Those three slaves found in SW London ???

All things Rugby
User avatar
karahi
Posts: 4229
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by karahi »

Openside wrote:
I do understand the basic ins and outs surrounding bail, I haven't as you say made it up, I have merely expressed surprise that two people who 'on the details given so far' appear to have imprisoned 3 people for 30 years are considered bail worthy.In other similar cases the alleged offender is remanded in custody. No more or less than that - FFS why are people so jumpy??
Yes you have. You've invented the concept of a "baleable offence". You made that up. There is no such thing.

Now you've renamed it "bailworthiness" based on the severity of the offence. There's no such concept.

No one's jumpy, it's just a pain in the arse for people who do know what they're talking about to have to argue you out of some confected delusion rather than answering a simple question about what the rules are surrounding bail.

Yes, I realise I didn't "have" to do it, but the alternative was to see you rampaging around the bored like Bill only with mod privileges.

I'm going to bed now.
User avatar
waguser
Posts: 12986
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by waguser »

karahi wrote: it's just a pain in the arse for people who do know what they're talking about to have to argue you out of some confected delusion

.
cough cough

;)
User avatar
Openside
Posts: 24566
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Openside »

karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:

Well they have imprisoned three people for 30 years so risk to the public potentially yes
What are they going to do? Take on more slaves whilst they're being prosecuted for slavery and the police know where they live? Get real.
and if convicted will spend the rest of their lives in Prison so flight risk - Yes!!
Not really, if they surrender their passports and have no continuing affiliations to another country.
plus the severity of the crime.
Not relevant.

People in the UK are still considered to be innocent until proven guilty, and if there's no real risk that they'll run off or be dangerous to others or themselves, are entitled to bail.

1st Bold True but doesn't stop them trying besides you can get to France pretty easily without your passport being checked.


2nd Bold - You don't see many people being tried for murder even if it is obvious due the the circs thay are no danger to the public getting bail.

Besides bearing in mind if convicted they will spend the rest of their lives behind bars I would have thought a risk to themselves is a distinct possibility.
User avatar
fatman
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by fatman »

karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:
I do understand the basic ins and outs surrounding bail, I haven't as you say made it up, I have merely expressed surprise that two people who 'on the details given so far' appear to have imprisoned 3 people for 30 years are considered bail worthy.In other similar cases the alleged offender is remanded in custody. No more or less than that - FFS why are people so jumpy??
Yes you have. You've invented the concept of a "baleable offence". You made that up. There is no such thing.

Now you've renamed it "bailworthiness" based on the severity of the offence. There's no such concept.

No one's jumpy, it's just a pain in the arse for people who do know what they're talking about to have to argue you out of some confected delusion rather than answering a simple question about what the rules are surrounding bail.

Yes, I realise I didn't "have" to do it, but the alternative was to see you rampaging around the bored like Bill only with mod privileges.

I'm going to bed now.
yeah, last night's cricket has pissed me off as well
User avatar
Mad suppet
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Mad suppet »

karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:
I do understand the basic ins and outs surrounding bail, I haven't as you say made it up, I have merely expressed surprise that two people who 'on the details given so far' appear to have imprisoned 3 people for 30 years are considered bail worthy.In other similar cases the alleged offender is remanded in custody. No more or less than that - FFS why are people so jumpy??
Yes you have. You've invented the concept of a "baleable offence". You made that up. There is no such thing.

Now you've renamed it "bailworthiness" based on the severity of the offence. There's no such concept.

No one's jumpy, it's just a pain in the arse for people who do know what they're talking about to have to argue you out of some confected delusion rather than answering a simple question about what the rules are surrounding bail.

Yes, I realise I didn't "have" to do it, but the alternative was to see you rampaging around the bored like Bill only with mod privileges.

