NZ Politics Thread

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Ted.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

Here's an article on the use of Aotearoa to collectively describe New Zealand, the way it has gained traction, especially among government departments and corporates, and the opposition to its use. There's also some background information in relation to Michael King's views and some history on the name.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... r-aotearoa
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
Last edited by Mr Mike on Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Ted. wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:29 pm Here's an article on the use of Aotearoa to collectively describe New Zealand, the way it has gained traction, especially among government departments and corporates, and the opposition to its use. There's also some background information in relation to Michael King's views and some history on the name.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... r-aotearoa
First take from that for me is the popular tendency to take one view and try to promote that as the one and only truth. While we see that tendency used a lot nowadays by conservatives in what is loosely described as 'the culture wars' I don't think it fair or wise to suggest that only one group do this. Here we see that Michael King's opinion has been held up to be the One Truth, or in PR speak, FACT.

The problem with that lazy slide into assumption of FACT is that history is more nuanced and truth tends to be more layered, requiring careful sifting and sorting that weeds out inaccuracies which in turn narrows down the likely reality.

Sensationalists don't like that sort of careful attention to detail.

I imagine that Rawiri Taonui's opinion might not carry as much weight on talkback radio or in a Judith Collins' press conference, for example... while David Seymour is probably busy with a wax doll and some matches.

Second takeaway for mine is best expressed by Denis O'Rourke, who makes what I think is a decent or perhaps, useful point...
“I do not approve of the name Aotearoa, but not on racial grounds,” he says by email. “I think that we should use the Māori names for the South and North Islands because they are authentic.
I imagine the likes of the aforementioned Judith Collins and those of her ilk would just love to exchange their resistance to using Aotearoa for Te Wai Pounamu, Rakiura and Te Ika a Maui... just picture the exploding heads, if you can.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

The debate around Aotearoa vs New Zealand always makes me a little sad as it tends to show how terribly mono lingual our nation is.

Both are perfectly valid names in our two official languages. Just as Yeni Zealand would be valid if we were speaking Turkish.

Not that it worry me if we officially change it to be the same in both languages. It just feels a bit pointless and based on lack of understanding around how languages work. Like having a debate about if you visited Germany, Deutschland or Allemange while on a European holiday.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
Out of interest, was Nu Tirani, for what we know as New Zealand, in universal or wide use? Or, was it simply what Hobson or his scribes had heard from the local Maori that they had associated mist with?

Not that it matters, I like your rationale for adopting Aotearoa and renaming the bits to the north and the bits to the south of Cooks Strait [sic], on the proviso there is consensus among Maori.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

guy smiley wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:29 pm Here's an article on the use of Aotearoa to collectively describe New Zealand, the way it has gained traction, especially among government departments and corporates, and the opposition to its use. There's also some background information in relation to Michael King's views and some history on the name.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... r-aotearoa
First take from that for me is the popular tendency to take one view and try to promote that as the one and only truth. While we see that tendency used a lot nowadays by conservatives in what is loosely described as 'the culture wars' I don't think it fair or wise to suggest that only one group do this. Here we see that Michael King's opinion has been held up to be the One Truth, or in PR speak, FACT.

The problem with that lazy slide into assumption of FACT is that history is more nuanced and truth tends to be more layered, requiring careful sifting and sorting that weeds out inaccuracies which in turn narrows down the likely reality.

Sensationalists don't like that sort of careful attention to detail.

I imagine that Rawiri Taonui's opinion might not carry as much weight on talkback radio or in a Judith Collins' press conference, for example... while David Seymour is probably busy with a wax doll and some matches.

Second takeaway for mine is best expressed by Denis O'Rourke, who makes what I think is a decent or perhaps, useful point...
“I do not approve of the name Aotearoa, but not on racial grounds,” he says by email. “I think that we should use the Māori names for the South and North Islands because they are authentic.
I imagine the likes of the aforementioned Judith Collins and those of her ilk would just love to exchange their resistance to using Aotearoa for Te Wai Pounamu, Rakiura and Te Ika a Maui... just picture the exploding heads, if you can.
Aotearoa has and is gaining acceptance for all of NZ, even if this wasn't used by all Maori in the past. So I have no issue with it as a name for the entire country. Culture isn't static. (I was also unaware that King's was held up as the One Truth/FACT).

