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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:37 am
by eugenius
It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant

I’ve got a startling new idea, how about spend it on social services and society ?

I realise that it might not excite as a few more bucks in your pocket DD , but I’m sure you’ll survive the trauma.

🙄

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:46 am
by Fat Old Git
Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:48 am
by eugenius
You can’t really buy services that don’t exist.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:21 pm
by Dark
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.

As I pointed out they can't

They have already called bracket changes tax cuts to the rich

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:57 pm
by Wilderbeast
Dark wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.

As I pointed out they can't

They have already called bracket changes tax cuts to the rich
That’s because they are. They are tax cuts for everyone.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:44 pm
by RuggaBugga
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.
An extra 10 bucks per week or functioning health and education sectors.

Tough choice.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:40 pm
by deadduck
RuggaBugga wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.
An extra 10 bucks per week or functioning health and education sectors.

Tough choice.
eugenius wrote:
It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant

I’ve got a startling new idea, how about spend it on social services and society ?

I realise that it might not excite as a few more bucks in your pocket DD , but I’m sure you’ll survive the trauma.

🙄
You guys do realise what a surplus means right?
The govt isn't allocating it to health, education or social services . Your arguments are total strawmen

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:45 pm
by Enzedder
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.
As we've been told a dozen times or more here, the working poor don't pay any tax anyway. Is that not correct now?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:56 pm
by Fat Old Git
Enzedder wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.
As we've been told a dozen times or more here, the working poor don't pay any tax anyway. Is that not correct now?
I think the argument has been that they don't "effectively" pay any tax as they get it back in other benefits such as working for families (We'll leave aside the debate about the inefficiency of taking money off people and making them apply for it back as that has been done to death in the past.)

Addressing bracket creep at the lower end won't address or solve all of our social issues by any stretch of the imagination. As I think Eug was alluding to it won't make more or better housing available, but it's another step in the right direction. It could mean school lunches, new shoes, raincoat etc for kids currently in need for example. As long as they apply the same principles to where assistance starts anyway and don't say "your rich now so get nothing."

But even if it ended up meaning so real increase in income (in which case it would be cost neutral to the government as they would be saving benefits) I suspect it would be better for people's self esteem.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:57 pm
by Fat Old Git
Wilderbeast wrote:
Dark wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.

As I pointed out they can't

They have already called bracket changes tax cuts to the rich
That’s because they are. They are tax cuts for everyone.
Except the truly rich who are unlikely to be paying income tax.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:34 pm
by Tehui
Dark wrote:
Tehui wrote:
deadduck wrote:It shouldn't remain unsaid that much of this surplus is a result of wage inflation and Labour are refusing to adjust the income tax brackets. In 2017 a person on the mean income pays about $1000 more tax each year than a person on the mean income in 2010. People most people are pushing well into the second-highest tax bracket which starts at a lowly $48,000. Many are also hitting the top bracket at just $70k and would by no means consider themselves rich.

It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant
They should increase the tax rate. Better yet, they should increase the tax rate from whatever amount you are earning. That sounds fair.
Raise the tax brackets?

They can't

That is what national electioneered on. Raising the low and middle tax brackets

Labour twisted it to tax cuts for the rich (as they get the same lower money untaxed)

Cynical, but it means they cant
The set of income tax rate cuts National made in 2010, when you factor in GST being raised from 12.5% to 15% at the same time, only benefited those earning $80k +.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:37 pm
by Flockwitt
eugenius wrote:
It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant

I’ve got a startling new idea, how about spend it on social services and society ?

I realise that it might not excite as a few more bucks in your pocket DD , but I’m sure you’ll survive the trauma.

🙄
I think there is a middle ground here. DD does have a point that the tax brackets could move up. Conversely, yep, let's see what needs fixing, and more importantly how well the fixes work, before happily declaring the government's so rich it doesn't need as much income. It won't hurt that the tax brackets stay in place for a couple more years and the government looks to make ground in areas that they felt were neglected under National... after all that's what they are in for.

