NZ Politics Thread

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Ted.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

JPNZ wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:28 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:00 am
Look at it the other way… when is the break point you reach when you decide you’re not going to keep paying over $2 for every litre of fuel you use?
I’m sure you realise that in NZ that nearly 90c of that $2 is tax and the majority of that tax is taken by NZTA. With the move to electric cars obviously the tax take reduces.

Same as diesel vehicles it’s certain that electric vehicles in NZ will soon be hit hard with RUC charges to make up the slack. After all the roads won’t fix themselves
No they won't. So why is NZTA involved at all?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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^^ someone has to collect and distribute all that tax
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

JPNZ wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:28 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:00 am
Look at it the other way… when is the break point you reach when you decide you’re not going to keep paying over $2 for every litre of fuel you use?
I’m sure you realise that in NZ that nearly 90c of that $2 is tax and the majority of that tax is taken by NZTA. With the move to electric cars obviously the tax take reduces.

Same as diesel vehicles it’s certain that electric vehicles in NZ will soon be hit hard with RUC charges to make up the slack. After all the roads won’t fix themselves
Hmmmm... what would I rather pay?

$2.24 / l for 95 unleaded, or ~90c nominal road tax?
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booji boy
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

I was just reading a story about a guy who owns a 2013 Nissan Leaf. The battery is deteriorating and when he bought it he was told the cost of a new battery would be about $5,000. Instead he is now being quoted $15,000.

So when you're doing the maths Guy are you factoring in battery life and replacement?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

No…

What’s the running and maintenance costs on a petrol powered car, if we’re going to look at that issue?

Or is this just an exercise in finding the negatives with EVs?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by JPNZ »

guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:47 pm
Hmmmm... what would I rather pay?

$2.24 / l for 95 unleaded, or ~90c nominal road tax?
Notice you didn’t add any electricity cost on so hardly a fair comparison. If running costs are similar or very slightly cheaper for EVs what’s the benefit apart from being green friendly?
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Monkey Magic
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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booji boy wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:15 pm I was just reading a story about a guy who owns a 2013 Nissan Leaf. The battery is deteriorating and when he bought it he was told the cost of a new battery would be about $5,000. Instead he is now being quoted $15,000.

So when you're doing the maths Guy are you factoring in battery life and replacement?
He needs to go to a dealer who knows what they're talking about. As battery deteriorates they are able to replace individual cells rather than the whole battery pack. Think latest I saw was a guy getting his battery back to where he originally purchased it for a couple of grand.

The only thing apart from a dodgy dealer to say that price would be if he had a 24kwh sized battery currently and was getting it replaced with the larger 30 or 40kwh pack. Doing that would increase the range substantially.

Actually I lie, the other way to get crazy quotes is to go to Nissan nz with a car they didn't sell you. They seem to go out of their way to make any service/replacement crazy expensive

The batteries deteriorate, that is already known and should be factored in when purchasing I.e. making sure the battery life left is enough to cover your normal range for at least 5 years. I have an even older model with older battery tech and that will still last me another 8 years at least unless I move to the country.

In terms of costs, there few moving parts so fewer things to go wrong/service, full service costs about $60. I know when I got mine (prior to auckland regional fuel tax), I could set it on fire after 4 years as it would have already paid for itself, that will be only slightly longer once the RUC exemption is (rightly) over.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

JPNZ wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:22 pm
guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:47 pm
Hmmmm... what would I rather pay?

$2.24 / l for 95 unleaded, or ~90c nominal road tax?
Notice you didn’t add any electricity cost on so hardly a fair comparison. If running costs are similar or very slightly cheaper for EVs what’s the benefit apart from being green friendly?
Mines $10 a week, equivalent petrol car it replaced was running close to $100
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booji boy
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

guy smiley wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:08 pm No…

What’s the running and maintenance costs on a petrol powered car, if we’re going to look at that issue?

Or is this just an exercise in finding the negatives with EVs?
:lol: Don't get all defensive on us now precious.

