NZ Politics Thread

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UncleFB
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
Haven't you just ruled out any responses? :D
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Also it is probably going to get worse.

Without side tracking the argument as it is what it is, the unis have all over the past couple of decades relied on more and more foreign students to cover their costs, because multiple govts haven't funded them enough.

With Covid and the govt refusing to let them in and quarantine, while simultaneously demanding unis meet a 3% profit every year, the unis are pretty much screwed and will likely be forced to lay off shit loads of staff, and this means less medical spaces
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Example

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/educat ... st-in-2021
Staff at Wellington's largest university are being prepped for job losses as it tries to combat a multi-million dollar deficit, but the union has vowed to fight for every job.

Staff at Victoria University received an email from the Chancellor Neil Paviour-Smith on Wednesday evening, which Stuff has seen, warning that if “addition measures” were not taken, the university was expecting a $33.5 million loss in 2021. That was in addition to a $19 million forecasted deficit for 2020.

“We are therefore facing the difficult reality that the present circumstances will not be temporary and that this will result in the need for a further reduction in costs including the size of the university’s workforce.”

The email said the university council had asked Vice-Chancellor Grant Guilford to start work considering options to cut costs, with an aim to reduce the core university loss in 2021 down to $5 million.
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Tehui
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
Haven't you just ruled out any responses? :D
:P

There are at least two posters on here who I know are qualified to answer that question.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:19 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
Haven't you just ruled out any responses? :D
:P

There are at least two posters on here who I know are qualified to answer that question.
:thumbup: We have some Ministry of Ed/Health reps on here?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:25 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:19 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
Haven't you just ruled out any responses? :D
:P

There are at least two posters on here who I know are qualified to answer that question.
:thumbup: We have some Ministry of Ed/Health reps on here?
Not sure what use they would be talking about uni numbers
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:13 am Without side tracking the argument as it is what it is, the unis have all over the past couple of decades relied on more and more foreign students to cover their costs, because multiple govts haven't funded them enough.
This is deeply flawed logic. Even if governments increased funding for domestic students, universities in NZ would still seek out foreign students because they are a lucrative revenue stream.
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UncleFB
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:28 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:25 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:19 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
Haven't you just ruled out any responses? :D
:P

There are at least two posters on here who I know are qualified to answer that question.
:thumbup: We have some Ministry of Ed/Health reps on here?
Not sure what use they would be talking about uni numbers
I just assumed the Ministry of Ed would allocate the funding that goes towards medical school places (and the Health would have an input as they're the ones footing the bill once the students graduate).
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:33 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:13 am Without side tracking the argument as it is what it is, the unis have all over the past couple of decades relied on more and more foreign students to cover their costs, because multiple govts haven't funded them enough.
This is deeply flawed logic. Even if governments increased funding for domestic students, universities in NZ would still seek out foreign students because they are a lucrative revenue stream.
Plus, NZ is doing it small potatoes compared with over here in Oz.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ali's Choice »

UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:34 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:33 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:13 am Without side tracking the argument as it is what it is, the unis have all over the past couple of decades relied on more and more foreign students to cover their costs, because multiple govts haven't funded them enough.
This is deeply flawed logic. Even if governments increased funding for domestic students, universities in NZ would still seek out foreign students because they are a lucrative revenue stream.
Plus, NZ is doing it small potatoes compared with over here in Oz.
Uni's here are in real trouble.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:37 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:34 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:33 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:13 am Without side tracking the argument as it is what it is, the unis have all over the past couple of decades relied on more and more foreign students to cover their costs, because multiple govts haven't funded them enough.
This is deeply flawed logic. Even if governments increased funding for domestic students, universities in NZ would still seek out foreign students because they are a lucrative revenue stream.
Plus, NZ is doing it small potatoes compared with over here in Oz.
Uni's here are in real trouble.
It's weird, the big unis are in trouble but a lot of the private higher ed providers (industry I work in) are going to do fine. Not helped by the Liberals declaring war on half the courses at unis for ideological reasons.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:33 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:28 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:25 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:19 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Haven't you just ruled out any responses? :D
:P

There are at least two posters on here who I know are qualified to answer that question.
:thumbup: We have some Ministry of Ed/Health reps on here?
Not sure what use they would be talking about uni numbers
I just assumed the Ministry of Ed would allocate the funding that goes towards medical school places (and the Health would have an input as they're the ones footing the bill once the students graduate).
Not that I know of.