Really, if we use the term Maori to describe, well Maori, despite the fact no one ever used the term Maori to Maori to describe the peoples of Aotearoa (or Te Ika a Maui, Te Waipounamu, Raikura and Rekohu if you prefer) - then using the umbrella term Aotearoa seems fine today. If only for the fact the alternative is too bloody long.

The reason I bring this up is I was listening to a podcast discussing the Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga "invasion" of the Chatham Islands. And the outside listener would take the following away from it - the "Maori" invaded the Chatham Islands and subjugated this other people the Moriori. Rather than one group of Polynesian people invaded and subjugated another group of Polynesian people, which had been happening all across NZ after the arrival of the whiteys and their muskets. Ngati Kahungunu were either subjugated or chased out of huge parts of Hawkes Bay when tribes from the north came down with the muskets, before gaining muskets after a few years and reconquering the lands they lost.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:20 am
Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
Out of interest, was Nu Tirani, for what we know as New Zealand, in universal or wide use? Or, was it simply what Hobson or his scribes had heard from the local Maori that they had associated mist with?
I think it was in quite widespread use (it's in a lot of old writing), but there is clear move away from transliteration of English words in Te Reo Maori these days.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

The English name is just an English version of the original dutch Nieuw Zealand. And not even the original European name iirc.

So coming up with a common name wasn't limited just to the Maori language.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:45 am
Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:20 am
Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
Out of interest, was Nu Tirani, for what we know as New Zealand, in universal or wide use? Or, was it simply what Hobson or his scribes had heard from the local Maori that they had associated mist with?
I think it was in quite widespread use (it's in a lot of old writing), but there is clear move away from transliteration of English words in Te Reo Maori these days.
Cheers. I should have looked up the meaning. So, it might have been in use, but could be seen as less valid than, say, Aotearoa.

Aotearoa comes off the tongue very nicely as well.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Wignu »

Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:47 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:45 am
Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:20 am
Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
Out of interest, was Nu Tirani, for what we know as New Zealand, in universal or wide use? Or, was it simply what Hobson or his scribes had heard from the local Maori that they had associated mist with?
I think it was in quite widespread use (it's in a lot of old writing), but there is clear move away from transliteration of English words in Te Reo Maori these days.
Cheers. I should have looked up the meaning. So, it might have been in use, but could be seen as less valid than, say, Aotearoa.

Aotearoa comes off the tongue very nicely as well.
When it's pronounced properly!!
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Wignu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:00 am
Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:47 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:45 am
Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:20 am
Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
Out of interest, was Nu Tirani, for what we know as New Zealand, in universal or wide use? Or, was it simply what Hobson or his scribes had heard from the local Maori that they had associated mist with?
I think it was in quite widespread use (it's in a lot of old writing), but there is clear move away from transliteration of English words in Te Reo Maori these days.
Cheers. I should have looked up the meaning. So, it might have been in use, but could be seen as less valid than, say, Aotearoa.

Aotearoa comes off the tongue very nicely as well.
When it's pronounced properly!!
Yeah, we need Split Enz to re-release Six Months in a Leaky Boat with the correct pronunciation so that people stop saying it that way.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Wignu »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:29 am
Wignu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:00 am
Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:47 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:45 am
Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:20 am

Out of interest, was Nu Tirani, for what we know as New Zealand, in universal or wide use? Or, was it simply what Hobson or his scribes had heard from the local Maori that they had associated mist with?
I think it was in quite widespread use (it's in a lot of old writing), but there is clear move away from transliteration of English words in Te Reo Maori these days.
Cheers. I should have looked up the meaning. So, it might have been in use, but could be seen as less valid than, say, Aotearoa.

Aotearoa comes off the tongue very nicely as well.
When it's pronounced properly!!
Yeah, we need Split Enz to re-release Six Months in a Leaky Boat with the correct pronunciation so that people stop saying it that way.
What's wrong with sex????
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

Interesting piece - what would a delta variant breakout here in NZ look like.

My answer is, like a sewer. We will never be ready but it's going to come.
New Zealand has so far escaped an outbreak of the Covid-19 Delta variant. But as it takes off across the Tasman, can our luck hold? And are we ready if it does strike? Rachel Thomas investigates.

Our health system would be overwhelmed if the Covid-19 Delta variant takes hold in New Zealand, experts warn.

“If you have an un-contained Delta outbreak it's going to take down any health system,” says Auckland University Professor Shaun Hendy. “Do we have enough ICU beds? No.”