I was literally reading that article just before I logged into PR.

As long as you go in eyes wide open and don't just compare the cost of petrol without factoring in the battery life and potential replacement costs.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

Monkey Magic wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:27 pm
booji boy wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:15 pm I was just reading a story about a guy who owns a 2013 Nissan Leaf. The battery is deteriorating and when he bought it he was told the cost of a new battery would be about $5,000. Instead he is now being quoted $15,000.

So when you're doing the maths Guy are you factoring in battery life and replacement?
He needs to go to a dealer who knows what they're talking about. As battery deteriorates they are able to replace individual cells rather than the whole battery pack. Think latest I saw was a guy getting his battery back to where he originally purchased it for a couple of grand.

The only thing apart from a dodgy dealer to say that price would be if he had a 24kwh sized battery currently and was getting it replaced with the larger 30 or 40kwh pack. Doing that would increase the range substantially.

Actually I lie, the other way to get crazy quotes is to go to Nissan nz with a car they didn't sell you. They seem to go out of their way to make any service/replacement crazy expensive

The batteries deteriorate, that is already known and should be factored in when purchasing I.e. making sure the battery life left is enough to cover your normal range for at least 5 years. I have an even older model with older battery tech and that will still last me another 8 years at least unless I move to the country.

In terms of costs, there few moving parts so fewer things to go wrong/service, full service costs about $60. I know when I got mine (prior to auckland regional fuel tax), I could set it on fire after 4 years as it would have already paid for itself, that will be only slightly longer once the RUC exemption is (rightly) over.
The story I was reading was about a guy in Canada.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/replacing- ... expensive/

But when I Googled it to find the article I came across this woman who has been quoted $121,000. Seems to tie in with your statement above about Nissan NZ.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zea ... cMQAvD_BwE
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by JPNZ »

Monkey Magic wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:29 pm

Mines $10 a week, equivalent petrol car it replaced was running close to $100
Obviously it’s cheaper right now because EV owners pay no excise tax apart from the small amount that comes from registration. Wait till the government lumps an RUC charge on EVs.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

JPNZ wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:03 pm
Monkey Magic wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:29 pm

Mines $10 a week, equivalent petrol car it replaced was running close to $100
Obviously it’s cheaper right now because EV owners pay no excise tax apart from the small amount that comes from registration. Wait till the government lumps an RUC charge on EVs.
Yes, that will have to be introduced eventually, because EVs use the roads. The lack of RUCs right now is a further subsidy for EVs.

I wish they wouldn't include used petrol imports in the penalty scheme because they are vehicles which low income families have to buy. Limiting exclusions to only existing petrol cars means it will not be very long at all before these vehicles are off the road and out of the market due to age. Also, low income families will be forced into an ever smaller and older fleet, probably pushing those prices up and incurring higher maintenance costs.

The Greens should stick to social policy and stop stuffing around with climate change issues. :smug:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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JPNZ wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:03 pm
Monkey Magic wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:29 pm

Mines $10 a week, equivalent petrol car it replaced was running close to $100
Obviously it’s cheaper right now because EV owners pay no excise tax apart from the small amount that comes from registration. Wait till the government lumps an RUC charge on EVs.
As I mentioned in another post, yep ruc is coming but it will still be cheaper overall than running a petrol car, and glad I got in early as it has been crazy cheap so far. With this rebate it hopefully makes newer models with longer range more accessible.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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I'd love to see a true carbon footprint comparison that factored in everything involved in the manufacture of each type of vehicle from obtaining the raw materials to running the finished product over it's lifetime. And probably factoring in disposal if the change to an EV end up with an internal combustion vehicle being retired early.

