NZ Politics Thread

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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Santa wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:37 am
Kahu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:31 am
Santa wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:22 am I look at the picture of the Labour MPs and two words spring to mind: Alamein Kopu.
I read your last few posts and Matthew Hooton springs to mind. I usually like your posts Santa so I hope you come good soon. Chin up dude
I'm fine. I'm worried about New Zealand. An inexperienced and largely operationally incompetent government has just been elected and given the power to act pretty well unilaterally, at a time when a steady hand and cool headed competence is urgently needed. That has largely been brought about by an opposition that itself is devastatingly incompetent. Shockingly so. National is still the party of Hooten and Farrar and those guys do not have a clue about the new political currents or realignments.
I don’t think you need to be too concerned, Ardern is showing the benefits of her three years as PM and understands acutely the benefit of maintaining a centralist approach and the importance of preserving her personal brand over ideologically driven agendas.

This may be the most conservation administration we have seen for some time.
Ardern appears to have taken to heart the enormous swing of centre and centre-right voters to Labour, which could be a problem for the Greens. When asked whether the Labour-Green victory was a progressive victory, she demurred.

“I think last night’s vote was a vote of confidence in the plan we have around Covid response and recovery.

“That, for me, was a very clear mandate and that is as well what was shared with me through the course of the campaign,” Ardern said.

She even alluded to the fact New Zealand could still be a progressive country under a centre-right government, something that will sound alarm bells for the Greens, who are worried about the effect of the swing of former National voters to Labour.

“I’d like to think NZ has always been a relatively progressive country, even at times when you may have had a centre right government you still see some of those conscience issues coming through,” Ardern said.
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grouch
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by grouch »

Santa said:
I'm fine. I'm worried about New Zealand. An inexperienced and largely operationally incompetent government has just been elected and given the power to act pretty well unilaterally, at a time when a steady hand and cool headed competence is urgently needed. That has largely been brought about by an opposition that itself is devastatingly incompetent. Shockingly so. National is still the party of Hooten and Farrar and those guys do not have a clue about the new political currents or realignments.

When did they ever?

The Gnats current demise is the inevitable consequence of their toxic and destructive 9 years of government.

Their dirty tricks machine and total control of the media systematically removed the competent and ideologically driven from labour & Greens and what remains is basically ass wipes & sycophants with minimal real world experience.

The 'new political currents' are in fact a desperate need for radical reform in all areas of the economy and society and a ,steady as she goes ,neo-liberal approach is a recipe for permanent disaster.

We can agree on the likelihood of a Cabinet chosen from the available pool of troughers and non-relevant academics achieving what the country needs is somewhere between bugger-all and zero .

The most I can muster in the way of enthusiasm is that I can now be sure that one of the planks of a post-covid recovery won't be building more prisons and incarceration for profit.
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

I'm not convinced that the Nats narrative that they lost the election as voters swung to Labour to lock out the Greens makes much sense.

Firstly, if that were the case, then it shouldn't have had an effect on constituency MPs. You're hardly going to vote out Gerry Brownlee or Herete Hipango in order to lock out the Greens. That's non-sensical. Sure, some of the constituency swings were vastly lower than the party vote swing (e.g. Hutt South, Maungakiekie) but to me that looks to be a function of the candidate rather than the party.

The argument also ignores the principle that a number of Labour voters voted Green to ensure there wasn't a lost left-vote of significant proportions. If rural Nats voters veered Labour, then the same principle naturally applies to Labour voters wanting to ensure that the Greens are not lost.

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.

Equally likely is that liberal National supporters veered away from their previous political home as Judith Collins' brand is toxic to centrist/liberal voters.

The problem for National is that if they hang on to this narrative they seem to have latched onto, its another negative starting point for their term in opposition.
Eugenius
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Eugenius »

Gerry , take the hint !

Christchurch doesn’t want a bar of you .
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.
Agreed - it's a political spin to try and make the hurt seem less.
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grouch
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by grouch »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pm I'm not convinced that the Nats narrative that they lost the election as voters swung to Labour to lock out the Greens makes much sense.

Firstly, if that were the case, then it shouldn't have had an effect on constituency MPs. You're hardly going to vote out Gerry Brownlee or Herete Hipango in order to lock out the Greens. That's non-sensical. Sure, some of the constituency swings were vastly lower than the party vote swing (e.g. Hutt South, Maungakiekie) but to me that looks to be a function of the candidate rather than the party.