Not only that: “The way things are playing out in Sydney ... our health system would be quickly overwhelmed by a Delta outbreak. We'd have to tighten up level 4.”

New Zealand remains vulnerable because of low vaccination rates: just 14 per cent of the population is fully vaccinated (around 21 per cent have had at least one dose). Overseas, there are already suggestions a third booster shot might be needed against Delta, to be as effective.

Otago University public health expert Michael Baker says while our alert levels have helped us keep the virus out, they are no longer fit for purpose.

More options at alert level 2 were needed and particularly the use of mass-masking – wearing a mask in all indoor environments, apart from your own home.

Baker said the lack of experience with “mass masking” was a real weakness in New Zealand’s defences against the variant and put us well behind most other countries, where it had become standard.

He and other public health experts have called for mass mask-wearing to be included in one of the Covid-19 response alert levels but the Government has so far not acted on the advice.

“There's a remarkable resistance to getting a mask culture ready to go if we need it,” Baker said.

Another major vulnerability was voluntary QR code scanning, which Baker says has “consistently failed”.

Without mandatory scanning, contact tracing would take longer, making it harder to win the race against the more infectious Delta variant.

“It means the incubation period is shorter and that eats away at your precious hours to a day or two for contact tracing. That’s why you need every advantage that you can. That means being able to trace an [infected person’s] contacts very quickly, so you can avoid a lock-down.”

New Zealand’s best plan of attack in the event of a Delta outbreak, Hendy says, would be level 4 on steroids, including a reduced essential workforce, home Covid-19 tests, and vaccinating essential workers.

It’s been well over a year since the pandemic first gained a footing in New Zealand and the advice was clear – that allowing Covid-19 to reach widely into the community risked overwhelming hospitals, in particular Intensive Care Units (ICU), which had few beds and ventilators to manage the projected numbers who'd need them.

While lockdown never saw that eventuate, health officials acknowledged their bed numbers needed to increase. Tallying those bed numbers is not a simple exercise, thanks to fragmented district health board figures, and differences in how those beds are calculated.

In May 2020, there were 358 ICU-capable beds across the country, according to the Ministry of Health. At the time, the ministry said DHBs were increasing their capacity of ICU capable beds and said it received advice which said there would be 552 ICU-capable beds by July 2020.

There are now more ventilators, after the Government purchased an extra 300. But as of last month, there were just 284 beds in ICU units nationwide – fewer than a year ago.

The Ministry of Health’s associate deputy director-general of DHB planning, funding and accountability, Jess Smaling, said that doesn't necessarily mean capacity has fallen, however, as there was a difference between ICU beds, and ICU-capable beds.

There were beds that could be staffed and able to accept a ventilator if required.

Winter, and the RSV outbreak, has already stretched capacity, however. Pressure on resources was the reason for the initial refusal to take a Covid-19 patient from Fiji. That decision was later reversed, and the patient was flown to Middlemore last week.

But even with all the beds in the world, New Zealand would struggle to staff an outbreak, Dr Bryan Betty, medical director at the Royal New Zealand College of General Practitioners, says.

“Winter would be a difficult time for a Delta outbreak, from a general practice point of view.” While the surge in respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, has begun to drop off in the past fortnight – at least in doctor’s clinics – in Wellington, where RSV hit particularly hard, hospitals are still dealing with cases.

On Friday, there were 12 children with RSV and respiratory-type illnesses in Wellington's Regional Hospital including one in ICU. Five children were being treated in Hutt Hospital.

Meanwhile, says Betty, “There’s a shortage nationwide of GPs due to border restrictions and the number we’re training is not enough to keep up. It's a very stretched workload and a very stretched workforce, and of course we're seeing that in nursing as well. There’s quite a gap with community nurses.”

Ministry of Health workforce data estimated there were 113 intensive care specialists practising in NZ in 2020 during our first Covid outbreak, and the latest medical register data shows that figure is unchanged.

If hospitals had to gear up to staff 550 ICU beds, that would mean a 50 per cent increase in the workload for specialists, according to the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists. There has been no increase either in the number of specialist ICU nurses – which stands at 2500.

Says Dr Bryan Betty: “We need to be asking serious questions about the workforce required if there was to be an outbreak at any scale. Obviously the number of ICU beds and ventilators is really important, hospital capacity is really important... but the government needs to make sure both sides are supported.”

Shaun Hendy belives staffing a pandemic outbreak “would be a real challenge” with current numbers.

