NZ Politics Thread

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deadduck
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by deadduck »

There's a real risk something like this would be a massive white elephant. Commuting long distances to work will become less and less viable as remote workplace technology improves, and for industries where most workers don't work from home, why would you want to incentivise centralising those in the main centres and hurting the regions?

If there's not enough commuter traffic, the whole thing falls over on revenue. Shipping goods would be better served by high capacity standard rail. And it's not like our urban centres are so high density that we have no option but to sprawl out to the minor centres.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Wignu »

Fantastic, now I've got the Simpson's Monorail song in my head and it won't go away!

Maybe light rail could work in the 3 biggest centres but that'd be about it.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Flockwitt »

I'm not at all keen on first impression. We don't have the population for a high speed rail link, and the problem with rail links is that the infrastructure still needs to be around the rail ends. People still want to drive just like they do with airports. Airplanes are flexible, they can fly different routes, can be bought and sold, an airport has multiple uses. A high speed rail link has all the makings of a white elephant as you've noted dd.

We'd be much better upgrading our existing infrastructure for something that will last another twenty years. We've seen what pressures the ever expanding tourism industry is putting on the roads, that will return. The No.1 highway south of Blenheim after getting off the ferry going against the heavy traffic coming up is a death trap in the rain. And that's something that'll help nationwide, not just a couple of centers.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Fat Old Git »

High speed rail seems like a solution to yesterday's problem rather than a step forward.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Tehui »

deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
I don't know enough about the subject. What's your estimate on costs, Minister?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by sonic_attack »

Revenue being the elephant in the room. All good going back to work - But what to.
Tourism - decimated
Hospitality - decimated
Every connected industry on lifeline and will hit the wall in a matter of months. From market gardening through Printing to digital media. Massive unemployment.

Not sure what the projections are but not hard to imagine a 40% or more decline in business outside a couple of select industries inside the next 2-3 months, I even wonder about our primary industries, are people around the world able to afford our product? When folk get desperate, they drop the price to match or better competitors, and we'll have a lot of competition from everyone in survival mode.

That's without having to factor in some type of social distancing routine to make it work straight off the bat.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by deadduck »

Tehui wrote:
deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
I don't know enough about the subject. What's your estimate on costs, Minister?

Well the Greens reckon $9 billion so it's gonna be about $30 billion
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Ted. »

Enzedder wrote:
deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
Not sure I like it but it seems better than the money spent on cycle paths and new roads under the the last lot

High speed intercity rail in NZ would be massively expensive. I Just reopen and adequately maintain our existing system with modern trains - you can only go so fast on narrow gauge conventional rails in our topography.

What the greens should be supporting is improved road networks, for instance the Hutt to Tawa link that NZTA shit-canned, while at the same time encouraging the uptake of electric vehicles, including the in stallion a comprehensive network of charging stations ready to accept autonomous vehicles - which could be housed near our shiny new train stations.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Flockwitt »

Actually one good thing might come of it. People might look to get jobs back in the agricultural center. That's what I'd be doing right now if I'd been laid off, trying to get seasonal work in an onion factory that the backpackers used to do. Plenty of work should be made available as been mentioned already regards the migrant workers travel bans right? Cherry picking, garlic topping and tailing, working the packing houses, jobs that might have been done as summer or between jobs work rather than making coffees for tourists. Those haven't gone away.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Auckman »

deadduck wrote:There's a real risk something like this would be a massive white elephant. Commuting long distances to work will become less and less viable as remote workplace technology improves, and for industries where most workers don't work from home, why would you want to incentivise centralising those in the main centres and hurting the regions?

If there's not enough commuter traffic, the whole thing falls over on revenue. Shipping goods would be better served by high capacity standard rail. And it's not like our urban centres are so high density that we have no option but to sprawl out to the minor centres.
I doubt working from home will replace working at the office or the factories in the cities to such an extent that this becomes the new norm; although it will certainly become more common for some workplaces. 160kmh train into the city or the city's outskirts for work is still viable in the future. Good for young families who can't afford to live in the cities.

Having said all of the above, I'm pretty certain the Greens idea will never happen to the extent they have outlined here though.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Ted. »

deadduck wrote:
Tehui wrote:
deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
I don't know enough about the subject. What's your estimate on costs, Minister?

Well the Greens reckon $9 billion so it's gonna be about $30 billion
Those hairy armpit fools won't be getting a red cent out on MY treasury! :x
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Tehui »

deadduck wrote:
Tehui wrote:
deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
I don't know enough about the subject. What's your estimate on costs, Minister?

Well the Greens reckon $9 billion so it's gonna be about $30 billion
That's a hell of a cost. As Auck said, I'd like to see NZ put an emphasis on people living in the smaller towns.

What's going on in Northland? I thought they are looking at developing / improving the rail network up there?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Flockwitt »

$9 billion preliminary estimate? A useless pipe dream. End of. What are they smoking?
Last edited by Flockwitt on Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Auckman »

There is also another good that comes from the Greens plan. It makes the existing motorways and arterial roads less congested making it easier for those who need to drive their cars/courier vans/trucks to get around. Increased productivity all round!
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Sonny Blount »

There are going to be a lot of empty trains for a long time.

