The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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amadangomor
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by amadangomor »

Good article there.The part where he mentions the fact that we haven't translated our success in the HC to Intl success is good.With the same spiel trotted out about the difference in level.

There is a difference in level yet average players at HC level for Wales are devastating at Intl level.ie Wales are getting the most out of their available talent but we're less than the sum of our parts and underachieving.

"The current line of though seems to be that what we think of as ‘excellent’ at provincial level isn’t actually ‘excellent’ at international level. Well, we all saw JJV Davies looking pretty ordinary for the Scarlets against Munster in the HEC, so how come his average provincial form translates into shit-hot international form? You know where I’m going here: coaching and attitude at the respective international camps."
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lorcanoworms
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by lorcanoworms »

What we are not addressing is Wales ability to carry into us so well, I think intestinal fortitude comes into question here.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SASP »

lorcanoworms wrote:What we are not addressing is Wales ability to carry into us so well, I think intestinal fortitude comes into question here.
Let me try. Wales have 4 big carriers in their BACK line. To stop this physical superiority our backs have come up faster and not let them build momemtum before the tackle. We instead let them come at us and you all know the result.
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lorcanoworms
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by lorcanoworms »

SASP wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:What we are not addressing is Wales ability to carry into us so well, I think intestinal fortitude comes into question here.
Let me try. Wales have 4 big carriers in their BACK line. To stop this physical superiority our backs have come up faster and not let them build momemtum before the tackle. We instead let them come at us and you all know the result.
Nope in the last drive for the Ferris yc and the lead Priestland did some of the damage,also when POC was caught with the ball by North which stopped a likely try well any of Wales second rows would have done a simple take and give.
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CM11
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

lorcanoworms wrote:
SASP wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:What we are not addressing is Wales ability to carry into us so well, I think intestinal fortitude comes into question here.
Let me try. Wales have 4 big carriers in their BACK line. To stop this physical superiority our backs have come up faster and not let them build momemtum before the tackle. We instead let them come at us and you all know the result.
Nope in the last drive for the Ferris yc and the lead Priestland did some of the damage,also when POC was caught with the ball by North which stopped a likely try well any of Wales second rows would have done a simple take and give.
POC has done a little better recently with his offloads and passing than before but it does beg the question as to why we don't pick Ryan who, among other things, is a decent offloader.

I agree that we just weren't at the races in terms of intensity in defence against Wales and only some of it was a result of Wales' big men. The time Philips was allowed run about 20m from the scrum was the highlight and hassling the oppo SH is something I'd like to see more of from Murray.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by redrebel »

CM11 wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:
SASP wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:What we are not addressing is Wales ability to carry into us so well, I think intestinal fortitude comes into question here.
Let me try. Wales have 4 big carriers in their BACK line. To stop this physical superiority our backs have come up faster and not let them build momemtum before the tackle. We instead let them come at us and you all know the result.
Nope in the last drive for the Ferris yc and the lead Priestland did some of the damage,also when POC was caught with the ball by North which stopped a likely try well any of Wales second rows would have done a simple take and give.
POC has done a little better recently with his offloads and passing than before but it does beg the question as to why we don't pick Ryan who, among other things, is a decent offloader.

I agree that we just weren't at the races in terms of intensity in defence against Wales and only some of it was a result of Wales' big men. The time Philips was allowed run about 20m from the scrum was the highlight and hassling the oppo SH is something I'd like to see more of from Murray.
DOC must know where Kidenme buried the bodies!
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SASP »

lorcanoworms wrote:
SASP wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:What we are not addressing is Wales ability to carry into us so well, I think intestinal fortitude comes into question here.
Let me try. Wales have 4 big carriers in their BACK line. To stop this physical superiority our backs have come up faster and not let them build momemtum before the tackle. We instead let them come at us and you all know the result.
Nope in the last drive for the Ferris yc and the lead Priestland did some of the damage,also when POC was caught with the ball by North which stopped a likely try well any of Wales second rows would have done a simple take and give.
Wait what do you want to talk about? POC not passing or welsh carrying?
In the lead up to the Ferris yellow Ireland were retreating instead of pushing up in defense. When I said the have four big carriers I didn't mean they did all the damage just pointing out that you cant deny their physical advantage. But you can try to reduce their impact with more aggressive defending. We didn't do that.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by lorcanoworms »