“You can surge for a while but eventually those staff need to take breaks. To run our ICUs for more than several weeks at capacity would not be feasible.”

Director of Upper Hutt ICU and New Zealand College of Intensive Care Medicine chair Andrew Stapleton said ICUs would be vulnerable to all strains of Covid-19 until vaccination rates increase.

ICUs had significantly increased equipment such as ventilators since the beginning of the pandemic but they would “run out of staff before running out of equipment”.

”We have thought about and practised how we would respond to a covid outbreak, so are better prepared in that sense,” Stapleton said.

Hendy said while New Zealand’s alert level system worked well against the original Alpha strain during Auckland’s community outbreak last year, Delta is a sneakier beast.

“The big thing is the increase in transmissibility for Delta. We're thinking unchecked it might give us an effective reproductive number from 5.5 to 6.”

Baker has more confidence a stay at home order would work to stamp out a Delta outbreak, but said that was very disruptive and could take a long time.

Evidence to date suggests having Delta doesn't change your chances of dying from Covid-19. Betty said current understanding suggests an outbreak of Delta would follow about the same formula as the original strain.

“If you had 1000 people with Covid-19 – 800 will have mild symptoms, 10 per cent will be moderate, and 10 per cent may need hospital admission. Of that 10 per cent, 1-4 per cent will need intensive care and a small number will die. So the more you have in the community the more you have in hospital.”

As far as what we can do right now, it’s clear the best line of defence is vaccination, Hendy said.

“Vaccination really helps. Every vaccine helps reduce the risk from Delta. And let's keep our fingers crossed we don't have an outbreak over the next little while.”
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by RuggaBugga »

Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
:thumbup:

Also we wouldn't have to wait so long at the olympic opening ceremony.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by RuggaBugga »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:43 am
guy smiley wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:29 pm Here's an article on the use of Aotearoa to collectively describe New Zealand, the way it has gained traction, especially among government departments and corporates, and the opposition to its use. There's also some background information in relation to Michael King's views and some history on the name.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... r-aotearoa
First take from that for me is the popular tendency to take one view and try to promote that as the one and only truth. While we see that tendency used a lot nowadays by conservatives in what is loosely described as 'the culture wars' I don't think it fair or wise to suggest that only one group do this. Here we see that Michael King's opinion has been held up to be the One Truth, or in PR speak, FACT.

The problem with that lazy slide into assumption of FACT is that history is more nuanced and truth tends to be more layered, requiring careful sifting and sorting that weeds out inaccuracies which in turn narrows down the likely reality.

Sensationalists don't like that sort of careful attention to detail.

I imagine that Rawiri Taonui's opinion might not carry as much weight on talkback radio or in a Judith Collins' press conference, for example... while David Seymour is probably busy with a wax doll and some matches.

Second takeaway for mine is best expressed by Denis O'Rourke, who makes what I think is a decent or perhaps, useful point...
“I do not approve of the name Aotearoa, but not on racial grounds,” he says by email. “I think that we should use the Māori names for the South and North Islands because they are authentic.
I imagine the likes of the aforementioned Judith Collins and those of her ilk would just love to exchange their resistance to using Aotearoa for Te Wai Pounamu, Rakiura and Te Ika a Maui... just picture the exploding heads, if you can.
Aotearoa has and is gaining acceptance for all of NZ, even if this wasn't used by all Maori in the past. So I have no issue with it as a name for the entire country. Culture isn't static. (I was also unaware that King's was held up as the One Truth/FACT).

Really, if we use the term Maori to describe, well Maori, despite the fact no one ever used the term Maori to Maori to describe the peoples of Aotearoa (or Te Ika a Maui, Te Waipounamu, Raikura and Rekohu if you prefer) - then using the umbrella term Aotearoa seems fine today. If only for the fact the alternative is too bloody long.

The reason I bring this up is I was listening to a podcast discussing the Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga "invasion" of the Chatham Islands. And the outside listener would take the following away from it - the "Maori" invaded the Chatham Islands and subjugated this other people the Moriori. Rather than one group of Polynesian people invaded and subjugated another group of Polynesian people, which had been happening all across NZ after the arrival of the whiteys and their muskets. Ngati Kahungunu were either subjugated or chased out of huge parts of Hawkes Bay when tribes from the north came down with the muskets, before gaining muskets after a few years and reconquering the lands they lost.
What's the podcast? I'd be interested in giving that a listen.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

RuggaBugga wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:52 pm
Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
:thumbup:

Also we wouldn't have to wait so long at the olympic opening ceremony.
That's certainly a selling point the marketing people could get behind. :thumbup:


But I think we might be missing a trick from Mr Mike's post. How cool would "Here be Dragons" be as a name?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Interesting happenings today.

