NZ Politics Thread

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Enzedder
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

Santa wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:58 am
Eugenius wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:32 am People like to forget it’s place in New Zealand law .

Which Is?
Most of these legislative references are not to the Treaty text but rather to the "principles" of the Treaty. This is because the two texts of the Treaty have led to different understandings, and because of the need to apply the Treaty to present-day circumstances and issues.

Treaty principles interpret the Treaty as a whole, its intention and its spirit. In the 1994 Broadcasting Assets case (p. 513), Lord Woolf described the principles as "the underlying mutual obligations and responsibilities the Treaty places on the parties. They reflect the intention of the
Treaty as a whole and include, but are not confined to, the express terms of the Treaty."
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:54 am
Santa wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:58 am
Eugenius wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:32 am People like to forget it’s place in New Zealand law .

Which Is?
Most of these legislative references are not to the Treaty text but rather to the "principles" of the Treaty. This is because the two texts of the Treaty have led to different understandings, and because of the need to apply the Treaty to present-day circumstances and issues.

Treaty principles interpret the Treaty as a whole, its intention and its spirit. In the 1994 Broadcasting Assets case (p. 513), Lord Woolf described the principles as "the underlying mutual obligations and responsibilities the Treaty places on the parties. They reflect the intention of the
Treaty as a whole and include, but are not confined to, the express terms of the Treaty."
I know about the Principles. They are the makey uppy things that nobody actually ever signed up to. Eugenius was talking about the Treaty's status in law. Which is not very much.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by brat »

Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:27 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:11 pm
Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:30 pm I’m certainly not lying but after talking to a other half that on occasion actually teaches medical students - the idea that anyone would get into medicine with a B- sounds complete and utter bullshit !
Yes I think that's the point.

It’s basically nonsense .

You wouldn’t have a hope of passing the finals if that was your entry . It’s a complete fabrication.
They can get in with a B average in Auckland..I know that for a fact

And medicine is a lot of work but it's not that intellectually challenging..a diligent B grade student could pass their finals..there seems to be a lot of myth about how hard it is

Having done both medicine and dentistry.. undergrad dentistry was more challenging..the real challenge was doing med concurrently with a masters
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Jerome Manning wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:54 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:02 pm There are a trillion reasons why someone may face disadvantage, why base it on ethnicity?
No disrespect bro, but do you know the history of this country?
None taken. I just don't understand why some disadvantages are prioritised over others. Do you know the history of physically disabled people being discriminated against?
As I mentioned earlier they're prioritised too. Would you rather they're not as well (as ethnicities), even taking into account their history of being discriminated against?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

brat wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:27 am
Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:27 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:11 pm
Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:30 pm I’m certainly not lying but after talking to a other half that on occasion actually teaches medical students - the idea that anyone would get into medicine with a B- sounds complete and utter bullshit !
Yes I think that's the point.

It’s basically nonsense .

You wouldn’t have a hope of passing the finals if that was your entry . It’s a complete fabrication.
They can get in with a B average in Auckland..I know that for a fact

And medicine is a lot of work but it's not that intellectually challenging..a diligent B grade student could pass their finals..there seems to be a lot of myth about how hard it is

Having done both medicine and dentistry.. undergrad dentistry was more challenging..the real challenge was doing med concurrently with a masters
No medicine is generally not intellectually challenging in the sense of reasoning, but it does require a very good working memory which is highly correlated with intelligence I believe.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

Jerome Manning wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:54 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:02 pm There are a trillion reasons why someone may face disadvantage, why base it on ethnicity?
No disrespect bro, but do you know the history of this country?
None taken. I just don't understand why some disadvantages are prioritised over others. Do you know the history of physically disabled people being discriminated against?
I've got some understanding, but I'm no expert. I worked in the disability sector for many years. I support the vision of them having increased choice and control to live the life they want to live.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

UncleFB wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:46 am
Eugenius wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:32 am People like to forget it’s place in New Zealand law .
TBH I sometimes think Sonny thinks NZ is under USA law from his comments.

On law, I don’t think Maori need any help accessing the law profession anymore. Seems to be lots of Maori lawyers these days, but that’s just my inpression.
I don't disagree with you. I wouldn't mind seeing more Māori succeed in other professional occupations TBH. My sister is an over-achiever in a science field and ended up working in an industry in which she's yet to meet another Māori female. The job can be a very lonely place for her.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

Sonny Blount wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:25 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:48 am Ethnicity gets used as an as it's a relatively cheap and easy way to select people who are more likely to have been disadvantaged. It's far form a perfect measure as I've already alluded to. And I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
Its a stupid way to measure disadvantage. No serious person would use it.
And yet the research shows that systemic bias towards ethnicity exists within NZ's justice system. I wish it didn't, but it does.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Eugenius »

Santa wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:08 am
brat wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:27 am
Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:27 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:11 pm
Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:30 pm I’m certainly not lying but after talking to a other half that on occasion actually teaches medical students - the idea that anyone would get into medicine with a B- sounds complete and utter bullshit !
Yes I think that's the point.