There will be fewer people working and everyone's disgust responses will be on edge for a long time.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by sonic_attack »

I'd sooner see 9-30 billion going into the last jump of connecting 85% renewable energy to 100%+
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Auckman »

The best way for this fast train idea to work is to hook it up in conjunction with new housing estates in towns and make sure it goes directly to the main employment areas and tertiary education areas in the nearest city. Might help to pay for some of the costs.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by UncleFB »

Ted. wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Tehui wrote:
deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
I don't know enough about the subject. What's your estimate on costs, Minister?

Well the Greens reckon $9 billion so it's gonna be about $30 billion
Those hairy armpit fools won't be getting a red cent out on MY treasury! :x
Oh great, another opportunity to deny MY people jobs and transport access.

Just trying to get myself into the spirit of it.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by merlin the happy pig »

Auckman wrote:
deadduck wrote:There's a real risk something like this would be a massive white elephant. Commuting long distances to work will become less and less viable as remote workplace technology improves, and for industries where most workers don't work from home, why would you want to incentivise centralising those in the main centres and hurting the regions?

If there's not enough commuter traffic, the whole thing falls over on revenue. Shipping goods would be better served by high capacity standard rail. And it's not like our urban centres are so high density that we have no option but to sprawl out to the minor centres.
I doubt working from home will replace working at the office or the factories in the cities to such an extent that this becomes the new norm; although it will certainly become more common for some workplaces. 160kmh train into the city or the city's outskirts for work is still viable in the future. Good for young families who can't afford to live in the cities.

Having said all of the above, I'm pretty certain the Greens idea will never happen to the extent they have outlined here though.
Covid-19 puts a bit of a spanner in the works of all Mass transit.
With any luck we get a vaccine otherwise no one in their right mind would pack themselves in to trains or buses for commuting.

I'm not against the idea, there are a few occasions where rail actually outperforms cars in joules/km/passenger, and long distance rail is one of them.
Commuter rail almost never does.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by JB1981 »

Did anyone watch the briefing? If so, what was the extra context for this from Stuff?
It sounds like contact tracing isn't quite at the level it should be to relax restrictions
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Ted. »

UncleFB wrote:
Ted. wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Tehui wrote:
deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
I don't know enough about the subject. What's your estimate on costs, Minister?

Well the Greens reckon $9 billion so it's gonna be about $30 billion
Those hairy armpit fools won't be getting a red cent out on MY treasury! :x
Oh great, another opportunity to deny MY people jobs and transport access.

Just trying to get myself into the spirit of it.
You and your people will get nothing. Nothing I say!

Fucking Aussies! :roll:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Ted. »

JB1981 wrote:Did anyone watch the briefing? If so, what was the extra context for this from Stuff?
It sounds like contact tracing isn't quite at the level it should be to relax restrictions
Stuff shit-stirring.

There's been some quite disingenuous, even snide, reporting coming out of them the last few days. Usually labelled as opinion pieces. They're obviously trying to raise the clickbait ratio after a bit of a hiatus.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Ted. »

Anyway, 4 confirmed cases with 5 suspected cases, for 9 new cases in total.

Total cases is 1431. 912 have recovered.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Sonny Blount »

Auckman wrote:The best way for this fast train idea to work is to hook it up in conjunction with new housing estates in towns and make sure it goes directly to the main employment areas and tertiary education areas in the nearest city. Might help to pay for some of the costs.
x(

So many assumptions have to hold true over a long period of time for trains to work in NZ. Everybody has to work in just the right place and everybody has to live in just the right place. And if the planners assumptions manage to see into the future of work and hold true, then success means land prices go up in those just right areas.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Sonny Blount »

What happened to the Easter road toll by the way?

It would be good to hear that some losses of life have been clawed back.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Wignu »

It was zero, only the second time since they started recording it.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Wilderbeast »

deadduck wrote:
Tehui wrote:
deadduck wrote:What do people think of the Greens idea to stimulate the economy by building massive high speed rail networks?

Good idea in principle but like all of these infrastructure projects its not easy to see how it really helps people who've lost their jobs or small businesses who've had to close, and surely it will also act to inflate trades and construction prices.
I don't know enough about the subject. What's your estimate on costs, Minister?

Well the Greens reckon $9 billion so it's gonna be about $30 billion
What do we get for $9b? Link?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Fat Old Git »

I've used high speed trains overseas and they're a great way if getting from one city to another. They're not cheap though, and you still need transport to get to and from the terminals, so I'm not convinced they would be an option for people thinking of commuting from one NZ city to another for work.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Wilderbeast »

Fat Old Git wrote:I've used high speed trains overseas and they're a great way if getting from one city to another. They're not cheap though, and you still need transport to get to and from the terminals, so I'm not convinced they would be an option for people thinking of commuting from one NZ city to another for work.
I commute by train, I think they’d be great. Aucklands station is very central I understand. Wellington is pretty decent.