I'd like to think the EV would win out, even factoring retiring a vehicle early that has already had all the energy spent on it's production. But it seems difficult to find the full story. There mostly appear to be snippets and cherry picked bits being used by one side of the argument or the other to support their positions. As is often the case, the discussion has been hijacked by politics.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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That doesn’t seem right , booji , cause our neighbours ( serious Greenies ) did very similar and it cost them around the 5k .
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Jeff the Bear »

jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:14 pm So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
Tbf though, you'd have reasonable expectations that those costs will come down over the next 10 years. With the likes of Ford now going hard at this, electric cars will be maintstream in the next 5 to 10 years.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Eugenius wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:00 pm That doesn’t seem right , booji , cause our neighbours ( serious Greenies ) did very similar and it cost them around the 5k .
I posted the link to the story above. $5k seems reasonable. In the story above it was a 2013 Nissan Leaf but the guy only bought it in 2017.

A friend of mine who is also a rabid Greenie owns a Nissan Leaf. He rides a beat up old mountain bike everywhere he goes (work, the pub etc) and his wife uses the Leaf for running around town. He concedes it is a piece of shit but insists it is an early model and EV's will get better and better over time. It has very short range so it's only effective for around town. We had a boys weekend over in Whakatane and he hired a petrol car for the weekend.

Fuck that!

I guess if you are a two car family like my wife and I you could have an EV for around town and a petrol/diesel car for longer range trips. Trouble is both of us need to travel long distances on a regular basis so there's no way I'm compromising like my Greenie mate does.

I mean what if my wife had to go to a conference in Hamilton on the same day I'm playing golf in Turangi 🏌️‍♂️⛳or skiing up Ruapehu? ⛷🏂 Heaven forbid!!!
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/ ... ician-ever

Interesting article on Stuff today. I don't mind admitting that I don't fully understand the financial implications of the decision, in particular how we (as a country) would be financially better off. I'll be keen to hear the views of the subject matter experts here.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:14 pm So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
This is the crux of the matter. Until there is a large, affordable fleet of reliable secondhand EV's that offer similar performance to their petrol equivalent only the rich or the ideologically driven will choose to buy an EV at twice the price.

I have a couple of mates who own Tesla's and love them but they are both rich plum. They certainly don't need this rebate. Though I see the rebate isn't offered on vehicles over $80,000. I think the Tesla's they own start north of $120,000.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Jeff the Bear wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:34 pm
jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:14 pm So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
Tbf though, you'd have reasonable expectations that those costs will come down over the next 10 years. With the likes of Ford now going hard at this, electric cars will be maintstream in the next 5 to 10 years.
Hopefully, I don't know anything about this, but the raw materials to make the batteries, are they readily accessible and is there enough supply to keep up with what will be presumably a huge increase in demand ?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Tehui wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:18 pm https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/ ... ician-ever

Interesting article on Stuff today. I don't mind admitting that I don't fully understand the financial implications of the decision, in particular how we (as a country) would be financially better off. I'll be keen to hear the views of the subject matter experts here.
I think we can definitely agree we would be better off if Muldoon had left it alone. Instead it took another 30 years before Cullen implemented Kiwisaver. Not sure it would have cured cancer and delivered world peace as that article suggests.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:33 pm
Jeff the Bear wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:34 pm
jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:14 pm So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
Tbf though, you'd have reasonable expectations that those costs will come down over the next 10 years. With the likes of Ford now going hard at this, electric cars will be maintstream in the next 5 to 10 years.
Hopefully, I don't know anything about this, but the raw materials to make the batteries, are they readily accessible and is there enough supply to keep up with what will be presumably a huge increase in demand ?
The comparisons have been done a lot and EV tends to come out on top, the margin however is also determined by how electricity is generated - mainly renewable like nz, then EV miles ahead. Will try and find a decent non-shouty/we are the best link when I get home

The Kona and Kia Niro are over priced for what they are, things like the leaf and the new MG are more what long term will make this change work. Not hugely expensive as new, but should be flooding in over the next 5 years as used for 15k or less.

On the tech side of it things are changing improving across the board on terms of extraction of materials, battery life, use of batteries once they are no longer usable for cars. A lot if the end of life uses are in their infancy as there isn't yet the supply of used up batteries to run a new business off them, whether that be re-purpose for home usage etc.