Curiously though there was a key fund manager thinking Labour might run a deficit. Not sure how this working in terms of expectations of the NZ$ which has been steadily dropping again.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:54 pm
by Wilderbeast
deadduck wrote:
RuggaBugga wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Perhaps if they addressed bracket creep, at least at the lower levels, there wouldn't be quite as much need for social services and the working poor might be a bit better off.
An extra 10 bucks per week or functioning health and education sectors.

Tough choice.
eugenius wrote:
It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant

I’ve got a startling new idea, how about spend it on social services and society ?

I realise that it might not excite as a few more bucks in your pocket DD , but I’m sure you’ll survive the trauma.

🙄
You guys do realise what a surplus means right?
The govt isn't allocating it to health, education or social services . Your arguments are total strawmen
The surplus is not allocated, but more funding is going to social services as the split is different.

Nationals plan was to provide tax cuts and pay down debt to a specific target through surpluses higher surpluses.

Labour scrapped the tax cuts, delayed the debt target and opted to spend more money on social services. When labour says 3.1b to health, what do you think that means exactly? The budget includes information on funding and, for memory, it’s basically a third from cancelled tax cuts, a third from delayed debt target, and a third from revenue forecasts increasing.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:29 pm
by Dark
Flockwitt wrote:
eugenius wrote:
It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant

I’ve got a startling new idea, how about spend it on social services and society ?

I realise that it might not excite as a few more bucks in your pocket DD , but I’m sure you’ll survive the trauma.

🙄
I think there is a middle ground here. DD does have a point that the tax brackets could move up. Conversely, yep, let's see what needs fixing, and more importantly how well the fixes work, before happily declaring the government's so rich it doesn't need as much income. It won't hurt that the tax brackets stay in place for a couple more years and the government looks to make ground in areas that they felt were neglected under National... after all that's what they are in for.

Curiously though there was a key fund manager thinking Labour might run a deficit. Not sure how this working in terms of expectations of the NZ$ which has been steadily dropping again.
Lol

Um no

They are in because Winston decided he wanted them in

The same as if he had picked National

Trying to make out it was some sort of call from the people for a tide of change is pushing it.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:41 pm
by Auckman
If it was up to me, I would've put an extra $5 billion into Education and $5 billion into Health and an extra $3 billion into Housing. Most of the problems solved there.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:54 pm
by Thai guy
Absolutely savage takedown of Nathan Guy here.
Back in 2017 Guy dithered when the disease was found in a farm owned by rich-listers. I suspect it was all kept secret and quick and decisive action held up while compensation was being negotiated. It is interesting to see how compensation seems to be the only issue over the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak that has taxed the mind of Guy last year when he was minister, and now in Opposition.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/ ... olios.html

As always, Guy and his mates in the National party look out, and cover up, for rich listers. Everyone else pays.

Just how much damage did the John Key government do? I think we are only just beginning to find out…

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:13 pm
by Dark
Auckman wrote:If it was up to me, I would've put an extra $5 billion into Education and $5 billion into Health and an extra $3 billion into Housing. Most of the problems solved there.
I think the problem with the housing is always going to be the red tape, Which Robertson is finally realising now

You can throw billions at it, but you are still looking at years for a big build and millions in costs just getting the sign off through to start.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:45 pm
by eugenius
Thai guy wrote:Absolutely savage takedown of Nathan Guy here.
Back in 2017 Guy dithered when the disease was found in a farm owned by rich-listers. I suspect it was all kept secret and quick and decisive action held up while compensation was being negotiated. It is interesting to see how compensation seems to be the only issue over the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak that has taxed the mind of Guy last year when he was minister, and now in Opposition.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/ ... olios.html

As always, Guy and his mates in the National party look out, and cover up, for rich listers. Everyone else pays.