Labour govt apologising for their bltantly racist Dawn Raids policy.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-31/ ... /100221044

No word yet on the same for their racist, xenophobic list of "Asiany sounding names" and "Two Wongs don't make a white" from their Foreign Minister.
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Ted.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

Enzedder wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:38 pm Interesting piece - what would a delta variant breakout here in NZ look like.

My answer is, like a sewer. We will never be ready but it's going to come.
New Zealand has so far escaped an outbreak of the Covid-19 Delta variant. But as it takes off across the Tasman, can our luck hold? And are we ready if it does strike? Rachel Thomas investigates.

Our health system would be overwhelmed if the Covid-19 Delta variant takes hold in New Zealand, experts warn.

[... snip ...]

As far as what we can do right now, it’s clear the best line of defence is vaccination, Hendy said.

“Vaccination really helps. Every vaccine helps reduce the risk from Delta. And let's keep our fingers crossed we don't have an outbreak over the next little while.”
I think most of us suspected it would be bad if the virus got out into and took root in the community, but that is downright f**king scary.

It is also more reason, if any were needed, to shake up the MOH and DHBs: to ensure we have officials focussed on clinical requirements and delivery, in the case of the former, and; providing facilities and staffing in the places that need them and without unnecessary duplication, in respect of the latter.
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Ted.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

Fat Old Git wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:02 am
RuggaBugga wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:52 pm
Mr Mike wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm The treaty point has always been persuasive for me on the fact that Aotearoa wasn’t in universal or wide use in pre-colonial days, but I don’t see why it should need to have been.

That would be simply substituting one group’s name for another, even if the Maori version is manifestly more anchored in association with our lands than the translation of a name given by a visiting Dutchman in the 17th century.

What I like about Aotearoa is that it isn’t and won’t be a name imposed by others. It will be something that, although it has its origins in Maori lore will have been consciously adopted by a plurality of Kiwis of all ethnicities in a post-colonial context to better represent their identity. A toanga to be shared by all.

It really is a very silly argument. Let’s call it “here be dragons” because perhaps that’s what it was labelled as before some random map maker crossed that out.

Also, fully onboard with dropping North and South Islands.
:thumbup:

Also we wouldn't have to wait so long at the olympic opening ceremony.
That's certainly a selling point the marketing people could get behind. :thumbup:


But I think we might be missing a trick from Mr Mike's post. How cool would "Here be Dragons" be as a name?
Anei nga tarakona

or Anei kia taniwha

according to Google translate, so not sure how accurate it is. Perhaps we could work that into out motto, or make it into some sort of by line.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Ted. wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:53 am
Enzedder wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:38 pm Interesting piece - what would a delta variant breakout here in NZ look like.

My answer is, like a sewer. We will never be ready but it's going to come.
New Zealand has so far escaped an outbreak of the Covid-19 Delta variant. But as it takes off across the Tasman, can our luck hold? And are we ready if it does strike? Rachel Thomas investigates.

Our health system would be overwhelmed if the Covid-19 Delta variant takes hold in New Zealand, experts warn.

[... snip ...]

As far as what we can do right now, it’s clear the best line of defence is vaccination, Hendy said.

“Vaccination really helps. Every vaccine helps reduce the risk from Delta. And let's keep our fingers crossed we don't have an outbreak over the next little while.”
I think most of us suspected it would be bad if the virus got out into and took root in the community, but that is downright f**king scary.

It is also more reason, if any were needed, to shake up the MOH and DHBs: to ensure we have officials focussed on clinical requirements and delivery, in the case of the former, and; providing facilities and staffing in the places that need them and without unnecessary duplication, in respect of the latter.
Indeed. I mean what detter time to completely restructure the nations health system, while also creating a new race based one which will be trying to poach most of the other one than in the middle of a global pandemic killing 100s of thousands, where only fluke, isolation and blind luck have avoided us being fvcked.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Wignu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:03 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:29 am
Wignu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:00 am
Ted. wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:47 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:45 am
I think it was in quite widespread use (it's in a lot of old writing), but there is clear move away from transliteration of English words in Te Reo Maori these days.
Cheers. I should have looked up the meaning. So, it might have been in use, but could be seen as less valid than, say, Aotearoa.