I'm going to bed now.
I find this post offensive. Should this poster be banned for two weeks or does his argument give him enough bailability?
User avatar
Openside
Posts: 24566
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Openside »

karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:
I do understand the basic ins and outs surrounding bail, I haven't as you say made it up, I have merely expressed surprise that two people who 'on the details given so far' appear to have imprisoned 3 people for 30 years are considered bail worthy.In other similar cases the alleged offender is remanded in custody. No more or less than that - FFS why are people so jumpy??
Yes you have. You've invented the concept of a "baleable offence". You made that up. There is no such thing.

Now you've renamed it "bailworthiness" based on the severity of the offence. There's no such concept.

No one's jumpy, it's just a pain in the arse for people who do know what they're talking about to have to argue you out of some confected delusion rather than answering a simple question about what the rules are surrounding bail.

Yes, I realise I didn't "have" to do it, but the alternative was to see you rampaging around the bored like Bill only with mod privileges.

I'm going to bed now.
That is semantics, using the term bailable offence was to all intents and purposes shorthand for the circumstances of their crime are not something that I would consider suitable for bail. I wasn't suggesting there are bailable or non bailable offences as each are considered on their merits. I understand you are talking pure law but I think people generally have an expectation that criminals who are going to do serious time if convicted are generally not let loose on bail. I could easily see this couple being at serious risk of harm to themselves can't you??

As for you rampaging comment I am somewhat taken aback, I hardly think I have rampaged on this thread in fact I would imagine a straw poll would expect kidnapping for 30 years to be the sort of offence that bail would be denied for, for all the reasons you mentioned - risk to the public, flight risk and potential harm to themselves. In fact if you go back you will see that I am wondering what did actually occur particularly as the women appeared to have been freed almost a month ago and the couple only just arrested and released.
User avatar
Openside
Posts: 24566
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Openside »

waguser wrote:
karahi wrote: it's just a pain in the arse for people who do know what they're talking about to have to argue you out of some confected delusion

.
cough cough

;)
:lol: :lol: You couldn't help your self could you
User avatar
Boobs not Moobs
Posts: 6437
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

What was wrong with the two threads we already had on this, deleted?
User avatar
fatman
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by fatman »

there's an interesting snippet just being added to this in that the couple were detained but not charged in the 1970s. not sure the police will cope very well if it turns out that it was reported back then but not properly investigated.
User avatar
Leinster in London
Posts: 5776
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Leinster in London »

fatman wrote:there's an interesting snippet just being added to this in that the couple were detained but not charged in the 1970s. not sure the police will cope very well if it turns out that it was reported back then but not properly investigated.
If these women were slaves for only 30 years, it must have been a different set of "slaves" back then, if indeed it was slavery they were arrested for. Thinking about it, maybe the police did handle it, but avoided any court case hassle.
User avatar
Openside
Posts: 24566
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Openside »

Leinster in London wrote:
fatman wrote:there's an interesting snippet just being added to this in that the couple were detained but not charged in the 1970s. not sure the police will cope very well if it turns out that it was reported back then but not properly investigated.
If these women were slaves for only 30 years, it must have been a different set of "slaves" back then, if indeed it was slavery they were arrested for. Thinking about it, maybe the police did handle it, but avoided any court case hassle.

Well if they are guilty I hope they are enjoying their last taste of freedom that the seemingly generous offer of Bail has given them ;)
User avatar
village
Posts: 3818
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by village »

What I don't understand about all this is why, if the women had access to a phone to call a charity and say they were being held against their will, did they not put a call in to 999?
User avatar
Anonymous 1
Posts: 40386
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:15 pm
Location: Planet Rock

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Bullettyme wrote:
Openside wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:Is there a thread apart from this one?

Pretty shocking story, horrible stuff. Hopefully the scum that perpetrated this get locked away for a long time.