Unis are quasi "independent" entities and fund how they chose to.

There might be govt funded scholarships, but they are just taking the assigned bums on seats.

As I said. There is only so many resources, unless the govt wants to take over unis and hire people, which wouldn't surprise me having meet Hipkins
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:44 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:33 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:28 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:25 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:19 am

:P

There are at least two posters on here who I know are qualified to answer that question.
:thumbup: We have some Ministry of Ed/Health reps on here?
Not sure what use they would be talking about uni numbers
I just assumed the Ministry of Ed would allocate the funding that goes towards medical school places (and the Health would have an input as they're the ones footing the bill once the students graduate).
Not that I know of.

Unis are quasi "independent" entities and fund how they chose to.

There might be govt funded scholarships, but they are just taking the assigned bums on seats.

As I said. There is only so many resources, unless the govt wants to take over unis and hire people, which wouldn't surprise me having meet Hipkins
Don't disagree with this, but I guess Auk and Otago have worked out the optimum numbers if the Ministry has no input.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
We only have two decent medical unis.

Otago and Auckland

They only have so much resources for number of students. Lecturers etc

Hence the limits on numbers
Nope. VUW and Waikato have both applied to open medical schools before and been turned down by National and then Labour governments. There is a prevailing government view that there are sufficient funded medical spaces in NZ (plus, Auckland and Otago don't want any more rivals). Otago has a mini-med School in Wellington. If there was a need for more spaces, then Auckland and Otago are more than capable of providing them.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:06 pmEthnicity is such an awfully broad brush to paint people with. You have to be a racist to think it is going to align with disadvantage or ability for all people.
Yeah, that's why this thread is full of posters saying it aligns with all people.

edit...Ah, been done I see.
Last edited by usermame on Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

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farmerdave wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:14 am Class. JD are shit.
Their models around 40-50 hp have the nicest gear boxes and brakes I've used. Same with PTO engagement. Mediocre steering and substandard hydro on the three point linkage. That last is the deal breaker.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:49 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
We only have two decent medical unis.

Otago and Auckland

They only have so much resources for number of students. Lecturers etc

Hence the limits on numbers
Nope. VUW and Waikato have both applied to open medical schools before and been turned down by National and then Labour governments. There is a prevailing government view that there are sufficient funded medical spaces in NZ (plus, Auckland and Otago don't want any more rivals). Otago has a mini-med School in Wellington. If there was a need for more spaces, then Auckland and Otago are more than capable of providing them.
What exactly are you disagreeing with, in my post?

As you basically just said my post
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Actually I am assuming it is this
If there was a need for more spaces, then Auckland and Otago are more than capable of providing them.
Which to be frank is utter shit, as most will be laying off people as they can't get any international students in to pay for it
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Tehui »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:49 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
We only have two decent medical unis.

Otago and Auckland

They only have so much resources for number of students. Lecturers etc

Hence the limits on numbers
Nope. VUW and Waikato have both applied to open medical schools before and been turned down by National and then Labour governments. There is a prevailing government view that there are sufficient funded medical spaces in NZ (plus, Auckland and Otago don't want any more rivals). Otago has a mini-med School in Wellington. If there was a need for more spaces, then Auckland and Otago are more than capable of providing them.
What's that view based on?
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

I'd also add Labour in it's infinite wisdom has not allowed Unis to qualify for the staff subsidy re pay, during Covid
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:40 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:49 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
We only have two decent medical unis.

Otago and Auckland

They only have so much resources for number of students. Lecturers etc

Hence the limits on numbers
Nope. VUW and Waikato have both applied to open medical schools before and been turned down by National and then Labour governments. There is a prevailing government view that there are sufficient funded medical spaces in NZ (plus, Auckland and Otago don't want any more rivals). Otago has a mini-med School in Wellington. If there was a need for more spaces, then Auckland and Otago are more than capable of providing them.
What exactly are you disagreeing with, in my post?