SASP wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:
SASP wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:What we are not addressing is Wales ability to carry into us so well, I think intestinal fortitude comes into question here.
Let me try. Wales have 4 big carriers in their BACK line. To stop this physical superiority our backs have come up faster and not let them build momemtum before the tackle. We instead let them come at us and you all know the result.
Nope in the last drive for the Ferris yc and the lead Priestland did some of the damage,also when POC was caught with the ball by North which stopped a likely try well any of Wales second rows would have done a simple take and give.
Wait what do you want to talk about? POC not passing or welsh carrying?
In the lead up to the Ferris yellow Ireland were retreating instead of pushing up in defense. When I said the have four big carriers I didn't mean they did all the damage just pointing out that you cant deny their physical advantage. But you can try to reduce their impact with more aggressive defending. We didn't do that.
I want to discuss what we are missing out on on this thread, and I agree our tame defence is the issue.
Going forward can we be more proactive in this matter.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by LeinsterLion »

FYI, Setanta are scheduled to show the Leinster match tomorrow morning. Now I've been burned by them changing the scheduling before with no notice, but with neither tg4 nor rte showing it may be the only possibility of watching it (unless there's a decent stream from Italy, but if you can't watch that live like me you're stuck)
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grimoald
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by grimoald »

amadangomor wrote:Good article there.The part where he mentions the fact that we haven't translated our success in the HC to Intl success is good.With the same spiel trotted out about the difference in level.

There is a difference in level yet average players at HC level for Wales are devastating at Intl level.ie Wales are getting the most out of their available talent but we're less than the sum of our parts and underachieving.

"The current line of though seems to be that what we think of as ‘excellent’ at provincial level isn’t actually ‘excellent’ at international level. Well, we all saw JJV Davies looking pretty ordinary for the Scarlets against Munster in the HEC, so how come his average provincial form translates into shit-hot international form? You know where I’m going here: coaching and attitude at the respective international camps."
The game is different at International level, the players aren't blowing smoke when they say it is tougher.

The club/provincial game is better structured and more cohesive, but the simple fact is that the individual collisions aren't as hard or intense and across the board the players are rarely as good (last year's HEC final had a handful of players not up to international standard). Players who can look very good at the lower level can't hack it a step up and antithetically, some players who don't thrive at the lower level can excel the level up, maybe because of effort or where one-on-one battles are more important - for the last 4 or 5 years, Nonu has been a better International player than provincial one.

Your Davies example is bollocks because the Scarlets backs coaching is great, and better than what Howley does for Wales. The reason he looks better for his country is that he actually gets a platform for them, and with the addition of Roberts he isn't the focal point of their attack. His straight line running game is also very well suited to International rugby, where the importance of ball retention is exacerbated.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by binge90 »

grimoald wrote:
amadangomor wrote:Good article there.The part where he mentions the fact that we haven't translated our success in the HC to Intl success is good.With the same spiel trotted out about the difference in level.

There is a difference in level yet average players at HC level for Wales are devastating at Intl level.ie Wales are getting the most out of their available talent but we're less than the sum of our parts and underachieving.

"The current line of though seems to be that what we think of as ‘excellent’ at provincial level isn’t actually ‘excellent’ at international level. Well, we all saw JJV Davies looking pretty ordinary for the Scarlets against Munster in the HEC, so how come his average provincial form translates into shit-hot international form? You know where I’m going here: coaching and attitude at the respective international camps."
LEAVE KIDNEY ALONE!
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by LeinsterLion »

grimoald wrote:
amadangomor wrote:Good article there.The part where he mentions the fact that we haven't translated our success in the HC to Intl success is good.With the same spiel trotted out about the difference in level.

There is a difference in level yet average players at HC level for Wales are devastating at Intl level.ie Wales are getting the most out of their available talent but we're less than the sum of our parts and underachieving.

"The current line of though seems to be that what we think of as ‘excellent’ at provincial level isn’t actually ‘excellent’ at international level. Well, we all saw JJV Davies looking pretty ordinary for the Scarlets against Munster in the HEC, so how come his average provincial form translates into shit-hot international form? You know where I’m going here: coaching and attitude at the respective international camps."
The game is different at International level, the players aren't blowing smoke when they say it is tougher.