Agreed but that is the odd thing you wouldn't have seen Fritzl or that American chap (since killed himself) released on bail??
Definitely not, disgusting monsters. Pretty f**ked legal system if you're letting complete monsters like this out on bail.
Isn't bail supposed to be based on risk of possible further offences and flight risk.
User avatar
DAC*
Posts: 3697
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by DAC* »

I hope someone remembers to water the plants.
User avatar
Anonymous 1
Posts: 40386
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:15 pm
Location: Planet Rock

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Openside wrote:
karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:
I do understand the basic ins and outs surrounding bail, I haven't as you say made it up, I have merely expressed surprise that two people who 'on the details given so far' appear to have imprisoned 3 people for 30 years are considered bail worthy.In other similar cases the alleged offender is remanded in custody. No more or less than that - FFS why are people so jumpy??
Yes you have. You've invented the concept of a "baleable offence". You made that up. There is no such thing.

Now you've renamed it "bailworthiness" based on the severity of the offence. There's no such concept.

No one's jumpy, it's just a pain in the arse for people who do know what they're talking about to have to argue you out of some confected delusion rather than answering a simple question about what the rules are surrounding bail.

Yes, I realise I didn't "have" to do it, but the alternative was to see you rampaging around the bored like Bill only with mod privileges.

I'm going to bed now.
That is semantics, using the term bailable offence was to all intents and purposes shorthand for the circumstances of their crime are not something that I would consider suitable for bail. I wasn't suggesting there are bailable or non bailable offences as each are considered on their merits. I understand you are talking pure law but I think people generally have an expectation that criminals who are going to do serious time if convicted are generally not let loose on bail. I could easily see this couple being at serious risk of harm to themselves can't you??
You can't just oppose bail on medical grounds by making them up
User avatar
Womack
Posts: 5523
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: By the mighty beard of Adam Jones

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Womack »

Openside wrote: Well if they are guilty I hope they are enjoying their last taste of freedom that the seemingly generous offer of Bail has given them ;)
The fuckers are off to Bali?

(I assume 'Bail' is another misprint on your part)
etherman
Posts: 5312
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by etherman »

Whats surprising to me is that 2 of these women escaped of their own accord... despie the fact that the Irish lassie phoned a charity about her situation, who then passed the information on to the police, 3 DAYS before they escaped. Nothing was done. What the actual fudge?
User avatar
Petros
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Petros »

Both are understood to be non-British, but police would not comment on suggestions they were Irish.
The eldest of the three is now reported as having had a stroke while in captivity
etherman
Posts: 5312
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by etherman »

Petros wrote:
Both are understood to be non-British, but police would not comment on suggestions they were Irish.
The eldest of the three is now reported as having had a stroke while in captivity
I'd say she had more than a stroke.
User avatar
Boobs not Moobs
Posts: 6437
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
User avatar
DAC*
Posts: 3697
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by DAC* »

Boobs not Moobs wrote:
The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
They've been here for 30 years, it has feck all to do with integration in this case.

However, Sheffield have taken the bold step of writing a document to help new immirgrants from Romania and the like. It helpfully tells them not to shit in the street and that having sex in the street is is also frowned upon.

How far we've fallen.
User avatar
6roucho
Posts: 9504
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Gangly Beehive

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by 6roucho »

Boobs not Moobs wrote:
The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
Fritzl was a catholic.
User avatar
DAC*
Posts: 3697
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by DAC* »

I think she was talking about the UK.
etherman
Posts: 5312
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by etherman »

DAC* wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
They've been here for 30 years, it has feck all to do with integration in this case.

However, Sheffield have taken the bold step of writing a document to help new immirgrants from Romania and the like. It helpfully tells them not to shit in the street and that having sex in the street is is also frowned upon.

How far we've fallen.
Is this Document available in Cardiff? Was there a few weeks ago. Saturday night x(
User avatar
Boobs not Moobs
Posts: 6437
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

6roucho wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
Fritzl was a catholic.
You know full well I was talking about the UK.
User avatar
Openside
Posts: 24566
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Openside »

Womack wrote:
Openside wrote: Well if they are guilty I hope they are enjoying their last taste of freedom that the seemingly generous offer of Bail has given them ;)
The fuckers are off to Bali?