As you basically just said my post
It's nothing to do with the resources that Auckland and Otago have. Medicine as a discipline is one which will have a higher proportional impact on their reputation and has very strong financial outcomes for those universities. It isn't anything to do with their limits on resources and I very much doubt any cutbacks those universities face will impact on their medical schools. Auckland and Otago would improve their financial position if they could/would/should increase their medical school numbers (and also have a positive impact on reputation & rankings etc.)

My understanding is that proportionately, Otago will be least impacted by the fall in international numbers. Lincoln is proportionately most heavily impacted. In raw numbers, Auckland and AUT will be heavily impacted. That the impact in Waikato and VUW is of the range of $20-35m is significant to those institutions, but bugger all compared to the government bail-outs across NZ thus far. Really bizarre that universities haven't been given any funding through COVID. But, there is a sense that if the Government wanted an excuse to merge universities then letting them do poorly financially will ultimately be a good thing. Contrast this to the support for vocational learning/polytechs that has been provided and then factor in that this Government needs the polytechnics merger to be a 'success'.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Sonny Blount »

Ted. wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:32 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:42 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:40 am
Sonny Blount wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:06 pm
UncleFB wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:48 am
As I mentioned earlier they're prioritized too. Would you rather they're not as well (as ethnicities), even taking into account their history of being discriminated against?

Ethnicity is such an awfully broad brush to paint people with. You have to be a racist to think it is going to align with disadvantage or ability for all people.
I don't think anyone is saying it will align disadvantage or ability for all people.

Most measures are broad brush to paint people with when taken in isolation. Exam scores as a measure of potential or ability for example.

To truly measure ability and potential to find the most deserving candidates, and make your decisions based entirely on that would be very resource intensive. Which is why programs in NZ and many other parts of the world take the easier option when trying to address disadvantage. They know it's far from perfect, but you are still likely to achieve many of the goals. And the alternative is usually to do nothing and just further entrench the status quo.

The best way to predict career performance is aptitude/IQ. Empirical evidence supports this. Uni grades are substitute IQ scores with a good dose of conscientiousness or grit mixed in. Hence some professions use it as a filter because it as good as you are likely to get in the real world.
It's such an awfully broad brush to paint people with, though.

No it's not. It is the most specific measure available, the only thing that might compare would be experience and previous success in the field.

More importantly, it is a measure of the individual, rather than a group.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:01 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:40 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:49 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
We only have two decent medical unis.

Otago and Auckland

They only have so much resources for number of students. Lecturers etc

Hence the limits on numbers
Nope. VUW and Waikato have both applied to open medical schools before and been turned down by National and then Labour governments. There is a prevailing government view that there are sufficient funded medical spaces in NZ (plus, Auckland and Otago don't want any more rivals). Otago has a mini-med School in Wellington. If there was a need for more spaces, then Auckland and Otago are more than capable of providing them.
What exactly are you disagreeing with, in my post?

As you basically just said my post
It's nothing to do with the resources that Auckland and Otago have. Medicine as a discipline is one which will have a higher proportional impact on their reputation and has very strong financial outcomes for those universities. It isn't anything to do with their limits on resources and I very much doubt any cutbacks those universities face will impact on their medical schools. Auckland and Otago would improve their financial position if they could/would/should increase their medical school numbers (and also have a positive impact on reputation & rankings etc.)

My understanding is that proportionately, Otago will be least impacted by the fall in international numbers. Lincoln is proportionately most heavily impacted. In raw numbers, Auckland and AUT will be heavily impacted. That the impact in Waikato and VUW is of the range of $20-35m is significant to those institutions, but bugger all compared to the government bail-outs across NZ thus far. Really bizarre that universities haven't been given any funding through COVID. But, there is a sense that if the Government wanted an excuse to merge universities then letting them do poorly financially will ultimately be a good thing. Contrast this to the support for vocational learning/polytechs that has been provided and then factor in that this Government needs the polytechnics merger to be a 'success'.
:thumbup:

Cool

It is pretty obvious now Hipkins wants make a merged University of NZ model for his legacy and it will turn out shit.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:01 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:40 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:49 am
Dark wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:06 am
Tehui wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am I've got a dumb question to ask. If it's in the country's best interest to have more qualified medical doctors in the workforce, why is there a cap on numbers of students in training? Please don't answer this question if you're just speculating - even I can do that.
We only have two decent medical unis.

