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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 am
by Kiwias
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
I am wondering if she could have a Green MP in the cabinet even without a coalition agreement.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:52 am
by Auckman
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
I am wondering if she could have a Green MP in the cabinet even without a coalition agreement.
Yes. Quite normal in the past 20 years. All the Green ministers in the last govt were "ministers outside of cabinet." They only get called into cabinet meetings when their portfolio is on the agenda and the cabinet manual only applies to them only insofar as their area of responsibility is concerned. This arrangement usually happens for confidence and supply relationships.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:04 am
by Auckman
Enzedder wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:45 am
I think Associate Health should go to Ayesha Verrall and Liz Craig.
Interesting - who gets Health then?
Someone with experience with a big ministry I guess. Craig has been a one-term MP and Verrall is brand new. Huge ask to throw them the big job.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:12 am
by Gordon Bennett
tubbyj wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:33 pm I still can't believe Gerry 'Take some personal responsibility for your weight' Brownlee lost my local seat in Ilam. Fantastic stuff from the people of Christchurch and a long time coming for him and Nick Smith.
I am absolutely delighted that these two have lost their seats. Also the Whanganui MP Herete Hipango. Hopefully Maureen Pugh sees that this would be a good juncture to retire otherwise it looks like 3 of these 4 will return on the list. I also wonder whether a different Nats leader would prefer quite a different list.

But, I'm also delighted with some of the more positive scenes from the election last night - for example, a number of defeated National MPs went and congratulated the winning Labour MP in person and had some very polite and positive things to say. Even Gerry Brownlee admitted to having made a few missteps that cost him - including the obvious blunders.

As a few people have alluded to, there are a number of National MPs on the left of the party who aren't so far apart from those on the right of Labour. Whilst the two main parties fight over the central ground, there doesn't need to be adversarial style politics in this country. Occasionally, it would be great to see the two main parties work together on some of the meaty issues of the day. It has happened before. However, I do think if this could happen, it would require the Nats' leader to be more Todd Muller and less Judith Collins.

Any guesses on who will take the plum Cabinet roles vacated by NZF? Who for Defence or Foreign Affairs. I was talking to a couple of armed forces friends today and whilst disappointed that Ron Mark won't be there, their preference was for Andrew Little to take the Defence portfolio. Parker for Foreign Affairs, perhaps? Not clear on the Conservation credentials of any of the Labour caucus. I thought Eugenie Sage was just starting to work out the portfolio after a weak first-year in the role. With my conservation hat on, I'd prefer continuity in that portfolio if at all possible. There's also a need for a few changes around Health & Education. Hipkins can't continue to do both. Kieran McAnulty for Racing Minister?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:13 am
by Kiwias
Auckman wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:52 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:38 am
Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:34 am Must cabinet ministers all come from the ruling party? Or could Jacinda appoint a Green Party MP to her cabinet?
If they negotiate a coalition agreement there's no reason they couldn't have Green MP's in cabinet.
I am wondering if she could have a Green MP in the cabinet even without a coalition agreement.
Yes. Quite normal in the past 20 years. All the Green ministers in the last govt were "ministers outside of cabinet." They only get called into cabinet meetings when their portfolio is on the agenda and the cabinet manual only applies to them only insofar as their area of responsibility is concerned. This arrangement usually happens for confidence and supply relationships.
Thanks

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:16 am
by mr bungle
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:31 am There are fundamentals that don't change, i can bore you with them but it might offend your short attention span that is easily influenced by who is the leader. Ultimately and if I have to summarize it for short attention spans it comes down to the greatest good for the greatest amount of people VS I'm alright mate stuff you.
You can barely type a grammatically correct sentence. I’m not convinced you’re alright.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:18 am
by mr bungle
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:41 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
Also I think I should make clear I don't agree with everything the left and Labour propose. If you search my post history you will see I certainly don't like the Greens. However if you can't see the difference between National and Labour over things like Employment relations, Kiwi Saver, Superannuation, and tax cut VS social services then I fear for your ability to analysis party policy.
Did you mean analyse? You’re a battler. Just so you fully understand, “your a battler”.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:23 am
by Varsity Way
Ardern again? A few more years of diverted streams and dam building.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:25 am
by Fat Old Git
I am very pleased the my protest vote against Brownlee, who has been a dead cert for as long as I can remember, has actually helped to unseat him. :D