Also, where did you use trains overseas, ones I used were pretty cheap I thought?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Fat Old Git »

UK and Europe is where I've used the high speed trains. Madrid to Barcelona hitting 301 km/hr was pretty cool.

But they're really only city to city. You then use the the local public transport network to get around. Which is pretty good in most of the UK and Europe where you have relatively high density living, but not so much in NZ.

Wellington is a bit of an exception due to it's geography.

Edit. Just to clarify, it was the cost of the high speed trains I was referring to. Not something like a travel card for London's local network which is usually quite reasonable.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by AD345 »

No-one is going to invest in mass public transport for a long time
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Wilderbeast »

I am optimistic. It’s based on an idea of hubs so basically links small towns and cities with a large urban centre. I’m theory, the idea is a good one.

Does Christchurch have a central station? I think Wellington’s is pretty decent for a lot off workers in the city, and the buses help if you need to get further in. Auckland takes you right into the heart I understand?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Dark »

We don't have the population to warrant a high speed train network.

Especially when Air NZ will be sliding on the skins of their arse and domestic flights will be cheap as
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Auckman »

Sonny Blount wrote:
Auckman wrote:The best way for this fast train idea to work is to hook it up in conjunction with new housing estates in towns and make sure it goes directly to the main employment areas and tertiary education areas in the nearest city. Might help to pay for some of the costs.
x(

So many assumptions have to hold true over a long period of time for trains to work in NZ. Everybody has to work in just the right place and everybody has to live in just the right place. And if the planners assumptions manage to see into the future of work and hold true, then success means land prices go up in those just right areas.
It is really not that hard if it was planned properly and logically. Anyway, the future increase in land values around those stations can help pay for at least some of the costs.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Wilderbeast »

When the TGV connect Tours to Paris and advertised Tours to Paris in under an hour, do you think demand for homes in Tours changed much?

Spoilers, it boomed.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Sonny Blount »

Auckman wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
Auckman wrote:The best way for this fast train idea to work is to hook it up in conjunction with new housing estates in towns and make sure it goes directly to the main employment areas and tertiary education areas in the nearest city. Might help to pay for some of the costs.
x(

So many assumptions have to hold true over a long period of time for trains to work in NZ. Everybody has to work in just the right place and everybody has to live in just the right place. And if the planners assumptions manage to see into the future of work and hold true, then success means land prices go up in those just right areas.
It is really not that hard if it was planned properly and logically. Anyway, the future increase in land values around those stations can help pay for at least some of the costs.
Trains for rich people...
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Fat Old Git »

Wilderbeast wrote:I am optimistic. It’s based on an idea of hubs so basically links small towns and cities with a large urban centre. I’m theory, the idea is a good one.

Does Christchurch have a central station? I think Wellington’s is pretty decent for a lot off workers in the city, and the buses help if you need to get further in. Auckland takes you right into the heart I understand?
Christchurch doesn't have a proper central station anymore. It's a small station outside of the 4 avenues that mainly caters to the Trans Alpine. I don't think it has a regular bus connection as it spends most of it's time empty.

That would all be solvable though. But you would need to make sure there was a good local transport network in place to support it.

We haven't managed to get ordinary passenger trains to get people from current commuter zones such as Rolleston and Rangiora largely because the trains wouldn't get people to where they need to go, and by the time you factor that in a 30 minute to 1 hour drive is still more appealing to a large percentage of your commuters.

A high speed train might open up the Christchurch job market and be appealing to some who currently live, or want to live in Ashburton or Timaru, but would it be enough to support that link and keep it affordable?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by deadduck »

One only has to take a little trip around the country to see the consequences for the regions of centralising industries. Go to places like Tokomaru Bay or Ohangai in the North Island to see literal ruins of old dairy factories, meat works, seaports etc.
These places died with the advent of road freight to their regions.
High speed rail linking Wellington to places like the Wairarapa will only see further gentrification of those small towns and I wonder what would happen to small businesses in the Horowhenua if Wellington was linked to Palmerston North, as all of a sudden the through traffic is reduced and the local economy splutters out.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by obelixtim »

Car score update. Adding 12 hour totals.

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Tues......703 8436
Wed...… 633 7596
Thurs....621 7452
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Sat...…...555. 6660
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Re: NZ Politics Thread - NEW ZEALAND LOCKDOWN THREAD

Post by Muttonbirds »

I think high speed commuter rail Auckland/Hamilton is worth pursuing in the medium term. Don't know about Tauranga - that would be mostly freight.

The thing about Auckland to Hamilton is not Hamilton itself but the potential for communities to grow in the space between. And grow they would if there were transport options to both Auckland and Hamilton.

Some claim it shouldn't be done because there's a 4 lane motorway due for completion in the next 2-3 years but part of high quality commuting is being able to work/read during the journey. The only thing you do in a car is drive and listen to the radio. Also, there's far more vehicles clogging up the main centres.

Roads for commuting are not productive in terms of time or congestion.
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