Aotearoa comes off the tongue very nicely as well.
When it's pronounced properly!!
Yeah, we need Split Enz to re-release Six Months in a Leaky Boat with the correct pronunciation so that people stop saying it that way.
What's wrong with sex????
:lol:

Sux?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

RuggaBugga wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:58 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:43 am
guy smiley wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:29 pm Here's an article on the use of Aotearoa to collectively describe New Zealand, the way it has gained traction, especially among government departments and corporates, and the opposition to its use. There's also some background information in relation to Michael King's views and some history on the name.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... r-aotearoa
First take from that for me is the popular tendency to take one view and try to promote that as the one and only truth. While we see that tendency used a lot nowadays by conservatives in what is loosely described as 'the culture wars' I don't think it fair or wise to suggest that only one group do this. Here we see that Michael King's opinion has been held up to be the One Truth, or in PR speak, FACT.

The problem with that lazy slide into assumption of FACT is that history is more nuanced and truth tends to be more layered, requiring careful sifting and sorting that weeds out inaccuracies which in turn narrows down the likely reality.

Sensationalists don't like that sort of careful attention to detail.

I imagine that Rawiri Taonui's opinion might not carry as much weight on talkback radio or in a Judith Collins' press conference, for example... while David Seymour is probably busy with a wax doll and some matches.

Second takeaway for mine is best expressed by Denis O'Rourke, who makes what I think is a decent or perhaps, useful point...
“I do not approve of the name Aotearoa, but not on racial grounds,” he says by email. “I think that we should use the Māori names for the South and North Islands because they are authentic.
I imagine the likes of the aforementioned Judith Collins and those of her ilk would just love to exchange their resistance to using Aotearoa for Te Wai Pounamu, Rakiura and Te Ika a Maui... just picture the exploding heads, if you can.
Aotearoa has and is gaining acceptance for all of NZ, even if this wasn't used by all Maori in the past. So I have no issue with it as a name for the entire country. Culture isn't static. (I was also unaware that King's was held up as the One Truth/FACT).

Really, if we use the term Maori to describe, well Maori, despite the fact no one ever used the term Maori to Maori to describe the peoples of Aotearoa (or Te Ika a Maui, Te Waipounamu, Raikura and Rekohu if you prefer) - then using the umbrella term Aotearoa seems fine today. If only for the fact the alternative is too bloody long.

The reason I bring this up is I was listening to a podcast discussing the Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga "invasion" of the Chatham Islands. And the outside listener would take the following away from it - the "Maori" invaded the Chatham Islands and subjugated this other people the Moriori. Rather than one group of Polynesian people invaded and subjugated another group of Polynesian people, which had been happening all across NZ after the arrival of the whiteys and their muskets. Ngati Kahungunu were either subjugated or chased out of huge parts of Hawkes Bay when tribes from the north came down with the muskets, before gaining muskets after a few years and reconquering the lands they lost.
What's the podcast? I'd be interested in giving that a listen.
Our Fake History, it was an episode centred around a discussion of Jared Diamonds Guns, Germs and Steel.

It's a good podcast that looks at historical myths.

https://ourfakehistory.com/
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:30 am Our Fake History, it was an episode centred around a discussion of Jared Diamonds Guns, Germs and Steel.

It's a good podcast that looks at historical myths.

https://ourfakehistory.com/
I bought the book 'Guns, Germs and Steel' earlier this year, but I haven't started reading it yet other than dipping my toe into the water of certain chapters. Have you read the book?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Tehui wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:30 am Our Fake History, it was an episode centred around a discussion of Jared Diamonds Guns, Germs and Steel.

It's a good podcast that looks at historical myths.

https://ourfakehistory.com/
I bought the book 'Guns, Germs and Steel' earlier this year, but I haven't started reading it yet other than dipping my toe into the water of certain chapters. Have you read the book?
Yep, it's a great read (I've read all his books). I agree with some of the podcasts criticisms of it, but not all.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Is iy just me me or has Ardern noy bothered rocking up to it?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Pretty funny. Poor dude is trying to talk for about an hour now.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by RuggaBugga »

Nobody cares bro
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

RuggaBugga wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:00 am Nobody cares bro
Fair enough.