Agree regarding the two car family, that works for me in Auckland, can do everything in the city in the leaf, long trips use the petrol car. When we replace the petrol it will likely be with a plug in hybrid like the Mitsubishi Outlander. Will make normal travel pretty cheap but can still do a summer road trip easily
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

The cars companies will come up- with cheaper options as the consumers demand it.

Also, with the subsidies only available once for the cars, I think there will be a steady supply of second hand ones in time.

My major concern is battery life and replacement. Either someone is going to make a fortune if they can develop a way to rejuvenate them or the companies supplying will have to fine a better option. At the moment, I wouldn't want to spend the amount needed for a vehicle under 5 years old and would be too worried to buy one over 5 years old due to the battery prices.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

Jeff the Bear wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:34 pm
jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:14 pm So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
Tbf though, you'd have reasonable expectations that those costs will come down over the next 10 years. With the likes of Ford now going hard at this, electric cars will be maintstream in the next 5 to 10 years.
You would hope so. An EV is a far less complex beastie to manufacture than a petrol or diesel powered vehicle, from motor to drive train. I think manufacturers, or in our case importers, are taking the piss.
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Ted.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

Tehui wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:18 pm https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/ ... ician-ever

Interesting article on Stuff today. I don't mind admitting that I don't fully understand the financial implications of the decision, in particular how we (as a country) would be financially better off. I'll be keen to hear the views of the subject matter experts here.
I'm glad someone posted that, otherwise I would have. I remember at the time that, as a worker who was glad to contribute to the Govt Super scheme, how gutted I and many of my friends and colleagues were.

It was straight out Reds Under The Beds propaganda from, perhaps, our most socialist yet authoritarian PM ever and his National supporters lapped it up, hook line and sinker and a fair few Labourites went down the same path.

It was one of the most cowardly, vote grubbing moves by a NZ political party, though TBF, Muldoon was no stranger to cowardice, nastiness or vote grubbing. Poor little, naive, NZ didn't really know what to think or do.

Then of course, by the time Lange got his hands on the tiller, the Neo Liberal Reganites were in full cry and we were f**ked.

The same sort fudge NZ we know better ideology saw us sell off our national forests for a pittance, leading to our logs heading off shore now and being a factor in relation to the rampant inflation we see in construction materials.

fudge Mulldoon! :x
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by jambanja »

Ted. wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:50 am
Jeff the Bear wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:34 pm
jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:14 pm So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
Tbf though, you'd have reasonable expectations that those costs will come down over the next 10 years. With the likes of Ford now going hard at this, electric cars will be maintstream in the next 5 to 10 years.
You would hope so. An EV is a far less complex beastie to manufacture than a petrol or diesel powered vehicle, from motor to drive train. I think manufacturers, or in our case importers, are taking the piss.
The extra cost of manufacturing battery electric cars versus their fossil fuel equivalents will diminish to just $1,900 (£1,470) per car by 2022, and disappear completely by 2024, according to research by the investment bank UBS. The research is based on detailed analysis of batteries from the seven largest manufacturers.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

Enzedder wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:42 am The cars companies will come up- with cheaper options as the consumers demand it.

Also, with the subsidies only available once for the cars, I think there will be a steady supply of second hand ones in time.

My major concern is battery life and replacement. Either someone is going to make a fortune if they can develop a way to rejuvenate them or the companies supplying will have to fine a better option. At the moment, I wouldn't want to spend the amount needed for a vehicle under 5 years old and would be too worried to buy one over 5 years old due to the battery prices.
On your last point, it really depends how much driving you do on am average day. I have a 2011 model which has the smallest battery at 24kwh and get 100k per charge out of it, and just plug it in when I get home at night.