The argument also ignores the principle that a number of Labour voters voted Green to ensure there wasn't a lost left-vote of significant proportions. If rural Nats voters veered Labour, then the same principle naturally applies to Labour voters wanting to ensure that the Greens are not lost.

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.

Equally likely is that liberal National supporters veered away from their previous political home as Judith Collins' brand is toxic to centrist/liberal voters.

The problem for National is that if they hang on to this narrative they seem to have latched onto, its another negative starting point for their term in opposition.
It's far simpler IMO.

The anti-cannabis parties [ Gnats & NZF ] got caned , particularly in Rural NZ where cannabis use/tolerance is far higher than the policy wonks/spindoctors/lobbyists that infest Wellington and the perpetually dis-informed urbanites elsewhere can comprehend.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Enzedder wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:46 pm
Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.
Agreed - it's a political spin to try and make the hurt seem less.
A massive minority would be 49.9%, I assume he meant a tiny minority. That ruined the entire post for me. I’ve had to put Gordo on ignore to try and get over it.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by obelixtim »

Can't believe how many of the new MPs are lawyers and/or academics. Most have never had a real job.
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 am
Enzedder wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:46 pm
Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.
Agreed - it's a political spin to try and make the hurt seem less.
A massive minority would be 49.9%, I assume he meant a tiny minority. That ruined the entire post for me. I’ve had to put Gordo on ignore to try and get over it.
:lol: Touche.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:16 am
Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 am
Enzedder wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:46 pm
Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.
Agreed - it's a political spin to try and make the hurt seem less.
A massive minority would be 49.9%, I assume he meant a tiny minority. That ruined the entire post for me. I’ve had to put Gordo on ignore to try and get over it.
:lol: Touche.
and to be clear, I agree with your point. If anything I suspect any strategic voting probably reduced the Labour party vote as some punted on the Greens being able to wag the tail and drive a more progressive agenda.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by obelixtim »

So, 25 more cases of covid today, most coming from Ukraine and Russia. A bunch of imported fishermen. WTF is this bullshit?

You can't tell me that they can't find Kiwis to crew these boats, or others to operate agricultural machinery. The only reason for imports from Russia and the Ukraine would be Sealord not wanting to pay a decent wage.

As for not filling positions by kiwis in the short term, this has been going on for 25 years. How short term is that? Sealords boats should be tied up until Kiwis are employed. Instead they are out their raping our seas of fish without employing Kiwis.

Sealord is taking the piss, aided and abetted by our politicians. This stinks, and it doesn't smell like rotten fish.
Yesterday 11 fishermen tested positive out of 237 crew who arrived on a flight from Moscow and landed in Christchurch last week.

Last month the Government announced border exceptions for foreign workers, including 30 veterinarians, 570 deep-sea fishing crew, and 210 agricultural and horticultural mobile plant operators.

Shortages in deep-sea fishing workers could not be filled by Kiwis in the short-term, Immigration Minister Kris Faafoi said at the time.

"In exchange for the border exception, the fishing industry has committed to removing barriers to employing New Zealanders, including reviewing pay structures and business models, and investing significantly in training and education." so said Sealord chief executive Doug Paulin. Paulin said the fishing vessels had 100 per cent foreign crew and it had been that way for 25 years.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:52 amInstead they are out their raping our seas of fish without employing Kiwis.
What a sentence :lol:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by obelixtim »

Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:57 am
obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:52 amInstead they are out their raping our seas of fish without employing Kiwis.
What a sentence :lol:

Those are not just boats they have out there. They are ships. They are not pulling fish up on a hand line. And Kiwis have to pay 50 bucks for a kilo of snapper.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:01 am
Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:57 am
obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:52 amInstead they are out their raping our seas of fish without employing Kiwis.
What a sentence :lol:

Those are not just boats they have out there. They are ships. They are not pulling fish up on a hand line. And Kiwis have to pay 50 bucks for a kilo of snapper.
Sea Raper would be a good name for a fishing boat.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Mr Mike wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:56 am
Santa wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:37 am
Kahu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:31 am
Santa wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:22 am I look at the picture of the Labour MPs and two words spring to mind: Alamein Kopu.
I read your last few posts and Matthew Hooton springs to mind. I usually like your posts Santa so I hope you come good soon. Chin up dude
I'm fine. I'm worried about New Zealand. An inexperienced and largely operationally incompetent government has just been elected and given the power to act pretty well unilaterally, at a time when a steady hand and cool headed competence is urgently needed. That has largely been brought about by an opposition that itself is devastatingly incompetent. Shockingly so. National is still the party of Hooten and Farrar and those guys do not have a clue about the new political currents or realignments.
I don’t think you need to be too concerned, Ardern is showing the benefits of her three years as PM and understands acutely the benefit of maintaining a centralist approach and the importance of preserving her personal brand over ideologically driven agendas.

This may be the most conservation administration we have seen for some time.
Ardern appears to have taken to heart the enormous swing of centre and centre-right voters to Labour, which could be a problem for the Greens. When asked whether the Labour-Green victory was a progressive victory, she demurred.

“I think last night’s vote was a vote of confidence in the plan we have around Covid response and recovery.

“That, for me, was a very clear mandate and that is as well what was shared with me through the course of the campaign,” Ardern said.

She even alluded to the fact New Zealand could still be a progressive country under a centre-right government, something that will sound alarm bells for the Greens, who are worried about the effect of the swing of former National voters to Labour.

“I’d like to think NZ has always been a relatively progressive country, even at times when you may have had a centre right government you still see some of those conscience issues coming through,” Ardern said.
You might be right but I'm not sure a do nothing approach is the right one in the current circumstances. There have to be some properly bold and well thought through moves I think. No idea what they might be though.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Santa wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:15 amThere have to be some properly bold and well thought through moves I think. No idea what they might be though.
You sound like cabinet material.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by MungoMan »

Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:57 am
obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:52 amInstead they are out their raping our seas of fish without employing Kiwis.
What a sentence :lol:
Plus any fule kno Kiwis kill seals, not rape fish.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Brabus »

grouch wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:30 pm Santa said:
I'm fine. I'm worried about New Zealand. An inexperienced and largely operationally incompetent government has just been elected and given the power to act pretty well unilaterally, at a time when a steady hand and cool headed competence is urgently needed. That has largely been brought about by an opposition that itself is devastatingly incompetent. Shockingly so. National is still the party of Hooten and Farrar and those guys do not have a clue about the new political currents or realignments.

When did they ever?

The Gnats current demise is the inevitable consequence of their toxic and destructive 9 years of government.

Their dirty tricks machine and total control of the media systematically removed the competent and ideologically driven from labour & Greens and what remains is basically ass wipes & sycophants with minimal real world experience.

The 'new political currents' are in fact a desperate need for radical reform in all areas of the economy and society and a ,steady as she goes ,neo-liberal approach is a recipe for permanent disaster.

We can agree on the likelihood of a Cabinet chosen from the available pool of troughers and non-relevant academics achieving what the country needs is somewhere between bugger-all and zero .

The most I can muster in the way of enthusiasm is that I can now be sure that one of the planks of a post-covid recovery won't be building more prisons and incarceration for profit.
Oh please. Labour got back in because they basically did nothing (their utter appaling treatment of partnership schools aside showing that they are more concerned with helping out their mates than NZ's most vulnerable)

This election was a vote for the status quoe. If Labour go hard out in the direction the likes of Mutton wants them to go they'll be out on their ear next time round.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:20 am
Santa wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:15 amThere have to be some properly bold and well thought through moves I think. No idea what they might be though.
You sound like cabinet material.
:lol: Fair.

All I'm saying is her small target strategy of say nothing, promise nothing, plan nothing will likely lead to doing nothing and doing it incoherently, and that trajectory will leave NZ without a first world economy in 10 years. Are there any big vision intellectuals in the Labour party. What does Jacinda actually want New Zealand to look like other than nicer? Big government or small? Lots of SMEs or big public employers? What about the 50% low IQ people being edged out of work as everything becomes computer-based? Do they even think about these things? What actually is their, or her, political philosophy? Do they or she even have one? Nobody knows.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Brabus »

Santa wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:36 am
Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:20 am
Santa wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:15 amThere have to be some properly bold and well thought through moves I think. No idea what they might be though.
You sound like cabinet material.
:lol: Fair.