(I assume 'Bail' is another misprint on your part)
:lol: :lol:
User avatar
6roucho
Posts: 9504
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Gangly Beehive

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by 6roucho »

Boobs not Moobs wrote:
6roucho wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
Fritzl was a catholic.
You know full well I was talking about the UK.
User avatar
6roucho
Posts: 9504
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Gangly Beehive

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by 6roucho »

Boobs not Moobs wrote:
6roucho wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
Fritzl was a catholic.
You know full well I was talking about the UK.
No I didn't. This is an international forum and I'm in the other country called 'foreign'.
User avatar
Boobs not Moobs
Posts: 6437
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Boobs not Moobs »

6roucho wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
6roucho wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
The London Evening Standard reports that the bail conditions of the couple arrested, who are believed to be Asian
Has there actually been a slavery case in recent years that hasn't actually been Muslims of Pakistani descent or Irish Travellers?

Of course it could be a Chinese couple, in a way I hope it is.

To be a bit glib we really need to do more about integration. We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others.
Fritzl was a catholic.
You know full well I was talking about the UK.
No I didn't. This is an international forum and I'm in the other country called 'foreign'.
We've enough useless shits on humanity already but we're importing new shits with new tactics for exploiting others
C69
Posts: 40092
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by C69 »

karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:

doesn't on the face of it sound like a bale-able offence.
For the love of god Openside, will you please stop giving us the benefit of your legal knowledge?
FFs :lol:
User avatar
Salient
Posts: 3574
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Queensland!

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Salient »

dantedelew wrote:
Openside wrote:
karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:

doesn't on the face of it sound like a bale-able offence.
For the love of god Openside, will you please stop giving us the benefit of your legal knowledge?

??? So you think two people who have imprisoned 3 people for 30 years is the sort of crime you should get bail for?? If that isn't what has happened, I am covered by my 'on the face it rider' :D
Are they a threat to the public or themselves? Are they a flight risk? etc
I though they were the kind of questions that are used to determine bail or not.
I have it on good authority that they have already boarded a clipper bound for the Dutch East Indies :shock:

For the poster above somewhere, you can be Malaysian without being Malay, Chinese ethnic nationals for example.
User avatar
DragsterDriver
Posts: 24998
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Big Willi Style

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by DragsterDriver »

etherman wrote:
Petros wrote:
Both are understood to be non-British, but police would not comment on suggestions they were Irish.
The eldest of the three is now reported as having had a stroke while in captivity
I'd say she had more than a stroke.
:lol:

The pikeys have been keeping slaves for years over here, generally older men with learning difficulties.
merlin the happy pig
Posts: 1869
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by merlin the happy pig »

Psychologist wrote:
Openside wrote:
dantedelew wrote:
Openside wrote:Whats the scoop on this as it can't be a fritzl or the American Bus Driver scenario as I hear on the radio on the way to work this morning that the women were 'saved' last month and the elderly pair who held them captive have been released on bail :shock:

doesn't on the face of it sound like a bale-able offence.

also the fact that all of them have been enslaved for 30 years and one of them is 30 does that mean the filipino was pregnant when abducted or did she bear the captors child??
I don't think there's a Filipino involved is there?
On the radio this morning they said that there didn't appear to be sexual abuse involved and that it was being looked at as domestic slavery/servitude.

The first report had her as Filipino, I think that has been corrected to British (of Filipino origin)
So the original two slaves were Filipino, and their child to the captor was British (of Filipino origin)?

Which religious culture produced the captors, I wonder?
None.
plum like all other behavioural traits is strongly heritable, i.e. mostly genetic in origin.

