying that the right steps at least seem to have followed here and it was all resolved nice and quickly. Time was spent trying to evaluate the identity of the child, questions weren't satisfactorily answered so the child was taken away for all of a day. Better that approach than the other possibility.

Yet, predictably, campaign groups have already started with comments about the State "abducting" the child and racial profiling. They are a reprehensible lot really.

EDIT: Changed to campaign groups, may not have been PP
It was though. If an allegation like this was made re the children of white, Irish parents, the gards would have told them off for wasting their time. Because it was made about Roma, it was taken seriously.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Malahide Mullet »

alliswell wrote:
LeinsterLion wrote:Would go along with those saying that the right steps at least seem to have followed here and it was all resolved nice and quickly. Time was spent trying to evaluate the identity of the child, questions weren't satisfactorily answered so the child was taken away for all of a day. Better that approach than the other possibility.

Yet, predictably, campaign groups have already started with comments about the State "abducting" the child and racial profiling. They are a reprehensible lot really.

EDIT: Changed to campaign groups, may not have been PP
But it is racial profiling. And in fairness to Pavee Point, they'd be a pretty shit campaign group if they let this pass without comment.
You call it racial profiling

In the real world it's called common sense.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Malahide Mullet »

camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by camroc1 »

Uncle Fester wrote:
LeinsterLion wrote:Would go along with those saying that the right steps at least seem to have followed here and it was all resolved nice and quickly. Time was spent trying to evaluate the identity of the child, questions weren't satisfactorily answered so the child was taken away for all of a day. Better that approach than the other possibility.

Yet, predictably, campaign groups have already started with comments about the State "abducting" the child and racial profiling. They are a reprehensible lot really.

EDIT: Changed to campaign groups, may not have been PP
It was though. If an allegation like this was made re the children of white, Irish parents, the gards would have told them off for wasting their time. Because it was made about Roma, it was taken seriously.
Bollox, Fester, amd you know it. If the Gardaí and the HSE think any child is at risk, they have the right to, and frequently do, remove it. Witness the 3/4 squad cars that showed up to remove a newly born child from its mother a few weeks ago. All there were white Irish.

If we give the State these powers, we must expect them to use them.

IMO the Gardaí acted in good faith, and resolved the situation as quickly as possible.

No doubt the professional whingers will have a field day, try and thrash our reputation, and call for a public inquiry in which only the lawyers will win.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Uncle Fester »

Malahide Mullet wrote:
camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
You can see why somebody would call the guards though.
Anybody up to speed enough on genetics to be able to explain this? Recessive genes, etc?
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Womack »

Uncle Fester wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
You can see why somebody would call the guards though.
Anybody up to speed enough on genetics to be able to explain this? Recessive genes, etc?
Proof it IS actually possible to catch ginger.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by springtide »

Uncle Fester wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
You can see why somebody would call the guards though.
Anybody up to speed enough on genetics to be able to explain this? Recessive genes, etc?
wiki
One phenotype (brown/blond) has a dominant brown allele and a recessive blond allele. A person with a brown allele will have brown hair; a person with no brown alleles will be blond. This explains why two brown-haired parents can produce a blond-haired child.
The other gene pair is a non-red/red pair, where the non-red allele (which suppresses production of pheomelanin) is dominant and the allele for red hair is recessive. A person with two copies of the red-haired allele will have red hair.
The two-gene model does not account for all possible shades of brown, blond, or red (for example, platinum blond versus dark blond/light brown), nor does it explain why hair color sometimes darkens as a person ages. Several gene pairs control the light versus dark hair color in a cumulative effect. A person's genotype for a multifactorial trait can interact with environment to produce varying phenotypes (see quantitative trait locus).
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by ID2 »

Uncle Fester wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
You can see why somebody would call the guards though.
Anybody up to speed enough on genetics to be able to explain this? Recessive genes, etc?
Image
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Stjudes »

ID2 wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
You can see why somebody would call the guards though.
Anybody up to speed enough on genetics to be able to explain this? Recessive genes, etc?
Image
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Openside »

Uncle Fester wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
You can see why somebody would call the guards though.
Anybody up to speed enough on genetics to be able to explain this? Recessive genes, etc?

If both parents are recessive it is possible for two dark haired people to have a blonde child - Both my parents are dark - My brother is blonde I and my sister are dark!!!
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Malahide Mullet »

Openside wrote:
If both parents are recessive it is possible for two dark haired people to have a blonde child - Both my parents are dark - My brother is blonde I and my sister are dark!!!
Get a job!!!
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Tony McGahan »

ID2 wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

Image

I don't believe those tests for a f**king second.


Look at that big West Offaly head on him
You can see why somebody would call the guards though.
Anybody up to speed enough on genetics to be able to explain this? Recessive genes, etc?
Image
:lol:

Well played.
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

camroc1 wrote:One of the families in question.

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Woah that guy must be pretty important in his job if he can go around with that look and get away with it.
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CM11
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Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by CM11 »

Did they just test the mother or both parents?
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Blackrock Bullet
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: #68

Re: Blonde girl taken from Roma family in Dublin

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

CM11 wrote:Did they just test the mother or both parents?
Ohhh you've only gone and done it!

You envisaging a Tadgh McCabe like dalliance?
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