All I'm saying is her small target strategy of say nothing, promise nothing, plan nothing will likely lead to doing nothing and doing it incoherently, and that trajectory will leave NZ without a first world economy in 10 years. Are there any big vision intellectuals in the Labour party. What does Jacinda actually want New Zealand to look like other than nicer? Big government or small? Lots of SMEs or big public employers? What about the 50% low IQ people being edged out of work as everything becomes computer-based? Do they even think about these things? What actually is their, or her, political philosophy? Do they or she even have one? Nobody knows.
Jacinda is basically John Key 2.0 but without the nouce. Smile and wave and get nothing done. And thank the Good Lord for that, God help us if she drops the populism and actually tries to drive change.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Auckman »

obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:40 am Can't believe how many of the new MPs are lawyers and/or academics. Most have never had a real job.
They're not. They're mostly practising lawyers and doctors (including a practising midwife). There are now 14 lawyers in the labour caucus. I'd have thought lawyers were the best people to write the laws.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Auckman »

Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:20 am
Santa wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:15 amThere have to be some properly bold and well thought through moves I think. No idea what they might be though.
You sound like cabinet material.
:lol:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Santa »

Brabus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:51 am
Santa wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:36 am
Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:20 am
Santa wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:15 amThere have to be some properly bold and well thought through moves I think. No idea what they might be though.
You sound like cabinet material.
:lol: Fair.

All I'm saying is her small target strategy of say nothing, promise nothing, plan nothing will likely lead to doing nothing and doing it incoherently, and that trajectory will leave NZ without a first world economy in 10 years. Are there any big vision intellectuals in the Labour party. What does Jacinda actually want New Zealand to look like other than nicer? Big government or small? Lots of SMEs or big public employers? What about the 50% low IQ people being edged out of work as everything becomes computer-based? Do they even think about these things? What actually is their, or her, political philosophy? Do they or she even have one? Nobody knows.
Jacinda is basically John Key 2.0 but without the nouce. Smile and wave and get nothing done. And thank the Good Lord for that, God help us if she drops the populism and actually tries to drive change.
Yes New Zealand is typically a low variance political and economic system and that is normally my preference.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:21 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:16 am
Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 am
Enzedder wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:46 pm
Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.
Agreed - it's a political spin to try and make the hurt seem less.
A massive minority would be 49.9%, I assume he meant a tiny minority. That ruined the entire post for me. I’ve had to put Gordo on ignore to try and get over it.
:lol: Touche.
and to be clear, I agree with your point. If anything I suspect any strategic voting probably reduced the Labour party vote as some punted on the Greens being able to wag the tail and drive a more progressive agenda.
Ahem - you meant the tail being able to wag the dog.

Onto ignore you go. Standards must be maintained.
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Enzedder wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:19 am
Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:21 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:16 am
Mr Mike wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 am
Enzedder wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:46 pmAgreed - it's a political spin to try and make the hurt seem less.
A massive minority would be 49.9%, I assume he meant a tiny minority. That ruined the entire post for me. I’ve had to put Gordo on ignore to try and get over it.
:lol: Touche.
and to be clear, I agree with your point. If anything I suspect any strategic voting probably reduced the Labour party vote as some punted on the Greens being able to wag the tail and drive a more progressive agenda.
Ahem - you meant the tail being able to wag the dog.

Onto ignore you go. Standards must be maintained.
Sound policy.

Image
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Mr Mike
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Mr Mike »

Auckman wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:58 am
obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:40 am Can't believe how many of the new MPs are lawyers and/or academics. Most have never had a real job.
They're not. They're mostly practising lawyers and doctors (including a practising midwife). There are now 14 lawyers in the labour caucus. I'd have thought lawyers were the best people to write the laws.
and the academics probably had shifts at a cafe or McD’s before they got tenure.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Mr Mike wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:56 am
Santa wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:37 am
Kahu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:31 am
Santa wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:22 am I look at the picture of the Labour MPs and two words spring to mind: Alamein Kopu.
I read your last few posts and Matthew Hooton springs to mind. I usually like your posts Santa so I hope you come good soon. Chin up dude
I'm fine. I'm worried about New Zealand. An inexperienced and largely operationally incompetent government has just been elected and given the power to act pretty well unilaterally, at a time when a steady hand and cool headed competence is urgently needed. That has largely been brought about by an opposition that itself is devastatingly incompetent. Shockingly so. National is still the party of Hooten and Farrar and those guys do not have a clue about the new political currents or realignments.
I don’t think you need to be too concerned, Ardern is showing the benefits of her three years as PM and understands acutely the benefit of maintaining a centralist approach and the importance of preserving her personal brand over ideologically driven agendas.