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:47 am
by tubbyj
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:18 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:41 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
Also I think I should make clear I don't agree with everything the left and Labour propose. If you search my post history you will see I certainly don't like the Greens. However if you can't see the difference between National and Labour over things like Employment relations, Kiwi Saver, Superannuation, and tax cut VS social services then I fear for your ability to analysis party policy.
Did you mean analyse? You’re a battler. Just so you fully understand, “your a battler”.
The last desperate throws of a weak argument. i appreciate the concession. Cheers.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:04 am
by Kiwias
Fat Old Git wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:25 am I am very pleased the my protest vote against Brownlee, who has been a dead cert for as long as I can remember, has actually helped to unseat him. :D
Well done, mate.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:41 am
by mr bungle
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:47 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:18 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:41 am
mr bungle wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:59 am
tubbyj wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:54 am Didn't you back National under John Key?
I’ve voted all over the spectrum. But that’s done with an understanding that there is no one party that covers my ideology. I can cherry pick from most parties. Greens for this, but not for that. Nats for this, but not for that etc etc etc. I am skeptical of the one party, unwavering, stalwarts. Strange people.
Also I think I should make clear I don't agree with everything the left and Labour propose. If you search my post history you will see I certainly don't like the Greens. However if you can't see the difference between National and Labour over things like Employment relations, Kiwi Saver, Superannuation, and tax cut VS social services then I fear for your ability to analysis party policy.
Did you mean analyse? You’re a battler. Just so you fully understand, “your a battler”.
The last desperate throws of a weak argument. i appreciate the concession. Cheers.
My burden to have witnessed your inarticulate rugby ramblings over the many years.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:04 am
by UncleFB
Tehui wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:38 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:08 pm
Dark wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:01 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:55 am
RuggaBugga wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:25 am

Coalition. This is a historic swing to Labour but we can see a lot of this is covid driven.

If Ardern is serious about being inclusive she'd take the greens on confidence and supply at least and def bring the Maori party into the fold if they come through.

God how much of a cock is Hooton
I definitely wouldn't. There's no need to when Labour dominate the Maori seats. The Maori Party made their bed.
You want the the govt to ditch Whanau Ora. OK. But disagree
I'd prefer Whanau Ora was implemented properly - also I worked on a successful Whanau Ora bid, I also worked on an unsuccessful one too, that was more deserving than the successful one.

But the Maori Party negated their whole reason for existence when they supported the Takutai Moana Act.

Furthermore, why should Labour give the Maori Party any help? If the Maori Party don't exist they dominate the Maori seats, makes no sense to help keep them around.
I can't see Whānau Ora going anywhere. It's an approach that comes from the community, rather than from political parties.
I wasn't suggesting it go anywhere, that was just Dark being Dark, anyway, I think we've discussed my issues with the Maori Party and Whanau Ora offline. My discussion above was based on the initial stages, mainly around how the money was allocated. My home rohe did really well out of it, but, Manawatu-Whanganui did crap and basically had to fund their Whanau Ora initiatives out of other budgets.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:07 am
by deadduck
Is this election the one with the highest percentage of wasted votes?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:32 pm
by Flockwitt
deadduck wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:07 am Is this election the one with the highest percentage of wasted votes?
As I mentioned at the other place, I think this is a very healthy and a positive aspect of MMP. At least there is a place for those votes to go and sends a message to the party that might have expected to get those votes. Have to be happy with the strength of the swing vote that was displayed in this election. The populace got out and made their thoughts known clear and effectively, forcing the defeated party to have a rethink and a rebuild and we'll all be better off for it.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:42 pm
by terangi48
Well that was an interesting month! Signed out for the last four weeks during the leadup to the election, but admit to calling a few times as a ghost to read a few comments that were being chucked around.

Saturday's result was decisive.....and to me was so because the large "central electorate of NZ" who are NOT entrenched in polarised political persuasions, described as left and right, decided that the key issue on the table at this time, is public safety and health for our families, kids, grandkids, elderly and disabled.