Otago and Auckland

They only have so much resources for number of students. Lecturers etc

Hence the limits on numbers
Nope. VUW and Waikato have both applied to open medical schools before and been turned down by National and then Labour governments. There is a prevailing government view that there are sufficient funded medical spaces in NZ (plus, Auckland and Otago don't want any more rivals). Otago has a mini-med School in Wellington. If there was a need for more spaces, then Auckland and Otago are more than capable of providing them.
What exactly are you disagreeing with, in my post?

As you basically just said my post
It's nothing to do with the resources that Auckland and Otago have. Medicine as a discipline is one which will have a higher proportional impact on their reputation and has very strong financial outcomes for those universities. It isn't anything to do with their limits on resources and I very much doubt any cutbacks those universities face will impact on their medical schools. Auckland and Otago would improve their financial position if they could/would/should increase their medical school numbers (and also have a positive impact on reputation & rankings etc.)

My understanding is that proportionately, Otago will be least impacted by the fall in international numbers. Lincoln is proportionately most heavily impacted. In raw numbers, Auckland and AUT will be heavily impacted. That the impact in Waikato and VUW is of the range of $20-35m is significant to those institutions, but bugger all compared to the government bail-outs across NZ thus far. Really bizarre that universities haven't been given any funding through COVID. But, there is a sense that if the Government wanted an excuse to merge universities then letting them do poorly financially will ultimately be a good thing. Contrast this to the support for vocational learning/polytechs that has been provided and then factor in that this Government needs the polytechnics merger to be a 'success'.
Aussie is the same, the Libs haven't given any Covid support for the Unis and they're basically making it more difficult for a bunch of the types of course which were the back bones of this western uni culture that Sen is talking up (e.g. a lot of Arts courses).
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
:lol: You're comedy gold. We need to respect the western culture, except not the parts I don't personally like because culture wars.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:34 pm
Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
:lol: You're comedy gold. We need to respect the western culture, except not the parts I don't personally like because culture wars.
That's a stupid take.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Looks like we know the first thing Labour are going to waste tax payer money on after the election win.

Bye bye full and final Treaty settlements. Hello all the old closed settlements opening up again.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/hea ... coalition/
Winston Peters speaks out on Ihumatao and broken Labour-NZ First coalition

Winston Peters says an Ihumatao deal could have broken the Labour-New Zealand First coalition.

In Orewa today, the New Zealand First leader emphasised the party's role in stopping a Government deal over the South Auckland land.

Peters says New Zealand First talked with Labour about not having "politically correct policies" that would undermine the Government.

He says that's exactly what a deal over Ihumatao would have done - and it began to show when the Prime Minister intervened with building starting on the land.

Peters told Heather du Plessis-Allan New Zealand First was never consulted about the intervention, which he says was a dramatic and terrible decision.

"Fletcher's had a right to be able to in a free contractual world, to get on with their project, and they were being stopped by the government."
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

Just thinking about the polls that cane out Sunday and Monday, does anyone see the Act/national bloc getting up?

Only thing I can think of is combined they beat labour and the greens don't make it.

Also weird the way they were reported, newshub =national under 30% Collins should resign - ignoring the increase in their %. While tvnz went with national and act up but still comfortably a left government.

Am pleased Winston and Shane Jones will get the arse
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:52 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:34 pm
Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
:lol: You're comedy gold. We need to respect the western culture, except not the parts I don't personally like because culture wars.
That's a stupid take.
:lol: Yeah, nah. It’s not.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Ghost-Of-Nepia »

Monkey Magic wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:11 am Just thinking about the polls that cane out Sunday and Monday, does anyone see the Act/national bloc getting up?