It’s basically nonsense .

You wouldn’t have a hope of passing the finals if that was your entry . It’s a complete fabrication.
They can get in with a B average in Auckland..I know that for a fact

And medicine is a lot of work but it's not that intellectually challenging..a diligent B grade student could pass their finals..there seems to be a lot of myth about how hard it is

Having done both medicine and dentistry.. undergrad dentistry was more challenging..the real challenge was doing med concurrently with a masters
No medicine is generally not intellectually challenging in the sense of reasoning, but it does require a very good working memory which is highly correlated with intelligence I believe.

I think where it gets hairy is post graduation when you specialise , certainly most psychiatrists fail their first attempt at the exam .
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

I see Ardern has turned to mega cynical electionering and shot down to Ch Ch for a photo op with the scarf on again.

I acually find it pretty distasteful.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Kahu »

Dark wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 am I see Ardern has turned to mega cynical electionering and shot down to Ch Ch for a photo op with the scarf on again.

I acually find it pretty distasteful.
Who do you think loves the limelight more? The pig or the horse?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Dark wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 am I see Ardern has turned to mega cynical electionering and shot down to Ch Ch for a photo op with the scarf on again.

I acually find it pretty distasteful.
Did she fly?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Kahu wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:01 am
Dark wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 am I see Ardern has turned to mega cynical electionering and shot down to Ch Ch for a photo op with the scarf on again.

I acually find it pretty distasteful.
Who do you think loves the limelight more? The pig or the horse?
The one that uses atrocity for her election campaign.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Kahu »

Another one with a case of Ardern Derangement Syndrome. It's sad when people are so distorted by love or hate they lose the ability to see things through a lense of objectivity. Whilst I'm sure the PM gets a little moist when the camera is directed at her, Collins positively gushes.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

:lol:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Eugenius »

Collins is playing to her base in an increasingly Trumpian fashion .

‘Why does she ( Ardern ) hate farmers so much ?’

Really ?

This ain’t going to win any new votes mate , have you given up or simply enjoying the mud ?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Sonny Blount »

Tehui wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:11 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:25 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:48 am Ethnicity gets used as an as it's a relatively cheap and easy way to select people who are more likely to have been disadvantaged. It's far form a perfect measure as I've already alluded to. And I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
Its a stupid way to measure disadvantage. No serious person would use it.
And yet the research shows that systemic bias towards ethnicity exists within NZ's justice system. I wish it didn't, but it does.
That doesn't mean affirmative action is the best response to that.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Sonny Blount »

UncleFB wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:48 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:54 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:02 pm There are a trillion reasons why someone may face disadvantage, why base it on ethnicity?
No disrespect bro, but do you know the history of this country?
None taken. I just don't understand why some disadvantages are prioritised over others. Do you know the history of physically disabled people being discriminated against?
As I mentioned earlier they're prioritised too. Would you rather they're not as well (as ethnicities), even taking into account their history of being discriminated against?

Ethnicity is such an awfully broad brush to paint people with. You have to be a racist to think it is going to align with disadvantage or ability for all people.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Eugenius »

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.rnz. ... 99ba0123d7


This is far more lively and dare I say even far more relevant to the election choices than they personality contest of the leaders debate .

Much more like it !
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

Judy Wong Tung's new strategy is to go all weepy in solidarity with the farmers with their brand new John Deers.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Fat Old Git »

Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:06 pm
UncleFB wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:48 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:54 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:02 pm There are a trillion reasons why someone may face disadvantage, why base it on ethnicity?
No disrespect bro, but do you know the history of this country?
None taken. I just don't understand why some disadvantages are prioritised over others. Do you know the history of physically disabled people being discriminated against?
As I mentioned earlier they're prioritized too. Would you rather they're not as well (as ethnicities), even taking into account their history of being discriminated against?

Ethnicity is such an awfully broad brush to paint people with. You have to be a racist to think it is going to align with disadvantage or ability for all people.
I don't think anyone is saying it will align disadvantage or ability for all people.

Most measures are broad brush to paint people with when taken in isolation. Exam scores as a measure of potential or ability for example.