This was the first time I have seen sensible voting by an electorate: choose the best candidate for your electorate, and, choose the party which you think will deliver on the the key issue our country is facing at present, and are most likely to keep their eye on the ball.

To see the party vote so decisive and for the first time in MMP history have a majority, emphasised that "middle NZ", elected a government for our times, health of a nation, .....based on their track record to date....

I am well pleased with the result of a mature country that doesn't buy into all that left and right crap that is being tossed around by media constantly, and echoed by their radical fans world wide.

Congratulations middle NZ.........

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:53 pm
by Flockwitt
I think there was another aspect to this and that was Labour played it smart by keeping their policy intentions and rhetoric middle of the road. Uninspiring perhaps but importantly not giving people significant reason to vote against them.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:08 am
by Fat Old Git
I agree. There are some people now calling for radical transformation as Labour could get this through without having the Winnie Handbrake or similar, but it isn't what they campaigned on.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:22 am
by Eugenius
They promised transformation when elected and the party greater will be seriously f**ked off if it isn’t approached this term .

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:23 am
by kiweez
Been away from the site and this thread for a bit.

I miss anything...?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:12 am
by Flockwitt
Eugenius wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:22 am They promised transformation when elected and the party greater will be seriously f**ked off if it isn’t approached this term .
Transformation for what though Eugenius? My comment was in relation more to not giving in to pressure for items say like the Green's wealth tax.

Not saying that Labour shouldn't use their mandate for something significant but rather I remember John Key getting elected including more asset sales in his policy list and trying to use that as his rationale to get them through which thankfully received enough push back to be squashed.

Certainly the recommended education changes that were put forward after review in 2019 were radical to the point of being almost impractical to achieve. Redo the entire funding system for schools and teacher allocation policy, do away with intermediates, introduce a senior high school like they have overseas for years 11, 12 and 13. Refocus NCEA. Years to implement, with significant resources and expenses needed to achieve if anybody tried to enact it.

What would you like to see Labour actually do?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:48 am
by Eugenius
Sort out health funding for a start , it’s still a mess .

Locally the resignation of a brilliant CEO was the condition of the DHB’s debt being written off .

Frankly its been only a marginal improvement after Nationals Coleman and his personal vendetta.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:13 am
by Kahu
If the words of my Nat voting friends are to be believed I expect nothing less than a full transformation to a communist state.

Oh and personally the adoption of Slice of Heaven as our national anthem and Laser Kiwi as our flag.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:16 am
by brat
Can anyone tell me why the media keep saying that over half of voters voted for labour..is this correct?

Edit sorry I mean the majority.. obviously they got majority seats but did they got majority of votes?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:22 am
by guy smiley
brat wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:16 am Can anyone tell me why the media keep saying that over half of voters voted for labour..is this correct?
No, of course not. That’s just ridiculous.

It was only 49.1%.

Idiots.

Clowns.


Rampant fools.


Blowhards.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:22 am
by Dark
brat wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:16 am Can anyone tell me why the media keep saying that over half of voters voted for labour..is this correct?

Edit sorry I mean the majority.. obviously they got majority seats but did they got majority of votes?
Nope

Turnout - 2,877,117

Popular vote - 1,171,544

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:24 am
by Wignu
Although pundits are saying that could carry to over 50% with the estimated half a million special votes to count.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:24 am
by Dark
Should probably add there is still a heap over seas votes to still count though.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:28 am
by Enzedder
The continual questioning of Judith Collins about whether she is staying on as leader is a bit silly.

I understand Paul Goldsmith did the numbers and she has the support of 315 MPs.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:28 am
by Dark
It may well, given they will mostly be from the US and UK, and Ardern is treated a bit like royalty who can do no wrong, by the media in both countries..

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:30 am
by Dark
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:28 am The continual questioning of Judith Collins about whether she is staying on as leader is a bit silly.

I understand Paul Goldsmith did the numbers and she has the support of 315 MPs.
Who else is going to seriously want the job atm?

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:31 am
by Enzedder
Dark wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:22 am
brat wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:16 am Can anyone tell me why the media keep saying that over half of voters voted for labour..is this correct?