This may be the most conservation administration we have seen for some time.
Ardern appears to have taken to heart the enormous swing of centre and centre-right voters to Labour, which could be a problem for the Greens. When asked whether the Labour-Green victory was a progressive victory, she demurred.

“I think last night’s vote was a vote of confidence in the plan we have around Covid response and recovery.

“That, for me, was a very clear mandate and that is as well what was shared with me through the course of the campaign,” Ardern said.

She even alluded to the fact New Zealand could still be a progressive country under a centre-right government, something that will sound alarm bells for the Greens, who are worried about the effect of the swing of former National voters to Labour.

“I’d like to think NZ has always been a relatively progressive country, even at times when you may have had a centre right government you still see some of those conscience issues coming through,” Ardern said.
OK

This is the govt that in the midst of small business dropping like rain due to Covid, which could go on for who knows how long

They massively raise the minimum wage
Add another weeks sick pay they have to pay
Add another public holiday they have to pay

And we are supposed to think they can keep the economy running and businesses thriving
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pm I'm not convinced that the Nats narrative that they lost the election as voters swung to Labour to lock out the Greens makes much sense.

Firstly, if that were the case, then it shouldn't have had an effect on constituency MPs. You're hardly going to vote out Gerry Brownlee or Herete Hipango in order to lock out the Greens. That's non-sensical. Sure, some of the constituency swings were vastly lower than the party vote swing (e.g. Hutt South, Maungakiekie) but to me that looks to be a function of the candidate rather than the party.

The argument also ignores the principle that a number of Labour voters voted Green to ensure there wasn't a lost left-vote of significant proportions. If rural Nats voters veered Labour, then the same principle naturally applies to Labour voters wanting to ensure that the Greens are not lost.

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.

Equally likely is that liberal National supporters veered away from their previous political home as Judith Collins' brand is toxic to centrist/liberal voters.

The problem for National is that if they hang on to this narrative they seem to have latched onto, its another negative starting point for their term in opposition.
The idea that 250,000 people strategically voted for Labour to keep the Greens out of government is farcical, and a simply a narrative (as you point out) the very blind Nats are pushing because they refuse to believe the outcome of the election.

The other narrative going around is that Ardern should soften any 'scary' policy and exclude the Greens because they have had a lot of 'National voters' vote Labour which apparently Labour now need to molly-coddle.

Screw that, they're not 'National voters' anymore, ffs. They're Labour voters now.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

25 new cases

2 of them in the community

:(
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:32 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pm I'm not convinced that the Nats narrative that they lost the election as voters swung to Labour to lock out the Greens makes much sense.

Firstly, if that were the case, then it shouldn't have had an effect on constituency MPs. You're hardly going to vote out Gerry Brownlee or Herete Hipango in order to lock out the Greens. That's non-sensical. Sure, some of the constituency swings were vastly lower than the party vote swing (e.g. Hutt South, Maungakiekie) but to me that looks to be a function of the candidate rather than the party.

The argument also ignores the principle that a number of Labour voters voted Green to ensure there wasn't a lost left-vote of significant proportions. If rural Nats voters veered Labour, then the same principle naturally applies to Labour voters wanting to ensure that the Greens are not lost.

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.

Equally likely is that liberal National supporters veered away from their previous political home as Judith Collins' brand is toxic to centrist/liberal voters.

The problem for National is that if they hang on to this narrative they seem to have latched onto, its another negative starting point for their term in opposition.
The idea that 250,000 people strategically voted for Labour to keep the Greens out of government is farcical, and a simply a narrative (as you point out) the very blind Nats are pushing because they refuse to believe the outcome of the election.

The other narrative going around is that Ardern should soften any 'scary' policy and exclude the Greens because they have had a lot of 'National voters' vote Labour which apparently Labour now need to molly-coddle.