The club/provincial game is better structured and more cohesive, but the simple fact is that the individual collisions aren't as hard or intense and across the board the players are rarely as good (last year's HEC final had a handful of players not up to international standard). Players who can look very good at the lower level can't hack it a step up and antithetically, some players who don't thrive at the lower level can excel the level up, maybe because of effort or where one-on-one battles are more important - for the last 4 or 5 years, Nonu has been a better International player than provincial one.

Your Davies example is bollocks because the Scarlets backs coaching is great, and better than what Howley does for Wales. The reason he looks better for his country is that he actually gets a platform for them, and with the addition of Roberts he isn't the focal point of their attack. His straight line running game is also very well suited to International rugby, where the importance of ball retention is exacerbated.
Which still doesn't address the fact that the international side should be getting more from the players who are doing well at the lower level than it is. Three very good sides and the coaches can't get more than the sum of it's parts from the squad. Others can.


For all the excuses and reasons trotted out the fact remains that despite having more players of better quality playing better provincial rugby at a higher standard than ever before our record over the last 18 months is shite. Not just disappointing or a bit below standard.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by grimoald »

We have underperformed to an extent, but we have a few serious deficiencies and Wales currently have a core of players that is better than us.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Uncle Fester »

We've been over this before. Winning HEC's doesn't give us a god given right to win at international level and that success is probably skewing the expectations of Irish fans.

For starters, we concentrate the bulk of our international players in to just two teams. If the French did that, nobody else would ever win a Heineken cup again. 73% percent of our RWC squad play with those two teams. The comparable stat for France (Toulouse & Biarritz) is 13 (43%). England (Leicester & Northampton) is 12 (40%).

There's also the fact that key foreign players change the entire complexion of playing styles. It's unreasonable to expect the Ireland backline to perform like the Leinster backline when a key component of that Leinster backline and one of the best players in Europe is NIQ.

Spread our players out over 12 clubs like the English or even 14 like the French and how many HEC trophies will be in the cabinet then? Our domestic setup is perfectly setup to win Heineken cups but I do think it's shortchanging the national team, especially when it comes to actively stifling the development of younger players.

What I want to see is the govt tax scheme changed to something that encourages players to spend their best years in Ireland and then head to France for a pension top up before they retire with only key players (BOD, POC, etc) getting deals later in their careers.

I want to see all the MOD's, D'Arcy's and all the other mid-level players in their 30's blocking younger players packed off to Toulon.

I also want to see provincial teams occasionally stripped to bare bones so coaches have no choice other than to play academy lads, like say Flanagan for Leinster recently. It happens to the others in the ML quite a bit and we mollycoddle our young players far too much.

If Irish clubs never win a HEC again (yes I include Munster in that) but we get real success in green, I'll consider that a fair trade off.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by LeinsterLion »

grimoald wrote:We have underperformed to an extent, but we have a few serious deficiencies and Wales currently have a core of players that is better than us.
More excuse making. They are not better when split over three teams, and they still only beat us by a point in the last game. I thought we were long past this whole doff-the-hat, "sure aren't we just happy to be there" false modesty shit to be honest.
Uncle Fester wrote:We've been over this before. Winning HEC's doesn't give us a god given right to win at international level and that success is probably skewing the expectations of Irish fans.
I'm not saying it does. But it sure as shit doesn't harm your chances.
For starters, we concentrate the bulk of our international players in to just two teams. If the French did that, nobody else would ever win a Heineken cup again. 73% percent of our RWC squad play with those two teams. The comparable stat for France (Toulouse & Biarritz) is 13 (43%). England (Leicester & Northampton) is 12 (40%).
I note you've left Wales out of that. You know, the team currently topping the 6N table?
There's also the fact that key foreign players change the entire complexion of playing styles. It's unreasonable to expect the Ireland backline to perform like the Leinster backline when a key component of that Leinster backline and one of the best players in Europe is NIQ.
Ah here, one player out does not make everything else fall apart, no matter how good the player. Look at Leinster minus BOD.
Spread our players out over 12 clubs like the English or even 14 like the French and how many HEC trophies will be in the cabinet then? Our domestic setup is perfectly setup to win Heineken cups but I do think it's shortchanging the national team, especially when it comes to actively stifling the development of younger players.
I know full sure we wouldn't have HEC trophies. So? This discussion is about the national side, and how the HEC success helps or hinders it. I think (and I'm not being funny) that it shortchanging the national team is bollox. You acknowledge yourself that we don't have the player for more sides, so having successful sides with the quality brought together as a streamlined path to the national side is fine. All this handwringing about the "bad" effect of the provincial setup on the national side is in sharp contrast to the view elsewhere of how lucky we are with it, how it suits the SH giants as well, and how, and this can't be ignored, Wales have the same but are playing better rugby. I'm not saying the provincial setup is perfect, but it's certainly far more positive than negative and using it as an excuse for the problems at international level is just daft.