To truly measure ability and potential to find the most deserving candidates, and make your decisions based entirely on that would be very resource intensive. Which is why programs in NZ and many other parts of the world take the easier option when trying to address disadvantage. They know it's far from perfect, but you are still likely to achieve many of the goals. And the alternative is usually to do nothing and just further entrench the status quo.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by farmerdave »

Class. JD are shit.
Certainly crocodile tears, will never get my vote.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Sonny Blount »

Fat Old Git wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:40 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:06 pm
UncleFB wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:48 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:54 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:49 am

No disrespect bro, but do you know the history of this country?
None taken. I just don't understand why some disadvantages are prioritised over others. Do you know the history of physically disabled people being discriminated against?
As I mentioned earlier they're prioritized too. Would you rather they're not as well (as ethnicities), even taking into account their history of being discriminated against?

Ethnicity is such an awfully broad brush to paint people with. You have to be a racist to think it is going to align with disadvantage or ability for all people.
I don't think anyone is saying it will align disadvantage or ability for all people.

Most measures are broad brush to paint people with when taken in isolation. Exam scores as a measure of potential or ability for example.

To truly measure ability and potential to find the most deserving candidates, and make your decisions based entirely on that would be very resource intensive. Which is why programs in NZ and many other parts of the world take the easier option when trying to address disadvantage. They know it's far from perfect, but you are still likely to achieve many of the goals. And the alternative is usually to do nothing and just further entrench the status quo.

The best way to predict career performance is aptitude/IQ. Empirical evidence supports this. Uni grades are substitute IQ scores with a good dose of conscientiousness or grit mixed in. Hence some professions use it as a filter because it as good as you are likely to get in the real world.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Brabus »

Muttonbirds wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:25 am Judy Wong Tung's new strategy is to go all weepy in solidarity with the farmers with their brand new John Deers.
Misoginist
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

Brabus wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:34 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:25 am Judy Wong Tung's new strategy is to go all weepy in solidarity with the farmers with their brand new John Deers.
Misoginist
I think the weeping thing was related to the mental health issues that farmers face and the suicide rate amongst the farming community. Collins apparently knew a farmer who took his own life.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Brabus wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:34 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:25 am Judy Wong Tung's new strategy is to go all weepy in solidarity with the farmers with their brand new John Deers.
Misoginist
I always find it funny how hypocritical the left are.

"MENTAL HEALTH IS AN ISSUE! WE ALONE CAN SEE THIS!"

"Lets all laugh the other side's politician shedding a tear over farmers and suicide and call her names!"
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

Collins was only too happy to use mental health as an excuse for Andrew Falloon's sexting of young women. Forgive me if I don't accept her using it for political attack on this occasion.

Just heard her political campaign ad on the car radio after being sent out for black sesame seeds. She sounded drunk.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

Even Sir John won't go near Judith's National Party.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics ... rdern.html

Interesting the way the Nats think. It's all about Collins' 'one chance' to be PM, and the damage to John Key's brand. Personal ambition ranks highly in the National Party rather than, I don't know, service to community.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

What an utter f**king shambles this is

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/30011667 ... be--report
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Santa wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:09 pm What an utter f**king shambles this is

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/30011667 ... be--report
The story here is:
1. A couple of Maori academics caught being a bit dodge with university cash.
2. They get called on it.
3. They play the race card.

Thousands of dollars of investigation later and no real evidence of actual racism, just some bollocks about structural racism because, get this, universities are western inventions. Wow. Yes they are. Want to have a university? It's going to be based on a western model.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

I agree that it’s a pretty damning report from two authors with a fair bit of clout. It’s hard to not pay equally in the tertiary sector anyway because each tier of academia has set specified rates. To prove bias, you’d have to prove unequal outcomes in promotion processes. Promotions are managed by Large committees that are representative of the academic body as a whole, so again, hard to allege bias.

So, really it comes down to potential bias at the appointment stage... there aren’t enough Māori or Pasifika applicants because... there aren’t enough of those groups completing PhDs... as (arguably) education outcomes aren’t equal. I’d argue if we can’t sort out primary and secondary education, then these issues can’t be solved. Tertiary education will always be reflective of the output from the school system.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ted. »

Sonny Blount wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:42 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:40 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:06 pm
UncleFB wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:48 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:54 am

None taken. I just don't understand why some disadvantages are prioritised over others. Do you know the history of physically disabled people being discriminated against?
As I mentioned earlier they're prioritized too. Would you rather they're not as well (as ethnicities), even taking into account their history of being discriminated against?

Ethnicity is such an awfully broad brush to paint people with. You have to be a racist to think it is going to align with disadvantage or ability for all people.
I don't think anyone is saying it will align disadvantage or ability for all people.