Edit sorry I mean the majority.. obviously they got majority seats but did they got majority of votes?
Nope

Turnout - 2,877,117

Popular vote - 1,171,544
Where did you get 2.8m from?
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/1 ... ults-live/

Elections.nz shows 2,383,796 https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/ele ... eliminary/ so probably best we stick with that

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:37 am
by Dark
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:31 am
Dark wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:22 am
brat wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:16 am Can anyone tell me why the media keep saying that over half of voters voted for labour..is this correct?

Edit sorry I mean the majority.. obviously they got majority seats but did they got majority of votes?
Nope

Turnout - 2,877,117 (Total votes so far 2,397,117)

Popular vote - 1,171,544
Where did you get 2.8m from?
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/1 ... ults-live/

Elections.nz shows 2,383,796 https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/ele ... eliminary/ so probably best we stick with that
Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_ ... l_election

Yours is the number of currently counted.

Mine the number of votes received including not counted yet.

So you could possibly say they won over 50% of those that are counted, but it is a of untrue hype to say the election yet

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:38 am
by Wignu
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:28 am The continual questioning of Judith Collins about whether she is staying on as leader is a bit silly.

I understand Paul Goldsmith did the numbers and she has the support of 315 MPs.
:lol: :lol:

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:39 am
by Muttonbirds
Wignu wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:24 am Although pundits are saying that could carry to over 50% with the estimated half a million special votes to count.
Overseas votes help the socially conscious left but so to do domestic specials. The poor and disenfranchised are more likely to have to vote outside their electorate because a greater proportion have to move around for work, accommodation, and family reasons.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:42 am
by Muttonbirds
Talofa, bitches.
This seems to be the quote of the night yelled out by an unidentified young woman at the National Party funeral election party on Saturday night at the RNZYS. Mentioned in two different accounts of that dreadful event.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election- ... 77XVHX3ZM/

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics ... ional.html

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:44 am
by brat
Dark wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:37 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:31 am
Dark wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:22 am
brat wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:16 am Can anyone tell me why the media keep saying that over half of voters voted for labour..is this correct?

Edit sorry I mean the majority.. obviously they got majority seats but did they got majority of votes?
Nope

Turnout - 2,877,117 (Total votes so far 2,397,117)

Popular vote - 1,171,544
Where did you get 2.8m from?
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/1 ... ults-live/

Elections.nz shows 2,383,796 https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/ele ... eliminary/ so probably best we stick with that
Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_ ... l_election

Yours is the number of currently counted.

Mine the number of votes received including not counted yet.

So you could possibly say they won over 50% of those that are counted, but it is a of untrue hype to say the election yet
Cheers thanks to both of you

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:47 am
by Enzedder
What happened to the "wasted vote"?
Party votes cast for parties that don't get enough to make it into Parliament get reallocated to those that do. They get reallocated on a proportional formula, based on the parties that did get into Parliament.

This means that there are often slight distortions – parties that make it into Parliament end up with a slightly larger share of seats than their party vote would indicate.

For example, Labour has just over half the seats in Parliament, and secured just under half of all party votes cast.

This time around, between 7-8 per cent of all votes cast went to parties that didn't end up making it in. If Waiariki flips and Rawiri Waititi loses, that will go up by another 1 per cent. That's relatively high – in 2017 it was less than 5 per cent, and in 2014 it was under 7 per cent.
Interesting stat - but even if the number was dropped to 3%, no extra parties would make it through.

If we made the number at .83% (I seat) then we would have someone from Advance NZ and that thought leaves me cold.

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:48 am
by Dark
Muttonbirds wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:39 am
Wignu wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:24 am Although pundits are saying that could carry to over 50% with the estimated half a million special votes to count.
Overseas votes help the socially conscious left but so to do domestic specials. The poor and disenfranchised are more likely to have to vote outside their electorate because a greater proportion have to move around for work, accommodation, and family reasons.
Or more likely because Labour keeps having to buy hotels all over the place to house the 4 x higher waiting list under their govt ......... so far

Re: NZ Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:49 am
by Enzedder
You are confusing waiting list with homeless