Nothing a good Eugenecist couldn't fix given 5 or so generations.
User avatar
village
Posts: 3818
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by village »

Appears they may have been a cult. All a bit weird for Lambeth.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/n ... estigation
User avatar
karahi
Posts: 4229
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by karahi »

Openside wrote:
That is semantics, using the term bailable offence was to all intents and purposes shorthand for the circumstances of their crime are not something that I would consider suitable for bail. I wasn't suggesting there are bailable or non bailable offences as each are considered on their merits. I understand you are talking pure law but I think people generally have an expectation that criminals who are going to do serious time if convicted are generally not let loose on bail. I could easily see this couple being at serious risk of harm to themselves can't you??

As for you rampaging comment I am somewhat taken aback, I hardly think I have rampaged on this thread in fact I would imagine a straw poll would expect kidnapping for 30 years to be the sort of offence that bail would be denied for, for all the reasons you mentioned - risk to the public, flight risk and potential harm to themselves. In fact if you go back you will see that I am wondering what did actually occur particularly as the women appeared to have been freed almost a month ago and the couple only just arrested and released.
Oh Lord, here you go again. You say you weren't suggesting that there are bailable or non bailable offences, then you say that most would expect kidnapping for 30 years to be the sort of offence that bail would be denied for.

Of course I'm talking "pure law". Bail is a legal concept, how else is it to be discussed?

I'd imagine that the person who was best placed to determine whether they are a risk to the public, a flight risk or a danger to themselves was the magistrate who heard the evidence, not people chewing the cud on an internet forum.
I think people generally have an expectation that criminals who are going to do serious time if convicted are generally not let loose on bail.
Often they're not, but only because one of the factors on which bail can be denied is present. None of which is the severity of the crime. Otherwise we'd have a situation in which simply being accused of a serious crime was tantamount to being found guilty of it. Do you really want to live in that sort of a society?

An example: some nutty burd in the office develops a crush on you and when you say you're not interested she goes to the police and falsely claims you raped her. You have a clean criminal record, a happy and stable family and an exemplary record of public service. Should you be sent to prison on remand for 6 months "because of the severity of the crime" whilst statements are taken, the prosecution gets its shit together, and finally realises that there are holes in her story a mile wide? How would you feel when you were released from prison without even a "sorry" to find that your wife and kids have left you, your business has disintegrated and your friends now shun you, because your lengthy absence means that everyone assumes there's no smoke without fire?

And now ask yourself why these people shouldn't get the benefit of the same assumption of innocence until guilt is proven that you'd want for yourself, just because you've read about it in the paper and have already made your own assumptions based on fudge all actual evidence?
User avatar
Openside
Posts: 24566
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Openside »

karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:
That is semantics, using the term bailable offence was to all intents and purposes shorthand for the circumstances of their crime are not something that I would consider suitable for bail. I wasn't suggesting there are bailable or non bailable offences as each are considered on their merits. I understand you are talking pure law but I think people generally have an expectation that criminals who are going to do serious time if convicted are generally not let loose on bail. I could easily see this couple being at serious risk of harm to themselves can't you??

As for you rampaging comment I am somewhat taken aback, I hardly think I have rampaged on this thread in fact I would imagine a straw poll would expect kidnapping for 30 years to be the sort of offence that bail would be denied for, for all the reasons you mentioned - risk to the public, flight risk and potential harm to themselves. In fact if you go back you will see that I am wondering what did actually occur particularly as the women appeared to have been freed almost a month ago and the couple only just arrested and released.
Oh Lord, here you go again. You say you weren't suggesting that there are bailable or non bailable offences, then you say that most would expect kidnapping for 30 years to be the sort of offence that bail would be denied for.

Of course I'm talking "pure law". Bail is a legal concept, how else is it to be discussed?

I'd imagine that the person who was best placed to determine whether they are a risk to the public, a flight risk or a danger to themselves was the magistrate who heard the evidence, not people chewing the cud on an internet forum.
I think people generally have an expectation that criminals who are going to do serious time if convicted are generally not let loose on bail.
Often they're not, but only because one of the factors on which bail can be denied is present. None of which is the severity of the crime. Otherwise we'd have a situation in which simply being accused of a serious crime was tantamount to being found guilty of it. Do you really want to live in that sort of a society?