Just how much damage did the John Key government do? I think we are only just beginning to find out…

Guy is one of the dumbest and most compliant stooges in parliament.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:35 am
by Dark
eugenius wrote:
Thai guy wrote:Absolutely savage takedown of Nathan Guy here.
Back in 2017 Guy dithered when the disease was found in a farm owned by rich-listers. I suspect it was all kept secret and quick and decisive action held up while compensation was being negotiated. It is interesting to see how compensation seems to be the only issue over the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak that has taxed the mind of Guy last year when he was minister, and now in Opposition.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/ ... olios.html

As always, Guy and his mates in the National party look out, and cover up, for rich listers. Everyone else pays.

Just how much damage did the John Key government do? I think we are only just beginning to find out…

Guy is one of the dumbest and most compliant stooges in parliament.
Interesting quote that

Either Thai guy is someone called "Muttonbird" on the Standard or he likes to steal other peoples comments

https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18 ... /#comments

Look at comment 2.2

Or some bloke called Muttonbird likes to steal Thai guys posts

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:38 am
by Wilderbeast
Better late than never Dark :lol:

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:59 am
by Auckman
The penny has finally dropped for Dark :lol:

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:26 am
by JB1981
Einhorn is Finkle :lol:

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:23 am
by booji boy
Where's Muttonbird's sparring partner harvey wilson when you need him?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:33 am
by TheDocForgotHisLogon
Or he's an AI bot spraying predictable shite on dozens of sites.

Anyway, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Grant and Jacinda for a completely down-the-line budget. Surpluses locked in, continuation of the last 18 years or centrist policy locked in. Everything else is in the margins. If they turn out also to be competent then NZ will be onto some sort of world record for high quality stable centrist government.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:05 am
by Dark
TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:Or he's an AI bot spraying predictable shite on dozens of sites.

Anyway, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Grant and Jacinda for a completely down-the-line budget. Surpluses locked in, continuation of the last 18 years or centrist policy locked in. Everything else is in the margins. If they turn out also to be competent then NZ will be onto some sort of world record for high quality stable centrist government.
Indeed

I've never seen so many "CRISES!!!" Disappear so fast

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:38 am
by deadduck
I see Phil Twyford is out making friends and influencing people again... erm

Image
Twyford slams 'kids at Treasury'


He must be the most unlikeable of the current Cabinet surely, and Cabinet has Shane Jones in it!

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:40 am
by Wilderbeast
deadduck wrote:I see Phil Twyford is out making friends and influencing people again... erm

Image
Twyford slams 'kids at Treasury'


He must be the most unlikeable of the current Cabinet surely, and Cabinet has Shane Jones in it!
I hate that shit, attacking your departments when their assessment doesn’t suit your narrative. Key did it too for memory, or was it Joyce?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:15 am
by Dark
deadduck wrote:I see Phil Twyford is out making friends and influencing people again... erm

Image
Twyford slams 'kids at Treasury'


He must be the most unlikeable of the current Cabinet surely, and Cabinet has Shane Jones in it!

He has always had that leering, talking two inches away from womens face thing going on.

In some people it makes them look tough if it's a bloke. He just looks like an arsehole

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:23 am
by maxbox
booji boy wrote:Where's Muttonbird's sparring partner harvey wilson when you need him?
A double count out

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:33 am
by Fat Old Git
Wilderbeast wrote:
deadduck wrote:I see Phil Twyford is out making friends and influencing people again... erm

Image
Twyford slams 'kids at Treasury'


He must be the most unlikeable of the current Cabinet surely, and Cabinet has Shane Jones in it!
I hate that shit, attacking your departments when their assessment doesn’t suit your narrative. Key did it too for memory, or was it Joyce?
Joyce I think (iirc) although perhaps on Key's instructions.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:01 am
by Brabus
Dark wrote:
deadduck wrote:I see Phil Twyford is out making friends and influencing people again... erm

Image
Twyford slams 'kids at Treasury'


He must be the most unlikeable of the current Cabinet surely, and Cabinet has Shane Jones in it!

He has always had that leering, talking two inches away from womens face thing going on.