Screw that, they're not 'National voters' anymore, ffs. They're Labour voters now.
No they are swing voters

And may just switch next time
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

I was one who thought about voting Greens to help keep Labour from doing exactly what they appear to destined to do, and that is drift to the impotent centre.

In the end, in the polling booth, I thought it would be churlish to not reward JA for the job she has done with Covid-19.

The idea Labour should refuse to include the Greens in government because a few new Labour voters might get upset is revolting. :thumbdown:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:41 am I was one who thought about voting Greens to help keep Labour from doing exactly what they appear to destined to do, and that is drift to the impotent centre.

In the end, in the polling booth, I thought it would be churlish to not reward JA for the job she has done with Covid-19.

The idea Labour should refuse to include the Greens in government because a few new Labour voters might get upset is revolting. :thumbdown:
:lol: :lol:

Weep for me

I want to taste your tears
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

Dark wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:35 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:32 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pm I'm not convinced that the Nats narrative that they lost the election as voters swung to Labour to lock out the Greens makes much sense.

Firstly, if that were the case, then it shouldn't have had an effect on constituency MPs. You're hardly going to vote out Gerry Brownlee or Herete Hipango in order to lock out the Greens. That's non-sensical. Sure, some of the constituency swings were vastly lower than the party vote swing (e.g. Hutt South, Maungakiekie) but to me that looks to be a function of the candidate rather than the party.

The argument also ignores the principle that a number of Labour voters voted Green to ensure there wasn't a lost left-vote of significant proportions. If rural Nats voters veered Labour, then the same principle naturally applies to Labour voters wanting to ensure that the Greens are not lost.

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.

Equally likely is that liberal National supporters veered away from their previous political home as Judith Collins' brand is toxic to centrist/liberal voters.

The problem for National is that if they hang on to this narrative they seem to have latched onto, its another negative starting point for their term in opposition.
The idea that 250,000 people strategically voted for Labour to keep the Greens out of government is farcical, and a simply a narrative (as you point out) the very blind Nats are pushing because they refuse to believe the outcome of the election.

The other narrative going around is that Ardern should soften any 'scary' policy and exclude the Greens because they have had a lot of 'National voters' vote Labour which apparently Labour now need to molly-coddle.

Screw that, they're not 'National voters' anymore, ffs. They're Labour voters now.
No they are swing voters

And may just switch next time
They voted Labour. They are Labour voters for the next three years at least. :smug:
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Dark »

Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:43 am
Dark wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:35 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:32 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pm I'm not convinced that the Nats narrative that they lost the election as voters swung to Labour to lock out the Greens makes much sense.

Firstly, if that were the case, then it shouldn't have had an effect on constituency MPs. You're hardly going to vote out Gerry Brownlee or Herete Hipango in order to lock out the Greens. That's non-sensical. Sure, some of the constituency swings were vastly lower than the party vote swing (e.g. Hutt South, Maungakiekie) but to me that looks to be a function of the candidate rather than the party.

The argument also ignores the principle that a number of Labour voters voted Green to ensure there wasn't a lost left-vote of significant proportions. If rural Nats voters veered Labour, then the same principle naturally applies to Labour voters wanting to ensure that the Greens are not lost.

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.

Equally likely is that liberal National supporters veered away from their previous political home as Judith Collins' brand is toxic to centrist/liberal voters.

The problem for National is that if they hang on to this narrative they seem to have latched onto, its another negative starting point for their term in opposition.
The idea that 250,000 people strategically voted for Labour to keep the Greens out of government is farcical, and a simply a narrative (as you point out) the very blind Nats are pushing because they refuse to believe the outcome of the election.

The other narrative going around is that Ardern should soften any 'scary' policy and exclude the Greens because they have had a lot of 'National voters' vote Labour which apparently Labour now need to molly-coddle.

Screw that, they're not 'National voters' anymore, ffs. They're Labour voters now.
No they are swing voters

And may just switch next time
They voted Labour. They are Labour voters for the next three years at least. :smug:
The problem they have is they are one trick pony, with no depth apart 4 (maybe 5 if you include Faafoi, which I personally would) people who know what they are doing out of 64.