From memory you do a lot of running around each day, delivering meals or something similar? If thats the case depending on your budget waiting a couple more years should be worth it as you'd have something that is second hand but still last you another 10 years. From about 2016 the leafs switched to 40kwh batteries which is a massive leap from the 2011 size
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:37 am
jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:33 pm
Jeff the Bear wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:34 pm
jambanja wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:14 pm So a new Hyundai Kona electric starts at 73,000, it's petrol equivalent starts at 35,000, less than half the electric
Unless the difference between those prices can be cut dramatically then this new policy is a busted flush and will have a very negative impact on working class Kiwis
Tbf though, you'd have reasonable expectations that those costs will come down over the next 10 years. With the likes of Ford now going hard at this, electric cars will be maintstream in the next 5 to 10 years.
Hopefully, I don't know anything about this, but the raw materials to make the batteries, are they readily accessible and is there enough supply to keep up with what will be presumably a huge increase in demand ?
The comparisons have been done a lot and EV tends to come out on top, the margin however is also determined by how electricity is generated - mainly renewable like nz, then EV miles ahead. Will try and find a decent non-shouty/we are the best link when I get home

The Kona and Kia Niro are over priced for what they are, things like the leaf and the new MG are more what long term will make this change work. Not hugely expensive as new, but should be flooding in over the next 5 years as used for 15k or less.

On the tech side of it things are changing improving across the board on terms of extraction of materials, battery life, use of batteries once they are no longer usable for cars. A lot if the end of life uses are in their infancy as there isn't yet the supply of used up batteries to run a new business off them, whether that be re-purpose for home usage etc.

Agree regarding the two car family, that works for me in Auckland, can do everything in the city in the leaf, long trips use the petrol car. When we replace the petrol it will likely be with a plug in hybrid like the Mitsubishi Outlander. Will make normal travel pretty cheap but can still do a summer road trip easily
Best of both worlds. :thumbup:

Are hybrids going to still be around long term or will they too be phased out in the push to go 100% electric?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

The best advice around fuel use is for the entire world to stop using fossil fuels as soon as possible.

Like, tomorrow. I know a lot of people are sceptical about climate change or the need for them to do anything about it because their neck of the woods is just fine thanks…

Imagine though, how a 1/2 m sea level rise could change that popular sentiment? All those peachy beachside holiday homes…


So I think even hybrids will be phased out… internal combustion is on the way out and rapidly, too. Technology is moving quickly in the field. NZ is well placed for providing clean power generation. All we need is a few small shifts in attitude and we can transition over pretty efficiently. Some website I saw the other day claims there are recharge stations every 75km across the country. Might not be prominent but they’re around, at least. There are cars appearing on the market with over 300km range available although our hilly roads might cut that quite a bit… but as with the Leaf, advances in tech and quality are pushing those ranges out all the time.

My sister and BIL have a Leaf they bought as an import 4 years ago. It was already about 3 years old then. It’s still got decent battery life and handles all their needs living at West Melton and commuting 25km into town and back every day, along with weekend shopping trips etc. solar panels on the roof along with underfloor heating and their energy costs are negligible. Add a large battery to the solar array and they’d kill it.

That’s where we as a country could easily be headed but what we’re doing instead is building subdivisions with no parking let alone space to charge an EV. We’re pretty dumb like that.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

What about long haul air travel? Is there ever going to be an electric plane that can replace fossil fuel powered jets in terms of speed and range?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

guy smiley wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:02 am The best advice around fuel use is for the entire world to stop using fossil fuels as soon as possible.

Like, tomorrow. I know a lot of people are sceptical about climate change or the need for them to do anything about it because their neck of the woods is just fine thanks…

Imagine though, how a 1/2 m sea level rise could change that popular sentiment? All those peachy beachside holiday homes…


So I think even hybrids will be phased out… internal combustion is on the way out and rapidly, too. Technology is moving quickly in the field. NZ is well placed for providing clean power generation. All we need is a few small shifts in attitude and we can transition over pretty efficiently. Some website I saw the other day claims there are recharge stations every 75km across the country. Might not be prominent but they’re around, at least. There are cars appearing on the market with over 300km range available although our hilly roads might cut that quite a bit… but as with the Leaf, advances in tech and quality are pushing those ranges out all the time.