You don't care about Ardern currently live on National TV apologising for her Labour Prties racist Dawn Raid policy.

All good. Can see why it my make the image a bit bullshit
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

She just offered heaps of scholarships to Fijians.

Cos like they have Covid major.

It would be funny if she wasntserious in her head
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by RuggaBugga »

Dark wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:06 am
RuggaBugga wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:00 am Nobody cares bro
Fair enough.

You don't care about Ardern currently live on National TV apologising for her Labour Prties racist Dawn Raid policy.

All good. Can see why it my make the image a bit bullshit
No you misunderstand. nobody cares about your pathetic girly whinging.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

RuggaBugga wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:16 am
Dark wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:06 am
RuggaBugga wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:00 am Nobody cares bro
Fair enough.

You don't care about Ardern currently live on National TV apologising for her Labour Prties racist Dawn Raid policy.

All good. Can see why it my make the image a bit bullshit
No you misunderstand. nobody cares about your pathetic girly whinging.
That is the joy of a public forum. I get to watch the left ignore and try to divert from their open racism, to the point their leader is forced to apologise over iy Nationally
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Don't see me ever voting ACT, but you have to admit at least Seymour has some put your words where your mouth is cred'

Collins is a tad fvcked I think.
Poll shows David Seymour above Judith Collins and Labour with twice the support of Nationa

A new poll shows the Labour Party with twice the support of National – and ACT's David Seymour ahead of Judith Collins.

The poll is not public and is from Labour’s pollster UMR, although the poll itself was prepared for corporate clients, not Labour itself.

It was first reported by The New Zealand Herald, but the numbers have been confirmed by Stuff.

It showed Labour at 48 per cent in the party vote, with twice the support National had at 24 per cent. ACT was on 11 per cent while the Green Party was on 8 per cent.

But while ACT was still far behind National, the party’s leader, Seymour, had overtaken Collins in the preferred prime minister stakes.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was still riding well above her competitors there, with 55 per cent support.

Sitting prime ministers generally enjoy much higher support than other party leaders.

Second behind Ardern was Seymour on 12 per cent, above Collins on 10 per cent. This was her worst result from a UMR poll since taking over as leader, and the first time Seymour had overtaken her.

Seymour said the result encouraged ACT to “go harder”.

“People know the Government’s got a great sales department, but something’s wrong in production. This result just encourages ACT to go harder on honest conversations about our country’s future,” Seymour said.

UMR conducts very regular tracking polls for the Labour Party, but this poll was part of a monthly omnibus series intended for corporate clients.

Collins said the poll covered a tough period for National.

“This is Labour’s pollsters. They only leak their polls when they are getting negative comments, like about their ute tax, He Puapua and the more than 4000 kids living in motels,” Collins said.

“National has been through a tough few weeks. The polling period covered Jake Bezzant, Nick Smith’s retirement and Todd Muller’s retirement at the election. But we’ll keep on track and focused on the things that matter to New Zealand.”

The poll was conducted between June 24 and July 1.


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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

Ted. wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:29 pm Here's an article on the use of Aotearoa to collectively describe New Zealand, the way it has gained traction, especially among government departments and corporates, and the opposition to its use. There's also some background information in relation to Michael King's views and some history on the name.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... r-aotearoa
Further to this, here's a link to the podcast, plus a bunch of others.

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/the-lo ... -aotearoa/
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Dark wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:37 am Don't see me ever voting ACT, but you have to admit at least Seymour has some put your words where your mouth is cred'

Collins is a tad fvcked I think.
Poll shows David Seymour above Judith Collins and Labour with twice the support of Nationa

A new poll shows the Labour Party with twice the support of National – and ACT's David Seymour ahead of Judith Collins.

The poll is not public and is from Labour’s pollster UMR, although the poll itself was prepared for corporate clients, not Labour itself.

It was first reported by The New Zealand Herald, but the numbers have been confirmed by Stuff.

It showed Labour at 48 per cent in the party vote, with twice the support National had at 24 per cent. ACT was on 11 per cent while the Green Party was on 8 per cent.

But while ACT was still far behind National, the party’s leader, Seymour, had overtaken Collins in the preferred prime minister stakes.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was still riding well above her competitors there, with 55 per cent support.

Sitting prime ministers generally enjoy much higher support than other party leaders.

Second behind Ardern was Seymour on 12 per cent, above Collins on 10 per cent. This was her worst result from a UMR poll since taking over as leader, and the first time Seymour had overtaken her.