In some people it makes them look tough if it's a bloke. He just looks like an arsehole
Politicians come and go, the civil service is eternal.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:28 am
by Wilderbeast
This is the one I’m thinking of. It’s Key. Basically just proves they’re all as bad as each other.

https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/key-treas ... nse-197203

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:37 am
by Thai guy
Wilderbeast wrote:This is the one I’m thinking of. It’s Key. Basically just proves they’re all as bad as each other.

https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/key-treas ... nse-197203
:lol: Their golden boy did exactly the same thing 18 months ago. Didn't hear them complain about it then!

Here he is again blaming a MFAT official personally in the media for the Malaysian diplomat bungle.
‘‘If that person doesn’t have clarity about that position then they need to think very strongly about whether they’re in the right job,’’ Key said.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politic ... mat-bungle

In the words of deadduck and Dark, "unlikable" and "an arsehole".

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:16 am
by MungoMan
Auckman wrote:The penny has finally dropped for Dark :lol:
Yep. Sharp as a bowling ball, that fulla.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:27 am
by TheDocForgotHisLogon
Fat Old Git wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
deadduck wrote:I see Phil Twyford is out making friends and influencing people again... erm

Image
Twyford slams 'kids at Treasury'


He must be the most unlikeable of the current Cabinet surely, and Cabinet has Shane Jones in it!
I hate that shit, attacking your departments when their assessment doesn’t suit your narrative. Key did it too for memory, or was it Joyce?
Joyce I think (iirc) although perhaps on Key's instructions.
:lol:

To be fair Treasury is full of very clever kids. And wasn't it Cullen that described some advice of theirs as an 'intellectual fart'?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:32 am
by deadduck
A 3rd term Prime Minister can get away with that kind of nonsense. Twyford has been in the job 6 months . Everything I've seen of him oozes of smarminess

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:36 am
by RuggaBugga
Dark wrote:
Flockwitt wrote:
eugenius wrote:
It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant

I’ve got a startling new idea, how about spend it on social services and society ?

I realise that it might not excite as a few more bucks in your pocket DD , but I’m sure you’ll survive the trauma.

🙄
I think there is a middle ground here. DD does have a point that the tax brackets could move up. Conversely, yep, let's see what needs fixing, and more importantly how well the fixes work, before happily declaring the government's so rich it doesn't need as much income. It won't hurt that the tax brackets stay in place for a couple more years and the government looks to make ground in areas that they felt were neglected under National... after all that's what they are in for.

Curiously though there was a key fund manager thinking Labour might run a deficit. Not sure how this working in terms of expectations of the NZ$ which has been steadily dropping again.
Lol

Um no

They are in because Winston decided he wanted them in

The same as if he had picked National

Trying to make out it was some sort of call from the people for a tide of change is pushing it.
God these uber-partisan plum are boring :roll:

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:40 am
by Thai guy
Key set a new standard for smarminess. One unlikely to be challenged for some time.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:42 am
by Thai guy
Dark wrote:
Flockwitt wrote:
eugenius wrote:
It's all well and good for Robertson to crow about surpluses but that's basically admitting that the tax take is too high. Give it back Grant

I’ve got a startling new idea, how about spend it on social services and society ?

I realise that it might not excite as a few more bucks in your pocket DD , but I’m sure you’ll survive the trauma.

🙄
I think there is a middle ground here. DD does have a point that the tax brackets could move up. Conversely, yep, let's see what needs fixing, and more importantly how well the fixes work, before happily declaring the government's so rich it doesn't need as much income. It won't hurt that the tax brackets stay in place for a couple more years and the government looks to make ground in areas that they felt were neglected under National... after all that's what they are in for.

Curiously though there was a key fund manager thinking Labour might run a deficit. Not sure how this working in terms of expectations of the NZ$ which has been steadily dropping again.
Lol

Um no

They are in because Winston decided he wanted them in

The same as if he had picked National

Trying to make out it was some sort of call from the people for a tide of change is pushing it.
Some are still not quite over the election result. Remember, everyone who voted NZF voted for change. It was central to their campaign.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:43 am
by deadduck
:lol: If you say so. He was also one of if not our most popular prime ministers ever. Twyford could learn a lot from him