An example: some nutty burd in the office develops a crush on you and when you say you're not interested she goes to the police and falsely claims you raped her. You have a clean criminal record, a happy and stable family and an exemplary record of public service. Should you be sent to prison on remand for 6 months "because of the severity of the crime" whilst statements are taken, the prosecution gets its shit together, and finally realises that there are holes in her story a mile wide? How would you feel when you were released from prison without even a "sorry" to find that your wife and kids have left you, your business has disintegrated and your friends now shun you, because your lengthy absence means that everyone assumes there's no smoke without fire?

And now ask yourself why these people shouldn't get the benefit of the same assumption of innocence until guilt is proven that you'd want for yourself, just because you've read about it in the paper and have already made your own assumptions based on fudge all actual evidence?

K

you are considerably more erudite than me, doubly so after an evening at the regimental dinner so I am not going to argue with you other than to say I suspect however badly worded you knew exactly what I meant if not what I was actually saying but decided to launch into me anyway!! :((
User avatar
Psychologist
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:56 pm
Location: AGM, Association for Bringing Down Statues

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Psychologist »

merlin the happy pig wrote:None.
plum like all other behavioural traits is strongly heritable, i.e. mostly genetic in origin.

Nothing a good Eugenecist couldn't fix given 5 or so generations.
She's a good question, that one.

It's also possible that selfishness arises to fill ecological niches when there are too many nice people. Which would mean that some nice people become plum if the opportunity is there.

It's also possible that some nice people never become plum, or only do so under extraordinary circumstances.

tl;dr the darker races need to learn to enslave with laws and mortgages and treaties, like we did
User avatar
globus
Posts: 52703
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Oundle

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by globus »

karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:
karahi wrote:
Openside wrote:

doesn't on the face of it sound like a bale-able offence.
For the love of god Openside, will you please stop giving us the benefit of your legal knowledge?

??? So you think two people who have imprisoned 3 people for 30 years is the sort of crime you should get bail for?? If that isn't what has happened, I am covered by my 'on the face it rider' :D
With the greatest of respect, it would help if you started with the faintest of inklings about the laws surrounding bail, rather than just making it up. If you don't know, ask, but please don't pretend that there's such a thing as a "baleable" offence or that you'd recognise one if there was.

For your edification, the presumption at law is that after a person has been charged, he or she must be released, either with or without bail. There is no provision at law which excludes certain charges from bail.
Stop it, K. Now. <splutter>
User avatar
karahi
Posts: 4229
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by karahi »

Openside wrote:

you are considerably more erudite than me, doubly so after an evening at the regimental dinner so I am not going to argue with you other than to say I suspect however badly worded you knew exactly what I meant if not what I was actually saying but decided to launch into me anyway!! :((
It's not personal. I just tend to get annoyed at Bill's approach to criminal justice, especially when it's posters who I otherwise like who're displaying it. :)
Harden up!!!
Posts: 2581
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Kirikiriroa

Re: Those three slaves found in SW London ???

Post by Harden up!!! »

Psychologist wrote:
merlin the happy pig wrote:None.
plum like all other behavioural traits is strongly heritable, i.e. mostly genetic in origin.

Nothing a good Eugenecist couldn't fix given 5 or so generations.
She's a good question, that one.

It's also possible that selfishness arises to fill ecological niches when there are too many nice people. Which would mean that some nice people become plum if the opportunity is there.

It's also possible that some nice people never become plum, or only do so under extraordinary circumstances.

tl;dr the darker races need to learn to enslave with laws and mortgages and treaties, like we did
Didn't the chinese have an awesome bureaucracy for a long time? Did they invent it? :D, also the indian caste system, and imperial japan, feudal japan, sharia law, Tapu and Kapu.......can go on and on.
Post Reply