You can't grasp the straw that Ardern is "young and hip" at 43 next time.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

One of the best political reporters going around, Henry Cooke, says, "There is no evidence National voters backed Labour to keep the Greens out".
(The) theory currently being circulated by some Federated Farmers branch presidents and others (is) that a large contingent of the rural vote backed Labour in order to keep the Green Party from being needed to govern.

At this point there is no evidence this happened at sufficient scale to seriously change the election result.

But the theory is very useful for people in the sector and on the political Right who need to explain why a Government supposedly at war with the regions got so much support from them – and to pressure Labour to not give the Green Party an inch of power.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... greens-out

Even after an humiliating defeat the Nats and their lobbyists continue to spin outright lies. They can't even take a week off!
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

Dark wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:43 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:41 am I was one who thought about voting Greens to help keep Labour from doing exactly what they appear to destined to do, and that is drift to the impotent centre.

In the end, in the polling booth, I thought it would be churlish to not reward JA for the job she has done with Covid-19.

The idea Labour should refuse to include the Greens in government because a few new Labour voters might get upset is revolting. :thumbdown:
:lol: :lol:

Weep for me

I want to taste your tears
Meh. Your crew just got gaped the way this country hasn't seen in generations. Suck it up.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Gordon Bennett »

Dark wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:58 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:43 am
Dark wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:35 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:32 am
Gordon Bennett wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pm I'm not convinced that the Nats narrative that they lost the election as voters swung to Labour to lock out the Greens makes much sense.

Firstly, if that were the case, then it shouldn't have had an effect on constituency MPs. You're hardly going to vote out Gerry Brownlee or Herete Hipango in order to lock out the Greens. That's non-sensical. Sure, some of the constituency swings were vastly lower than the party vote swing (e.g. Hutt South, Maungakiekie) but to me that looks to be a function of the candidate rather than the party.

The argument also ignores the principle that a number of Labour voters voted Green to ensure there wasn't a lost left-vote of significant proportions. If rural Nats voters veered Labour, then the same principle naturally applies to Labour voters wanting to ensure that the Greens are not lost.

Personally, I just think this kind of Machiavellian voter is a massive minority.

Equally likely is that liberal National supporters veered away from their previous political home as Judith Collins' brand is toxic to centrist/liberal voters.

The problem for National is that if they hang on to this narrative they seem to have latched onto, its another negative starting point for their term in opposition.
The idea that 250,000 people strategically voted for Labour to keep the Greens out of government is farcical, and a simply a narrative (as you point out) the very blind Nats are pushing because they refuse to believe the outcome of the election.

The other narrative going around is that Ardern should soften any 'scary' policy and exclude the Greens because they have had a lot of 'National voters' vote Labour which apparently Labour now need to molly-coddle.

Screw that, they're not 'National voters' anymore, ffs. They're Labour voters now.
No they are swing voters

And may just switch next time
They voted Labour. They are Labour voters for the next three years at least. :smug:
The problem they have is they are one trick pony, with no depth apart 4 (maybe 5 if you include Faafoi, which I personally would) people who know what they are doing out of 64.

You can't grasp the straw that Ardern is "young and hip" at 43 next time.
Ardern, Hipkins, Robertson, Little, Parker, Faafoi... Nash is okay-ish, Davis is by what I hear quite an effective Corrections Minister (Tourism perhaps not his forte). I don't think Damien O'Connor's the worst Agriculture Minister, but otherwise I do agree (and I've said before) the depth is puddle deep. Don't know enough about the 2017 or 2020 intake to know whether or not there might be some decent talent in the new crop.
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Enzedder »

The problem they have is they are one trick pony, with no depth apart 4 (maybe 5 if you include Faafoi, which I personally would) people who know what they are doing out of 64.
The worst part (and you conveniently haven't mentioned it) is that Labour have more experience in the cabinet level of Government than National currently have. If experience or depth is your measure for being in Government, then you are saying that National should never govern again??
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Muttonbirds »

Davidson said the Greens starting point was around "what we can do to makes changes in the areas of protecting climate, our environment and addressing inequality".
RWNJs be very afraid. :?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election- ... JJKAUJ2WY/
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Re: NZ Politics Thread

Post by Couch »

obelixtim wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:40 am Can't believe how many of the new MPs are lawyers and/or academics. Most have never had a real job.
People that have been in Parliament for more than 20 years still haven't had a real job in more than 20 years
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