My sister and BIL have a Leaf they bought as an import 4 years ago. It was already about 3 years old then. It’s still got decent battery life and handles all their needs living at West Melton and commuting 25km into town and back every day, along with weekend shopping trips etc. solar panels on the roof along with underfloor heating and their energy costs are negligible. Add a large battery to the solar array and they’d kill it.

That’s where we as a country could easily be headed but what we’re doing instead is building subdivisions with no parking let alone space to charge an EV. We’re pretty dumb like that.
Oh dear. And cutting funding for major roading projects that will be needed to service these subdivisions to drive our EV's on.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

I think over time hybrids will phase out as the battery tech gets better. While at the moment it's the best of both worlds to a degree, you still have the level of servicing of a combustion engine which is increased cost plus more things that can go wrong.

They are already bringing in electric trucks - albeit slowly- if the research is done on that massive commercial level you can bet the normal passenger car is also going to get far more efficient.. I think there was something like 100k range difference between a 2011 and 2016 leaf, as more models come online its not unreasonable to think you could buy something for under 30k which does over 300km brand new in the next 5 years. For the vast majority of city dwellers 150km per day would be more than enough
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guy smiley
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

booji boy wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:10 am What about long haul air travel? Is there ever going to be an electric plane that can replace fossil fuel powered jets in terms of speed and range?
Vegetable based oils might be the way forward there.

Re the road funding… I get that we have to balance a budget that has been loaded with Covid and sensible governments have to be seen to limit spending blah blah blah… but we’re looking at systemic neglect coupled with high population growth. We need a good look at infrastructure demands and a set of projects lined up according to risk based priorities. Safety is an issue. Driving SH2 is a jokeshop right now and the traffic on that road is really heavy. I’m sure there are other projects like that that need doing… but Phark me. That should be done.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

booji boy wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:13 am
guy smiley wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:02 am The best advice around fuel use is for the entire world to stop using fossil fuels as soon as possible.

Like, tomorrow. I know a lot of people are sceptical about climate change or the need for them to do anything about it because their neck of the woods is just fine thanks…

Imagine though, how a 1/2 m sea level rise could change that popular sentiment? All those peachy beachside holiday homes…


So I think even hybrids will be phased out… internal combustion is on the way out and rapidly, too. Technology is moving quickly in the field. NZ is well placed for providing clean power generation. All we need is a few small shifts in attitude and we can transition over pretty efficiently. Some website I saw the other day claims there are recharge stations every 75km across the country. Might not be prominent but they’re around, at least. There are cars appearing on the market with over 300km range available although our hilly roads might cut that quite a bit… but as with the Leaf, advances in tech and quality are pushing those ranges out all the time.

My sister and BIL have a Leaf they bought as an import 4 years ago. It was already about 3 years old then. It’s still got decent battery life and handles all their needs living at West Melton and commuting 25km into town and back every day, along with weekend shopping trips etc. solar panels on the roof along with underfloor heating and their energy costs are negligible. Add a large battery to the solar array and they’d kill it.

That’s where we as a country could easily be headed but what we’re doing instead is building subdivisions with no parking let alone space to charge an EV. We’re pretty dumb like that.
Oh dear. And cutting funding for major roading projects that will be needed to service these subdivisions to drive our EV's on.
On the subdivision thing it's bloody criminal. I've mentioned before some of the ones out by ormiston/flat bush in Auckland. Tiny streets, 6 bedroom houses on top of each other and 1 off street park. They're going to be a shitshow electric cars or not.