What I want to see is the govt tax scheme changed to something that encourages players to spend their best years in Ireland and then head to France for a pension top up before they retire with only key players (BOD, POC, etc) getting deals later in their careers.

I want to see all the MOD's, D'Arcy's and all the other mid-level players in their 30's blocking younger players packed off to Toulon.
I think there's a fine balance to be struck - the current balance is off because it's only now the academies are catching up and there is a "missing" generation beneath them. But that the setup is fine IMO.
I also want to see provincial teams occasionally stripped to bare bones so coaches have no choice other than to play academy lads, like say Flanagan for Leinster recently. It happens to the others in the ML quite a bit and we mollycoddle our young players far too much.
This is a coaching issue and I think Schmidt, McLoughlin and to a lesser extent Cheika and McGahan have shown the way forward in that regard. The structure isn't stopping roatation, building of squads and promotion of youth, as has been shown.
If Irish clubs never win a HEC again (yes I include Munster in that) but we get real success in green, I'll consider that a fair trade off.
This is what I don't get - it doesn't have to be a one or the other thing. They are complimentary rather than at odds with one another.


I say it again though, all of this is just more and more excuses. The quality players are there, the player depth is there, they are capable. But the results are not being obtained. It's funny to see that many of the excuses being affored the coaches were not affored to the last regime.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by grimoald »

LeinsterLion wrote: More excuse making. They are not better when split over three teams, and they still only beat us by a point in the last game. I thought we were long past this whole doff-the-hat, "sure aren't we just happy to be there" false modesty shit to be honest.
Their players are more evenly split over 4 teams (3 1st choice players are Dragons), and their imports are generally no where near the same quality.
LeinsterLion wrote:I say it again though, all of this is just more and more excuses. The quality players are there, the player depth is there, they are capable. But the results are not being obtained. It's funny to see that many of the excuses being affored the coaches were not affored to the last regime.
There is a reason that was called the golden generation.

The quality currently isn't there at 3, 4, 7, 9 and 12.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DiscoHips D'Arcy »

Got to agree with LL for the most part. Nacewa is a phenomenal player but to say your winger (as that's where he plays with Kearney fit) dramatically changes the style and effectiveness of Leinsters play is nonsense.

The omission of Wales is notable too and although their stars are now shifting to France they are primarily drawn from the scarlets, blues and ospreys who you could argue are all poorer teams then Munster, Leinster and probably ulster too. Certainly the first two though. When you consider the form players in Europe this year you think about ferris, POC, POM, Heaslip, Henry etc.

Leinster certainly aren't overly reliant on NIQs and munster too (BJ aside). Only ulster you could make a case for being overly reliant as without muller and Pienaar we do struggle. We have no backs coach, a defence coach doing our backs coaching (which has simultaneously seen a weakening of our defence) and no real semblance of a game plan or shape in attack.

There is something going massively wrong at a coaching level or communicating ideas to the players because they have looked fairly clueless and hesitant in the first 120 mins of the 6N and kidney has to take the brunt of that. If Ireland can turn it round and grab 3 wins and some much improved performances then kidney deserves credit. It is just very hard to see where they are coming from.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Nolanator »

We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
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amadangomor
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by amadangomor »

Spot on LL.In regard to the dilution of players in France your're talking rubbish UF.The French 22 this weekend has 18 players from 4 clubs,8 from Toulouse,5 from Clermont,3 from S Francais and 2 from Perpinignan.Not a hell of a lot different from the Irish situation.Saying that the French are diluted into 12 teams is stretching things way too far.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by grimoald »

DiscoHips D'Arcy wrote:The omission of Wales is notable too and although their stars are now shifting to France they are primarily drawn from the scarlets, blues and ospreys who you could argue are all poorer teams then Munster, Leinster and probably ulster too.
The make-up of their:

1st XV is 3 Dragons, 4 Scarlets, 5 Blues, 2 Ospreys and One Overseas

Top 22 is 3 Dragons, 5 Scarlets, 6 Blues, 6 Ospreys and 2 Overseas

Whichever way you look at it, it is much more spread than us, where we currently have 7 starters from Leinster (a lot of posters would ideally call for 8 or 9).
amadangomor wrote:Spot on LL.In regard to the dilution of players in France your're talking rubbish UF.The French 22 this weekend has 18 players from 4 clubs,8 from Toulouse,5 from Clermont,3 from S Francais and 2 from Perpinignan.Not a hell of a lot different from the Irish situation.Saying that the French are diluted into 12 teams is stretching things way too far.
They aren't diluted into 12 teams, but we are diluted into 2 and a half.
Last edited by grimoald on Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by grimoald »

Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DiscoHips D'Arcy »

grimoald wrote:
DiscoHips D'Arcy wrote:The omission of Wales is notable too and although their stars are now shifting to France they are primarily drawn from the scarlets, blues and ospreys who you could argue are all poorer teams then Munster, Leinster and probably ulster too.
The make-up of their:

1st XV is 3 Dragons, 4 Scarlets, 5 Blues, 2 Ospreys and One Overseas

Top 22 is 3 Dragons, 5 Scarlets, 6 Blues, 6 Ospreys and 2 Overseas

Whichever way you look at it, it is much more spread than us, where we currently have 7 or 8 starters from Leinster.
The team that beat us in Lansdowne had 5 blues, 1 dragons, 3 scarlets, 4 ospreys and 2 overseas.
We had 3 ulster, 1 overseas, 8 leinster, 3 munster.

They have one more bracket there in that 1 player was drawn from their 4th region whereas ours came from our top region and they have one more overseas player. The make up isn't that different. One thing is clear though. The top three Irish provinces provide 14 men of that team and the top three regions only provide 2 less. Not a significant difference.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by amadangomor »

There is something going massively wrong at a coaching level or communicating ideas to the players because they have looked fairly clueless and hesitant in the first 120 mins of the 6N and kidney has to take the brunt of that. If Ireland can turn it round and grab 3 wins and some much improved performances then kidney deserves credit. It is just very hard to see where they are coming from.
Very frustrating at the minute being an Irish supporter.I think we have the squad to be doing better than we are and the management are failing in getting any sort of consistent level of performance from them or even to have them half looking like there is a coherent strategy when they take the field.Kidney's been there for 3 years ffs and we have gone from mediocre performance to mediocre performance interspersed with the odd great performance in between.

Would rather we had a shite Irish team at the minute and at least give it a lash instead of having plenty of talent available and it being wasted.

Anyway I'm blue in the face going on about it.Let's get behind the team and please uncle Deccie up your f**king game or GTFO
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Armchair_Superstar »

Its sad to see so many spud-pickers wringing their hands and saying we can't win because we don't have the players.

Where did all the Honesty go?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by camroc1 »

Armchair_Superstar wrote:Its sad to see so many spud-pickers wringing their hands and saying we can't win because we don't have the players.

Where did all the Honesty go?
Spot on.

Some of the arguments are laughable and easily demolished, as has been shown above.

Players are confused about his tactics, playing in a way they don't normally.

Kicking away possession is sooooo 2006.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by anonymous_joe »

camroc1 wrote:
Armchair_Superstar wrote:Its sad to see so many spud-pickers wringing their hands and saying we can't win because we don't have the players.

Where did all the Honesty go?
Spot on.

Some of the arguments are laughable and easily demolished, as has been shown above.

Players are confused about his tactics, playing in a way they don't normally.

Kicking away possession is sooooo 2006.
2009, in fairness, Cam.
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DOB
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DOB »

grimoald wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
The current team is also comfortably better off at 1, 6, and arguably better at 8 and 15. Especially with nobody shouting about needing to get Geordie in the side.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by LeinsterLion »

grimoald wrote: There is a reason that was called the golden generation.
It was a lazy journalistic phrase used to highlight the jump in quality from the previous generation. I didn't but the golden talk then and I certainly don't buy it now.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

grimoald wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
I await mention of lifting and pillar defence here for Hayes, his inability to scrummage leads to Ross being a level above as we can secure the setpiece.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by camroc1 »

earl the beaver wrote:
grimoald wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
I await mention of lifting and pillar defence here for Hayes, his inability to scrummage leads to Ross being a level above as we can secure the setpiece.
Yep, it's like the Murrays great defence , but crap at being a scrum half argument isn't it ?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SASP »

camroc1 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
grimoald wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
I await mention of lifting and pillar defence here for Hayes, his inability to scrummage leads to Ross being a level above as we can secure the setpiece.
Yep, it's like the Murrays great defence , but crap at being a scrum half argument isn't it ?
Just returned to rugby after a long absense. Fair bit over weight so got shifted from Hooker to Tighthead. Turns out they are supposed to know how to scrum. did you lads know that?
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DOB
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DOB »