Most measures are broad brush to paint people with when taken in isolation. Exam scores as a measure of potential or ability for example.

To truly measure ability and potential to find the most deserving candidates, and make your decisions based entirely on that would be very resource intensive. Which is why programs in NZ and many other parts of the world take the easier option when trying to address disadvantage. They know it's far from perfect, but you are still likely to achieve many of the goals. And the alternative is usually to do nothing and just further entrench the status quo.

The best way to predict career performance is aptitude/IQ. Empirical evidence supports this. Uni grades are substitute IQ scores with a good dose of conscientiousness or grit mixed in. Hence some professions use it as a filter because it as good as you are likely to get in the real world.
It's such an awfully broad brush to paint people with, though.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

Santa wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:18 pm
Santa wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:09 pm What an utter f**king shambles this is

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/30011667 ... be--report
The story here is:
1. A couple of Maori academics caught being a bit dodge with university cash.
2. They get called on it.
3. They play the race card.

Thousands of dollars of investigation later and no real evidence of actual racism, just some bollocks about structural racism because, get this, universities are western inventions. Wow. Yes they are. Want to have a university? It's going to be based on a western model.
Agree, universities are a westernised institution. Much like NZ's imported political system.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Auckman »

I've lost count of how many holes are in the National party fiscal plan but by Friday, it was reportedly up to $10 billion.

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/0 ... -explained
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Eugenius »

Pretty embarrassing stuff .

It’s a complete myth that National are the better economic managers . But this is amateur hour .
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Santa wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:18 pm
Santa wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:09 pm What an utter f**king shambles this is

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/30011667 ... be--report
The story here is:
1. A couple of Maori academics caught being a bit dodge with university cash.
2. They get called on it.
3. They play the race card.

Thousands of dollars of investigation later and no real evidence of actual racism, just some bollocks about structural racism because, get this, universities are western inventions. Wow. Yes they are. Want to have a university? It's going to be based on a western model.
If any Uni should be worried about pissing off Maori it should be Waikato, Tainui are their landlords.

Although, seems like everyone involved (aside from the misappropriating funds academics who seem to have disappeared from the narrative as the article progressed) was happy with the outcome of the report.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Eugenius wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:50 am Pretty embarrassing stuff .

It’s a complete myth that National are the better economic managers . But this is amateur hour .
TBF it is basically a load of bollocks either way

Without going too far back

Labour handled finance ok for 9 years, then the Nats for 9.

The current govt are taking the piss a bit with wasting so much money on stuff that was pipe dreams (Kiwibuild, Provincial fund etc), but we are still better off than most countries given the Covid thing
Last edited by Dark on Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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UncleFB
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:06 pm
UncleFB wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:48 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:54 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:49 am
Jerome Manning wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:02 pm There are a trillion reasons why someone may face disadvantage, why base it on ethnicity?
No disrespect bro, but do you know the history of this country?
None taken. I just don't understand why some disadvantages are prioritised over others. Do you know the history of physically disabled people being discriminated against?
As I mentioned earlier they're prioritised too. Would you rather they're not as well (as ethnicities), even taking into account their history of being discriminated against?

Ethnicity is such an awfully broad brush to paint people with. You have to be a racist to think it is going to align with disadvantage or ability for all people.
My god, you're full of tutae at times. No one says it aligns with all people at all, but you can't overlook your own political bias if you pretend it can't at times be used as an indicator of disadvantage.

Still waiting on the Sonny approved measures of disadvantage.
brat wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:27 am
Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:27 pm
Santa wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:11 pm
Eugenius wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:30 pm I’m certainly not lying but after talking to a other half that on occasion actually teaches medical students - the idea that anyone would get into medicine with a B- sounds complete and utter bullshit !
Yes I think that's the point.

It’s basically nonsense .

You wouldn’t have a hope of passing the finals if that was your entry . It’s a complete fabrication.
They can get in with a B average in Auckland..I know that for a fact

And medicine is a lot of work but it's not that intellectually challenging..a diligent B grade student could pass their finals..there seems to be a lot of myth about how hard it is

Having done both medicine and dentistry.. undergrad dentistry was more challenging..the real challenge was doing med concurrently with a masters
Yeah, my Dr friends (who all studied together at Otago and are a mixture of white, Maori and Samoan) basically said that once you're in medicine that they move heaven and earth to pass you due to the investment involved.
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Tehui
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
We only have two decent medical unis.

Otago and Auckland

They only have so much resources for number of students. Lecturers etc

Hence the limits on numbers
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