The 75km per charger I think was clever writing, think it averages out as that. The infrastructure has been a but slow with I think only Chargenet really trying to put together a national network but happy to be corrected on that, but there are some big holes in the network especially in South Island
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by terangi48 »

Where does the hydrogen cell technology lie in all this? Does the hydrogen cell produce electricity for the car to run on or is it just a type of internal combustion engine? Apparently it is Toyota's go to option.......
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

guy smiley wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:02 am The best advice around fuel use is for the entire world to stop using fossil fuels as soon as possible.

Like, tomorrow. I know a lot of people are sceptical about climate change or the need for them to do anything about it because their neck of the woods is just fine thanks…

Imagine though, how a 1/2 m sea level rise could change that popular sentiment? All those peachy beachside holiday homes…


So I think even hybrids will be phased out… internal combustion is on the way out and rapidly, too. Technology is moving quickly in the field. NZ is well placed for providing clean power generation. All we need is a few small shifts in attitude and we can transition over pretty efficiently. Some website I saw the other day claims there are recharge stations every 75km across the country. Might not be prominent but they’re around, at least. There are cars appearing on the market with over 300km range available although our hilly roads might cut that quite a bit… but as with the Leaf, advances in tech and quality are pushing those ranges out all the time.

My sister and BIL have a Leaf they bought as an import 4 years ago. It was already about 3 years old then. It’s still got decent battery life and handles all their needs living at West Melton and commuting 25km into town and back every day, along with weekend shopping trips etc. solar panels on the roof along with underfloor heating and their energy costs are negligible. Add a large battery to the solar array and they’d kill it.

That’s where we as a country could easily be headed but what we’re doing instead is building subdivisions with no parking let alone space to charge an EV. We’re pretty dumb like that.
I only saw a brief report on the TV, but the impression that I got was that it was the plan to have recharging points every 75kms, rather than the existing infrastructure.

But we've had these discussions before. Having a charging point is one thing. Having enough to turn people around quickly so you don't arrive and find them all taken with hours to wait before one will be available, is quite another thing. And is one of the reasons I hope Hydrogen tech gets up there. As old Top Gear put it, it's the car of the future because it's so much like the car of today"

Although I think we talked about swap out batteries as another possible solution.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

booji boy wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:10 am What about long haul air travel? Is there ever going to be an electric plane that can replace fossil fuel powered jets in terms of speed and range?
Yes. They are talking about electric planes now. Maybe hydrogen is a better option, though.

I don't like so called bio-fuels (where the fudge did the fossil fuels come from in the first place.....), they just mean that more trees will be hacked down or food crops uprooted to make way from something that uses currently sequestrated carbon to produce a fuel that releases a form of carbon to the atmosphere as as a by-product. Somehow I think we've been down this track previously......

Re charging stations, supermarkets and mall car parks are the obvious choice, plug em in while you shop. I know for the fact that all new Woolworths owned supermarket chains will have charging stations and no doubt, they will retrofit existing supermarket car parks with the same. If one chain does it, the rest will surely follow.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Ted. wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:11 am
booji boy wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:10 am What about long haul air travel? Is there ever going to be an electric plane that can replace fossil fuel powered jets in terms of speed and range?
Yes. They are talking about electric planes now. Maybe hydrogen is a better option, though.

I don't like so called bio-fuels (where the fudge did the fossil fuels come from in the first place.....), they just mean that more trees will be hacked down or food crops uprooted to make way from something that uses currently sequestrated carbon to produce a fuel that releases a form of carbon to the atmosphere as as a by-product. Somehow I think we've been down this track previously......

Re charging stations, supermarkets and mall car parks are the obvious choice, plug em in while you shop. I know for the fact that all new Woolworths owned supermarket chains will have charging stations and no doubt, they will retrofit existing supermarket car parks with the same. If one chain does it, the rest will surely follow.

Who is paying for this?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Actually have a bit mixed feelings on this one.

I mean no one likes tax money being spent on free cigs, for doing f all, but give them a break.

It is legal and if they are looking after their kids who cares?