LeinsterLion wrote:
grimoald wrote: There is a reason that was called the golden generation.
It was a lazy journalistic phrase used to highlight the jump in quality from the previous generation. I didn't but the golden talk then and I certainly don't buy it now.
It was always bollocks. The big difference between Ireland in 2001 and Ireland in '97 (4 Lions in the pack!) was BOD, and a more professional attitude to training. There wasn't ahuge gulf in talent in any position except 13.
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Uncle Fester
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Uncle Fester »

Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
What is Reddan but a slightly taller and more brainfart-prone version of Stringer in the good old days?
Eddie also had BOD at the peak of his powers.
And while I despised how Eddie used the backrow, he had a considerably more balanced backrow available to him than we do now.

Don't get me wrong. Kidney should be getting more out of the players and if hasn't turned things around by the end of the season and we only manage 1 win from the next three games (which is possible IMO), then he should go and let a fresh face take over. Coaches are generals and like Napoleon's question to his marshalls asking "if they were lucky", has Kidney lost that old lucky touch of his? Performance this weekend and 2 wins after that, I'd be inclined to let him have next year and see can we build on that.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Nolanator »

grimoald wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
Bollocks to that. Ross is an infinitely better scrummager. And, as a THP that should be the most important factor. I wouldn't say that Ross does that much significantly less than Hayes around the ruck that it outweighs the positives he brings in the scrum.
Sure, he's not an par at lifting. But having one forklift of a player shouldn't be the be all and end all of having a good lineout.
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SASP
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SASP »

Nolanator wrote:
grimoald wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
Bollocks to that. Ross is an infinitely better scrummager. And, as a THP that should be the most important factor. I wouldn't say that Ross does that much significantly less than Hayes around the ruck that it outweighs the positives he brings in the scrum.
Sure, he's not an par at lifting. But having one forklift of a player shouldn't be the be all and end all of having a good lineout.
Cian Healy is a very good lifter also.
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DOB
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DOB »

Fester, Deccie's luck ran out in 2009. Ever since it's been spoof, bluster, and the occasional one-off big performance.
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Uncle Fester
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Uncle Fester »

DOB wrote:
LeinsterLion wrote:
grimoald wrote: There is a reason that was called the golden generation.
It was a lazy journalistic phrase used to highlight the jump in quality from the previous generation. I didn't but the golden talk then and I certainly don't buy it now.
It was always bollocks. The big difference between Ireland in 2001 and Ireland in '97 (4 Lions in the pack!) was BOD, and a more professional attitude to training. There wasn't ahuge gulf in talent in any position except 13.
DOB
You're old enough to remember the absolute dross we had in the backline even in the late 90's. Would Justin Bishop & Matt Mostyn even make a Leinster XV if they were around today? In 2001, we had Hickie & Horgan. The gulf in class is wider than just "BOD, and a more professional attitude to training".
ZappaMan
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by ZappaMan »

Ross better than Hayes? Ah, come on, lads, you're jumping the shark now. He's not even in the same ballpark as Bull.
MunsterMan!!!!!
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by MunsterMan!!!!! »

Nolanator wrote:
grimoald wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
Hayes at his best offered a lot more than Ross in totality.

We are better at 9, but still not great.
Bollocks to that. Ross is an infinitely better scrummager. And, as a THP that should be the most important factor. I wouldn't say that Ross does that much significantly less than Hayes around the ruck that it outweighs the positives he brings in the scrum.
Sure, he's not an par at lifting. But having one forklift of a player shouldn't be the be all and end all of having a good lineout.
I'm surprised at you Nolantator I thought you starting watching rugby long before 2008.
MunsterMan!!!!!
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by MunsterMan!!!!! »

Just a point on the whole coaching thing, there is definitely something wrong, we should be getting more out these players, the inconsistency is what pisses me off!
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