Only thing I can think of is combined they beat labour and the greens don't make it.

Also weird the way they were reported, newshub =national under 30% Collins should resign - ignoring the increase in their %. While tvnz went with national and act up but still comfortably a left government.

Am pleased Winston and Shane Jones will get the arse
Yes, but if the Greens shed votes, they'll probably go to Labour. And, if Labour got to 48.2% and the Greens fell short at 4.5%, for example, Labour would then pick up 48.2% of that 4.5% so would get another 2.1% added to their 48.2% to allow them to hobble over the line. I'm tired re-reading that.

The wasted vote distribution could have a big part to play.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Monkey Magic »

Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:32 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:11 am Just thinking about the polls that cane out Sunday and Monday, does anyone see the Act/national bloc getting up?

Only thing I can think of is combined they beat labour and the greens don't make it.

Also weird the way they were reported, newshub =national under 30% Collins should resign - ignoring the increase in their %. While tvnz went with national and act up but still comfortably a left government.

Am pleased Winston and Shane Jones will get the arse
Yes, but if the Greens shed votes, they'll probably go to Labour. And, if Labour got to 48.2% and the Greens fell short at 4.5%, for example, Labour would then pick up 48.2% of that 4.5% so would get another 2.1% added to their 48.2% to allow them to hobble over the line. I'm tired re-reading that.

The wasted vote distribution could have a big part to play.
Good point on the greens voters going labour. Can see nz first being completely deserted and all the parties including the ones like advance nz picking up votes from there but nowhere near 5%.

Found this interesting on the point with the near hysterical newshub reporting calling for Collins to resign.

https://www.researchassociation.org.nz/ ... al-polling

The lead up to any election is always characterised by unscripted moments, own goals and the occasional red card. The 2020 election season has been particularly dramatic, especially for the National Party. The ever-changing political landscape making it hard for the voting public and the pollsters to keep up with what’s coming next.

As shown below in the timeline, in mid to late May, the two public polls ColmarBrunton and Reid Research recorded very similar results for the Simon Bridge’s National Party (29% and 30.6%), which culminated in a leadership challenge and led to Todd Muller taking over as National Party leader. The next ColmarBrunton poll in 20th-24th June recorded a solid recovery for National, up 9 points to 38%. But the period from July 8th to July 21st was an especially turbulent period for the National Party, involving the resignation of a leader, the standing down of an ex Party President and a junior MP, the appointment of a new leader Collins, and then another series of stand downs, demotions and sackings.

Reid Research started polling on the 16th, just as the centre of this turbulence was passing over the National Party. Given these events it’s perhaps not surprising that National polled lower than the pre-Bridges leadership change (25% vs 30.6%). Note that this result was still higher than its worst election night result of 22% (2002).

The CBR poll started 9 days after the Reid Research poll, with relatively clean air. Even so, National’s result with Collins as leader at 32% is only 3 points higher than National’s vote when Bridges was toppled (29%). Collins has to consider as possibilities that she hasn’t made much difference from Bridges' low point and is doing worse than Muller (6 points) or acknowledge that she has brought the party forward from the abyss of the events between July 8th and July 21st. The latter supports the notion that the Reid Research poll was an accurate and fair measure of support for a party dealing with a perfect storm of rogue waves between July 8th and the 21st.
Released 31 July 2020
Santa
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

guy smiley wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:16 am
Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:52 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:34 pm
Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
:lol: You're comedy gold. We need to respect the western culture, except not the parts I don't personally like because culture wars.
That's a stupid take.
:lol: Yeah, nah. It’s not.
Shhh now. We're talking about higher education.
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Hareaway
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Hareaway »

The Pm said today she would be happy for Kelvin Davis to be deputy PM

Wait what ... Labour has some great MPs ...that idiot is not one of them .. hey PM don’t go there ...the man is a liability. Cut him free ,people don’t like him.
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booji boy
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by booji boy »

Hareaway wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:17 am The Pm said today she would be happy for Kelvin Davis to be deputy PM