It is a legal product and plenty of people with jobs are shit parents.
Government signed off on BP policy letting beneficiaries misuse WINZ cards to buy cigarettes, other banned items

Yhe Government approved a policy at BP petrol stations allowing beneficiaries to misuse their Work and Income (WINZ) Payment Cards to buy cigarettes, Lotto tickets and other banned items, Newshub can reveal.

Under Ministry of Social Development (MSD) rules, WINZ cards can only be used to buy approved items like food, petrol or clothing, while purchases of alcohol, cigarettes, vouchers, Lotto tickets and electronics are expressly prohibited.

But Newshub has learned the MSD signed off on a BP policy in December 2019 that lets beneficiaries buy items they hadn't been approved for

BP says it adopted the policy because it was concerned about staff being abused when cards were declined or misused.

The MSD confirmed it sanctioned the move because BP had threatened to stop accepting WINZ cards, leaving them in a situation where some beneficiaries "might not be able to get petrol in situations of urgent need".

BP told Newshub it's committed to finding a better solution going forward, with MSD carrying out a review into its IT and payment systems.

'I'm incensed this is allowed to happen'
Newshub learned of the controversial policy after a BP employee in Wainuiomata revealed the company's national office had sent a memo informing staff to stop vetting purchases made on WINZ cards.

They believed the memo had been sent to all staff at 93 BP Connect stores nationwide.

They also supplied receipts to Newshub of beneficiaries who'd bought unapproved items with their WINZ cards, such as tobacco products, vouchers and gift cards.

It's not the first time a petrol chain has allowed beneficiaries to buy banned items on WINZ cards. In 2017, Z Energy staff in Hamilton were warned after workers let card-holders purchase gift cards that were then used to buy cigarettes.

The MSD at that time said it would take any fraudulent use of WINZ cards seriously.

The BP Connect employee Newshub spoke to said the company's head office was making staff turn a blind eye to something that is "clearly wrong".

"This misuse is a weekly occurrence at our store," they told Newshub. "As a taxpayer and an employee of BP I am incensed that this is being allowed to happen."

In response to a Newshub enquiry, the MSD pointed out that while WINZ card use occasionally comes at a cost to the taxpayer, beneficiaries have to pay back funds loaded onto the cards in "the very great majority of cases".

Funds loaded on to payment cards for petrol are an advance payment of their benefit. Repayments are then set up to begin deducting out of their benefit," explained George Van Ooyen, group general manager for client service support.

"Payments are not approved for everyday petrol expenses but for urgent or unforeseen costs, such as attending a funeral or tangi, or being stranded away from where they usually live.

"Less commonly, we may also approve petrol grants for people in their first two weeks of work if they need help with the cost of getting to work. These don't have to be paid back."

Why the MSD agreed to the BP policy
BP told Newshub it had decided to stop vetting purchases made on WINZ cards because it could no longer guarantee its "number one priority" - the safety of customers and staff - was being met.

"The Ministry of Social Development is supportive of our team members currently accepting a WINZ Payment Card for all purchases given the safety concerns this issue was causing," a spokesperson said.

"We made this decision following consultation with the Ministry as some customers were abusive towards our team members when WINZ payment card purchases were declined or being misused."

The spokesperson said BP is in contact with the MSD to "develop a better system and process" on the use of WINZ cards. The MSD says it's reviewing its payment and IT systems.

Van Ooyen said BP had approached the MSD in December 2019 to warn that its stores would no longer be enforcing the use of payment card money exclusively on petrol.

"They told us that if we required them to continue enforcing use of the cards on petrol, then they would no longer accept the payment cards," he said.

"We were faced with the situation that some clients might not be able to get petrol in situations of urgent need. As a result we agreed to BP's proposal."

The MSD says this arrangement is not in place with any retailer other than BP.

Van Ooyen says retailers are generally helpful in ensuring funds are spent only on approved items.

Where the MSD is made aware of businesses allowing the cards to be used wrongly, he says "we can and do discontinue use of those suppliers" and can also investigate and prosecute beneficiaries who misuse funds.
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