Seymour said the result encouraged ACT to “go harder”.

“People know the Government’s got a great sales department, but something’s wrong in production. This result just encourages ACT to go harder on honest conversations about our country’s future,” Seymour said.

UMR conducts very regular tracking polls for the Labour Party, but this poll was part of a monthly omnibus series intended for corporate clients.

Collins said the poll covered a tough period for National.

“This is Labour’s pollsters. They only leak their polls when they are getting negative comments, like about their ute tax, He Puapua and the more than 4000 kids living in motels,” Collins said.

“National has been through a tough few weeks. The polling period covered Jake Bezzant, Nick Smith’s retirement and Todd Muller’s retirement at the election. But we’ll keep on track and focused on the things that matter to New Zealand.”

The poll was conducted between June 24 and July 1.


I suspect this reflects how few credible alternatives there are for anyone who isn't that keen on voting for Labour or the Greens rather than ACT doing anything or particular note. Other than presenting as less of a basket case than National.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

Nurses planning to strike again. Apparently the last strike was only called off as the DHBs wouldn't present their offer until it was cancelled.

Also hearing nurses complain about the way their claim is being presented. Apparently a large amount of what they are asking for is a pay parity increase they were promised several years ago but which has yet to be delivered.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by brat »

Dark wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:37 am Don't see me ever voting ACT, but you have to admit at least Seymour has some put your words where your mouth is cred'

Collins is a tad fvcked I think.
Poll shows David Seymour above Judith Collins and Labour with twice the support of Nationa

A new poll shows the Labour Party with twice the support of National – and ACT's David Seymour ahead of Judith Collins.

The poll is not public and is from Labour’s pollster UMR, although the poll itself was prepared for corporate clients, not Labour itself.

It was first reported by The New Zealand Herald, but the numbers have been confirmed by Stuff.

It showed Labour at 48 per cent in the party vote, with twice the support National had at 24 per cent. ACT was on 11 per cent while the Green Party was on 8 per cent.

But while ACT was still far behind National, the party’s leader, Seymour, had overtaken Collins in the preferred prime minister stakes.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was still riding well above her competitors there, with 55 per cent support.

Sitting prime ministers generally enjoy much higher support than other party leaders.

Second behind Ardern was Seymour on 12 per cent, above Collins on 10 per cent. This was her worst result from a UMR poll since taking over as leader, and the first time Seymour had overtaken her.

Seymour said the result encouraged ACT to “go harder”.

“People know the Government’s got a great sales department, but something’s wrong in production. This result just encourages ACT to go harder on honest conversations about our country’s future,” Seymour said.

UMR conducts very regular tracking polls for the Labour Party, but this poll was part of a monthly omnibus series intended for corporate clients.

Collins said the poll covered a tough period for National.

“This is Labour’s pollsters. They only leak their polls when they are getting negative comments, like about their ute tax, He Puapua and the more than 4000 kids living in motels,” Collins said.

“National has been through a tough few weeks. The polling period covered Jake Bezzant, Nick Smith’s retirement and Todd Muller’s retirement at the election. But we’ll keep on track and focused on the things that matter to New Zealand.”

The poll was conducted between June 24 and July 1.


Another poll just released had labour on 43% and nation on 29% -probably more accurate than the one above

That said, yes Collins needs to go

I think if they had someone like Nikki Kaye leading right now, National would probably be in the early 30s

Everyone can see that this gives incompetent- unfortunately there’s not a great alternative atm
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

brat wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:02 am
Another poll just released had labour on 43% and nation on 29% -probably more accurate than the one above

That said, yes Collins needs to go

I think if they had someone like Nikki Kaye leading right now, National would probably be in the early 30s

Everyone can see that this gives incompetent- unfortunately there’s not a great alternative atm
I would still go with Mitchell
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

brat wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:02 amEveryone can see that this gives incompetent.
Covid-19 deaths/million:

UK - 1900
USA - 1889
Australia - 36
NZ, under a Labour government - 5

:nod:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Muttonbirds wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:55 am
brat wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:02 amEveryone can see that this gives incompetent.
Covid-19 deaths/million:

UK - 1900
USA - 1889
Australia - 36
NZ, under a Labour government - 5

:nod:

And second worst country in the world for vaccine roll out.

Any comment on that Mutton.

Think they are more worried about the billion dollar cycle bridge you support so much which no one else wants.
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