Wait what ... Labour has some great MPs ...that idiot is not one of them .. hey PM don’t go there ...the man is a liability. Cut him free ,people don’t like him.
The guy is clueless. Tourism minister ffs! One of our biggest industries pre covid. You could not ask for a more inept, incompetent minister when the industry desperately needs strong leadership.
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
Can you point out any courses that support this claim? From my point of view, if students are coming away from university with views that you might see as 'woke' or equivalent, they're coming to university with these views. By far the majority of courses still contain content that is directly relevant to the topic of your degree. That, and employment outcomes from Arts degrees are pretty much identical to STEM ones. University teaches the methods of critical thinking in addition to the specific topic/major that you are officially studying.
Santa
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:48 pm
Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
Can you point out any courses that support this claim? From my point of view, if students are coming away from university with views that you might see as 'woke' or equivalent, they're coming to university with these views. By far the majority of courses still contain content that is directly relevant to the topic of your degree. That, and employment outcomes from Arts degrees are pretty much identical to STEM ones. University teaches the methods of critical thinking in addition to the specific topic/major that you are officially studying.
All of them. Scrap them and start again. No non-quantitative social science theory or modern critical theory from the last 40 years allowed (e.g. critical race theory). No courses that are based on topics rather than disciplines (e.g. gender studies). Compulsory philosophy and stats courses for all students. No courses allowed to be deliberately politically oriented (e.g. anthropology).

That's a start.

Here's a decent summary of what I'm talking about. Ignore the prediction if you like.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... ssion=true
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UncleFB
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by UncleFB »

Santa wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:16 pm
Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:48 pm
Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
Can you point out any courses that support this claim? From my point of view, if students are coming away from university with views that you might see as 'woke' or equivalent, they're coming to university with these views. By far the majority of courses still contain content that is directly relevant to the topic of your degree. That, and employment outcomes from Arts degrees are pretty much identical to STEM ones. University teaches the methods of critical thinking in addition to the specific topic/major that you are officially studying.
All of them. Scrap them and start again. No non-quantitative social science theory or modern critical theory from the last 40 years allowed (e.g. critical race theory). No courses that are based on topics rather than disciplines (e.g. gender studies). Compulsory philosophy and stats courses for all students. No courses allowed to be deliberately politically oriented (e.g. anthropology).

That's a start.
haha, yep, my original comment was correct, another free ideas man wanting to restrict the ideas that they don't agree with and making courses they like (no matter how useful or not to a persons career) compulsory.

Your beloved philosophy is in the firing line in Oz. The subsidy for a degree in music or film/tv dwarfs philosophy now. TBF, one of the very few good things is that the money for commerce is drying up too so we should have less drone business types who can't think for themselves.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

UncleFB wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:45 pm
Santa wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:16 pm
Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:48 pm
Santa wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:46 pm Those courses used to be and should be the backbone of a proper western education but they have become vectors of bullshit and rubbish thinking. They need to go. They are worse than worthless. They are poisonous.
Can you point out any courses that support this claim? From my point of view, if students are coming away from university with views that you might see as 'woke' or equivalent, they're coming to university with these views. By far the majority of courses still contain content that is directly relevant to the topic of your degree. That, and employment outcomes from Arts degrees are pretty much identical to STEM ones. University teaches the methods of critical thinking in addition to the specific topic/major that you are officially studying.
All of them. Scrap them and start again. No non-quantitative social science theory or modern critical theory from the last 40 years allowed (e.g. critical race theory). No courses that are based on topics rather than disciplines (e.g. gender studies). Compulsory philosophy and stats courses for all students. No courses allowed to be deliberately politically oriented (e.g. anthropology).

That's a start.
haha, yep, my original comment was correct, another free ideas man wanting to restrict the ideas that they don't agree with and making courses they like (no matter how useful or not to a persons career) compulsory.

Your beloved philosophy is in the firing line in Oz. The subsidy for a degree in music or film/tv dwarfs philosophy now. TBF, one of the very few good things is that the money for commerce is drying up too so we should have less drone business types who can't think for themselves.
What an unutterably stupid comment.
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guy smiley
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by guy smiley »

Go on. Utter it.
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